Interesting interview on the Korda thinking tackle podcast by Tom Maker. Might put a few of Rumours to bed that we're circulating around him at the time, He's definitely opened up a can of worms as it were. Worth a watch / listen.

In reply to Post #1
As one of the doubters I thought he came across brilliantly. Timing, emotions and sentiment were spot on. It's amazing the herd mentality (which I am not innocent) and absolutely fair play to him.

Worth a listen and a few life lessons from Tom.

In reply to Post #2
Does make me wonder how these Rumours originate sometimes. Tom mentioned that his ex missus kept horses. The rumour was she was a Vet. Chinese wispers go into overdrive people put two and two together and come up with five..

Be interesting to see if anyone else linked with these rumours comes out to squash them. Or does mud stick..

In reply to Post #3
Just because one person may have been unfairly tarnished doesn't mean the whole thing was made up, far from it.

Watch Kenny Gates on Kev Ellis video which gives great insight into it.

In reply to Post #3
Some (one) of the others I have heard far too much from people who have directly witnessed things. Sure its all still rumours, but it's a little bit more than just online nonsence. Tom Makers name I've never heard anything about him and hormones other than online.

Wonder who his friends were that he is talking about that turned against him.

Tom actually mentions some other behaviors in the interview that I have witnessed many times in wild fish that has made me suspect something is happening naturally that we aren't aware of - a chemical release (pheromones or hormones) or some sort of communication between fish specific to feeding that can be found elsewhere in nature, in other species.

I think when the news broke about hormones, people just assumed it was the anglers who were catching loads that were using it & Tom fell into that group. I was under the impression that it was more prevalent on the Continent & there are some very successful anglers who used to make a decent wedge from their winnings that won't fish matches anymore because they can't be sure others aren't using them.

I liked that he spoke about the trolling. Carp anglers love a bandwagon - it's tribalism in its purest form & is an evolved trait in humans that social media takes advantage of but that doesn't make it right.

there are many occasions where it has gone too far but in others, it's been justified IMO - Does anyone remember a certain Mick Perry & the original fish with the stars events at Chilham? A case where someone was "hounded out of town" appropriately.

Some trolls/members are worse than others & it's easy to see who they are. They seem to forget that anyone/everyone can read their words, even if they don't interact.

Carp fishing is a pretty small group of people in the grand scheme of things & I do not doubt that their online behaviour will eventually come back to bite them - refused tickets, deals on kit etc.

In reply to Post #7
Carp anglers love a bandwagon - it's tribalism in its purest form & is an evolved trait in humans that social media takes advantage

I think that's a bit of a sweeping gereralisation tbh. I'm confident in the knowledge that their are many Carp Anglers who won't really get involved with social media or the crap that's spouted on it

In reply to Post #8
but bandwagons aren't restricted to social media & negative comments

the expand to many positive things including fashion, application of ideas, things we buy, how we look etc

some are good - insisting on the best fish care is an example.

In reply to Post #9
I totally agree, I was simply adressing one point without trying to digress which is so easily done in my case
I try my best to steer clear of all that social media stuff, even facts don't seem totally relavent anymore to 'the mobs',

We won't ever know the full truth. Can't have been nice for him if he wasn't involved. But just because he wasn't involved doesn't make every one else innocent. I think we've all heard of sudden spectacular results from waters where it seems totally out of character for that particular water.

There's often no smoke without fire. These rumours don't just start from nothing. They need to be credible to gain traction. Someone at some point must have told someone about Hormones and the cats got out the bag. Even if Tom Maker was unfairly involved in it doesn't mean it's not a thing.

In reply to Post #11
Rumours dont start from nothing, usually its a small number of jelous anglers.

All these rumours and since then.... not 1 single scrap of evidence has been shown. Saying 'i have been informed by a reliable source of some goings on" etc etc, just fuels the fire with no actual evidence. Rumours of this nature tend to start by a small number of very jelous anglers and then just snowball out of control.

People look at the results Tom gets and cant get their head around it, they try themselves and fail to replicate it, therefore there must be some sort of magic potion, it cant possibly the years of dedicated graft he puts in, knowledge and experience he has aquired. "Well i put in the same and i have the experience?" No you dont, you are actually miles off!

Tom comes across as a really smart, switched on lad and what he went through must have been aweful, especially when the accusations are not credible. I think people need to have a little stop and think before they start speculating rumours

In reply to Post #12
I have gone full circle on this dude. I actually didn't think he was guilty in the first place, I just didn't actually take to him, in terms of his media presence and personality.

But watching his podcast last night, I felt for him and what he had to endure. I'm not that trusting a person and someone's word normally isn't enough, so for me to feel the way I do now means he is telling the truth or he is one f@@ked up bloke and deserves an Oscar!!

As someone rightly pointed out, all we learned is that he wasn't part of it, but I'm convinced others were....

In reply to Post #13
I don't think it helped when he showed us what he was using and said he added "something extra"
thinking back, he was secretly using worms for years before telling anyone.

In reply to Post #14
Are you getting mixed up with the other bloke who said that? The not innocent one

In reply to Post #1
Korda; 'We'll have you, if you clear your name'.

I've never seen anyone so obviously guilty. He made no secret of it to his friends, even asking advice when he got ill from it. Like he said, it's not illegal, but I've seen to way 50yr old carp behave after it's been used and its not pretty. His only course of action is to deny it and get rid of the folk who know the truth. It's no coincidence that worms and corn are the best carriers.

I can't believe you lot are falling for it. He makes a dreadful job of denying it as well. Just watch him and listen..Wrong en.

In reply to Post #16
He admitted to getting ill from using it?

In reply to Post #17
He never actually says he didn't use it. Ample opportunity but still couldn't actually say the words. The usual tripe of a liar, 'would I really do it when I have so much to lose'. And he should know by now it's not injected, it's added to bait, like I said, worms.

In reply to Post #18
To be honest, when they were all relatively open about using it I can see why they did. It must be horrible to be under that much pressure to catch and keep catching and hugely financially profitable for the sponsoring bait companies. They took the Mickley though, sometimes catching ALL the fish in the lake. If you've looked at someone's results in the last 3yrs and thought, 'nah' then you are probably right. Happened recently on a water I know..New angler, worms and corn fished in a way that just doesn't catch fish and he caught a number of very wary old large carp. The fish acted very strangely for a couple of weeks afterwards and nothing was caught.

Human beings do strange and extreme things when it comes to two things, self preservation and money.

Tom Maker is a liar because without the above he is nothing.

Fortunately for him there are enough simple arse kissers in this game to keep him afloat........for now.



Karma.

In reply to Post #20
Some of the well known anglers won't enter competitions because they know they have no chance, we know who is going to win before the draw, it doesn't seem to matter what swim they are in.
Very dodgy indeed 🤔

In reply to Post #20
Korda Karma.

In reply to Post #21
Which well known anglers? Is that really the case or are they just saying that? Perhaps they dont want to fish them because they know the competition is too strong and they want to preserve their status? Just a thought.

Just listened to the whole podcast. I find the whole worm thing very odd, he's almost talking as if he invented chopped worms


I've literally owned a pair of scissors that are specifically designed for chopping up worms for the last 20 years, and im sure they were around long before. . Who on earth are these other anglers who think he was 'clever' for 'comming up with the idea' of using them in a spod mix.?

In reply to Post #3
Is this on Youtube? Link?

In reply to Post #24


Who on earth are these other anglers who think he was 'clever' for 'comming up with the idea' of using them in a spod mix.?


At a guess, the yoof of today who go straight into Carp Angling, become master anglers of unlimited knowledge yet have never entertained the idea of other species and view the odd one they catch Bream/Tench etc with utter distain!

While the above is true of a lot of younger CARP anglers, it is meant tongue in cheek and obv
doesn't represent the whole (before I get pulled up).

In reply to Post #19
From your posts, am I getting the feeling you dont believe him..

You fish wives have too much time on your hands...

In reply to Post #29
A post only a alpha male could make :-p....you're as irrelevant in this day and age as us fish wives

Ti's a joke.

In reply to Post #29
I wonder how much Korda know. The interview seems like a carefully orchestrated operation. I'd love the Behaviour Panel to take a look at this. His rambling and redirection was allowed and his presentation wasn't challenged, why should it, HE'S ON THE BOOKS!

In reply to Post #31
I found it a bit strange during the interview that there was so much focus upon supposedly injecting some product into the fish. My understanding was that the accusations related to some kind of product being used in the bait.

That being said, however, he is clearly an insanely, good angler, as were the other chaps who had the finger pointed at them. I would hate to think that to some extent they have been driven from the sport by wild speculation.

Yes, there are people who still do not believe them and I watched the recent Kenny Gates interview, which suggested that hormones have been detected in the water at some of these venues, but my own suspicion is that these guys did not cheat and are just incredibly talented anglers. Match Angling as always been subject to accusations and jealousy. Money is involved here. It's a different type of angling that I would do for these very reasons.

In reply to Post #31
Where is the evidence though? Has anyone actually got any legitimate evidence? At the time and since then.... no one has been able to provide any? He was right in that the interview would no doubt reignite the fire again..... but where is the actual evidence of any wrong doing? Its all just tales and whispers, my mate said this blah blah blah.... he heard this from his uncles, brothers hairdresser who's got his dog from someone who knows a a guy who works in a chip van who was speaking to a random guy that he was using it. Sounds like complete fabrication to me by people who are jelous and/or just cant grt their head around how someone can be so good at their sport.

In reply to Post #33
Exactly my thoughts, I've always been of the opinion innocent until proven guilty and whilst many can speculate no one has as you say actually come forward with any actual proof/hard evidence.

The reality is he's obviously a good young angler with an influence from a match style background with the one benefit most dont have TIME, he's mainly fishing busy day ticket waters crammed full of large carp for generally 48/72hr sessions on a weekly basis and getting accused/criticized when he has some large hits of using hormones, he's fishing practically for half the year I would hope he would achieve some big hits quite often.
Given the venues Tom chooses to fish it's probably all been started by some sap sat opposite with his 24 pack and a pocket full of the best homegrown cabbaged out watching him from the opposite or next swim along spank them out while said angler is sat there wondering if he wants some chocolate or crisps next after pub chucking 3 singles out and pondering if it's time for an afternoon siesta.

