So I am hearing that John is phoning bait companies up and giving them 3 days notice to stop saying their baits have JB Plum in them or whatever. Really?
Very shortsighted. I can't imagine how many bottles of Plum he has sold over recent years just off the back of UB's Plum and Squid baits, well advertised as having the real JB flavour in.
Thoughts?
Very shortsighted. I can't imagine how many bottles of Plum he has sold over recent years just off the back of UB's Plum and Squid baits, well advertised as having the real JB flavour in.
Thoughts?
In reply to Post #1
My thoughts.
Respect to the man, a bait flavour expert that sells unique products that have stood the test of time. Can only be a good thing, bait makers are either using his unique products and his brand as a selling point and making that known (cant see a problem at all there) or pedalling some kind of other plum **** by the sounds of it and calming to be JB?
My thoughts.
Respect to the man, a bait flavour expert that sells unique products that have stood the test of time. Can only be a good thing, bait makers are either using his unique products and his brand as a selling point and making that known (cant see a problem at all there) or pedalling some kind of other plum **** by the sounds of it and calming to be JB?
In reply to Post #1
Even if they do have JB Plum in them?!
Even if they do have JB Plum in them?!
In reply to Post #3
Yeah bit strange if they do use his plum
Yeah bit strange if they do use his plum
I'd ignore it personally legally nothing he can do if its legitimately purchased ? unless hes trademarked the term, however if others have been using the term prior to him applying for it it wont stand up. loads of companies making cell wafters, manilla cork balls and the like.
Either way he seems odd of late, recommending no more than 5 or 10ml hydros per kilo of bait, despite it being well known to be optimal above those levels.
Maybe if he stopped ripping people off with his prices he'd sell more gear. He actually came up to my father at a show and said " ah so its a company with my name sake is it? " - regarding spectrum, thinking I'd named it after him LOL.
Either way he seems odd of late, recommending no more than 5 or 10ml hydros per kilo of bait, despite it being well known to be optimal above those levels.
Maybe if he stopped ripping people off with his prices he'd sell more gear. He actually came up to my father at a show and said " ah so its a company with my name sake is it? " - regarding spectrum, thinking I'd named it after him LOL.
Surely he's only complaining if companies are claiming to be using his product and he knows full well that they've never bought it from him.
I use a few of his flavours in my baits and I've got no problem in advertising the fact as I think they are head and shoulders above a lot of the others out there and people want them.
I spoke to him for some time at the big one as he's recently joined a water I'm a member of, I can't say that at any point in the conversation that it struck me he's gone bat s@@t crazy.
My guess is that he probably feels people shouldn't be lied to and believe they are paying for something but actually getting something else.
I use a few of his flavours in my baits and I've got no problem in advertising the fact as I think they are head and shoulders above a lot of the others out there and people want them.
I spoke to him for some time at the big one as he's recently joined a water I'm a member of, I can't say that at any point in the conversation that it struck me he's gone bat s@@t crazy.
My guess is that he probably feels people shouldn't be lied to and believe they are paying for something but actually getting something else.
In reply to Post #6
It's not that he feels people are lied to, he tried to claim his shrimp was exclusively sourced by him when in fact he bought it from bacarel like everyone else. That's not exactly honest.
It would be very easy for him to simply list ( with their agreement ) the companies he's supplied meaningful amounts of flavour to?
It's not that he feels people are lied to, he tried to claim his shrimp was exclusively sourced by him when in fact he bought it from bacarel like everyone else. That's not exactly honest.
It would be very easy for him to simply list ( with their agreement ) the companies he's supplied meaningful amounts of flavour to?
In reply to Post #7
No, he worked with Bacarel to bring it into the country because he didn't have the right license if I remember right. That's well known and he says as much on his youtube channel. He charges more than Bacarel but he probably doesn't buy in the same quantity.
No, he worked with Bacarel to bring it into the country because he didn't have the right license if I remember right. That's well known and he says as much on his youtube channel. He charges more than Bacarel but he probably doesn't buy in the same quantity.
In reply to Post #8
See message
See message
In reply to Post #9
Unless they are stilling it not much he can do I would say...
Unless they are stilling it not much he can do I would say...
In reply to Post #6
Only one dude really knows what is in all other baits and that is not JB
so he can never know who is using and who not... You can buy jb pruduct in shops, second hand etc... And even buying from him directly doesnt mean it really goes in bait later... Man really has some weird hobbies lately...
Only one dude really knows what is in all other baits and that is not JB
so he can never know who is using and who not... You can buy jb pruduct in shops, second hand etc... And even buying from him directly doesnt mean it really goes in bait later... Man really has some weird hobbies lately...
In reply to Post #6
Surely he's only complaining if companies are claiming to be using his product and he knows full well that they've never bought it from him
Similar thoughts to me
You need 101% trust in a baitmaker, sounds like some are telling lies and not really using his stuff!
And as mentioned, Bacarel
Surely he's only complaining if companies are claiming to be using his product and he knows full well that they've never bought it from him
Similar thoughts to me
You need 101% trust in a baitmaker, sounds like some are telling lies and not really using his stuff!
And as mentioned, Bacarel
In reply to Post #9
Mate, my point isn't that Bacarel weren't/aren't involved, it's that John says he worked with another company to get it.
Mate, my point isn't that Bacarel weren't/aren't involved, it's that John says he worked with another company to get it.
In reply to Post #13
Wasn't it something to do with his DEFRA license expiring and so he couldn't import it into the country in bulk as there was a minimum order requirement, could have got that mixed up as I listened to it on a podcast a while ago might well of been something else.
Wasn't it something to do with his DEFRA license expiring and so he couldn't import it into the country in bulk as there was a minimum order requirement, could have got that mixed up as I listened to it on a podcast a while ago might well of been something else.
In reply to Post #7
Mozzi - he has been honest and said the reasons why he used them as an agent. He has mentioned this publicly where he was not a obliged to.
Mozzi - he has been honest and said the reasons why he used them as an agent. He has mentioned this publicly where he was not a obliged to.
In reply to Post #5
Maybe if he stopped ripping people off with his prices he'd sell more gear.
couldnt agree more mozzi
im also suprised that bacarelexpress can manage to sell anything as there prices are mental shame really as there only 20mins up the road from me
Maybe if he stopped ripping people off with his prices he'd sell more gear.
couldnt agree more mozzi
im also suprised that bacarelexpress can manage to sell anything as there prices are mental shame really as there only 20mins up the road from me
In reply to Post #16
Bacarel prices are very good when you consider that the products are not the watered down tat that you get from pretty much every other supplier.
It's also free post, so doesn't matter where you live.
Bacarel prices are very good when you consider that the products are not the watered down tat that you get from pretty much every other supplier.
It's also free post, so doesn't matter where you live.
In reply to Post #17
I also thought they were decent price wise along with quality.
Mate & I used to buy the old L0-30 from Seagarden by the pail, was very good, they put us on to Bacarel, he went to meet Seagarden at the Excel Centre, had an incredible product which we looked into but pricey!
So much bitterness when bait is discussed.
I also thought they were decent price wise along with quality.
Mate & I used to buy the old L0-30 from Seagarden by the pail, was very good, they put us on to Bacarel, he went to meet Seagarden at the Excel Centre, had an incredible product which we looked into but pricey!
So much bitterness when bait is discussed.
In reply to Post #16
Ripping people off? That would involve him lying about his products. Yes he is expensive but ask anyone who actually knows their bait well and they will tell you that his products are high quality.
