Can't think it's a good thing Cypography putting a free video out showing Slim Jelley dumping carrier bags full of rock salt into the swim... 
Didn't we go through this once before 15 years ago when Danny Fairbrass was putting a kilo of table salt into his munga?
Didn't we go through this once before 15 years ago when Danny Fairbrass was putting a kilo of table salt into his munga?
In reply to Post #1
Been argued time and time again. The general view from people in yhe know, is that the amount of salt you would need to put into a lake to make the slightest bit of difference is literal dump truck loads.
Been argued time and time again. The general view from people in yhe know, is that the amount of salt you would need to put into a lake to make the slightest bit of difference is literal dump truck loads.
In reply to Post #2
Surely as responsible anglers we should all refrain from putting anything detrimental into our waters ?
Surely as responsible anglers we should all refrain from putting anything detrimental into our waters ?
In reply to Post #3
Carp may be happy enough in brackish water but if I ran a lake I'd be minded to ban adding salt. Clearly depends on the drainage and size of a lake but if everyone was chucking in rock salt like that think you could pretty quickly affect the salinity of a water. The carp may be ok but you could be killing off plants, other fish species and naturals. All for what, to maybe make it easier to catch a carp? Does salt really work any more than any other bait? - even if it does I don't think it's worth it imo.
Carp may be happy enough in brackish water but if I ran a lake I'd be minded to ban adding salt. Clearly depends on the drainage and size of a lake but if everyone was chucking in rock salt like that think you could pretty quickly affect the salinity of a water. The carp may be ok but you could be killing off plants, other fish species and naturals. All for what, to maybe make it easier to catch a carp? Does salt really work any more than any other bait? - even if it does I don't think it's worth it imo.
Shelley sponsored by Saxo .
The thing is ,one angler throwing in large amounts in a 10+ acre lake is not going to have a detrimental affect .But having a dozen or so angler doing the same on a weedy club lake of 2 or 3 acres is going to alter the water starting off by creating 'dead' zones around those big rocks of salt .
In reply to Post #1
I was studying research by various institutions on the effects of salt in the carps diet ages ago.
In terms of food amounts, 1.5% of the ingested food allowed best growth rate.
Any higher and the body fat content increased, and growth decreased. The 2% diet level of salt resulted in decreased digestibility and faster evacuation of food.
Now this is in food, meals made for fish. Adding salt to particles water may or may not be beneficial, this was not studied; the studies were for fish growth for food, a number of species.
I was studying research by various institutions on the effects of salt in the carps diet ages ago.
In terms of food amounts, 1.5% of the ingested food allowed best growth rate.
Any higher and the body fat content increased, and growth decreased. The 2% diet level of salt resulted in decreased digestibility and faster evacuation of food.
Now this is in food, meals made for fish. Adding salt to particles water may or may not be beneficial, this was not studied; the studies were for fish growth for food, a number of species.
In reply to Post #7
I also saw a (very old) study on flavours / attractors for carp. It was only one study, but salt had no effect at all. Not saying that will always be the case though.
I also saw a (very old) study on flavours / attractors for carp. It was only one study, but salt had no effect at all. Not saying that will always be the case though.
In reply to Post #3
Some people who keep Koi add salt to the water as its very beneficial. Not sure why it could be bad for carp in lakes?
Some people who keep Koi add salt to the water as its very beneficial. Not sure why it could be bad for carp in lakes?
In reply to Post #9
It's used I think to kill parasites
It's used I think to kill parasites
In reply to Post #9
Nicks right, it's used to kill certain parasites but not all, it also helps to promote the mucus growth. It has to be done in a controlled fashion though, too much can be very detrimental and must be totally dissolved before adding to the pond, a pile of salt can cause chemical burns to a fish if it lays on it. It has to be a certain type of salt too, cooking I think as others can contain harmfull additives. I think it is usually recommended that once you're on top of the problem you should start regular water changes to dilute the salt content.
Post 8- I remember seeing that or a similar study, where salt was not deemed to be an attractor.
Nicks right, it's used to kill certain parasites but not all, it also helps to promote the mucus growth. It has to be done in a controlled fashion though, too much can be very detrimental and must be totally dissolved before adding to the pond, a pile of salt can cause chemical burns to a fish if it lays on it. It has to be a certain type of salt too, cooking I think as others can contain harmfull additives. I think it is usually recommended that once you're on top of the problem you should start regular water changes to dilute the salt content.