In reply to Post #34
I like most have no inside information on this subject, however I suppose if Tom was using something like hormones in his fishing and doing very well from it, then once he stopped surely there would be a dip in his form / catch results.

If he continues to outfish most people then surely that's vindication that he's just an exceptional angler, with an edge, ie worms.

Unfortunately for him mud sticks and most people will still wonder one way or the other.

In reply to Post #39
Are you on his hormones

In reply to Post #31
The interview reminded me of Prince Andrew. All that was missing was I can't sweat comment. To be honest if I was in his shoes I would have just kept silent.

someone get the polygraph out!

In reply to Post #40
Bl00dy tablet driving me nuts ! Keeps on posting multiple times
Is there anyway of deleting a thread ?

In reply to Post #45
I noticed that after the site came back after the three months it was down it seem real slow after posting submit so I'd push it again and even a third time being impatient then get the post three times, just press submit once and wait a good while now until it pops up on the thread it's taking a lot longer now for this to happen.

In reply to Post #46
I'm having the same thing happen

In reply to Post #46
What he says
Press submit and be patient.
I'm sure Karlos will sort at some point.

Edit
Just timed this post. It took 10 seconds to appear

I know some pod the podcasters who raised awareness on this. They never named anyone in that pod. Never a hint. But they had direct messages from known anglers telling them to withdraw it from online platforms. It got ugly.

This concreted it for me. Why ask them to remove something if your name is not attached to it and you're innocent? They're not innocent.

Tom came across well. Unfortunately some things he mentioned raised an eyebrow though and worms are a good carrier for the substance.

Worms being injected ???

In reply to Post #1
I'm still on the fence with it. That nash Kev Hewitt interview really didn't help. I've never seen anyone look so caught out before.

I was also fishing a bcac qualifier on St johns when Wayne mansford and ryan need were absolutely hauling and we're 100% hiding something (unlikely pescaviva sweetcorn like they said). Despite battering everyone, the fish were 100% acting strangely and did so for 5-7 days afterwards. The same happened farlows after their match there where the same thing happened and they destroyed everyone from an unfancied peg.

That being said, I changed my view a bit last year when fishing a match at Abbey lakes, I saw what 150 kilo of chopped worm could do. They pair purposely fished a bay so that the fish could be held there. They caught nothing for 2 days, then the pair at the entrance to the bay had about 12 fish in a day then the lake shut up shop apart from their peg where they had 60+ fish in 4 days. I've never seen two spots chirn up like these were. The pair at the entrance to that bay only caught as the vast majority of the stock moved in past them

In reply to Post #51
150kg of chopped worms

I've been using worms within my carp fishing for fifty years, just can't believe I've been using substandard worms all that time. They've caught me loads of carp, but I've never ever witnessed a reaction in a swim like Tom gets. Definitely need a new work dealer.

In reply to Post #52
Yep! They took 100 with them, ran out and had another 50 delivered on the Wednesday!

In reply to Post #54
I struggle to nip the tip off one when I'm perch fishing. Ploughing into a bucket full of 150kg of the poor things is like something out of a horror movie. The bcac scene ain't for me. Worms or no worms.

In reply to Post #54
The worm thing may just be a cover, and a way to apply the actual hormone stuff.
Everyone else sees it working and they explain it away as mass liquidised worms.

Tom said in the podcast they don't work on huge amounts didn't he. Tbh he said a few contradictory things.

Fish grow big without getting caught by only eating bait on the drop. But fishing zigs won't catch big fish as all the big fish are eating bait on the bottom

In reply to Post #32
Well said midland man , totally agree with you. A lot of jealousy in this sport of ours unfortunately. You get the elite in every sport , does this mean they are cheats ? I think not .

In reply to Post #52
150kg of worms must cost a fortune! Must have been considered a worthwhile expense with a very strong likelihood of it resulting in them winning the match.
What an absolutely, unpleasent form of carp angling, the match scene is.

In reply to Post #58
Not sure TBH. Something going on in a small chummy circle but also believe its mostly mass baiting with worms etc beyond normal non sponsored guys realms and pockets. Willy worms must be cashing it in!! Tackle shops probably sell more live bait to carp anglers than match and pleasure in some shops.
The worm thing same as the maggot was done years ago but has become popularised.

The likes of John Bannister and even before were fishing with them rather than it was a novel aside.

In reply to Post #58
You do get those who will push it too far to achieve results.
Look at the likes of Lance Armstrong and Ben Johnson, just 2 from a very long list of professional cheats.
When money is involved, some will stop at nothing to achieve their goals - ethical/legal or not!

In reply to Post #59
any form of match angling is unpleasant 😂

In reply to Post #61
There are hundreds of fantastic anglers Out there and they don't turn up everytime they go fishing and catch half the fish in the lake . I'm sure it's more than a few worms in a spod mix.
Shame on the sponsors of them. Buy the sound of it . It's been common knowledge to a fair few for a long time As I said previously why do you have to clear your name of something you havnt done.
Maybe the people named in the first place would like to fish with bait given to them on the bank. As a challenge.

In reply to Post #61
Please edit and add Man City

In reply to Post #64

I don't know if it was worms or hormones although I do have an opinion.

What I really think despicable is that bait firms were bragging that the captures made by thier stars were down to their great baits...when all along they were not using these baits at all.

You might say they were only cheating the gullible but I'm sure they sold a lot of bait to beginners, etc with there advertising...and not one of them has stepped forward and said they are sorry and admit all those fish were caught on worms, at best, or with hormones at worst.

In reply to Post #66
That happens all the time. Spoke to an angler the other day and he told me when he caught a special U.K. 50 a number of years back, loads of bait companies asked him to say it was on there bait and they would look after him with money and free bait. Luckily he was genuine and told them to jog on.

On the whole hormone thing im on the fence with it. There was something out there as results were un heard of but by whom exactly I wouldn't like to say.

150 kg of worms at Willies prices of £19.99 per kg = £2998.50 ..... Gosh...

And there is a famous worm quote,

''If man makes himself a worm he must not complain when he is trodden on. ... ''

Regards Tad.

In reply to Post #68
If you went for the large Dendrobeanas your looking at £ 3592.50 for 150 kg ...

In reply to Post #69
Don't think size matters when they're being smashed into a bloody pulp.

In reply to Post #67
I seem to remember Nash giving a worm to someone in the 90's and they caught Herman out of Warmwell.
It's not documented now but at the time Nash claimed it was caught on Nashbait as he had supplied the worm!

Forum's slow again 🫤

How the **** will Korda manage to market a product beginning with ‘W'

In reply to Post #73
Krushed Worms

In reply to Post #73
DP

In reply to Post #31
“The Behaviour Panel”... oh yeah that all seeing eye that presides over a Hobby for a very small amount of Men in the UK...

I really think you need something else in your life other than just Carp Fishing!

In reply to Post #68
And most of that will be soil.. But isn't that where most of the Attaction lies...

In reply to Post #76
Oops

In reply to Post #76
There's lots of none events in the game that base their posts on SM based on what they struggle to read on places like this, **** knows why but they think a like and a kiss arse post puts them closer to a bit of free bait or a discount on their next tackle order
Generally they're lifes none achievers so 50p off a KG and 10% off a terminal tackle order makes them think they're the nect Terry Hearn with their YouTube site.

Personally i sit back and laugh, they'll never be in the swim next to me after 60's because they just dont understand how this game is really played at the highest level.

In reply to Post #76
I hadn't heard about this until this week, I listened to the podcast and thought it was a bit bonkers that a fella has been accused of using hormones to catch a carp...

The fishing Tom Maker does is so far removed from the fishing I do it's almost a different past time in all honesty, I have no interest in his fishing and he'd probably have none in mine either.

Some of the posts on this thread accusing people of all sorts of shenanigans are unbelievable to me, the fact that only one of them has actually called anyone out and there is no real detail about what is actually being done to “cheat” tells me all I need to know. Basically that the people posting don't have any facts, don't really have a clue what they're talking about and are just jumping on a vicious band wagon.

I mean this is Carp Match Fishing in England not the Tour De France fellas.

In reply to Post #79
“...they just dont understand how this game is really played at the highest level.”



What are you on about

In reply to Post #32
I've just watched this video... isn't it interesting how we humans take different things from what we see and hear.

From my understanding he says the professor told him they can if needed test the water for trace elements of DNA or something along those lines, not that they actually had tested.

Quite from a few minutes later though “put it in perspective” it's just a bit of Carp Angling that nobody outside told Carp Angling cares about.

In reply to Post #79
Sorry, don't understand what you mean?

In reply to Post #66
I don't know if it was worms or hormones

Not seen this podcast nor am I referring to the bloke in it but I would be 100% confident in saying some people have been cheating, it is nailed on

Different carp scene nowadays which does not interest me one bit, or what the majority of people are catching. Gone are the days when people we trying all sorts of off the shelf products in their baits for an edge, it's more out of desperation for fame and to line their pockets nowadays and then it gets ruthless and with no scruples.

It's simple for me, if they had come out in the first place, catch as many as you can in a competition, instead of basking in the false glory I don't think there would have been as much kick back, more to the point, incredible, wheres that from then, and then the debate would have been, what's the longer term impact on the fish and the environment. Remeber Ultrabite, I bet most at the time were dabbling with that. It's the false pretences and all of the lies that is the problem. Nobody likes a liar, end of, especially when they are using something to make people believe they are something they are not and all for the price of been “special” in carpfishing, wow, the chicks are all over him, really

In reply to Post #83
I think he was saying that everyone these days wants to think they're like Terry Hearn, except him, who really is like Terry hearn.

In reply to Post #85
Oh...

The irony is that Tel doesn't do all the self promotion and whoring himself off in the media and I can't see him fishing somewhere like Linear these days either!

It's one thing wearing the ESP Jumper and using SS3000s but wanting Tels Hormones, that's Baby Reindeer levels of weird 😂

Why doesn't Kev Hewitt just come out and say what he was actually referring to because it all started from him, Toms name was in the mix purely on people assuming cause he hauls, he must be upto no good.

In reply to Post #88
I think it was more to do with Tom goes out with Mark Bartletts sister.Mark and Kev have had some huge hauls over the years and it's Mark's sister that keeps horses

In reply to Post #89
Tbh the rumours Tom was 'quashing' were not rumours I had heard? I never heard Tom's wife was a vet, and never heard he was supposedly injecting fish. So it's somewhat off he focused on those points.