As for Bacarels prices that is rubbish - they are competitive with other firms and I would trust their quality as they wholesale to other firms.
Ripping people off? That would involve him lying about his products. Yes he is expensive but ask anyone who actually knows their bait well and they will tell you that his products are high quality.
As for Bacarels prices that is rubbish - they are competitive with other firms and I would trust their quality as they wholesale to other firms.
In reply to Post #19
were all entitled to our opinions and i think there very expensive even if they do give you free shipping
were all entitled to our opinions and i think there very expensive even if they do give you free shipping
I don't post on here that often now although I do pop in and read a few times a week and this topic is exactly why. Some daft posts on here based on hearsay and/or personal opinion with zero facts to back them up 
I can only assume some of you are overcome with the fumes from too much bait making judging by the comments
I can only assume some of you are overcome with the fumes from too much bait making judging by the comments
In reply to Post #19
This is turning into a very interesting thread.......
This is turning into a very interesting thread.......
In reply to Post #21
Totally agree mate
Totally agree mate
In reply to Post #19
Bacarel's products are top notch as is their pricing, no carp taxes being added there unlike other bait companies who rebottle Bacarel's products, stick a fancy label on, say that billy big balls has caught 100 x 50's on it and charge £15 for £1 worth of bacarels product
Bacarel's products are top notch as is their pricing, no carp taxes being added there unlike other bait companies who rebottle Bacarel's products, stick a fancy label on, say that billy big balls has caught 100 x 50's on it and charge £15 for £1 worth of bacarels product
In reply to Post #24
Bacarels products are very good, never once I have received anything that I was remotely concerned about. That's why we have used them for so long. I know where all the hydros come from, I know who imports them and I know who sells them pure.......that's why I buy from them when I need to.
Bacarels products are very good, never once I have received anything that I was remotely concerned about. That's why we have used them for so long. I know where all the hydros come from, I know who imports them and I know who sells them pure.......that's why I buy from them when I need to.
I get the feeling it may be to do with anglers/companies using his “vintage” flavours etc thats the bugbear, He has stated he's totally against it and I can see where he's coming from with this regards... if an angler uses a bait with a vintage flavour, it doesn't produce and said angler blames bait it would reflect badly on John and may impede further sales.... If it was me I'd set up a scheme similar to Haiths Robin Red approved supplier list. Make it a payable scheme and with a visible list to all and it should solve any problems.
In reply to Post #21
I guess that's why a lot of people stopped posting in the bait section.
I guess that's why a lot of people stopped posting in the bait section.
In reply to Post #21
It's identical shrimp but based on trade he's in over 500% mark up. I dread to think what his mark up on the plum / basemixes are
It's identical shrimp but based on trade he's in over 500% mark up. I dread to think what his mark up on the plum / basemixes are
In reply to Post #19
50% correct 😂
50% correct 😂
not to sure were everybody is jumping on the band wagon saying how good Bacarel's products are as nobody as knocked the quality 
all i mentioned was i think there expensive but as the saying goes you get what you pay for
all i mentioned was i think there expensive but as the saying goes you get what you pay for
In reply to Post #30
either buy it or dont...simple really
either buy it or dont...simple really
In reply to Post #31
yep agree on that
yep agree on that
In reply to Post #1
Seems a sensible move to protect his brand. Why would he want his brand name associated with products he has no control over? That's standard brand management in any walk of life.
If someone sells a JB plum pop up that doesn't pop up, or doesn't catch because the flavour levels are wrong his brand becomes associated with a duff product and as he's trying to grow that's a big no no.
I think its actually the opposite to being short sighed its safeguarding his brands future over instant reward.
Seems a sensible move to protect his brand. Why would he want his brand name associated with products he has no control over? That's standard brand management in any walk of life.
If someone sells a JB plum pop up that doesn't pop up, or doesn't catch because the flavour levels are wrong his brand becomes associated with a duff product and as he's trying to grow that's a big no no.
I think its actually the opposite to being short sighed its safeguarding his brands future over instant reward.
In reply to Post #33
I saw a video that said he was releasing some sample packs for the show last weekend and they will be available straight after online. There's nothing on the website yet, wouldn't mind giving bait making a go as it's something I've never done before.
I saw a video that said he was releasing some sample packs for the show last weekend and they will be available straight after online. There's nothing on the website yet, wouldn't mind giving bait making a go as it's something I've never done before.
I'm not actually quite sure what he is trying to achieve if he is doing what the OP said he was doing if that makes sense.
Surely saying your using one of his products in a bait your producing is a good thing surely... I'm confused...
Surely saying your using one of his products in a bait your producing is a good thing surely... I'm confused...
In reply to Post #35
Maybe bait makers should start putting "non of the JB products where used making this bait" on bait labeling...
Maybe bait makers should start putting "non of the JB products where used making this bait" on bait labeling...
In reply to Post #1
Its all hear say and rumour until someone who sells bait for a living comes out and says:-
a) I roll bait with JB plum in it and have been told to stop saying it JB plum.
Or
b) I roll a bait with plum in it and say its a JB plum and have been told to stop saying it
From the little i know about him (mainly videos and a few exchanged emails) he comes across as someone with great integrity and who genuinely does it because he likes it. His profession before he retired would appear to have made its so that he dosen't have to rely on this for his living.
I have never really seen the quality of his products questioned and as with any entrepreneur he can set his prices as he likes... as frenzy said its simple after that you either buy it or you do not.
Its all hear say and rumour until someone who sells bait for a living comes out and says:-
a) I roll bait with JB plum in it and have been told to stop saying it JB plum.
Or
b) I roll a bait with plum in it and say its a JB plum and have been told to stop saying it
From the little i know about him (mainly videos and a few exchanged emails) he comes across as someone with great integrity and who genuinely does it because he likes it. His profession before he retired would appear to have made its so that he dosen't have to rely on this for his living.
I have never really seen the quality of his products questioned and as with any entrepreneur he can set his prices as he likes... as frenzy said its simple after that you either buy it or you do not.
In reply to Post #37
JB is a lovely chap
JB is a lovely chap
I would trust a man who doesn't need to pay his bills by selling bait over one who does.
So much bullsh** out there when it comes to fishing bait. Then it's amplified when needing to make money from it comes into play.
So much bullsh** out there when it comes to fishing bait. Then it's amplified when needing to make money from it comes into play.
John is a very approachable bloke I found .
I bombarded him with questions several years ago whilst making his milk protein mixes as soft pastes for chub fishing .
I bombarded him with questions several years ago whilst making his milk protein mixes as soft pastes for chub fishing .
In reply to Post #40
Agreed, always helpful when I've had dealings with him. His products are priced at a premium and people, including myself, trust them and are willing to pay the extra.
What the mark up is on each product doesn't really bother me. He's done the hard work sourcing and testing and I trust his judgement.
Agreed, always helpful when I've had dealings with him. His products are priced at a premium and people, including myself, trust them and are willing to pay the extra.
What the mark up is on each product doesn't really bother me. He's done the hard work sourcing and testing and I trust his judgement.
In reply to Post #41
He didn't source the shrimp, bacare is the freshest in the country and much cheaper plus free postage, to not use them is foolish
He didn't source the shrimp, bacare is the freshest in the country and much cheaper plus free postage, to not use them is foolish
In reply to Post #42
I use Bacarel for the shrimp, I wasn't referring to the shrimp.
I use Bacarel for the shrimp, I wasn't referring to the shrimp.
