What are peoples thoughts on today's shelf life vs freezer baits.

I see company's taking the all shelf life approach a lot more now in the current market.
Would you class a shelf life bait that uses soluble preservatives like potassium sorbate or glycerin as effective as a freezer bait once submerged.

I've tested a bait with both methods and the break down time of the bait vs the identical freezer bait to be near enough the same.

Also on the flip side do you see freezing baits potentially harmful to Ingrediants within the bait like milk proteins for example.

Just interested on others thoughts

In reply to Post #1
For years I'd only use freezer baits. But in the last five years I've completely changed my mind. I've got 5kg of frozens hanging around in my freezer and when they are gone then it's shelf life only for me now.

I think the difference these days is so small it's not worth worrying about

In reply to Post #2
Agreed.......that said there is some baits I want and they are only available frozen.......

In reply to Post #2
I was the same but after experiment and doing like for like tests there's no real difference. The only thing i suppose that may cause concern is taste. As humans we don't or may not notice it within our food but carp may.

In reply to Post #3
CELL LAD!

In reply to Post #3
Hydro k

In reply to Post #1
shelf lifes for a couple of years now.
they didn't let me down and compared to the freezers I don't notice any difference!

In reply to Post #7
I'd say 8/10 anglers I talk to now use shelf life. Even on lakes where here banned the owners wouldn't have a clue.

In reply to Post #1
Cost for me. I pay £6 a kilo from my chap whereas most shelfies are over £10 a kilo.

In reply to Post #9
Really

Don't understand the large price difference. Yes it cost marginally more to make shelf life bait and then storage for it to dry. But it's very minimal.

Sorbate for example £40 for 5kg that's 8p for cost of 10g into a Kg mix. Or if they reduce the egg content and add the sorbate to 50ml of water then the cost is the same.

I see company's do the same with 12mm baits or below, which is more understandable if the bait is hand rolled but machine rolled i don't get.

In reply to Post #9
Lol, the preservative cost only €0.5 per kg boiliemix. So, this would be around 0.3-0.4 euro per kg boilies.

Also don't forget you need to pay the electricity bill of your freezer.

In reply to Post #9
I don't know any baits that are more expensive just because they are shelflife. And who on earth pays £10 a kilo??

In reply to Post #12
Ignore me! Completely misread the thread.

I have a cold!

In reply to Post #1
I can only vouch for the two companies shelf-life baits that I've used and they are so much softer these days, the older ones were very hard, some were even dusty, they still caught fish though.
It appears companies these days use minimum amounts of preservatives and probably dry them for longer.

If egg is used in the mix then both freezer & shelf-life baits will be locked up to some degree, it might take a little longer for the shelf-life baits to start breaking down but who knows, from my observations the fish get straight on them so they must be emitting some signals immediately.

Convenience for me is the biggest thing, ideally I would use bait after making it, no freezing or anything, straight to the lake and straight in the lake.

The only benefit of a shelf life over a freezer bait is convenience to the angler and manufacturer.
Nothing else.

In reply to Post #1
I think the Mainline freezer only baits are so due to the inclusion of active enzymes.

In reply to Post #15
Totally agree. I only use freezer baits and believe that they have to be superior to shelf life's. Interestingly I do not know a single angler that uses shelf lifes and whilst I acknowledge that they may, in many cases, have improved, they do not appeal to me.

In reply to Post #17
would be interesting to see how many "freezer" baits are actually just the same baits as shelflife but packed in different bags... I also believe frozen only rules on majority venues in france is what is making this frozen trade still going.

In reply to Post #18
I agree with this, why produce two different products, why have the expense of buying and using freezers.

I know what I would do if I was the owner of a company.

Good news for home bait makers who use genuine freezer baits, we know our baits are different.

In reply to Post #1
No Cons at all IMO, Frozen was better in the days of chemicals etc but SL nowadays are great......

In reply to Post #20
Agree with Wayne. I've always been a fresh/freezer bait user and been using DNA Baits for last 5-6 years now. I lost the use of a freezer about 3 years ago which coincided with DNA bringing out their ‘shelflife' baits. I've been on them ever since and they are exactly the same as far as I can tell and certainly not noticed any difference in catch rates. I have use of a freezer again, but I will only use the ‘shelflife' baits now and freezer is for particle

In reply to Post #21
Bit of glycerin and potassium never hurt anyone......

Let's face it, a lot of our food contains Sorbate, and some people seem to be more worried about a fish's health then their own - especially when you see what they chuck down their necks! A lot of dips contain glycerin anyway

In reply to Post #18
Surely a bait with no preservatives would require a good 3-4 days air drying to even last a few months. This would make them very firm. I can use 10g of sorbate per Kg and air set for 24 hours and have a soft bait that's good for 6 months.