I haven't read any of it anywhere other than here, or indeed want to as it simply doesn't interest me from a fishing pov, but...

it's one thing to drag a Carper anglers name through the mud, Carp Anglers bitching about other Carp anglers, up to them BUT it's another thing to drag a Vet into the equation. If that's true I'd be seething if I was her. Some poxy fishermen potentially slandering my name because someone catches more fish than others...fgs...get a grip.
Never mind that, imagine if the BVA decided to launch a investigation, 5-6 years learning and some jealous angler calls all that into Q

In reply to Post #91
I think when you realise the damage being done using hormones, you couldnt take a flippant view. It could easily destroy what we know as today's carping. Maker could have been a fantastic advocate against its use. Absolutely perfect. Instead he has doubled down..This isn't going away. Its easy to buy, easy to apply and the results are absolutely devastating, in more ways than one.
It is easily detected though. If someone comes on to your lake and catches in impossible circumstances, again and again, it's too good to be true so chuck him in.

In reply to Post #92
Surely fisheries would list it as a banned substance in rules very quickly? So far as I am aware zero fisheries have done so. Kev said there's something that cant be bought easily and is not in tackle shops and so to clear their names, why wouldn't he just say. That's what has always baffled me.

In reply to Post #92
I hope that flippant comment wasn't aimed at me

Definitely the face of innocence

In reply to Post #95
Should be locked up for that little beard if nothing else.

In reply to Post #92
I know nothing about this subject, in fact I don't think it's even a thing but what damage are you referring too?

I've listened to what Tom Maker had to say, and have to say IMO he came across pretty well and believable, watched the Kenny Gates clip and he seems quite emotional about it all but only has what some so called experts have told him and no evidence of any wrong doing and now listened to Kevin Hewitt who bearing in mind is being accused of all sorts really doesn't do himself any favours with his answers.

I won't be doing any more research into it as A. I'm not that interested and B. I've seen tricky waters taken apart by guys with a lot of time applying the right bait in the right areas at the right time.
The worms smashing places isn't really a surprise to me, if most Carp Anglers really look at themselves they'd realise they are not that Pro-Activ in their approach and yes may have used a tub of worms twice and blanked but to apply them in the manner some of these guys are apparently doing just hadn't really been done to any real extent in their waters, and probably still hasn't.
I know for a fact the waters I'm fishing haven't been fished with Naturals in any real quantity.

In reply to Post #96
😂

In reply to Post #97
Since you have named him. Until very recently Tom Maker was saying all you need is hemp corn and whatever boilie he was sponsored by. Even if he did only use a handful of worms . In all the this is my spod mix clips he wasn't telling the truth. But let's be honest that's sponsored anglers all over.
I think Kenny Gates hit the nail on the head that some people won't fish carp matches because of this. I realy hope it's not as widespread as it sounds. A sad day for fishing.

Right OK. There must be more people out there like me who haven't a ****ing clue what's going on and who are all these people . I've been carp fishing since the mid 70's, keep myself to myself, don't do social media apart from a couple of Forums and thought a pod was a group of dolphins.

So I've managed to understand there's a use of hormones, possibly used in the vetinary trade or equine trade being used to stimulate carp into feeding, worms being the delivery method maybe. The use of this is split into 3 ethical problems.

A. The potential damage to fish stocks (although I've not seen any science to back this up on here). Not dismissing this at all, as it is very scary, but not seen anything on here.

B. The ethics of cheating in a competition (although these aren't actually banned or illegal as such yet as far as I'm aware. Again I'm not being dismissive but just asking for clarification..

C. The ethics of big name companies who know, may know, or encourage said use of these products for their own gain or just sticking their heads in the sand not to ‘rock the boat.

The last bit is who the **** are all these people. They don't exist in my world.

So who are the following and what are their roles in all this. Who is the bloke in the picture ( in the original thread last year named as the ‘Red Faced Man'?

Tom Maker
Kev Hewitt
Mark Bartlett
Wayne's Mansford
Ryan Need
Mick Perry
Kenny Gates

Are Nash and Korda being named as in the know or worse?

Can someone shed some light in an accurate and concise way for the likes of me and I suspect many others.

In reply to Post #100
Tbh mate I think it's social media doing its thing, I don't really care to find out.

A comment earlier in the thread, testing for hormones in water...what a absolute joke, just think about that for 1 min. Most of the meat we eat probably has growth hormones that we pee on the bank, then there's the fish meal in our baits, salmon etc, then there's the water we bring from home, probably full of oestrogen and then the overflow from sewers, farms, pee from people taking steroids.....where does it end...if you wanted to find it you could.

Will future fish records only be ratified from growth hormone free samples. How long will it be before someone accuses a genuine home grown Carp of being on steroids? Let's face it, selective breeding is genetic manipulation and we already do that everywhere.

Like you, I just hope there are more anglers out there who don't subscribe to all this jealousy crap and witch hunting. I bet if Korda were accused directly they'd 1st call you out and then their lawyers would find you. I suspect those sorts of anglers to be too busy fishing to bother with this.

In reply to Post #95
I remember that, “how not to play poker”

Or he dropped to sleep in the sun

In reply to Post #102
Kevin Ellis was ****ing himself at the thought of saying something challenging and meaningful.

In reply to Post #102
The Kev Ellis Asylum ii vid describes eDNA, a process of testing water to ID species within. Its used all the time in ecology and development. No longer need to catch/not catch great crested newts. Just test the water and discover. I'm not sure if hormones can be discovered or not via eDNA. I'll find out but it's certainly not what it's made for. The test is to find DNA shed by organisms not hormones.

In reply to Post #104
You can just test the water for the substance/hormone that is suspected to have been used. Like you said eDNA isn't suitable for this. You'd have to test for specific things though.
Main issue would be the life of the substance. It may be undetectable after a short period. eDNA it's 48hrs.

With testing you also wouldn't be able to attribute it to anyone, not solidly. You'd just have to accuse whoever is catching the most. All still deniable

I was talking to someone about these Hormones in September last year. He told me quite a few things and they all sounded plausible.

Using a couple of 'keywords' he mentioned to me I immediately found this video.

When listening to this video, remember this fact (source Google):
"Lake Sorell is a large (53 square kilometres), shallow lake at an elevation of 800m above sea level. Closed to fishing in 1995 due to the discovery of European carp, the lake was reopened in 2020."

Now watch this video (video from circa 2010, so this is not a NEW substance):


So, Lake Sorell is no puddle....and they are using this hormone to attract and capture the lakes remaining "few dozen adults"??
I'd say that's a pretty potent trick to have up your sleeve, wouldn't you?

I was also told that initially the hormone was added to the bait, but the anglers using it realised that once the bait was eaten, the hormone wasn't in the water anymore, so it's effectiveness as an attractant was then reduced.
That's when they started adding it to a carrier.

What would be a good carrier?
Anyone who has match fished for silvers might remember anglers using leam (soil) to darken the water, add cloud etc.
When I was a lad (many years ago) I would go collect soil from mole heaves to use in my groundbait.
Anyhow, using soil is a great way to put a bed of attraction in a swim.
Worms come in soil....

I am not suggesting this has definitely happened, and I am certainly not going to name names as everything is hearsay and I wouldn't want anybody's reputation to be marred when they may well be innocent.

I'm just saying it could be possible that someone / somewhere was getting hold of this stuff. Apparently vets can get hold of it and it's around £60 a litre.

I've never mentioned any of this before as the last thing I would want would be for people to start investigating how to get hold of this stuff and ruining carp fishing for everyone, on every water. However, it would appear from what has been said below that a lot of the 'clues' about this stuff have already been put out there by other media sources.

In reply to Post #100
Lets' just start saying it as it is shall we and stop talking in veiled speech.

Basically - allegedly, the claim is that people have been using Lutalyse which is a hormone induced synthetic drug predominantly used on horses and pigs to enduce labour, it's part of the PGF2a synthetic hormone. Gives out the signal to males that the females are on heat and also creates breeding activity in females. Can only be issued via a vet on subscription and usually injected into the animal as the gear can be absorbed through skin.

As has been eluded to, the gear could probably be injected into PVA bags or mixed up with crumb, soil (with worms in that absorb it) to create a signal and draw fish into your area which then go berserk as they think it's breeding time and give off more pheromones which drags more fish in...e.t.c. e.t.c, before you know it you have the majority of the stock of the lake in front of your swim going nuts. My guess is that it's the same gear used in that video and injected into females in those traps to bring in the males and other females.

Has it been used in Carp Fishing - my guess would be YES. The catch at all cost, full timing, social media craving ilk of clowns now in Carp Fishing would do anything for an extra pack of hooks. Ethics in this once great pastime has long gone. Carp fishing is now a full on business for a lot of people with a lot of money involved - this creates competition and greed.

Worms.....uh, righto then...

In reply to Post #107
If true, lovely stuff...

https://www.zoetisus.com/content/_assets/docs/vmips/safety-data-sheets/lutalyse.pdf

In reply to Post #108
I don't know Beyonce - if true, it's a sad state of affairs mate. I wouldn't put it past anyone though. Walk around any lake nowadays and it's rammed out - people that use fishing as their income need to rise above it and look for the extra edge or what we used to call "stroke pulling". Way to many good anglers nowadays and in my opinion it is an equal playing field. Gone are the days of full timers on the dole having the lakes to themselves all week until the weekend crew rocks up. This used to be their biggest edge.

Needs to be called out though if it is being used and not spoken about in the shadows as it will **** up all our waters and bring the end of carp angling as we know it.

In reply to Post #103
For evil to exist takes good men to do nothing.

In reply to Post #103
Come on lads, call it out when you see it. It happened on a local lake and nobody stood up to the guy, including the owner. In the end the lad got wind and didn't come back, calling everyone childish and jealous. His insta-entourage backed him up.

Lovely. I'll be locking myself in the bog and power reading Casting At The Sun now.

In reply to Post #114
Call it out but you aren't naming and shaming?

In reply to Post #108
Jesus, if they have been using this to catch more carp they must be bloody bonkers.....

Never mind the impacts it has on the fish, and the ethics of using it, its nasty stuff, and even if this was perfectly safe to use in a fishing scenario and have no health impacts on the fish, how on earth would you be able to handle this safely on the bank???

Chemical resistant gloves, eye protection, be carful not to breath in any mist, donot have any skin contact etc. surely you would look like Walter white doing his blue ice stuff when spodding this out......