In reply to Post #28
No different to all the glucose gluts out there that are just glucose with a bit of colour and flavour, or oversprays that are veg oil with flavour and colour.
Apart from John would tell you what's really in it, rather than say “full of amino's”, etc
Like Joss says, buy it or dont 🤷🏻♀️
No different to all the glucose gluts out there that are just glucose with a bit of colour and flavour, or oversprays that are veg oil with flavour and colour.
Apart from John would tell you what's really in it, rather than say “full of amino's”, etc
Like Joss says, buy it or dont 🤷🏻♀️
In reply to Post #1
Why are you making this post?
Do you have proof of this? If not I suggest you retract your claim and do what's best. Troll's need to be eradicated.
Thanks.
Personally I've never seen any firm claiming to use JB plum in their baits but if they did then they need to be genuine. TBH I can't imagine John doing this......
Why are you making this post?
Do you have proof of this? If not I suggest you retract your claim and do what's best. Troll's need to be eradicated.
Thanks.
Personally I've never seen any firm claiming to use JB plum in their baits but if they did then they need to be genuine. TBH I can't imagine John doing this......
In reply to Post #45
You haven't looked very hard then. :-)
You haven't looked very hard then. :-)
In reply to Post #21
For what it's worth I have actually seen the e mail sent from JB or his representative regarding the situation. It was sent to a company who roll hookbaits only and state what flavours go into each bait. The term he used was “passing on” gave them 48 to remove all pictures on there social media of anything JB related. None of the baits in the range had names that eluded to JB in ANY way. Every post that had a picture of his flavour or a reference to it had to be deleted FACT.
I've used his stuff in the past and spoke to him a few times regarding his range and he is genuinely a nice bloke. I do however think this is a step to far, he is quite happy to source stuff from other suppliers and claim it as his own however if someone rolls a pop up they can't say it has JB plum in it?.
For what it's worth I have actually seen the e mail sent from JB or his representative regarding the situation. It was sent to a company who roll hookbaits only and state what flavours go into each bait. The term he used was “passing on” gave them 48 to remove all pictures on there social media of anything JB related. None of the baits in the range had names that eluded to JB in ANY way. Every post that had a picture of his flavour or a reference to it had to be deleted FACT.
I've used his stuff in the past and spoke to him a few times regarding his range and he is genuinely a nice bloke. I do however think this is a step to far, he is quite happy to source stuff from other suppliers and claim it as his own however if someone rolls a pop up they can't say it has JB plum in it?.
In reply to Post #57
If that's the case then he must have lost his marbles. He's in business to sell products. But he's threatening legal action against anyone who tells people they use them. That's utter madness. It's not like he even sells a finished rolled bait. The only way for anyone to use his products is to either roll it themselves or get someone else to do it.
Can you imagine that in any other line of business? A painter and decorator only works in big houses, so he advertises that he only uses Farrow & Ball paints as he does quality work and thinks their paint is the best. Then Farrow & Ball say we will take legal action if you tell anyone you use our paint!!!
The worlds gone mad. Can you imagine the damage that hookbait company are going to do to John Bakers reputation on their social media now?
If that's the case then he must have lost his marbles. He's in business to sell products. But he's threatening legal action against anyone who tells people they use them. That's utter madness. It's not like he even sells a finished rolled bait. The only way for anyone to use his products is to either roll it themselves or get someone else to do it.
Can you imagine that in any other line of business? A painter and decorator only works in big houses, so he advertises that he only uses Farrow & Ball paints as he does quality work and thinks their paint is the best. Then Farrow & Ball say we will take legal action if you tell anyone you use our paint!!!
The worlds gone mad. Can you imagine the damage that hookbait company are going to do to John Bakers reputation on their social media now?
In reply to Post #58
I agree it's absurd I could maybe understand if he was rolling bait himself but he only sells ingredients. Now you can't even mention that a pop up contains any of his ingredients or flavours. It's absolutely baffling as it was free publicity.
I agree it's absurd I could maybe understand if he was rolling bait himself but he only sells ingredients. Now you can't even mention that a pop up contains any of his ingredients or flavours. It's absolutely baffling as it was free publicity.
In reply to Post #59
You'd have to wonder if it worth anyone bothering to buy his products anymore. If you can't say to a potential customer “I use the finest ingredients that I can source and John Baker flavours” then you might as well just use any old flavour as it's value in your product from a commercial point of view is non existent. Plus they are very expensive compared to other merchants so if there's no commercial gain you might as well just use the cheaper version and make more profit.
Here's the current situation
Company ABC uses JB plum and tells people
Company XYZ uses a cheap imported diluted crap and calls it plum
The consumer has a choice
If that email is correct from now on
Company ABC makes a bait called plum
Company XYZ makes a bait called plum
The consumer now has less information to make an informed choice
This seems a very bizarre business decision from JB Baits
Unless of course he's about to either release his own rolled baits, or do an exclusive deal with someone and he's looking to rid the market of competition.
You'd have to wonder if it worth anyone bothering to buy his products anymore. If you can't say to a potential customer “I use the finest ingredients that I can source and John Baker flavours” then you might as well just use any old flavour as it's value in your product from a commercial point of view is non existent. Plus they are very expensive compared to other merchants so if there's no commercial gain you might as well just use the cheaper version and make more profit.
Here's the current situation
Company ABC uses JB plum and tells people
Company XYZ uses a cheap imported diluted crap and calls it plum
The consumer has a choice
If that email is correct from now on
Company ABC makes a bait called plum
Company XYZ makes a bait called plum
The consumer now has less information to make an informed choice
This seems a very bizarre business decision from JB Baits
Unless of course he's about to either release his own rolled baits, or do an exclusive deal with someone and he's looking to rid the market of competition.
In reply to Post #59
That's a good point.
That's a good point.
In reply to Post #57
That will hold absolutely no sway what so ever if they're genuinely using his products.
I'd love to see him try to take someone to court, it'll be laughed out.
I'd love to see someone send a counter email as it's a huge no no to try and back track on the terms of a lawful sale.
I've rolled 5 of his base mixes for river folks, bang average and certainly not the extortionate price he charges, yet he seems to think the immorality lies with people choosing his products for their business lol
Shame to see this side of it all
That will hold absolutely no sway what so ever if they're genuinely using his products.
I'd love to see him try to take someone to court, it'll be laughed out.
I'd love to see someone send a counter email as it's a huge no no to try and back track on the terms of a lawful sale.
I've rolled 5 of his base mixes for river folks, bang average and certainly not the extortionate price he charges, yet he seems to think the immorality lies with people choosing his products for their business lol
Shame to see this side of it all
In reply to Post #62
Mozzi I like reading your posts and I'm sure you know your stuff but can you please stop taking digs at other bait companies. It's not a good look.
Mozzi I like reading your posts and I'm sure you know your stuff but can you please stop taking digs at other bait companies. It's not a good look.
In reply to Post #63
I called them average.
I called them average.
In reply to Post #64
Yeah all well and good but you are still a average forum member who wont post anything about his own bait company, who seems to know the in's & out's of everyone else's and feels its totally justifiable to take digs at people/ businesses/ products in the same game, who have a built a good reputation over the years.
Yeah all well and good but you are still a average forum member who wont post anything about his own bait company, who seems to know the in's & out's of everyone else's and feels its totally justifiable to take digs at people/ businesses/ products in the same game, who have a built a good reputation over the years.