Post 8- I remember seeing that or a similar study, where salt was not deemed to be an attractor.
In reply to Post #9
Do they just throw it in or they calculate amount etc? Peroxide is also used... Should we spomb it out?
Do they just throw it in or they calculate amount etc? Peroxide is also used... Should we spomb it out?
In reply to Post #12
https://cuttlebrookkoifarm.co.uk/blogs/articles/when-and-how-to-use-salt
https://cuttlebrookkoifarm.co.uk/blogs/articles/when-and-how-to-use-salt
In reply to Post #12
It is calculated, as too high a dose is toxic. Hydrogen peroxide is used as a method of algae control. The often quoted method of adding barley straw creates hydrogen peroxide as it rots down in sunlight. Which helps kill off algae.
It is calculated, as too high a dose is toxic. Hydrogen peroxide is used as a method of algae control. The often quoted method of adding barley straw creates hydrogen peroxide as it rots down in sunlight. Which helps kill off algae.
In reply to Post #12
A small 1 acre lake, averaging 3ft deep would contain over 4 million litres of water. It would take 40,000kg of salt dumped in to raise the salt level to 1%.
Salt may well stay in the water against evaporation, but it will still be exported out of the lake through living organisms, as well as run off. I just can't see it ever being an issue?
A small 1 acre lake, averaging 3ft deep would contain over 4 million litres of water. It would take 40,000kg of salt dumped in to raise the salt level to 1%.
Salt may well stay in the water against evaporation, but it will still be exported out of the lake through living organisms, as well as run off. I just can't see it ever being an issue?
In reply to Post #15
Jesus mate, do you sell salt or something?
I get what you're saying about the concentraiton, but dumping massive lumps in a swim is not the same. Too many people doing it, at the wrong time, could end up counterproductive.
Jesus mate, do you sell salt or something?
I get what you're saying about the concentraiton, but dumping massive lumps in a swim is not the same. Too many people doing it, at the wrong time, could end up counterproductive.
In reply to Post #16
As anglers there are probably far worse things we do. The topic has been brought up loads of times in various podcasts, and people who are in the know, say it will never be an issue. There's probably a lot worse ingredients in baits people are shoveling into lakes, I just think this is an absolute none issue.
The clip OP is talking about is from Cypography well over a year ago. I've personally used rock salt myself, but never found it to be any use. I've never seen anyone else on the bank doing it, let alone tonnes and tonnes of it being used. Has anyone else?
As anglers there are probably far worse things we do. The topic has been brought up loads of times in various podcasts, and people who are in the know, say it will never be an issue. There's probably a lot worse ingredients in baits people are shoveling into lakes, I just think this is an absolute none issue.
The clip OP is talking about is from Cypography well over a year ago. I've personally used rock salt myself, but never found it to be any use. I've never seen anyone else on the bank doing it, let alone tonnes and tonnes of it being used. Has anyone else?
In reply to Post #15
Not a chance any amount of anglers could dump enough salt in to affect the salinity of a lake. It's a fair question to ask why they're doing it though.
Not a chance any amount of anglers could dump enough salt in to affect the salinity of a lake. It's a fair question to ask why they're doing it though.
In reply to Post #15
Whilst I don't think it will ever be an issue, if a pond ever reached 1% salinity it would be pretty sterile. Carp can tolerate up to 0.5%, not sure about long term, but water plants much less.
Whilst I don't think it will ever be an issue, if a pond ever reached 1% salinity it would be pretty sterile. Carp can tolerate up to 0.5%, not sure about long term, but water plants much less.
I must admit that I don't have a clue about the environmental damage large amounts of salt could have. Having seen the video in question, I must admit that it just doesn't sit right.
I do know however that many places are banning the use of salt on icy roads and footpaths for environmental reasons.
Their argument is;
"Road salt gets into the soil with the seepage water and accumulates in the groundwater. The increased salt content in the soil is not good for trees and plants, as important nutrients are washed out and further absorption is made more difficult. As a result, plants can no longer be adequately supplied and slowly die."
Is there any difference in the chemical makeup of what is used on the roads and what anglers use?
I do know however that many places are banning the use of salt on icy roads and footpaths for environmental reasons.