I dont know about anyone else, but i dont like spod spill and try to minimise it as much as possible to prevent attracting the rats etc, but its inevitable even the most vigilant and cleanest of anglers would get some on there skin.....

I think this takes catch at all costs to a whole new level....

In reply to Post #117
Tbh the data sheet for most chemicals read like that. What about all the flavours/organic acids/etc we use......

In reply to Post #118
You missed the part that said it can be absorbed through the skin and cause abortion?

The more I think about it the more I just cannot see this being the drug there using
Hear me out....

So this drug causes the fish to pump out the same hormone they do when spawning-if injected. I'm pretty sure it wouldn't have the same reaction just added to a spod mix. Even if it's eaten by them doesn't mean it would have the same reaction to the fish and would take much longer.

I think something has been used going off Hewitts and him looking like a dear in head lights but I cannot see anyone getting away with injecting a fish without it being seen.

In reply to Post #66
Just listened to the podcast. Have no judgement whether Maker was/is involved or not but he did talk some shìte at times, like covering his ass with his bait sponsor by saying he'd catch exactly the same amount of fish without the worms - then seemed to realise he was contradicting himself totally cos he'd just spent the last half an hour ranting that worms were so amazing people thought he was using hormones, so he fumbled on to say that small amounts were just an edge in certain weather conditions

Also, he said he was testing out all this in his garage. how does that work?

In reply to Post #121
Don't forget the last 10 years when all the Korda boys (and Tom) told us and showed us what bait they were using, but kept the worms and maggots hidden away.All those years, it's hard to trust anybody.

In reply to Post #122
Anglers have been keeping bait edges under there hats since man first baited a hook. Nothing underhanded or wrong in that..

In reply to Post #119
As I said, read chemical analysis sheets for a lot of widely used chemicals.

Why's it a shock that a fertility hormone can be absorbed through the skin, and in excess cause an abortion?

In reply to Post #120
Think about it. If injected it causes them to pump the hormone out into the water, why wouldn't it work if just put into the water?

If you have a google there are loads of studies talking about methods of use in non-angling situations to attract fish into an area.

In reply to Post #125
Because your not injecting that hormone... Your injecting something that makes the carp produce it

In reply to Post #126
For what it was intended for, it needs injecting into females to help with controlling/promoting ovulation. Doesn't take much of any hormone to attract a male 😂

If it had to be injected into the fish to get it to work, you'd need to catch a fish first, inject it, and hope it stayed in the area.

In reply to Post #127
Well yer that's my point... Obviously it works but will it work just held up in the swim/soil/worms. If I seen someone injecting a fish I wouldn't let it slide.. There's fish care then there's giving them something IV when yout not a vet.

In reply to Post #127
Mate, you are taking about pituitary (GtH) from the endocrine gland, used since the late 80s to induce spawning in cyprinids by injection. Nowt to do with the stuff we are on about here.

In reply to Post #129
Well yes, beings as that's what was mentioned above.

In the video I shared below, it does show a fish being injected.

I wasn't suggesting injections ever happened or were required. Also, maybe the hormone/liquid they are using in that video is different to the hormone/liquid that is allegedly being used. It's a very old video, I am sure they've come up with other versions/alternatives since 2010.

The main point of my post was to demonstrate that there are man made substances out there, which can be highly effective in attracting carp to an area...and that adding that liquid to a carrier such as leam/soil would be a good way to put down a hormone laden carpet of attraction in a swim.

In reply to Post #132
Oh I know you wasn't implying that... I ain't kept up with this whole hormone thing as quite frankly I find it quite sad people are needing to resort to things like this.
What ever it is, and how ever they have manged to deliver it just makes me wonder how many other synthetic chemicals they have tried in the process.

In reply to Post #123
Anglers have been keeping bait edges under there hats since man first baited a hook
Oh I gotta tell you !!
back in the day when I was in Freds inner circle I was fishing a water using Freds floater cake and doing really well and to put people off I bought a Lyons Ginger cake as it was a similar colour
I left some cut into big cubes on the wrapper just by the bivvy door
I wont name the very famous carp angler that popped round for a chat then went straight up the shops and bought a bag full of Lyons ginger cakes
BUT!!!!!!!!!
and here is the kicker he caught one off the top that day on the cake it turned out to be quite a good bait

In reply to Post #123
Oh that's ok then..
They were premoting a bait that they weren't using, but it's ok bacause people keep secrets

In reply to Post #124
‘Why's it a shock that a fertility hormone can be absorbed through the skin, and in excess cause an abortion?'

The behaviour of the chemical isn't shocking, that is what it's supposed to do. It's the fact that people are willing to expose themselves, other anglers, possibly family members to it just to catch a few fish.

I don't get where you are coming from comparing the Lutylase chemical warnings to those on a flavour or organic acid. The risks with prostaglandin are clearly very different.

In reply to Post #106
So what happened in the Trials, any idea?

This video only shows them injecting fish with the idea/hope they will attract the wild fish in making them easier to catch.

Did it work?

I think that all of this nonsense about hormones, has simply come about through pure jealously, mostly from people who simply aren't very good at catching carp, being unable to handle the idea that there are anglers out there who are much better than they are.

The end result of this, is low skill anglers - making up stories, nonsense, anecdotes and lies, to better help them cope with the idea that they're not very good at catching carp and likely never will be, this helps them control their tears whilst they blank.

People are very quick to make named accusations, completely oblivious to the fact that they're doing real damage to people who are almost certainly innocent - once it's been said, it can't easily be undone.

I think people need to slow down, think a little harder before they start naming people or spreading nonsense stories, because it literally almost certainly is - a load of nonsense.

In reply to Post #138
OMG Get your head out of the sand!

In reply to Post #138
Nail on the head.

Not a single scrap of evidence has been shown against any of these named anglers.

In reply to Post #138
Some of the people who have pulled out of carp matches are not "low skilled" anglers.

The reason there is no evidence is that it would be so easy to hide and secondly the tackle and especially the bait suppliers would look complicit in all this....and have probably put pressure on the anglers(?) in question to stop.

I'm sorry but every time someone questions whether this went on the phrase head in the sand does come to mind.

In reply to Post #141
Head is not in the sand at all, just because its possible, does not mean these anglers who are doing well are using it does it? What doesnt sit well with me is the accusations against specific people with no evidence that they are using such a thing, without a single thought for the repercussions and damage to their livelyhood and their mental state.
Anglers pulling out of champs is up to them, they obviously feel like they cant compete, perhaps they just arent cut out for it? Perhaps theyve just told themselves the others must be cheating to help protect their egos? Perhaps they have clear evidence of cheating, in which case why dont they share it?

Alot of whats been said was based on false information and here say, a certain anglers wife being a vet.....etc... which turned out to be false.... but by then people are too far down the rabbit hole its too late...... dont let facts get in the way of a good rumour ay.

In reply to Post #142
It does beg the question if it's known to have gone on, and people in the industry know about it, why are they all protecting each other? Or are they all in on it, or have been at some point?
The fact no one is willing to name names, even in this thread someone said they knew someone but didnt name them, is odd.
If you fish carp matches for a living and you KNOW someone is cheating and beating you, surely you out them? Only reason not to is that you're guilty too. Just putting the microscope on them would either find it to be true, or force them to stop using it and it'll be obvious when their results suffer.

In reply to Post #143
Because you'd need proof - otherwise it would be libellous.

We all form opinions based on the info we have. In cycling they must be doing something dodgy' Rebecca Vardy ‘handy they lost all messages and phone in the North Sea', as well as thousand of conscious and unconscious opinions we have.

I believe the products named and the recognised uses for them mean that someone has dabbled - after the pod cast - I don't believe it was Tom and think he was unfairly treated by many. It would be fairly easy to prove who because the chain of custody for these drugs is very tight, but it would be super expensive and involve lawyers, criminal charges and the like, so who would ever be rich and bothered enough and to what end?

As I said earlier I think Toms podcast was brilliant, honest and heart on sleeve, my opinion. I would have liked him to be asked a question as the passionate guy he is, what would he have thought, done etc. if he was not implicated (wrongly) but there were rumours of dangerous chemicals being used that threatened the future of the sport.

There's a big difference between stroke pulling and illegal activities so I can understand the intense speculation and rumours as a matter of interest to everyone who fishes.

In reply to Post #144
there's plenty that have said they have proof but they never did anything with it. Why?

you can order the stuff from china unregulated. Plenty of other methods to get hold of it that arent the official way.

The person with the vet 'connection' in the information I was given was NOT Tom, it was another angler.

To be clear: In my posts I am not trying to associate Tom with cheating/hormone use, not at all.

I think Tom's a brilliant angler.
For what it's worth, he's in my top 3 favourite anglers alongside Mr Hearn and Mr Dove.

I have nothing but respect for the guy and always enjoy watching his videos as I think he talks a lot of sense (I don't agree with everything he says, but I do agree with the vast majority of it)

Bear in mind he's been emptying waters since LONG before the hormone subject ever entered anyone's minds. There is no doubting his skill as an angler

So, hero worship aside....we cannot say people have used it unless we have proof. As stated that would be libel and anyone wanting to gossip without proof is simpy that - a gossip.

However, the fact remains, that there are substances out there which could be used and which could muck up carp fishing as we know it.
Because of that, I believe it's valid to keep an eye out and an ear to the ground to help avoid such practices from being overlooked or accepted.

Given the state of modern carp fishing and the knuckle draggIng window lickers that it seems to have attracted in the last fifteen years. I'd be amazed if it hasn't been going on.

Monday afternoon I found a few carp sat under a nearbank bush. A handful of chopped worms sprinkled in right next to them.
Reaction? Absolutely nothing, they just sat there. I'm obviously not keeping my worms properly.

In reply to Post #148
Your missing the trick I'm going to let the cat out the bag here, I like to keep my lobs knotted up in the gusset of a well used pair of my misses tights preferably when shes had no knickers on whilst wearing them, I then when taking them out the tights give them a healthy coating of Canasten cream as I wouldn't want to pass on her thrush infection to the carp, poor buggers they can already suffer with Herpes, having an itchy gob as well

In reply to Post #149
😂😂😂

In reply to Post #149
>

In reply to Post #149
A stamped addressed envelope is heading your way mate.

In reply to Post #142
What I will say is that I've seen it in action at least twice (the same pair) and the response is so unbelievable that it is absolutely blatantly obvious.