Just to pick up on a point that Nick made earlier. I've bought JB flavours via his own website, and recently at the big one by physically giving him cash, face to face, in person. At no point during any of those transactions were any restrictions on its use given to me. The only Information given to me was a dosage rate sheet and even that was only advisory. I can't see how he's got the right to take peoples money for a product that he openly sells as for use In making carp bait and then threaten legal action when people advertise that they've used it in carp bait, the very reason he sold it to them in the first place.
In reply to Post #66
You'd think somebody would welcome such provenance for something, technically, anyone can make.
It's like haiths not allowing robin red to be used commercially
You'd think somebody would welcome such provenance for something, technically, anyone can make.
It's like haiths not allowing robin red to be used commercially
In reply to Post #67
And we all know how that turned out.. "almost no one" using it anymore... well to be honest got mor eto do with quality than that statement but still...
And we all know how that turned out.. "almost no one" using it anymore... well to be honest got mor eto do with quality than that statement but still...
In reply to Post #65
Actually I offer a lot of advice in the bait section. The reason I don't mention my company, as I've said before and am getting annoyed having to say to people, is so that I'm not endorsing my own wares, which would be unfair on paying advertisers on this site. You'd only need to read prior posts to know this.
You can brown nose John as much as you want mate but that doesn't make his extortionate prices ( thst you imply he doesn't need for profit ) any less of a rip off.
Actually I offer a lot of advice in the bait section. The reason I don't mention my company, as I've said before and am getting annoyed having to say to people, is so that I'm not endorsing my own wares, which would be unfair on paying advertisers on this site. You'd only need to read prior posts to know this.
You can brown nose John as much as you want mate but that doesn't make his extortionate prices ( thst you imply he doesn't need for profit ) any less of a rip off.
Has anyone actually spoken/contacted John as to his reasons for this?
In reply to Post #70
Don't be silly.....
Don't be silly.....
In reply to Post #71
In reply to Post #69
some people just dont get it mozzi that everybody is entitled to there own opinion so why they get so upset over it is beyond me and you keep on with your help towards comments on this site as i for one enjoy it and definitely learnt from them and still am
some people just dont get it mozzi that everybody is entitled to there own opinion so why they get so upset over it is beyond me and you keep on with your help towards comments on this site as i for one enjoy it and definitely learnt from them and still am
In reply to Post #69
I realise John's flavours are not low cost like some, but they share no similarity to cheap flavours, in their make up and complexity, and I would not class them as extortionate, nor a rip off. Using 5 of his flavours in my hookbaits there is nothing out there that I could replace them with for any money and expect the same results at least.
This recent move does puzzle me however; there must be more facts under the surface if true..
I realise John's flavours are not low cost like some, but they share no similarity to cheap flavours, in their make up and complexity, and I would not class them as extortionate, nor a rip off. Using 5 of his flavours in my hookbaits there is nothing out there that I could replace them with for any money and expect the same results at least.
This recent move does puzzle me however; there must be more facts under the surface if true..
In reply to Post #74
For gods sake don't tell anyone you are using his flavours.
For gods sake don't tell anyone you are using his flavours.
In reply to Post #74
Extortionate is a tub of popups going for more than 10quid Not even if it contains Hutchies or JB´s Jizz 
Extortionate is a tub of popups going for more than 10quid Not even if it contains Hutchies or JB´s Jizz
In reply to Post #74
I'm going to be controversial here, particularly as I really rate his flavours. But to my untrained nose I couldn't tell any difference between his maple and the BAF maple+. Obviously there's a huge difference between a lot of his and the competition.
I'm going to be controversial here, particularly as I really rate his flavours. But to my untrained nose I couldn't tell any difference between his maple and the BAF maple+. Obviously there's a huge difference between a lot of his and the competition.
In reply to Post #77
Can I be a leveller here.
Flavours........they are made by people who have nothing to do with fishing (in most cases)
To source good flavours you need to find the people who make them in the first place
If mr baker gets a bit upset about people using his branded flavours and wants to make it impossible to announce that they are using it, isn't that just counter productive.
No single company makes an entire range of flavours that suit bait making hence why you need to shop around.
I really like John, he's a very intelligent bloke and a nice one too, he knows plenty about making hnv baits and he's certainly found a few nice flavours over the years. But........will his plum flavour turn you or an average bait into Terry Hearn and a super boilie?
I actually think some of the best flavours no longer exist. I say this because I have spent years looking for things and tracing them back to the makers only to find that law changes made them banned in animal feeds years ago. I work with a flavour producer who was behind many of rod Hutchinson's flavours and many many others we all know well, but even he has limits on what can now be reproduced. One major problem with the flavours we use is that they are destroyed by heat! A good flavour is one that isn't degraded in the cooking process. The best flavours came from some very random companies!
John has some good ones for sure but I can't understand why he wouldn't want all the publicity he can get when he sells flavours to the public. And how many people actually make bait these days? I wouldn't want to rely on the sales of flavours in a world where so few make bait.
Can I be a leveller here.
Flavours........they are made by people who have nothing to do with fishing (in most cases)
To source good flavours you need to find the people who make them in the first place
If mr baker gets a bit upset about people using his branded flavours and wants to make it impossible to announce that they are using it, isn't that just counter productive.
No single company makes an entire range of flavours that suit bait making hence why you need to shop around.
I really like John, he's a very intelligent bloke and a nice one too, he knows plenty about making hnv baits and he's certainly found a few nice flavours over the years. But........will his plum flavour turn you or an average bait into Terry Hearn and a super boilie?
I actually think some of the best flavours no longer exist. I say this because I have spent years looking for things and tracing them back to the makers only to find that law changes made them banned in animal feeds years ago. I work with a flavour producer who was behind many of rod Hutchinson's flavours and many many others we all know well, but even he has limits on what can now be reproduced. One major problem with the flavours we use is that they are destroyed by heat! A good flavour is one that isn't degraded in the cooking process. The best flavours came from some very random companies!
John has some good ones for sure but I can't understand why he wouldn't want all the publicity he can get when he sells flavours to the public. And how many people actually make bait these days? I wouldn't want to rely on the sales of flavours in a world where so few make bait.
In reply to Post #77
I believe the proper maple flavours are based on fenugreek extract so they would smell similar.
I like BAF flavours and have had good results with them
I believe the proper maple flavours are based on fenugreek extract so they would smell similar.
I like BAF flavours and have had good results with them
In reply to Post #78
perfectly put
ive consulted for some of the largest flavour manufactures in the world, and when they have a "sale", its amazing to see who turns up from the fishing world
perfectly put
ive consulted for some of the largest flavour manufactures in the world, and when they have a "sale", its amazing to see who turns up from the fishing world
In reply to Post #78
I'm waiting on some samples from a flavour house that as far as I know has nothing or very little to do with angling. I'm expecting them to be complete gash, but like you say unless you look outside of angling how will you ever discover an edge or even something a bit different and interesting
I'm waiting on some samples from a flavour house that as far as I know has nothing or very little to do with angling. I'm expecting them to be complete gash, but like you say unless you look outside of angling how will you ever discover an edge or even something a bit different and interesting
In reply to Post #77
I agree, I cannot distinguish between the JB maple and the BAF one simply by smell. I'm hoping the fish can't as well as my next bait is going to contain the BAF one.
I agree, I cannot distinguish between the JB maple and the BAF one simply by smell. I'm hoping the fish can't as well as my next bait is going to contain the BAF one.