Their argument is;
"Road salt gets into the soil with the seepage water and accumulates in the groundwater. The increased salt content in the soil is not good for trees and plants, as important nutrients are washed out and further absorption is made more difficult. As a result, plants can no longer be adequately supplied and slowly die."
Is there any difference in the chemical makeup of what is used on the roads and what anglers use?
Agreed it would take a lot of salt to change the salinity of a lake, however if you spod in a tight spot you can kill the spot, so no weed or natural food will grow for quite a while.
Imagine the impact of lots of anglers doing that and the effect on the lake.
Bathing koi in salt is for killing parasites it also anaesthetises them and de stresses them to an extent to enable other treatments, but you don't keep them in a salt bath for very long
Imagine the impact of lots of anglers doing that and the effect on the lake.
Bathing koi in salt is for killing parasites it also anaesthetises them and de stresses them to an extent to enable other treatments, but you don't keep them in a salt bath for very long
I really cant see the problem with the amount there spodding, I've used salt before and cant say I've seen any differences.
Carp do and can live in brackish waters.
Carp do and can live in brackish waters.
In reply to Post #19
As you say 1% salinity would make for a sterile environment.
Even 0.1% can affect some plants.
A concentration of 0.5% can be used as a salt treatment for a sick carp, but only for a short term, 5 to 10 minutes perhaps.
As you say 1% salinity would make for a sterile environment.
Even 0.1% can affect some plants.
A concentration of 0.5% can be used as a salt treatment for a sick carp, but only for a short term, 5 to 10 minutes perhaps.
In reply to Post #23
0.1% would still be 4000kg in a really shallow 1 acre pond though. That's a lot of Jim Shelly's.
0.1% would still be 4000kg in a really shallow 1 acre pond though. That's a lot of Jim Shelly's.
In reply to Post #22
At a maximum level of 6 parts per thousand, anything above that increases mortality. At 6ppt growth rates are decreased.
They also have to have a gradual increase in salinity to this level, otherwise stress is noted.
At a maximum level of 6 parts per thousand, anything above that increases mortality. At 6ppt growth rates are decreased.
They also have to have a gradual increase in salinity to this level, otherwise stress is noted.
In reply to Post #24
Trouble is unless there is a .mechanism, either natural or man-made to remove the salt it will continue to build up. People don't live as long as most lakes.
Trouble is unless there is a .mechanism, either natural or man-made to remove the salt it will continue to build up. People don't live as long as most lakes.
In reply to Post #26
What is the half-life of salt?
What is the half-life of salt?
In reply to Post #25
There's carp in the brackish water at oulton broad, i for one dont see the problem with adding salt.
There's carp in the brackish water at oulton broad, i for one dont see the problem with adding salt.
In reply to Post #14
Exactly so it is not up to avarage joe to chuck it in.
Exactly so it is not up to avarage joe to chuck it in.
In reply to Post #25
I did my dissertation on salinity and growth rates. Found that 2ppt was the optimum for juvenile carp. Beyond this it declined to lower than freshwater levels.
My conclusion is that the increased sodium in the water allowed for easier osmoregulation, reducing energy usage for the process, thus having more surplus energy to store.
The issue with the excess salt on one spot is that it will kill off the spot. Plants won't grow and inverts will die/not go there. This could take years to recover. However the reasoning behind it is that the carp will seek this salt out as it benefits them. Not as a good source but for bodily processes. The water will be slightly saltier here and they'll likely rub on it too.
Similar dumping a load of mineral rich clay in a lake that lacks it. You'll create a point of interest for the fish which struggle to find these minerals in their natural environment. There is a reason carp rub in clay. It's not for fun, it's to absorb minerals from it for health benefits.
I did my dissertation on salinity and growth rates. Found that 2ppt was the optimum for juvenile carp. Beyond this it declined to lower than freshwater levels.
My conclusion is that the increased sodium in the water allowed for easier osmoregulation, reducing energy usage for the process, thus having more surplus energy to store.
The issue with the excess salt on one spot is that it will kill off the spot. Plants won't grow and inverts will die/not go there. This could take years to recover. However the reasoning behind it is that the carp will seek this salt out as it benefits them. Not as a good source but for bodily processes. The water will be slightly saltier here and they'll likely rub on it too.
Similar dumping a load of mineral rich clay in a lake that lacks it. You'll create a point of interest for the fish which struggle to find these minerals in their natural environment. There is a reason carp rub in clay. It's not for fun, it's to absorb minerals from it for health benefits.