In reply to Post #153
What have you seen in action
The injecting of the carp and releasing it back into the area ? or
The resulting mass catching of fish ?

If it is either then “someone” should put “their” head above the parapet and name them or they will be getting away with it until someone actually grows a pair and outs them.
If they are representing their country and they are doing this then they deserve all that will come to them.

Otherwise it's all just more.bollox

What I can't understand is
These carp fishing matches have a lot of money attached to them and surely just doesn't make sense that those finishing in 2nd wouldn't accept it if they knew or assumedcheating was going on

In reply to Post #153
What did you see?

In reply to Post #153
I'm sure I have seen the same thing a couple of times.

Ian Russell was one of the competition anglers who has stated that he will no longer participate in carp matches because of the potential usage of chemicals by other competitors. He didn't accuse anyone in the UK of using them but did say that he was aware that they were being used in European competitions & the carp are so reactive towards them & they are such a game changer that he didn't want to even risk going up against other anglers using them when money is concerned.

If you can find it, Stephen White did a detailed podcast on their usage on Carp Chronicles but Sam had to take it down due to legal actions. I know some people have downloaded copies & it is super interesting & he speaks of how they were possibly used on Farriers.

When the news broke, there was a lot of finger pointing, tongue wagging & accusations around who had been using them based on their recent catches. I don't seem to remember many similar catches by those individuals since then so if it was what they said it was, why aren't we seeing the same results any more?

In reply to Post #157
Ian Russell was one of the competition anglers who has stated that he will no longer participate in carp matches because of the potential usage of chemicals by other competitors

I read that somewhere, probably a link here. Respect to that man Ian

I remeber him being quite open about it too, that people were using it and others would not stand a chance if they were. I believe the man

In reply to Post #156
Seen what though?.

In reply to Post #159
Being out fished by the sounds of it again all bluster and no actual evidence.

In reply to Post #160
This thread seems to have reached it's conclusion now, as some believe there was something dodgy going on whilst others believe these carping stars have done nothing wrong. We just seem to be going around in circles now.

In reply to Post #161
It is interesting to see everyone's views about this subject.
I wish we had a voting system on here so we can post a question and see the votes.

In reply to Post #153
Please elaborate in some detail what you have seen on both occasions. How, what, when this substance(s) we're used. How did you witness on both occasions and at what events?

In reply to Post #163
Both were bcac matches. One at linear and one at farlows (i was fishing a different qualifier on the same complex in one, and was a runner at farlows, a lake that i know like the back of my hand). Both in in mediocre pegs that certainly didn't have hundreds of fish present.

In the linear match this pair outfished everyone by almost a thousand lb, including 2 previous winning pairs who were both close to them. They only fished for around 24 of the 48 hours.

The fish were stacked up in columns one their spot. Everyone else in their area of the lake blanked. (This is a large, open lake) Hundreds and hundreds of carp were just in front of them, in open water. They were displaying really strange behaviour that was almost a combination of feeding and spawning shows. At the beginning of the match, there were no fish in that area at all, and what seemed like within 12 hours almost the entire stock just migrated to them, for no reason and went absolutely nuts. The lake barely did a fish for a week after (bearing in mind there are thousands of carp in there and the place is prolific).

Their peg was taped off with 2 blokes stopping people going anywhere near it. The only thing that I noticed when I popped over the 2nd time was that they were both constantly washing black sludge off of everything when they were spodding.

The same thing happened at farlows.

I know what dozens of kilo of chopped worm can do when the fish are present and on it, ive done it myself, and this is nothing like that sort of response. It's an absolutely different level and a very different response

Its got zero to do with jealousy, it's about it being uncompetitive and unfair

It's hard to quantify but in 30 years of carp fishing, I have never seen behaviour like it, and it only happened to this pair, during their matches on lakes that I know well.
When you add lots of factors together, it just doesn't make sense. Yes it's not absolutely conclusive evidence of chemical use but the response is truly unbelievable!

They have claimed that they were using huge quantities of a bright particle bait, but it is nonsense, I saw what they were putting out, and there wasn't a particle in sight

In reply to Post #164
Based on that evidence.....Pretty damning methinks......

In reply to Post #164
Thanks for that really informative

In reply to Post #164
Who were the 2 anglers?

In reply to Post #167
He can't say..... think it would be libellous.... no matter the truth.

In reply to Post #168
Whole thing seems like bull**** to me!

Since when do carp feed like mad when spawning is on their mind!

In reply to Post #167
might give you a clue Wayne

In reply to Post #169
You never caught an abnormally large amount of fish right before spawning? Or watched spawning carp, I've seen some eating during the process.

In reply to Post #170
What am I looking at?

I have caught fish before spawning but once they start jack **** as have always left them to it.

In reply to Post #172
OK, so you don't catch fish whilst they are spawning. But have caught loads right up untill they start spawning. Which of these things do you think are the reason?

1. Carp stop feeding the second spawning starts.
2. You have reeled in your rods.

In reply to Post #170
I tell you what.... looking at the numbers from the catch reports of matches that certain anglers have fished on that link is certainly eye opening.

Not got the time of will to do it, but from initial interpretations of looking at the raw numbers of fish & weight, the data points to a serious shift from what would have been standard. Would be interesting to see the data plotted on some relevant charts

No wonder it got the gossip mill running

In reply to Post #174
The link above were worm captures, hence the large amounts of fish by quite a few pairs. All natural baits were banned for the 2019 competition and subsequent years to level the playing field. Until this year where the new owners have now again allowed them. No ridiculous weights so far this year though.

In reply to Post #175
People haven't been practicing with the worms on their garage enough

In reply to Post #173
I didn't say loads? I have caught as normal then the fish switch off once spawning starts. In fact they switch off just before it starts when the males are darting about everywhere!

If something is being used then it's probably an amino acid that's in worms! Would tie in with Mainline releasing 2 x ISO baits too!

In reply to Post #177
So why do those aminos in the worms no longer work?

In reply to Post #172
The 2018 semi final on Brasenose 1, scroll down the page to the results one pair Need & Mansford are over 2135lb next pair Bartlett & Hewitt are on 1415lb and third pair Meyer & Swift are on 1114lb theres two more pairs with reasonable weights and numbers of fish, looks to me like get a swim and your on the fish then fish well and the chance of qualifying/winning was there for the taking, going up against England team members then complaining when you get your ass handed to you on a plate.

I'm by no means mates with any of them and I've only ever met Ryan at Rainbow many years ago a few times to say hello and Mark Bartlett once at a mates 50th birthday party but what I can say is it was way before BCAC matches or any sponsorship and the explosion of social media and definitely any talk of Hormones being used or well before being in the England squad, they were/and are both exceptional anglers, Bartlett has been sitting on a match seat since he was a kid and would out fish nearly anybody and Ryan was one of the anglers at Rainbow that seemed to do better than most, theres a select amount down there that seem to do better than most very consistent even when its tough going and the majority of those said anglers have never fished a carp match or would even consider it.

There's a podcast out there with the winning pair talking about their participation in the BCAC they also mention the match was won in the first 24hrs and they didn't bother to fish the next 24hrs

He mentioned one qualifier where the winning pair were over a 1000lb in front poor Matthew and Steven only had one fish of 18lb I'd say they pulled Duffers Bay, trouble is with the matches and money involved they pay their fees throw their hat in the ring and when the realization is they either cannot compete on technical ability or they've come up against anglers that make it look easy, then theres got to be fowl play involved.

Anyone remember the O'Connors way before a sniff of Hormone's, do well get shot down, I dont believe any of the accusations thrown at them were proved outright, different set of circumstances and the trade waded in back then, but too late the mud stuck.

As I've always maintained "innocent until proven guilty" all mud slinging and Chinese whispers in my opinion even in this thread he admitted he didn't have any definite proof and he physically didn't see them doing it but they must of been up to something, not the fact he got it handed to him on a plate and cannot except that just maybe he's not at a level where he can compete with a better class of consistent anglers who just maybe on the whole have put a lot more effort in and possible had a small touch of luck.

Worst colour there is green and most things we using in carp fishing are, its all around us including envy and jealousy.

In reply to Post #179
Agreed

Looking at those top 3 the place was obviously fishing really well!

In reply to Post #178
Who said they don't work?

In reply to Post #179
should have ended that with "Get on the GOO"

In reply to Post #179
Thing is, there so much snakey things that go on and we all know about, that it isnt that far fetched that hormones or at least something have and are being used. Fish caught on other baits being claimed on sponsor baits for example. Stroke pulling or blatant disregard of rules whichever way you want to coin it for example.

It doesnt affect a majority of anglers the hormone thing granted but we also all know the power of social media and how easily influenced anglers are. It's a dangerous thing just to even start a rumour about because anglers WILL try it or do their hardest to try it.
The first time it came about it happened. It didnt need to rear it's head again and imo this interview however useful it was for Tom personally, has just re-opened a can of worms that had started to get forgotten.

In reply to Post #179
You and Wayne must be the only people that don't believe it

I would say it's nailed on, what a bunch of tits. Don't play poker with a face like that

Of course they are not going to admit to it

As usual the minority spoil it for the majority, that's the only reason people will now be questioning any big hits, they set the benchmark, muppets

In reply to Post #184
If someone has evidence then I would possibly believe it but that ain't going to happen so it will just go down in the carp history books as malicious gossip.......

In reply to Post #169
Had one of my best ever sessions when fish were starting to spawn. This was before it was the done thing to pack up and leave them to it. Stands to reason spawning takes a lot out of them. So the urge to refuel is strong so much so they throw all caution to wind and become almost easy.

So it makes sense. Find a way to get them to think they need to spawn. It almost becomes to easy..

In reply to Post #184

In reply to Post #185
Next you will be trying to get us to believe it's just another conspiracy theory

In reply to Post #188
It probably is......

This whole hormone thing makes me laugh though! Someone does well, really well then the daggers come out wanting answers as to why? Because they can't get a normal explanation it manifests itself into something so dangerous it could affect child birth and fishing as we know it.........

Such similarities to the last 4 years of our lives...bull****, bull**** and more bull****....

I think your right it's the whole jealousy thing if someone is successful others do t like it,I had it a few times when I lived down south always done my own thing and when I caught the locals (bear in mind suppose to be fishermen but more like druggies and alcoholics) always moaning about me to someone,maybe because I never had much to do with them just done my own thing and not bothered what people said.