In reply to Post #81
one flavour company i deal with produce over 80 variations of raspberry, all compounded to do different things in different products
one flavour company i deal with produce over 80 variations of raspberry, all compounded to do different things in different products
In reply to Post #81
I once found a really nice fruit flavour from a company who make sweets (makes sense when you think about it) so never be afraid to experiment
I once found a really nice fruit flavour from a company who make sweets (makes sense when you think about it) so never be afraid to experiment
In reply to Post #84
I think what will kill it for me might be the minimum order size requirements. A lot seem happy to supply samples, but then further investigations show they have 20-100kg min orders which obviously isn't gonna be viable for a hobby roller.
I think what will kill it for me might be the minimum order size requirements. A lot seem happy to supply samples, but then further investigations show they have 20-100kg min orders which obviously isn't gonna be viable for a hobby roller.
In reply to Post #85
Yes 5-10k is often a minimum order but quite a few do 500 mil bottles. I often wonder why the big flavour companies don't to 1 litre bottles as it would mean more business for them direct. But they choose to do bigger orders to make mixing worth their time.
Yes 5-10k is often a minimum order but quite a few do 500 mil bottles. I often wonder why the big flavour companies don't to 1 litre bottles as it would mean more business for them direct. But they choose to do bigger orders to make mixing worth their time.
In reply to Post #83
This.
Raspberry flavour will smell different depending on what country you're in as its used for different things, whilst some of them might be nearly identical in make up others wont, most will be made to suit a specific job, if its to flavour for example, a a hard boiled sweet, it will need to be compounded differently to one made for a soft chew sweet.
I tend to work exclusively with the base chemicals in most cases as there is absolutely no way of telling which components of say, a 20 ingredient flavour is actually instigating an investigative reaction from the fish.
butyric acid out performs most flavours by a large margin anyway but it doesnt sell unless you hide the stank with a fruit flavour lol.
This.
Raspberry flavour will smell different depending on what country you're in as its used for different things, whilst some of them might be nearly identical in make up others wont, most will be made to suit a specific job, if its to flavour for example, a a hard boiled sweet, it will need to be compounded differently to one made for a soft chew sweet.
I tend to work exclusively with the base chemicals in most cases as there is absolutely no way of telling which components of say, a 20 ingredient flavour is actually instigating an investigative reaction from the fish.
butyric acid out performs most flavours by a large margin anyway but it doesnt sell unless you hide the stank with a fruit flavour lol.
In reply to Post #87
A lot of the flavour compounds, flavours and essential oils gives little, vague or no response unless combined with some food item.
At least in the tank where the water usually is containing less solubles than lake water.
A lot of the flavour compounds, flavours and essential oils gives little, vague or no response unless combined with some food item.
At least in the tank where the water usually is containing less solubles than lake water.
In reply to Post #87
I've been wondering for a while whether a better approach is to almost ignore the flavour smell for want of a better description and to worry first about the base it's on. For instance, instead of say blending a Krill and Crab flavour that both happen to be on an oil base, because to us those two seem harmonious. Would we be better off blending say an Apple because it's on an EA base with say a Squid because it's on an oil base and then maybe a Vanilla that's on a PG base. Which to us might actually smell like a complete mess but might actually be a more efficient fish attractor due to the different ways that the bases will disperse in water. With the actual “smell” being secondary.
I've been wondering for a while whether a better approach is to almost ignore the flavour smell for want of a better description and to worry first about the base it's on. For instance, instead of say blending a Krill and Crab flavour that both happen to be on an oil base, because to us those two seem harmonious. Would we be better off blending say an Apple because it's on an EA base with say a Squid because it's on an oil base and then maybe a Vanilla that's on a PG base. Which to us might actually smell like a complete mess but might actually be a more efficient fish attractor due to the different ways that the bases will disperse in water. With the actual “smell” being secondary.
In reply to Post #84
i deal with Swizzels Matlow, they compound their own flavours in house for their various sweets, chews, boiled etc.
They wont sell their unique flavours to anyone, although, its quite handy when they need to batch test samples
i deal with Swizzels Matlow, they compound their own flavours in house for their various sweets, chews, boiled etc.
They wont sell their unique flavours to anyone, although, its quite handy when they need to batch test samples
In reply to Post #90
Surprised you've got any teeth left Josh...
Matlow drumsticks Raspberry & Milk. Going to have to go and buy some now..
Surprised you've got any teeth left Josh...
Matlow drumsticks Raspberry & Milk. Going to have to go and buy some now..
In reply to Post #91
I remember I asked Joss many years ago to see if he could blag a small amount of the drumstick flavour for me to make some hookbaits. Absolutely love drumsticks 😋😋
I remember I asked Joss many years ago to see if he could blag a small amount of the drumstick flavour for me to make some hookbaits. Absolutely love drumsticks 😋😋
In reply to Post #90
Any discount codes for online sweet purchases
My misses loves the sour refreshers
Any discount codes for online sweet purchases
My misses loves the sour refreshers
In reply to Post #92
oh sorry mate, head like a sieve.
im up there in a month or so, ill try and remember
oh sorry mate, head like a sieve.
im up there in a month or so, ill try and remember
In reply to Post #94
It was a fair few years ago mate so I'll let you off 😂😂
It was a fair few years ago mate so I'll let you off 😂😂
In reply to Post #95
In reply to Post #1
He has not got a leg to stand on legally IMO.
Nothing against John as had a few helpful chats over the phone over the years. Very helpful and knowledgeable.
He has not got a leg to stand on legally IMO.
Nothing against John as had a few helpful chats over the phone over the years. Very helpful and knowledgeable.
In reply to Post #96
Quite partially to them lemon refresher chews as well Josh if your down there any time soon..
Back onto John baker. Maybe hes bringing out his own range of John baker baits. And doesn't want his name associated with other products out there.
Maybe that's the reason for all these Cease and dissist
Quite partially to them lemon refresher chews as well Josh if your down there any time soon..
Back onto John baker. Maybe hes bringing out his own range of John baker baits. And doesn't want his name associated with other products out there.
Maybe that's the reason for all these Cease and dissist
In reply to Post #98
No legal standing and not known for HNV baits would be a weird avenue to redirect to in my opinion. He'd certainly need it contract rolled in any decent amount as well which is a company using his flavours 😂😂😂
No legal standing and not known for HNV baits would be a weird avenue to redirect to in my opinion. He'd certainly need it contract rolled in any decent amount as well which is a company using his flavours 😂😂😂
In reply to Post #99
But at least said company would of had his permission. I was thinking a range of pops rather than a food bait.
But at least said company would of had his permission. I was thinking a range of pops rather than a food bait.
In reply to Post #100
No one needs his permission? This is where his cease and desist falls flat on its face. And even now, I doubt he could put a pre condition of sale on any goods anyhow.
What's funny is I know for a fact from two people he's sold at trade prices to both of them and they aren't tackle companies they're bait companies. So he knew full well what was going to happen in both those cases.
No one needs his permission? This is where his cease and desist falls flat on its face. And even now, I doubt he could put a pre condition of sale on any goods anyhow.
What's funny is I know for a fact from two people he's sold at trade prices to both of them and they aren't tackle companies they're bait companies. So he knew full well what was going to happen in both those cases.
In reply to Post #99
I've bought bait from a third party roller whose details were passed to me by John himself,using his basemix and flavours.
I've bought bait from a third party roller whose details were passed to me by John himself,using his basemix and flavours.
Has anyone contacted John to ask what it's all about. Surely he would have an explanation if true.