In reply to Post #22
As the bait maker I asked about the preservatives used said to me " it's what Mr Kipling puts in his cakes". I've not noticed any drop in catch rate since using shelf life's.

In reply to Post #23
Is that not what essential do to their shelf lifes? Little preservative but more drying hence why they are like marbles?

In reply to Post #25
I couldn't tell you sorry. Not that a hard baits a bad thing. Once submerged it will soon soften up

In reply to Post #26
Wouldn't exactly call it a good thing. The softer the better

In reply to Post #27
They have there place a firm bait. But i like a fairly soft bait also for most of my fishing.

IMO freezer bait is in no way at all better than shelf life anymore, back in the day yes but not anymore and anyone who says so is only saying so because they are just stuck in there ways

Would be interesting to see poll made lol
Can you create a poll on this site

As a side
People say freezer burn makes the bait different
So would you prefer freezer burn or shelf life lol

I really miss the days of this forum where the majority of the bait section contributors either actually knew what they were on about OR actually listened to those who did know what they were on about.
The amount of part truths, missed points, and ill-informed opinions on the bait section these days completely ruins this part of the forum.
Reading through these narrow-minded comments, it's really not worth contributing
Tough to change closed minds.

In reply to Post #31
Care to expand on that Sam?

Are you saying fresh frozen is superior? If so, how do you come to that conclusion?

I've made and used both shelf life a freezer baits. My current bait is OK in its shelf life form but I do catch more with the freezer version. They look, feel and taste the same to me. The breakdown time in water is the same. But freezer versions just seem better.

The above is based on using the same bait for 10 years or so.

I am working on a new bait, a few things I am keen to try plus two of the previous ingredients are just not available any more. This new bait has some active ingredients which are stopped when frozen and killed off completely when preserved so I won't even try a shelf life version.

So to me some shelf life baits are fine but not all. As jo-public buying them in a bag I would have know way of knowing one from the other.

In reply to Post #31
Also interested to know. You clearly know more than most of us.

In reply to Post #31
Maybe the problem is people thinking they are better than others or no more

In reply to Post #31
Come on, he's got a podcast, he must know what he's talking about

In reply to Post #35
To be fair he does know a lot about bait, i will admit my bait knowledge is limited but one thing i do know is there are certain things i have used in bait that lose there effectiveness if the bait is preserved( with the preservatives i know of) but remain if the bait is frozen.
So for me and the bait i make it will always be frozen and i'm not stuck in my ways for doing so, it is better.

In reply to Post #31
Do enlighten us...

In reply to Post #37
Surely that's the same for freezing and some things become less effective?

In reply to Post #33
What preservative are you using?

Sorry fellas, I was a bit harsh to be fair!
My mistake, please accept my apology

For what it's worth- I went through a phase of using shelf life's but I just can't get away from the fact that they are a compromise.
Some of the best baits I've used are at their very best when they are “on the turn” or “sweated up”, unfortunately you can't get that with a shelf life.

Also, some ingredients are unable to do their thing (that's science talk) when in a preserved bundle. This is certainly not just limited to enzymes (make of those what you will).

I'm also dubious of how long these baits stay on the bottom of the lake bed. There's been numerous cases of big beds of uneaten shelf life bait just sitting on the lake bed in limbo somewhere between not rotting down and not being edible to fish. This isn't just the older style shelf life's either

Something else worth noting is that the ingredients in shelf life's just sit there aging (not in a good way) which affects their potency. Freezing after a little drying means all those precious ingredients stay in tact as much as possible.

PS whether I have a podcast or not is totally irrelevant.
I am still allowed an opinion surely! I'm not a bait guru and I certainly don't need to be.

In reply to Post #41
Although I make most of my bait every year I buy a batch or two from other bait companies just to have a play with.

Interesting that you say about turned baits. They seem popular again at the moment with some of the Korda guys recently talking about there baits being at the best when on the turn. I've never stopped using them since they were last popular in the late 80's (richworth freezer baits).