In reply to Post #188
Adam Penning will be along soon 😂

In reply to Post #191
He's one I've never really take too,i dont believe all his captures in the magazines (yes i still buy them)same as a lot of others i think they BS captures of big carp than they actually catch,he's in the limelight he has to mahe it look like he's catching same as the others,people like AP never seem to blank like normal people

In reply to Post #192
Mr baines is talking about the other side of AP and his thoughts on certain things........

It's quite simple to me.......people got whooooooped in a fishing comp for loads of money, their ego was badly hurt and couldn't except the result so they went on a mission to discredit the anglers......it's amazing what lengths people will go to for money!

In reply to Post #193
Lengths like using hormones to win?

In reply to Post #193
I find it genuinely baffling that you realise that people will go to lengths for money, but you don't think people might use illicit substances?

Works both ways......some will do anything to win ( not in this case IMO ) and others will make up crap when they lose the Money that they thought they were entitled to......

End of the day it's all whispers without substance......

In reply to Post #193
He believes a lot of conspiracies I know,I'm just saying about the jealousy in fishing

In reply to Post #197
👍.......your right, you only have to look at the bait section on here and on social media to see how twisted people get over fish food......

if worms were the cause of this feeding frenzy, the bait company's that sponsor these guys weren't very transparent about what all these carp were caught on. unless they were sponsored by Willie's worms

In reply to Post #199
Exactly

In reply to Post #199
Happens all the time. Bait companies will pay them to lie. Or offer anglers deals if they say they caught certain fish on their bait.

In reply to Post #196
Which substance

I'm amazed that given what people have seen with their own eyes from their own angling experiences that anyone could think that this hasn't been going on.

Think about your own fishing. Most of us on here have been at it for decades. Think about all the times you've used a gazillion different boilies, or hookbaits. Think about all the hundreds of different items you've used in spod mixes over decades. Think about all the oils and lotions and potions you've gone through. Think about all the times over the years that you've used maggots, casters and worms. Now think about all your mates you've fished next to over the years and tell me just one time that you've ever witnessed the entire stock of carp suddenly turn up in your unfavored swim and go absolutely ape **** because of any one of these baits that you've used. Tell me one time that the fish have behaved weirdly for a week after you've finished fishing because you used worms. If naturals were causing this you'd be seeing it every week. My god most of us were fishing worms as a kid because they were free and you got as many as you wanted from the garden. You telling me you were emptying lakes?

Open your eyes people. When you've got the likes of Ian Russel telling you it's happening he's not gonna make it up is he? The man owned a bait company. I think he's got a good idea what you can put in a bait to attract fish.

I fish with some of the best anglers in the country. Guys that don't pay for tackle or bait, that have unlimited resources compared to us mortals and I can tell you now that I've never seen them get reactions from fish like what's being described and they can chuck the kitchen sink at them and have lots and lots of time.

I'm sure I remember one of the weekly angling papers mail or times had in their cover that some scientist's had discovered the ultimate bait/additive,but they wouldn't bring it out to general public for obvious reasons

There's a problem though isn't there:

We have 14 pages of 'chit chat' but absolutely nothing in terms of proof, evidence - or anything other than statements such as:

'It must be going on'

'lakes are being emptied'

'my mate saw this'

'One time I saw some bloke catch 30 fish in a session.

Unless somebody puts up actual proof or evidence, I'm continuing to call BS on the whole thing.

Then there's another problem - the most famous angler caught up in this scandal, has always been known for tearing waters up, even when he was a kid. So it doesn't make any sense, it's not like he was a crap angler until he found some mystery illegal substance, he's always been smashing up lakes.

I agree with Simon Crow - worth a watch: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pvxUiJn4IT0

In reply to Post #205
I agree with Simon Crow - worth a watch: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pvxUiJn4IT0


What a load of twaddle. He's hardly a neutral party to talk about it, considering he used ti be on the team with the 'lawyer' who massively made him self and everyone around him look guilty with his ridiculous poorly spelt statements


To sum it up what he said...
.. "these people have an edge by doing things with liquids, because if there was a product out there like hormones that made carp addicted then bait companies would be selling it, but they don't, but they're using liquids that attract carp, and thats how theyre catching more than eceryone else. So everyone should just stop talkimg about it"

Hang on, I thought it was worms?


Do people listen to these completely contradictory statements and not just think, man, you have to be a complete idiot to believe this? Why isn't Simon Crow saying there needs to be a proper investigation into it? He's just happy to dismiss it, because, well they're just using liquids.

Nope, nothing to see here, everyone should just stop talking about it.

In reply to Post #206
Why isn't Simon Crow saying there needs to be a proper investigation into it?

Investigation into what?

How do you investigate something, where there is no known incident or starting point, other than what people are saying on a grapevine and social media?

Somebody gets murdered - you have a body, you have evidence, now you can start your investigation and work backwards to find out who did it.

With this hormones nonsense - there is no smoking gun, there is no place to start from, the grapevine and nonsense on social media doesn't qualify as something you can investigate.

You can't effectively investigate hearsay.

In reply to Post #207
But going forward you can make checks.
If all of a sudden these OTT captures stop then at least you've stop the cheating.
The past as you say can't be investigated, those captures will have to stand.

In reply to Post #206
Well it is a liquid. So he's not saying it's not that. An edge with liquids. Like a hormone liquid?

In reply to Post #207

Somebody gets murdered - you have a body, you have evidence, now you can start your investigation and work backwards to find out who did it.


Well I haven't seen the dead body so there's no evidence. All those people who have reported the dead body, or have concerns there may be a dead body aren't worth talking too, they're probably just making it up.

Simon Crow even tries to discredit Steven White. It's literally a classic cover up from a guy who really knows hiw the media works.

In reply to Post #208
Make checks for what?

How can you check for something, when you don't know what you're checking for?

In reply to Post #210
The problem with this hormone scandal, is not that there's no evidence - there isn't even a theory or method of how it could work that makes sense, in any fishing situation.

What are people suggesting? That we're injecting female carp with Prostaglandin - putting it in a cage at 20 wraps, then foul-hooking 100x angry male carp going mad around the cage?

You're saying it's happening - what do you think is happening?

Because none of it makes any sense when you think it through.

In reply to Post #213
Not a single person has suggested that people are injecting carp. I've never heard that other than Tom Maker saying that to try make the claims spind ridiculous.


People are suggesting hormones are being used as a liquid, used in a carrier such as soil or worms, and spodded out.

Every single eye witness that has seen strange goings on, and not just online rumour mill. Has always had the same few things in common, spodding a dark looking mix, fish showing strange signs of spawning like behaviour, massive hits of fish and then the lake not doing a single fish for several weeks after.

Multiple eyewitness reports, that all share similarities, but you don't want to investigate that?

In reply to Post #214
People that are too busy protecting their idols always ignore what's actually said and repeat what their idols say.
Case in point below.

None of the people that have come out to clear their names as they say or deny using it, have actually done so. Simon crow said liquid edge, the hormone in question is a liquid. So it's a liquid edge is it not?
Tom said it's worms, worms with what on them? It's been claimed worms and soil used a carrier so could he have been doing the same?

No one has outright said they haven't used it and offered any insight in to what they did that has nothing to do with hormone use in some way.

In reply to Post #214
Not a single person has suggested that people are injecting carp

There's no other way that it can work, this is why they do it in pest control settings - you cannot obtain the hormones via any other way, it can't be synthesised and it can't be 'thrown into the lake'.

If it was that easy, do you think that farmers who want to get rid of carp tearing their irrigation dikes apart, would screw around injecting carp and putting them in cages?

That's what they do, because that's the only way it works.

You cannot just synthesise reproductive hormones in any quantity - then throw them into a bucket of bait, it just doesn't work like that at all.

In reply to Post #215
People that are too busy protecting their idols always ignore what's actually said and repeat what their idols say.


It's not about protecting idols, it's about making sure that when we make an allegation, we absolutely have proof or evidence that it's true, otherwise people's lives get wrecked.

Ever heard of 'innocent until proven guilty?.......

In reply to Post #217
If you had absolute proof and evidence it wouldn't be an allegation now would it. It'd just be a definite, if you wanted to call it as it is, environmental crime.

Plenty of alleged criminals provide their evidence to prove their innocence. Some innocents get found guilty anyway.

In reply to Post #218
My best mates sisters boyfriends 2nd cousins ex wife's dad's dad told me down the pub it's possibly true .. all the proof you need . Guilty by social media🙄

In reply to Post #219
Another example of protecting the idols
Ignore the eyewitness accounts and people in the industry seeing things. Just pretend it's all 8th hand information

I'm not saying it's true. But it doesn't half stack up that way, especially when the people accused have come out and made it obvious there's a cover up.

In reply to Post #220
Don't tell me you know all these so called eye witnesses with all this proof 🤣

Speak to people who fish/fished Carpathia or Farlows

Surely you do have to question why these enormous bumper catches have stopped happening

In reply to Post #221
Literally some in this thread but I doubt you bothered reading it being too busy fanboying

In reply to Post #223
🤡🤡

Hormones
The new covid or brexit..

In reply to Post #218
If you were accused of using hormones, but you weren't - you were in fact simply angling well, on lots of fish, in the right conditions - and you hauled 30-40 carp in 24-36 hours.

If someone made an allegation afterwards on social media, that you were cheating by using hormones when you were not, what "evidence" would you use to clear your name?

In reply to Post #226
Not sure any “angling well” will congregate fish in a featureless swim that's normally a “no hoper” when other equally talented anglers are fishing either side.

And there are ways of getting hormones in the water without injecting carp. Don't you remember those “Phermone X” sprays you could get in the back of the Sunday Sport to arttact the birds? It even work for Richie and Eddie.......

In reply to Post #216
You're speaking here as if what you are saying is fact. It is not.

I think this is all now over.

Time to move on.

In reply to Post #226
If it was as simple as spodding some hormones into a lake mixed in with bait, do you not think that the cat would have been out of the bag a long time ago, and we'd still be sat here with vague stories and unsubstantiated rumours?

Do you not think, all things considered - that if it was that easy, lakes all over the place would be getting emptied by pub-chuckers.

The only place this is happening, is on social media - by people talking nonsense.

In reply to Post #228
You're more than welcome to correct me.