Very little made for actual carp out there that we use in our baits, most stuff is just used from the human & animal feed industries but then put together by anglers following generalised ideas from the late 60's early 70's.
Very little made for actual carp out there that we use in our baits, most stuff is just used from the human & animal feed industries but then put together by anglers following generalised ideas from the late 60's early 70's.
In reply to Post #103
You could say that about loads of stuff, virtually every industry has cross overs
You could say that about loads of stuff, virtually every industry has cross overs
In reply to Post #104
Yes but we're not talking about other stuff are we, we are talking about anglers with generally no qualifications in what they are doing putting together a boiled bait for coarse fish and then often trying to make out they know the ins & outs of this most simple thing like it's difficult?!
We even had someone on a recent thread saying tiger nuts & sweetcorn are short term baits and don't catch big or rarely caught carp. You have posted plenty of stuff with no real answers, just plenty of bluff.
It's embarrassing the way bait gets talked up.
Yes but we're not talking about other stuff are we, we are talking about anglers with generally no qualifications in what they are doing putting together a boiled bait for coarse fish and then often trying to make out they know the ins & outs of this most simple thing like it's difficult?!
We even had someone on a recent thread saying tiger nuts & sweetcorn are short term baits and don't catch big or rarely caught carp. You have posted plenty of stuff with no real answers, just plenty of bluff.
It's embarrassing the way bait gets talked up.
In reply to Post #105
We even had someone on a recent thread saying tiger nuts & sweetcorn are short term baits and don't catch big or rarely caught carp.
Whoever said that ought have a chat with Terry Hearn
We even had someone on a recent thread saying tiger nuts & sweetcorn are short term baits and don't catch big or rarely caught carp.
Whoever said that ought have a chat with Terry Hearn
In reply to Post #106
The person who said it sells boilies for a living.
The person who said it sells boilies for a living.
In reply to Post #107
That explains it
That explains it
In reply to Post #14
Could be something related to REACH. All chemicals now need to be registered, over 1T and it can get costly
Could be something related to REACH. All chemicals now need to be registered, over 1T and it can get costly
In reply to Post #105
No real answers? I get PMs thanking me for the advice lol.
I was referring to where you said that not a lot of what's used is designed for carp I.e drawing on ingredients from other trades.
You seem to be on a mission to find an argument when I was literally finding similarities in other industries.
As for the science being from the 70's some of it definitely is some of it definately isnt. The fact you make such a broad statement shows a lack of research into the subject.
Also, beyond optimising a diet for health and nutrition as well as making it attractive, what else do we need to progress from that?
The only thing I think was lacking in recent years was tge exploration of sustainable marine proteins.
No real answers? I get PMs thanking me for the advice lol.
I was referring to where you said that not a lot of what's used is designed for carp I.e drawing on ingredients from other trades.
You seem to be on a mission to find an argument when I was literally finding similarities in other industries.
As for the science being from the 70's some of it definitely is some of it definately isnt. The fact you make such a broad statement shows a lack of research into the subject.
Also, beyond optimising a diet for health and nutrition as well as making it attractive, what else do we need to progress from that?
The only thing I think was lacking in recent years was tge exploration of sustainable marine proteins.
In reply to Post #110
I just get PM's from you with abuse and let's see a a pic of all this thanks????
I just get PM's from you with abuse and let's see a a pic of all this thanks????
In reply to Post #111
No you don't
No you don't
In reply to Post #112
Can you lot not start arguing AGAIN
its very tiresome
Can you lot not start arguing AGAIN
its very tiresome
dear dear this guys going to get into trouble lmao
https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Pop-Ups-Wafters-or-Dumbells-25-John-Baker-in-3-flavours-/274775996973?hash=item3ff9ecfa2d
https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Pop-Ups-Wafters-or-Dumbells-25-John-Baker-in-3-flavours-/274775996973?hash=item3ff9ecfa2d
In reply to Post #113
I didn't. He's just inferred know abusing him through the messages. Ask Karl to look at it.
I didn't. He's just inferred know abusing him through the messages. Ask Karl to look at it.
In reply to Post #1
I wonder how many baits would have his flavours in if he wasn't promoting them on a podcast or promoting them on his youtube channel?
With the weird trend now of sticking 20 year old ethanols into pop ups and charging silly money, people have obviously jumped on the JB bangwagon now he has put himself "out there" since lockdown. In all honesty, if he hadn't, many people would not have a scooby who he is, especially those under the age of 30. Last time I saw a bottle of his gear advertised, it was when TB still done catalogues.
I wonder how many baits would have his flavours in if he wasn't promoting them on a podcast or promoting them on his youtube channel?
With the weird trend now of sticking 20 year old ethanols into pop ups and charging silly money, people have obviously jumped on the JB bangwagon now he has put himself "out there" since lockdown. In all honesty, if he hadn't, many people would not have a scooby who he is, especially those under the age of 30. Last time I saw a bottle of his gear advertised, it was when TB still done catalogues.
In reply to Post #110
Most of the posts on this forum would generally be classed as broad statements.
It doesn't show a lack of research more a lack of details, so the fact you have even tried to say that about my post is rather silly but that seems the way you post. What research should I have carried out?
I have no mission or desire to find arguments so you are wrong on that as well.
Most of the posts on this forum would generally be classed as broad statements.
It doesn't show a lack of research more a lack of details, so the fact you have even tried to say that about my post is rather silly but that seems the way you post. What research should I have carried out?
I have no mission or desire to find arguments so you are wrong on that as well.
In reply to Post #115
Mate no need to waste his time if you can't remember...
Mate no need to waste his time if you can't remember...
In reply to Post #118
I asked the forum owner to check, I'd be banned if I was abusing people via the messaging system. No need for dishonesty.
I asked the forum owner to check, I'd be banned if I was abusing people via the messaging system. No need for dishonesty.
In reply to Post #117
There is plenty of more recent research into aquatic nutrition if you look. Yes not all is widely avaliable upon first glance but enquire with bait makers / make some enquiries into the industries surrounding aquatics and you can get relevant details. I'd reccomend emailing the likes of coppens, aller Aqua, nishi koi etc and ask if they're happy to share there resource data, most are.
I didn't mean to come across hostile I just get frustrated that people assume we all follow outdated models, or that factual data someone has a expiry to its validity etc
There is plenty of more recent research into aquatic nutrition if you look. Yes not all is widely avaliable upon first glance but enquire with bait makers / make some enquiries into the industries surrounding aquatics and you can get relevant details. I'd reccomend emailing the likes of coppens, aller Aqua, nishi koi etc and ask if they're happy to share there resource data, most are.
I didn't mean to come across hostile I just get frustrated that people assume we all follow outdated models, or that factual data someone has a expiry to its validity etc
In reply to Post #105
Seeing as you are having another dig at me, perhaps read what I said again. I never said that tigers or corn don't catch carp at all, I just said that I have never had a big carp on tigers. Why do you twist everything people say? The forum is a place where people openly offer theories and ideas to help others make choices. Yet every thread always ends up in a slanging match. It's boring now on many levels and I can see why all of the clever former members no longer post. If you don't like something that is said on here that's fine, I bite my lip most days when I can see things that are factually incorrect. Honest people in angling.......they are a rare breed.
Seeing as you are having another dig at me, perhaps read what I said again. I never said that tigers or corn don't catch carp at all, I just said that I have never had a big carp on tigers. Why do you twist everything people say? The forum is a place where people openly offer theories and ideas to help others make choices. Yet every thread always ends up in a slanging match. It's boring now on many levels and I can see why all of the clever former members no longer post. If you don't like something that is said on here that's fine, I bite my lip most days when I can see things that are factually incorrect. Honest people in angling.......they are a rare breed.