About 3 or 4 years ago I had a shelf life bait that would turn just like a freezer bait (covered in white spots that seemed to be sugar). It took a lot longer to turn, about 3-4 weeks in my garage or 3-4 months in my bait fridge. I am not going to name brands (and it wasn't a big brand) but he has now changed this bait and the last batch I had from him didn't turn the same. I have kept 1/2/kg in the bottom of my fridge for over 2 years now to see if it turns and it still hasn't

In reply to Post #41
I certainly can't get my Enzyme baits to work properly in either a shelf life or air-dried state.
In my view, it probably doesn't matter a great deal on day ticket venues/puddles/overseas commercials, as those venues see so much bait and are heavily stocked so the fish are reliant on bait.
However, on lower stock, bigger syndicate/club waters where you are engaging in a campaign, I've yet to see any form of shelf like bait feature in the armoury of any of the top rods over the last 30 years on loads of waters. In fact it's completely the opposite. Too many examples.. But from last year, a good angler, on a BCSG water, decided to use Quest shelf life's.....he did not even have a bite all year....

In reply to Post #42
Funny you say that- it was Richworths that I first used “turned”! Although it was more recent than the 80's for me. Ive done it with certain baits ever since. Makes a big difference in my opinion.
I think everything comes and goes in and out of fashion. Most things at least. The riser leads are something that doesn't ever seem to come back in to fashion (although I could have missed this). Those are great. Same can be said for turning freezer baits

In reply to Post #43
Great points there Roland, and I've just realised who you are!

If shelf life baits are so bad at attracting fish, why do 1000s a year get caught on single Airball pop ups?

I'm not knocking anyone who will only use frozen. I was fanatical about frozen bait for years, invested in big chest freezers, then decided even frozen wasn't good so went through a stage of rolling my own and invested in rolling tables and a compressor and a cox gun and burcos etc to take it all fresh.

Now I use modern shelf life's and it's made absolutely bugger all difference to my catch rate.

In reply to Post #46
That's irrelevant for me Wayne (the airball thing). Carp don't ingest pop ups, they're not food. If we put a bed of baits out with a similar content (but sinking) I'm sure we wouldn't get far.

In reply to Post #46
Not saying they are all bad Mr Rex, certainly seem some good ones in recent times. Chap on my Reading syndicate has done pretty well with one of the DNA fishmeal ones, certainly a good bait, mixing shelf and frozen.

But there's good.....and there's very good .....

In reply to Post #48
>But there's good.....and there's very good ....

Wot he said

But how much damage can freezing also cause to a bait especially one with soluble or delicate Ingrediants the same Goes for boiling or steaming. How much of a bait remains soluble once boiled ?

In reply to Post #50
Freezing causes minimal damage to a bait but over time it will dry it out (water still evaporates when frozen...just very slowly, its normally called freezer burn when it gets really bad). Frozen veg are still as good for you as fresh shop veg, notice I said 'shop veg' as possibly not as good as fresh from the garden but the difference is very small and is down to time from harvesting.

If I use circa 20% solubles in a bait it cooks fine and catches fish. If I use more they are generally too soft. If I use less they normal don't attract fish quite so well (if at all). 20% is generally accepted as the 'norm' for boiled baits and has been found by many using trial and error. You can go up to 25% with some ingredients or down to 15% with others but 20% is a good starting point.

The amount that remains in my bait after boiling is irrelevant (you could measure it but not sure how....I can measure solubility of dry ingredients but a finished bait is a lot more difficult to measure) as I know that more to start off with gives me very soft baits that break down too quickly for my use (and I like a soft bait).

If you steam your baits this level could be different, I don't steam.

In reply to Post #41
Fair explanation Sam.....

In reply to Post #47
I get your point, I was trying to be a bit controversial. What I'm getting at is I'm not sure the difference in frozen/fresh/shelf is enough to worry about anymore. I look at it like this:

Location wrong = blank You can't catch what ain't there
Rig wrong = blank Bottom bait in weed, bottom bait when a zigs needed etc
Bait = Shelflife instead of a frozen, presented perfectly for the conditions whilst on fish. I just don't see that as causing a blank

Over the years I bet loads of us have used particles or tigers etc from the jar or tin. I bet no ones ever thought these won't catch cos I didn't boil them yesterday.

In reply to Post #53
There are ingredients that simply do not work in a shelf life bait yet do work in a frozen bait, some bait companies might not use any of these in any of there baits so in a comparison between shelf life or frozen in there ranges there may only be minimal difference

In reply to Post #53
Location is still the most important.

Next you need the fish to pick your bait up. In my experience on some waters a carp will not pick up some shelf life baits as quickly as they would a freezer bait. That's not to say they will never pick up a shelf life bait but in many situations a great freezer bait is still better then a good shelf life bait IMHO.

Rigs come last (other than bottom, popup etc). So many great anglers use the same basic of rigs year after year.