Does Salt not kill off Invertebrates like Swan Mussels, Shrimps, Leeches, Snails and Bloodworm beds etc.... ?
I know it kills off water plants like Water Lilies, in fact any that have a Rhizome.
Seems like a act of sheer stupidity to me.
I know it kills off water plants like Water Lilies, in fact any that have a Rhizome.
Seems like a act of sheer stupidity to me.
In reply to Post #31
I've been going back through this again, from studies on using salt to kill weeds, to road salt getting into water systems.
0.1% of salt in the water body is enough to do long term damage, reducing fertility of various water creature.
Sorry for the American spelling of litre, but this was in relation to using salt to kill weeds in the water.
A commonly cited dosage is using 1 gram of salt per liter of water, but studies have found that 860 mg (which is less than 1 gram) per liter is considered toxic and stressful to aquatic life, including fish.
I've been going back through this again, from studies on using salt to kill weeds, to road salt getting into water systems.
0.1% of salt in the water body is enough to do long term damage, reducing fertility of various water creature.
Sorry for the American spelling of litre, but this was in relation to using salt to kill weeds in the water.
A commonly cited dosage is using 1 gram of salt per liter of water, but studies have found that 860 mg (which is less than 1 gram) per liter is considered toxic and stressful to aquatic life, including fish.
In reply to Post #32
Not sure if I've done this calculation correctly. But a lake measuring 100m by 100m with a depth of 3 meters is 2.5 acres in size & contains 30 million litres of water. If I times 30 million by 1 gram and convert that to kg, it equates to 30,000kg. So you would need to put 30,000kg of salt into a 2.5acre lake to make it toxic
Not sure if I've done this calculation correctly. But a lake measuring 100m by 100m with a depth of 3 meters is 2.5 acres in size & contains 30 million litres of water. If I times 30 million by 1 gram and convert that to kg, it equates to 30,000kg. So you would need to put 30,000kg of salt into a 2.5acre lake to make it toxic
In reply to Post #33
I'm sure the sheep on some water may come close to that amount over a season
I hope there will be enough left for my fish and chips on Fridays
I'm sure the sheep on some water may come close to that amount over a season
I hope there will be enough left for my fish and chips on Fridays
In reply to Post #33
LINK
It's not equally dissolved across the whole lake though, that's my point. He's chucking in lumps up to about 1/2kg in size.
LINK
It's not equally dissolved across the whole lake though, that's my point. He's chucking in lumps up to about 1/2kg in size.
In reply to Post #35
Do you know the force required to dissolve that size block. It'll be there a long long time. The release of sodium in to the water will be slow. It doesn't just fizz and dissolve instantly leaving a huge salt dead zone. A slow and steady release results in a constant beacon of attraction for the fish. Attracted for the additional sodium in the location to utilise it for osmoregulation.
A dead zone is more likely created using small granules en masse. It'd be worth some underwater footage of a big lump of salt and how long it takes to dissolve down to nothing. Stick a probe in the water above and test the salinity in the locality too. I'd hazard a guess that a 1kg lump lasting a good while!
Do you know the force required to dissolve that size block. It'll be there a long long time. The release of sodium in to the water will be slow. It doesn't just fizz and dissolve instantly leaving a huge salt dead zone. A slow and steady release results in a constant beacon of attraction for the fish. Attracted for the additional sodium in the location to utilise it for osmoregulation.
A dead zone is more likely created using small granules en masse. It'd be worth some underwater footage of a big lump of salt and how long it takes to dissolve down to nothing. Stick a probe in the water above and test the salinity in the locality too. I'd hazard a guess that a 1kg lump lasting a good while!
Some anglers use salt and rate it but i must say myself i dont use it because its never seemed to do anything as far as catching goes.
In reply to Post #37
They talked about salt on a recent Baitworks podcast, Mark had found no evidence in his tank testing that carp were remotely triggered to feed by salt. Maybe carp do seek it out to get rid of leaches etc on them from the winter, beyond that it feels like it's another good way to waste some money.
They talked about salt on a recent Baitworks podcast, Mark had found no evidence in his tank testing that carp were remotely triggered to feed by salt. Maybe carp do seek it out to get rid of leaches etc on them from the winter, beyond that it feels like it's another good way to waste some money.
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