In reply to Post #121
Not sure why it has to be classed as a dig when someone disagrees or has a different opinion with another about something that is posted.
I did read what you posted again and it was a bit in your original post [posted below] that I thought was different to what I have found, it wasn't just me as others did comment, your subsequent posts I agree with much of them but those few lines implies that tiger nuts & sweetcorn are short term baits and the biggest more awkward fish always come to boilies.
"Attractor baits can work short term as can tigers or sweetcorn but the biggest and more awkward ones to catch always slip up on a decent bait in the end."
I've read my posts and nowhere have I accused you of saying tiger nuts or corn don't catch carp, that is in your mind, I did agree that no doubt boilies are excellent.
Perhaps you should of said you made an error with the above comments, It's no big deal we all do it.
Not sure why you said I twist everything people say which is untrue and a shame you felt the need to lie.
I have no issues chatting or debating with anyone and have said I'm not interested in arguing, sign of the times that people result to insults, lies and trying to top trump others on most threads.
All I did was disagree with a few lines in a post, the rest I'm fine with but you have taken it the wrong way.
Not sure why it has to be classed as a dig when someone disagrees or has a different opinion with another about something that is posted.
I did read what you posted again and it was a bit in your original post [posted below] that I thought was different to what I have found, it wasn't just me as others did comment, your subsequent posts I agree with much of them but those few lines implies that tiger nuts & sweetcorn are short term baits and the biggest more awkward fish always come to boilies.
"Attractor baits can work short term as can tigers or sweetcorn but the biggest and more awkward ones to catch always slip up on a decent bait in the end."
I've read my posts and nowhere have I accused you of saying tiger nuts or corn don't catch carp, that is in your mind, I did agree that no doubt boilies are excellent.
Perhaps you should of said you made an error with the above comments, It's no big deal we all do it.
Not sure why you said I twist everything people say which is untrue and a shame you felt the need to lie.
I have no issues chatting or debating with anyone and have said I'm not interested in arguing, sign of the times that people result to insults, lies and trying to top trump others on most threads.
All I did was disagree with a few lines in a post, the rest I'm fine with but you have taken it the wrong way.
In reply to Post #120
Agreed about the recent research and updated, newer, different ingredients and I'm all for it because as I posted much of what we do with boilies is still from a long time ago and maybe we haven't progressed as much as we should have in this area?
Agreed about the recent research and updated, newer, different ingredients and I'm all for it because as I posted much of what we do with boilies is still from a long time ago and maybe we haven't progressed as much as we should have in this area?
In reply to Post #121
Bit of an over reaction
Anyone who makes their living selling boiled balls of animal feed trying to tell intelligent people tigers and corn won't catch you big fish is going to get called out, I wouldn't take it personally.
Bit of an over reaction
Anyone who makes their living selling boiled balls of animal feed trying to tell intelligent people tigers and corn won't catch you big fish is going to get called out, I wouldn't take it personally.
Typical bait post veering massively off course again 😴
In reply to Post #122
One of the curses of speaking online is a written word is read differently to how a verbal conversation will flow.
Where Gavin said “always slip up on a decent bait in the end” my interpretation and it could be wrong, was that whilst other baits can catch the same fish, it's a reliable bet that big fish slip up on boilies.
In thst case I'd concur, that whilst corn and tigers will trip up big wary fish, they're more often caught on boilies. Indeed if boilies weren't being used carp wouldn't be tge size they are to begin with. Which is anything but natural for their environment.
So I believe big fish treat boilies will less caution due to familiarity through feasting, however other things can catch them out of curiosity / grazing.
Just my two pennies, much like the grand Mac daddy of carping, sir terry, I tip my baits a lot with maize so who knows really 🤣
One of the curses of speaking online is a written word is read differently to how a verbal conversation will flow.
Where Gavin said “always slip up on a decent bait in the end” my interpretation and it could be wrong, was that whilst other baits can catch the same fish, it's a reliable bet that big fish slip up on boilies.
In thst case I'd concur, that whilst corn and tigers will trip up big wary fish, they're more often caught on boilies. Indeed if boilies weren't being used carp wouldn't be tge size they are to begin with. Which is anything but natural for their environment.
So I believe big fish treat boilies will less caution due to familiarity through feasting, however other things can catch them out of curiosity / grazing.
Just my two pennies, much like the grand Mac daddy of carping, sir terry, I tip my baits a lot with maize so who knows really 🤣
In reply to Post #126
I've used hemp, tigers, corn etc loads over the years. And boilies.
I've caught bigguns on them all but there's no denying that time and time again the big girls fall for a quality boiled bait.
I've used hemp, tigers, corn etc loads over the years. And boilies.
I've caught bigguns on them all but there's no denying that time and time again the big girls fall for a quality boiled bait.
In reply to Post #126
BUT and its a VERY BIIIIIG BUT
Boillies are only one part of a very large puzzle
bait isnt the B and end all of catching carp, its merely the end result
BUT and its a VERY BIIIIIG BUT
Boillies are only one part of a very large puzzle
bait isnt the B and end all of catching carp, its merely the end result
In reply to Post #128
never said they weren't, but there is no puzzle for the massive weight gains its simply anglers piling in highly calorific high protein food, and fish eating excess amounts. king car seldom naturally reach the sizes we see now.
The only time we dont see it is those horrendous euro aqua carp, poor things made to bloat being almost force fed huge amount of high fat bait. the current crop will be dead is 5 or 10 years bless the poor buggers.
never said they weren't, but there is no puzzle for the massive weight gains its simply anglers piling in highly calorific high protein food, and fish eating excess amounts. king car seldom naturally reach the sizes we see now.
The only time we dont see it is those horrendous euro aqua carp, poor things made to bloat being almost force fed huge amount of high fat bait. the current crop will be dead is 5 or 10 years bless the poor buggers.
In reply to Post #129
Don't think you can claim carp wouldn't get so big without boil lies. Maybe in some of the over stocked over fed UK mud holes. What about the big carp caught on the continent in the past and now that don't see the bait constantly piled in. Carp bigger than the UK record have been caught from rivers and lake in Europe that have seen very little if any boiled baits. Climate change must have help them grow bigger with milder winters, longer summers all leading to more natural food and longer feeding seasons. Not a bait guru myself, quite the opposite but a friend of mine is obsessed with it so I trust him to supply me with all I need and you will never see him on social media and looking at this thread I can see why.
Don't think you can claim carp wouldn't get so big without boil lies. Maybe in some of the over stocked over fed UK mud holes. What about the big carp caught on the continent in the past and now that don't see the bait constantly piled in. Carp bigger than the UK record have been caught from rivers and lake in Europe that have seen very little if any boiled baits. Climate change must have help them grow bigger with milder winters, longer summers all leading to more natural food and longer feeding seasons. Not a bait guru myself, quite the opposite but a friend of mine is obsessed with it so I trust him to supply me with all I need and you will never see him on social media and looking at this thread I can see why.
In reply to Post #130
Invariably there will be exceptions, but unless its a really favourable biomass there just isnt the natural food around to sustain such weights in most cases. yes you could say cassein for example has huge carp, but it also had a unique set of circumstances and that diet is supplement albeit not to the same extent, with anglers baits.