In reply to Post #230
Might be because the substance in question is tightly controlled and not on sale to the general public unless you back door it in from abroad where regulations are broken often. Which was actually one of the initial claims. It was mainly about euro anglers and being imported.

You think it's not true but you can't categorically say it isn't happening. Others think it has/still is been used but they can't categorically say it is.
The ones accused haven't actually flat out said they haven't, just given vague and contradictory statements. The ones that claim to know of it happening haven't been bold enough to name names directly.
People of course are allowed their own opinions.

In reply to Post #231
Do you have the evidence it doesn't work being added to a carrier like soil?

In reply to Post #233
That's why all of the sudden it needs injecting into a fish to get it to work.
Someone else pointed out it can be absorbed through the skin, so if it's in the water column it will be injested. But that spoils the narrative.

if this was worms ( Big If) what quantity and more to the point what cost would this be to the angler in the quantity required to get this reaction and where they be storing the quantities when on the bank.
A kilo of chopped worm goes nowhere.

So to sum up.......no proof, no names and no actual substance name.......we may as well go Back to discussing the best bivvy........

In reply to Post #234
Exactly. The reason it's injected is to make it work quick and in correct amounts to stimulate fish.
Throw the bottle in some worms and spod it out. It's diluted in the water and still does the job but doesn't actually make spawning occur. Just gets them excited a bit.

You can inject vitamins directly in to your body. Most of choose alternative methods of getting in to us. Like eating certain foods, sitting in the sun or a tablet.
Bit naive to think there's only one delivery method isn't it.

I think this is all now over.

Time to move on.

In reply to Post #238
You sound like you're in on it

In reply to Post #239
Tbf a few of this lot saying it's not true, blah blah blah have industry connections and bait deals so yknow.

In reply to Post #236
Still can't read eh 😂

Secret underworld goventment funding Vaccines to kill off the population, for reasons nobody can think of. 100% true.✅️

Anglers using controlled substances to gain lead in competitions for monitary gain. 100% false ❌️

In reply to Post #237
No.

If you take that liquid (Prostglandalin and put it in your bait - it won't do anything, you'll just throw £500 in the bin, and possibly seriously harm yourself or the lake at the same time.

It does absolutely nothing unless injected into the right place in a female carp, by somebody who knows what they're doing.

In reply to Post #231
The soap box you have chosen to stand on is built on the idea that there is no evidence to support that anglers have used hormones to catch more fish.

What evidence do you have to demonstrate that the hormone substance needs to be injected into another fish to have an effect?

You are speaking as if you know facts. But you don't. The information you are regurgitating has as much evidence to support it as the accusations you are defending.

In reply to Post #243
On what evidence do you present this as fact?

In reply to Post #242

In reply to Post #243
But we're all still assuming it's Lutalyse.....

In reply to Post #236
Youre deffo in on it Wayne, deflecting the evidence. Classic Trump playbook 😂

How much are you being paid by the deep bait? What have they got on you?

In reply to Post #243
So if someone who doesn't know what they're doing injects it into the right place, it won't work?

In reply to Post #249
It's like Ibuprofen period pain or whatever - it doesn't just go into the blood stream, it knows where it's going and has to be put in exactly the right place. It's not just ibuprofen. The advert says so.

In reply to Post #244
The soap box you have chosen to stand on is built on the idea that there is no evidence to support that anglers have used hormones to catch more fish.

Correct yes, I have seen no evidence to support the idea that anglers are using hormones to catch fish.

What evidence do you have to demonstrate that the hormone substance needs to be injected into another fish to have an effect?

https://pestsmart.org.au/toolkit-resource/pheromone-attractants-as-a-means-of-carp-control/

Sex-pheromone release in female carp can be triggered by injecting a similar chemical — a synthetic prostaglandin (PGF2α . These females can then be used to lure receptive fish into traps. Direct injection treatment is impractical because PGF2α is metabolised quickly (1–2 hours) and the pheromonal effects are short-lived. Instead, slow release implants loaded with PGF2α can induce pheromone release in female carp for up to two weeks.

In reply to Post #251
OK, and how is that evidence it wouldn't work?

In reply to Post #252
It's evidence it wouldn't work, because the substance we inject (Prostglandalin) isn't attractive to anything because it's not a pheramone, however it causes the female carp to actually produce the sex pheramones that will attract the male, which is why the pest control industry use implants.

If it worked without injections or implants - the pest control industry would just pour the substance directly into the water, it would be far simpler than having to capture a carp and put implants inside it.

Prostglandalin itself, is not an attractive reproductive pheromone, it's a hormone-like substance used by the body to control certain functions, things like, menstruation - they're super complicated, and not understandable unless you have a degree or scientific background in biology.

In reply to Post #253
But on the product warnings is that it can be absorbed through skin and can cause miscarriages due to its affect when absorbed through the skin. So you're saying if it's in water and fish come in to contact with is, through their gills, it won't have any affect at all and won't be absorbed?

Sounds like you know better than the producer of the substances

In reply to Post #253
It's not evidence of anything

In reply to Post #255
If we're in a discussion about evidence, where is the evidence that anglers have been using hormones to catch carp?

Still waiting for it.

In reply to Post #248
The deep bait.......brilliant......

In reply to Post #251
So it metabolises quickly - so you'd say it would need constant replacement. Would regular spodding of it in a carrier work?

In reply to Post #257
Watch your back Wayne......

In reply to Post #251
There are numerous papers and webpages that you can cut and paste from that confirm that, for population control, injecting the hormone into fish can attract other fish. No disagreement there,that wasn't what I was asking.


Where is the evidence that shows that hormone substances can only attract fish if injected into another fish? You are presenting that as a fact in your earlier posts. If so, by your own argument, there must be evidence?

Let's be honest, you are cut and pasting information you don't fully understand, scanning papers you don't fully understand and then presenting information that you don't fully understand as evidence.

In reply to Post #260
Where is the evidence that shows that hormone substances can only attract fish if injected into another fish?

I can throw it right back at you by saying two things;

1- all of the papers relating to the use of this substance, show it being used as an injection or as an implant, to stimulate the carp in producing reproductive hormones.

2- show me the evidence that it's been used by anglers, in a fishing situation to catch carp.

You can try and drive the thing around in circles all you like, but you'll get nowhere unless you present some actual evidence that substantiates the claim.

In reply to Post #260

Surely the onus/burden of proof is on the person or persons making the claim?

If its claimed to be possible then why has no one explained how its possible?

I saw an alien when i was fishing last night.... prove i didnt.

Kangaroo court springs to mind.

In reply to Post #262
Surely the onus is on the person or persons making the claim?

Exactly.

The bottom line is - nobody has provided any evidence at all, it's all just hearsay.

In reply to Post #261
Because that's how the product is designed to be used in the capacity it's meant to be used. But like so many other things, you can use them in other ways can't you. No scientist has ever seen a need to see if it works by chucking it in water because there is no reason to do it when you use it for designed purposes. It's like you don't understand why scientific papers are written.

Nothing to say a few individuals have took it and used trial and error to use it another way. Everything we have is because someone did that at some point in history.

You never did reply to #254. Any reason for that?

In reply to Post #262
It has been explained how it's possible. You just haven't bothered listening. That's a you problem.

In reply to Post #264
But like so many other things, you can use them in other ways can't you.

Where's the evidence that it's been used in other ways, including being used to catch carp?

I've shown how it's used in a pest control scenario, now show how it's being used by anglers where we're not injecting carp.

So far, nobody has.

In reply to Post #266
But is possible to do. So it's possible it has been done.
Basically what you're saying is, go prove it yourselves to show it's possible. Which is stupidity isn't it.

Just fyi my thoughts are not that it 100% has been done. Just that I really wouldn't be surprised if it has based on all the reactions from those accused.

In reply to Post #266
So far you've still not answered #254 either. Which is very funny

In reply to Post #268
I have no idea what would happen, if you put the neat liquid into a lake and the fish absorbed it.

Although you purchase the liquid in tiny amounts (30ml at a time), because it's made to be used in injections, so I don't see how you could practically have a situation where the fish are absorbing it through their gills, it makes no sense.

In reply to Post #269
The fact you don't understand physiology says it all. And the fact you admit you don't know but you're saying it's not possible is hilarious too.

Introduce liquid, it disperses in the water column as ethyl alcohol used as a carrier, fish swim through said area and absorb it during osmosis, as well as from any other part of their body with a blood supply. It then enters their system and has an affect.
It's all very simple really. Same concept of flavours and the other liquid ingredients used in fishing.

Whether you have to use much more than the 30ml vial or because it's concentrated it dilutes enough to not be too much of an environmental issue and induce full on spawning is anyone's guess, well some may actually know if it has been used.

Someone said earlier Ian Russel won't fish matches anymore because of under hand tactics........surely he could name these tactics???

In reply to Post #261
1. You've read every single paper on the subject? Or you've had a bit of a Google?

For the pest control industry it may be the most efficient or cost effective method to inject the substance into another fish. This does not mean that it is the only way that the substance can have an effect. As you said, we have no evidence.

2. I've never said that there are anglers using these substances. I have no idea if hormones have been used or if it is even possible to attract carp using them in a fishing situation. I don't have social media and have never heard of most of the people implicated.

You're missing the point. I'm just calling you out for presenting information as fact that you have no evidence for, while asking for evidence on something else. You're making yourself look like a bit of a wally.

In reply to Post #270
The fact you don't understand physiology says it all. And the fact you admit you don't know but you're saying it's not possible is hilarious too.

Right.

But you don't know either, as far as I'm concerned - there's no evidence that it works, or that it's been tried.

It makes no sense that it would work, and if it did - everybody would be doing it, no way would it be kept under wraps.

In reply to Post #273
Why does it make no sense? The manufacturer warns it can be absorbed through skin. So it can be absorbed through fish skin. Or are they somehow exempt?

So you've actively admitting there's no evidence to say it works and theres no evidence to say it doesn't work. So you just don't know. So you've said a whole lot of nothing and proved nothing whilst doing so.

Why would everyone be doing it? It's a controlled veterinary drug which is by prescription only. Getting hold of it very difficult unless you have an in or know someone willing to risk a criminal offence by giving you it. Using it is for a different use than intended is an environmental crime so why wouldn't it be kept under complete and utter secrecy?
If anyone admits to using it they aren't bothered about losing their media image, they are worried about potential fines or jail time.