Why can you not get Cell or The Link in shelf life? Because they would not work half as well

In reply to Post #55
Why can you not get Cell or The Link in shelf life? Because they would not work half as well

Agree

When mainline brought out the shelf life dumbells I thought all my dreams had come true, a tub of activ 8 in the bottom of the rucksack for whenever I needed a change bait, plus break them in half and you had a tiny bait that stayed on the hook!

The reality, utter crap compared to the freezer bait, now whether that's enzymes, which if Mainline have been producing a bait like that for the massses over such a long time that is pretty amazing

Or there is something else going on in the sugar or fermentation department, who knows, the base mix ingredients were not exactlry HNV, pretty basic, but I found them to be worlds apart, the freezers and shelfies

In reply to Post #56
What about the fact that maybe the mpg preserves used in modern shelf life's lowers the amount that the carp can or do digest. So perhaps small amounts make no difference but if you put out 10kg would they stop feeding before it was all consumed? The same can be said for other ingredients, small amounts perfectly digestible and attractive, excessive amounts become less tolerable. A bit like me and chocolate, I love a little bit Cadbury's dairy milk but soon get sick of it. Maybe a reason why high attract type baits are better in small amounts

In reply to Post #57
But is this more assumption then fact ? I can eat chocolate until it comes out me ears for expample so not everyone or everything's the same. So who's to say some carp don't like that taste of preservatives or being acidic have attraction properties.

Or how much impact does a soluble preservative have once submerged for a length of time ?

In reply to Post #58
It's just a guess and may be completely unfounded but my mind is cast back to 2013 and it was a time when I fed my own carp a lot of boilies over the autumn as they had a poor summer and were down in weight. I fed them loads of pellets and freezer baits and they were eating huge amounts daily. Then all of sudden they just stopped eating. The temps were pretty similar and the only thing that changed was I fed them 40kg of shelf life's over 2/3 days mixed with pellets. Now I have been around long enough to know there are a million factors that could have done that but I have often wondered what the preserve elements do to the carps digestive capabilities. Bearing in mind that when shelf life's have been tested on tank carp the results have not always been very good. Like I say it's just a thought not factual evidence

In reply to Post #59
👍🏻 You can only go off your own findings

In reply to Post #60
I have since fed them shelf life's with no obvious detrimental effects. I wonder if that batch had excess levels of mpg (I have never seen that bait go off even after a 16 months of trying).......I'm a big believer in Fresh bait, fresh eggs etc but I'm also incredibly old fashioned when it comes to boilies. Those shelf life baits that are like bullets and would survive the nuclear Holocaust can't be good for carp surely 😂😭😭

In reply to Post #59
Just a thought, did they eat the pellet or leave that too?

In reply to Post #57
Which is why there's better preservatives than MPG! MPG can also deoxygenate water in high doses.

I think the day ticket water arguments don't really hold up as a comparison - broadly speaking they are heavily stocked waters that see a vast amount of different baits, the fish have no idea what they've eaten. People also don't usually put “campaigns” in to establish better baits, there's no point.

Home freezing doesn't “kill” the vast majority of enzymes/bacteria, it just slows it down - which is why food still has a “shelf life” when its in the freezer. The reason air dried baits don't turn properly is because you've taken away the moisture, and you need heat and water for the bacteria to work. Soak them for a bit, leave them somewhere warrm and they'll start turning.

I still think the original Grange was the best bait that Mainline ever made......

In reply to Post #62
They never ever ever leave pellet

In reply to Post #64
interesting

In reply to Post #64
Have you tested different preservatives to see the affects on carp , potassium sorbate, citric Acid ( not sure at what level this can become a sole preservative ) even salt.

Personally I use Sorbate at low levels depending on the mix and breakdown times are near identical but I only air dry for 24 hours to retain as much moisture as possible.

In reply to Post #66
I wasn't involved in testing of preserves on a technical level, I have merely had dealings with one of the guys who ran the tests. His conclusions were that in a tank, fed only on preserved bait, the carp would not prosper. But the fact that carp in a lake would not only eat preserved bait, they would be ok. Different brands use different preserves and different levels with their baits. There are different grades of preserves too which we all consume without even realising. Excessive levels of salt will probably do them no good either. I'm always happier with baits with no preserves or at least the lowest level possible

In reply to Post #67
No problem and thank you 👍🏻

In reply to Post #68
Hydra k. One of the best baits to come out in the last 10 years, i have no doubt about that whatsoever. And do ABS do a shelf life version? No. Why? Because a lot of the goodies in the bait dont work preserved.

QED

In reply to Post #66
Did some testing too.
Finally, the best results were obtained using a combi of organic acids and antioxidants which are also used in some koi feed.