Ive often wondered if the density of community surrounding these places is key to growth rates, there is huge amount of human food waste going into them, when I visited family as a child they had a lovely big old country house type building on the river blavet in france and all veg scraps, meat, milk, bread etc that wasnt good for humans went in.
Im convinced some carp in uk urban canals are familier with the odd gingsters pasty and special brew
Invariably there will be exceptions, but unless its a really favourable biomass there just isnt the natural food around to sustain such weights in most cases. yes you could say cassein for example has huge carp, but it also had a unique set of circumstances and that diet is supplement albeit not to the same extent, with anglers baits.
Ive often wondered if the density of community surrounding these places is key to growth rates, there is huge amount of human food waste going into them, when I visited family as a child they had a lovely big old country house type building on the river blavet in france and all veg scraps, meat, milk, bread etc that wasnt good for humans went in.
Im convinced some carp in uk urban canals are familier with the odd gingsters pasty and special brew
In reply to Post #129
I think that you are right in that most waters are 'overstocked' and rely on anglers baits to survive, although I do know of a few waters where bait is 'tried' rather than relied on.
There are a few waters where fish growth is pretty much on natural food, a water producing a 50lb common was unfished for years, and some fish simply have never been caught over bait, or seen at anytime except spawning.
Then you have for example, Alton Water, 375acres(?) where bait can't be the main food source, yet VS stockies have gone from doubles to high 20's in a few years.
I think at times bait reliant fish may actually not achieve best weights due to regular repeat captures!
Years ago I heard on an average water the best stock level for all species was 800lb per acre. Obviously because of natural food stocks, better or worse, this can only be an average.
We are using attractors in baits, soluble solids, flavours, food liquids, not all are the same, to try to get carp to investigate, or feed on it.
I think that you are right in that most waters are 'overstocked' and rely on anglers baits to survive, although I do know of a few waters where bait is 'tried' rather than relied on.
There are a few waters where fish growth is pretty much on natural food, a water producing a 50lb common was unfished for years, and some fish simply have never been caught over bait, or seen at anytime except spawning.
Then you have for example, Alton Water, 375acres(?) where bait can't be the main food source, yet VS stockies have gone from doubles to high 20's in a few years.
I think at times bait reliant fish may actually not achieve best weights due to regular repeat captures!
Years ago I heard on an average water the best stock level for all species was 800lb per acre. Obviously because of natural food stocks, better or worse, this can only be an average.
We are using attractors in baits, soluble solids, flavours, food liquids, not all are the same, to try to get carp to investigate, or feed on it.
To my mind boilies have played a huge part in the increase in average weights across the country. Go back thirty years and a 40lb fish was a rare monster. Guys now have several in a season. Now granted some of that will be due to the selective breeding of the last decades, but instead of the country having a few 40s, there's literally thousands of them now. I don't think we would have seen such large gains as an average if we had all fished exclusively with particles for the last three decades.
Carp just love boilies. I was fortunate to be one of six anglers who were given permission to fish an untouched estate lake about ten years ago. Those fish had never seen an angler let alone a boilie. First year I think there was something like 90 fish caught by us. As far as I'm aware every one came to a boilie. I tried tigers for some time and couldn't buy a bite on them.
Carp just love boilies. I was fortunate to be one of six anglers who were given permission to fish an untouched estate lake about ten years ago. Those fish had never seen an angler let alone a boilie. First year I think there was something like 90 fish caught by us. As far as I'm aware every one came to a boilie. I tried tigers for some time and couldn't buy a bite on them.
In reply to Post #133
Also the amount used today is a different ball game ,
Also the amount used today is a different ball game ,
In reply to Post #134
People would definitely not be piling in these silly amount of boilies nowadays, if they had to roll them themselves, or on the bank.
An average 24 hours angling would be a 4, 6 or 12 egg mix maximum. LOL
Only When Premier fishmeals we're hammering everywhere, did heavy bait rolling really take off, 12, 18, 24 eggs per day were not uncommon.
People would definitely not be piling in these silly amount of boilies nowadays, if they had to roll them themselves, or on the bank.
An average 24 hours angling would be a 4, 6 or 12 egg mix maximum. LOL
Only When Premier fishmeals we're hammering everywhere, did heavy bait rolling really take off, 12, 18, 24 eggs per day were not uncommon.
Genetics, breeders, stocking policy, fishery management all have a huge part to play in the numbers of forty pound fish in the U.K. today. Arguably those factors are the most important part. When it comes to bait, it depends on the venue. Drop a few of the more recent Simmo fish into a naturally rich, hardly fished venue and most will grow to big sizes on neglect. The whole thing is driven by supply and demand, of course, as the game has gone through such astonishing changes during the last 25-30 odd years.
As for boilies picking off the big odd ‘uns... What was it the BM was first caught on again? All too easy to generalise... I stuck around 450kg of boilie into a venue with one or two of “that” type of fish, over a 14 month period - never caught ‘em, no-one did, and I had most of the rest, some multiple times. I'm of the view that when the really rare (or once/first time) ones are finally caught, there are a hell of a lot of factors that have to align, bait being just one of them. To attribute it purely to bait isn't really understanding why it happens. In fact, I'm not that sure we can understand why it happens. And some of them simply aren't ever caught, bait irrelevant, end of.
I can think of at least three fish alive today that grew huge on almost certainly zero bait. There are countless stories of these types of fish in many venues, over many years; seen, yet never caught, irrelevant of bait.
Some things we will never know with any level of certainty.
Dogma is the enemy of pragmatism. Step back, take the blinkers off, see the whole picture, glimpse the blurred edges...
As for boilies picking off the big odd ‘uns... What was it the BM was first caught on again? All too easy to generalise... I stuck around 450kg of boilie into a venue with one or two of “that” type of fish, over a 14 month period - never caught ‘em, no-one did, and I had most of the rest, some multiple times. I'm of the view that when the really rare (or once/first time) ones are finally caught, there are a hell of a lot of factors that have to align, bait being just one of them. To attribute it purely to bait isn't really understanding why it happens. In fact, I'm not that sure we can understand why it happens. And some of them simply aren't ever caught, bait irrelevant, end of.
I can think of at least three fish alive today that grew huge on almost certainly zero bait. There are countless stories of these types of fish in many venues, over many years; seen, yet never caught, irrelevant of bait.
Some things we will never know with any level of certainty.
Dogma is the enemy of pragmatism. Step back, take the blinkers off, see the whole picture, glimpse the blurred edges...
In reply to Post #135
Spot on.
Spot on.
In reply to Post #136
Lots of thought has gone out of carp fishing, quite often my jobs done before I've got there
Lots of thought has gone out of carp fishing, quite often my jobs done before I've got there
In reply to Post #138
Thought. Or lack of thinking, experimentally tying things.
Bit like the dying art of the home bait roller really. Rising ingredient costs, only the buzz of catching on your own bait and knowing exactly what is in it, and how fresh it is.
It is all done for you.
Ready rolled, proven carp catchers so easily available nowadays.,
Which is why I find this whole John Baker thing odd, unless of course companies are claiming to use the real JB flavour, and are instead using a cheap copy.
Thought. Or lack of thinking, experimentally tying things.
Bit like the dying art of the home bait roller really. Rising ingredient costs, only the buzz of catching on your own bait and knowing exactly what is in it, and how fresh it is.
It is all done for you.
Ready rolled, proven carp catchers so easily available nowadays.,
Which is why I find this whole John Baker thing odd, unless of course companies are claiming to use the real JB flavour, and are instead using a cheap copy.
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