In reply to Post #272
You're missing the point. I'm just calling you out for presenting information as fact that you have no evidence for, while asking for evidence on something else.

It is a fact - that there's no evidence that using Prostglandalin directly with feed, or in the water is in any way attractive to carp.

It is a fact - that the only evidence of it being used sucessfully with fish - is as an injection/implant in carp to stimulate a female to produce reprodutive pheromones.

In reply to Post #275


This is brain damage. I can't tell if you're on a wind up or just not the full ticket

This is basic stuff. In order for something to be accepted as fact it must be able to be tested and proven as such. What you are demonstrating is a lack of evidence to the contrary. These are not the same thing.

In reply to Post #276
Just to help untie your brain a little:

There's no evidence that using this substance directly as a feed additive, results in it being attractive to carp.

There is no evidence that it has been tested in such a way.
There is no mechanism or theory that would explain it working in such a way,
There is no evidence that it's been used by anglers to catch carp with rod/line/bait.

There IS evidence of it being used in the pest control industry, as a method of stimulating a carp via injection or implant, into producing specific reproductive hormones that attract other carp.

In reply to Post #274
Why does it make no sense? The manufacturer warns it can be absorbed through skin. So it can be absorbed through fish skin. Or are they somehow exempt?

Because the substance in question (Prostglandalin) isn't an attractive reproductive hormone, it's a hormone that is used to trigger the female carp to produce a different set of chemicals (pheromones) which are attractive to carp.

The other problem is that if you read through the data for how this is used in pest control, it's not a simple case of just injecting a carp and putting it into a trap then netting the lake.

It's a very slow time consuming process, the lure fish (implanted females) need to be in the water for a long time (weeks), the nature of the water and other factors can have a serious effect - there are only certain times of the year (around spawning) when it actually works at all.

And last but not least - most of the time, the fish it attracts are sexually immature adolescent fish, it doesn't work with adult carp.

So this idea that someone is turning up at Linear - spombing some of this stuff into B2 and hauling 30 carp in 24 hours, it just doesn't work, doesn't make sense when you compare it to reality.

In reply to Post #278
But you don't actually know if it would work or not. So it might make little sense but you can't 100% say it wouldn't. Most things in science don't make sense until they're discovered.
What's to say the worms being used a carrier don't take it on and produce their pheromones which attract the fish to the area?

You do know people are entitled to their opinion and because you can't be 100% sure or show the evidence to prove it hasn't been used, that no matter how loud you shout, you can't force people to change their opinion right?

In reply to Post #279
You do know people are entitled to their opinion and because you can't be 100% sure or show the evidence to prove it hasn't been used, that no matter how loud you shout, you can't force people to change their opinion right?

The problem is that these 'opinions' are messing up the lives of likely totally innocent people, ruining their reputations, on the basis of nonsensical unfounded allegations - which are almost certainly a product of sour grapes and jealousy.

Allegations which are being created and propagated by people who have no evidence, likely don't know what they're talking about - and worse of all, have no idea of the damage they're doing.

In reply to Post #280
But you have no idea if they're innocent. Only on the science you went looking for to disprove that it would work. But you didn't disprove it. Maybe get hold of some and try it yourself and see if it works? A tank tested environment. Just like the science you've read about. Come back and tell us the results. That's the only way you can claim it doesn't work in the way people are thinking it could.

No ones life has been ruined. All the ones that had accusations on them still have their sponsorships and earn money in the industry. They never bothered coming out instantly to disprove it, because when they did they made it worse by being quite obviously coy about something. If it is worms. Just come out and say it and show it and it all goes away doesn't it.

In reply to Post #281
Innocent until proven guilty.

In reply to Post #282
yep I agree, but even our criminal justice system has put people innocent people in prison based on what people have said and what it looks like, because they didnt prove themselves innocent.

End of the day you arent going to make everyone think your way so youre wasting your time trying. Especially when you look like a wally doing it.

In reply to Post #283
but even our criminal justice system has put people innocent people in prison based on what people have said and what it looks like, because they didnt prove themselves innocent.

So what?

Do you think that should give people a license, to go around propagating spurious unfounded allegations against named individuals, without any proof or evidence?

In reply to Post #284
Didn't say that did I, just stated a fact. It happens, plenty of innocent people get locked up because of it. Loads of guilty people get away with things because there's no evidence against them too.

People have said they know stuff but don't want to release that to the public, that's on them. End of the day you cant prove they did use it because its in the past and any evidence is gone now. Doesn't mean you cant think that it has been used and be wary of what people are doing and saying in the future.

If you want to fully trust what people tell you then that's up to you. Not everyone is choosing to do that and it's something you've got to come to terms with and get over.

In reply to Post #285
People have said they know stuff but don't want to release that to the public, that's on them.

The end result of all of this nonsense, is that it has been released to the public - in this very thread, if you scroll down, specific individual people have been named directly.

All of on the basis of no evidence, no proof, nothing whatsoever - other than conjecture.

I don't think that's fair at all.

In reply to Post #285
If you want to fully trust what people tell you then that's up to you

What like "Trust the science".........

In reply to Post #286
sadly life isnt fair. People have seen what they've seen and told others so others can make up their mind about it in whichever way they choose.

Those individuals named are all still earning money, all still fishing, all still have sponsorships, all still have platforms to engage on. The days keep ticking by and we are all still here.

It's been a long time since the initial scandal, it was forgotten about, why on earth they decided to bring it back up is beyond me.

In reply to Post #288
sadly life isnt fair. People have seen what they've seen and told others so others can make up their mind about it in whichever way they choose.

Life isn't fair - but that's no excuse to propagate stories (which are almost certainly false), have no evidence, no proof - that relate to named individuals, that will have negatively impact them.

That's simply callous, disrespectful - and frankly stupid.

It's also potentially slanderous and could easily result in people being dragged into court.

In reply to Post #289
An attitude like that is how many awful awful people got away with doing awful things for a very long time.

In reply to Post #289
everyone is entitled to believe what they want. You believe it cant be true, thats you. I believe it potentially is possible to use it, thats me. Others believe certain individuals have used it, thats them.
You cant force everyone to agree with you and think the same as you. Sooner you realise that, the easier your life will be

In reply to Post #290
An attitude like what?

Refusing to name or propagate a story from social media due to a lack of proof and evidence, out of respect that the people involved are probably innocent?

I think my version of common sense, is better than yours.

In reply to Post #287
I blame Brexit....

I also think that anyone that believes in any religion is a complete F**kwit. Where's the proof?

In reply to Post #293
You never heard of Jesus, raised from the dead, walked on water and used hormones to catch carp

In reply to Post #294
That Lazarus guy was dodgy as well. Those in the know reckon he was a benefits cheat

In reply to Post #278
And last but not least - most of the time, the fish it attracts are sexually immature adolescent fish, it doesn't work with adult carp

What is your source for this information ? The studies which I have read state the exact opposite and so it's the sexually mature, spermiated males which are attracted to the pheromone cue, often accompanied by other adult females in the vicinity. It doesn't make biological sense for sexually immature fish to seek out a spawning cue.

In reply to Post #294
I don't care who is dad his he's not walking through my swim

By the way anyone got any spare hormones for my worms

In reply to Post #296
https://pestsmart.org.au/case_studies/carp-pheromone-attractant-trials/

A total of 393 carp were captured during this trial, however only seven were sexually mature.

The Lake Cargelligo trial, while successfully trapping over 6000 juvenile carp, only captured two adult carp

The problem with it seems to be, that there are a huge number of varibales - sometimes it's effective and sometimes it isn't.

A lot of it seems to boil down to specific conditions, it isn't simply a case of putting this into a lake and it just works.

Which is why I think it's a load of nonsense, that people are spodding this stuff into a lake with their bait, and hauling fish for 24 hours - it doesn't add up.

In reply to Post #298
It would seem that the field trials don't match the laboratory trials done by Lim and Sorensen. Seems we're back to square one then, wondering what the secret liquid is Lol.

In reply to Post #299
None of the trials use the product in question. They use PGF2 directly seemingly when you read them. Which has no bearing on this product being used as its got multiple ingredients, with levels of pgf2 for large livestock, which are much bigger than fish. For all we know there could be a magic chemical which is one of the ingredients that is the holy grail and we are all focussed on the hormone element.

Can't believe this Hormone thread got resurrected as such.


I remember all hell breaking loose in the World Carp Angling Championships about 20 years ago when an obscure unknown team from Croatia (off memory) out of the blue totally annihilated the so called “Expert Teams” from the likes of the UK and France in the match.
Somehow someone let slip that a Horse Hormone had been used, I remember reading all about it in Carp talk, and the event organisers were clueless as to what action was to be taken.



Then a program was on TV showing how none indigenous species were being removed from Australian river systems – the removal team would pick a suitable area, slowly release a hormone that mimics the one released by female fish when it's spawning time to attract the males. All the male fish in the area would then make a bee line to the source of the hormone; the female fish would tag along too wondering what all the fuss was about. After a set time Nets were then placed across the river down & upstream, boats with electro units would then go in – indigenous species got thrown back into the river over the nets, none indigenous got culled on the spot (Carp mainly)



There's a big scientific write up on the whole process on line somewhere.

In reply to Post #301
I remember that too Keith, must admit to being a bit amused by the win at the Worldies, all the great and good from England etc thinking what the hell

It'll keep coming around as long as there's jealousy in angling, beit a trait of the person or financially motivated, or worse just for likes...honestly.

So therefore the fish will be releasing a pheromone to attract the males.


https://acrobat.adobe.com/id/urn:aaid:sc:EU:d664e9fd-723a-4ab9-bc9a-a76f43f7dd1e


Easily synthesized apparently and readily available as a quick look online would prove.

In reply to Post #303
This is the funny thing I noticed. The word hormones very early on got banded around and it stuck. All of the press coverage of the scandal has talked about hormones. They have asked experts if they think people are using hormones and they have said no, they have said hormones won't work etc. They have focused on the word hormone, just like the way Tom focused on injecting carp.

The press have never followed up with a question about if there is any kind of chemical that could be used.

Hormones, pheromones, drugs, chemicals it's all just semantics to us lay people.

In reply to Post #304
Probably all the sperm from the fanboys. God knows there's enough of them!

In reply to Post #305
You've nailed it. Sperm contains prostaglandins. Hand Job Pop Ups ! Don't come knockin' when the bivvy' s rockin' 😂