serving time, when the otters killed his fish and he couldnt afford the fence



https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-8088909/Barbaric-fishery-boss-54-killed-protected-otter-horrified-campers-jailed.html?ns_mchannel=rss&ns_campaign=1490&ito=1490

In reply to Post #1
link

didn't he shoot it in front of a load of campers? bit daft if so

In reply to Post #3
Yep

Just read the article. Serves him right.

If he was daft enough to shoot it in broad daylight in front of a load of people, it's no surprise he had to face the consequences. You just can't get way stuff like that in this day and age.

In reply to Post #1
He has got carp worth £40,000.00 each swimming around in there though...............

In reply to Post #6
I'm sorry, if I was a lake owner I'd do the same, BUT mostly why on earth has he gone to jail for shooting an Otter FFS fine him yes, and when his fish have all been killed, not to mention the bird life, give him full compensation and a monthly wage as his income has now gone!!!

Upset by animals released into the wild taking the same advantage of those he has in captivity as his clientele.. then being driven to kill an animal because of failing to protect your assets, ****

The guy's an idiot. The damage he has done to the public image anglers have will be significant, he has done ZERO to help angling with it's predation issues. The article reads as though he thought the members of the public present would back him.... Newsflash the majority of people love otters and all he's done here is make anglers look like blood thirsty morons.

In reply to Post #1
Not condoning what he did at all, a very stupid thing to do.

The quote below shows how much the public and press misunderstand the otter threat.

'The court heard otters have a limited impact on the fishing population within this environment and were actually a positive feature as they demonstrate good quality water for fish.'

In reply to Post #10
TBH though the fella could have 'resolved' the situation in other ways which would not have resulted in these proceedings.

If the fence would have cost £20k then why didn't he do it? Yep, it's a cost that he didn't want to meet but in the situation it was unavoidable.

In reply to Post #10
The court heard otters have a limited impact on the fishing population within this environment and were actually a positive feature as they demonstrate good quality water for fish.'

Surely like saying that great white sharks are a positive feature for surfers?

What a Clown! Problem is there will be knock on effects in the not too distant future thanks to his actions.

I still can't believe it – in broad daylight in front of a load of campers, he brings new meaning to the “Village Idiot”



IF the fish stock was worth so much money, then why the hell was it not protected with a fence? That's the question the Court should have asked .

Don't otters spread Coronavirus? I think he was acting for the public's good.

In reply to Post #13
Totally agree. Not the sharpest tool in the box eh.

knowing the press, i doubt all these campers was really there, probably a a few fisherman, and 1 camper maybe, that didnt like it, but still, stupid infront of people, could of just said get it in this box from the net, ill take it somewhere else miles away, 20 mins later bang bang

In reply to Post #12
Hi Paul

"they demonstrate good quality water"

To be honest I think it's a valid point, I've only ever seen otters in Europe on the venues and rivers with a better water quality.

Whole thing is sad all round, the man in question has been called an idiot a number of times on this thread, and (whilst I don't condone what he has done) he's quite obviously been pushed beyond his limit.
I truthfully don't know how I'd react seeing my livelihood and probably dream being destroyed in the way the UK otter situation is treating venue owners and fish stocks in general.
When you get 3 months probation for beating and robbing an 82 year old blind woman and 2 months inside for shooting an otter? Lots wrong here

Best

Jon

Dont know what the truth is ?
but apparently he simply could not afford the otter fencing ?
CLEARLY he should not have done it in front of so many people but I can understand he had probably lost it sadly

in some circumstances A farmer can legally SHOOT a Dog if its deemed it was worrying his sheep !

And yet A fishery owner cannot harm a Predator thats actually decimating his fish stock he owns ?
and now will get Jail time !!!!!!

yet child molesters rapists and muggers to name a few types have walked free without Jail time ??

IMHO ITS A DISGRACE this bloke was given a prison sentence for his crime

Since Xmas,I have seen three otters,alive on the road,my wife has seen one,all in different locations..

A lake,on a holiday complex is being destroyed as I speak,last week when I was perching,a big dog otter, popped up,right over my prawn hookbait..scales,spraint,and body parts are evident.I gave the info to the owners last yr,they failed to act, so it is their fault..

The otter is not rare,or endangered, it should be removed from protected status,asap...

Yesterday,in all the rain and wind,I spent the day repairing,and replacing ,the electric powerpac,it lasted four yrs,I not lost a carp since I put a fence round..so I can't complain..

I understand the guy's frustration,and as it was already in the net,it could have been reported,and removed...(sic)

Rewilders in this country cause untold damage and misery to many people,.....they should be held accountable..

I now have a released beaver in the nearby river,destroying all the trees....

In reply to Post #18
But then there's kids in jail doing a hell of a lot longer, who were forced or manipulated to run drugs or carry guns.

In reply to Post #19
problem is there is no population records for otters and it is too hard to get them as you cant distinguish them for the most part. Without numbers there is no case to say there are endangered still, but neither is there a case to say they aren't.

If I was his lawyer I would be appealing the jail time decision on the basis of exactly what's been mentioned. I dont think any judge can put him inside when faced with the fact that actual criminals walk free or get a chance. No doubt a biased judge. Either that or he cant afford to pay the hefty fine so has to get locked up.

This will be controversial but I'm sorry we as anglers have no right to kill or dictate where a wild animal that was native to this country goes, if a lake owner is worried about his stocks then fence it!! There are grants available for such things, it's no excuse. Sorry no one is gonna change my mind

Sadly the wildlife lovers will now tar all anglers with the same brush as this knuckle dragger. If anything this will now have set back all the good work done by the PAG and the angling trust to build bridges between the angling and wildlife communities. The blokes an idiot, and I for one am embarrassed if this is what anglers are portrayed as to the rest of the country.

In reply to Post #17
Hi Jon

It was more the 'otters have a limited impact on the fishing population' bit I was highlighting. I have no doubt that otters prefer nice clean water with plenty of fish in it but I would suspect you would rarely see an otter in a swimming pool but frequently see them in an overstocked muddy pond, that is until it becomes an understocked muddy pond.

That all withstanding this bloke has put our cause back a long way.

It may have been different if he shot an otter that was busy killing a swan or goose, but joe public rarely sees fish and rarely care about them.

In reply to Post #1
Blokes an idiot, end of

In reply to Post #24
Hi Paul

Wasn't having a dig at all.
I think almost all anglers I've met in Europe and EE are pretty shocked about the otter situation in the UK as they fish in or around them year in year out without any major problems.
The problem the UK has is you have a highly legally protected "designer" predator that's causing environnental havoc.
If no-one foresaw a venue owner (and let's stop calling him just an angler) having his livelihood and life destroyed and ending up doing what he's done a shock?
Sorry but it's been coming for years and rightly or wrongly highlights a serious problem.
Best
Jon

The wildlife trust openly admit that there are too many otters,the males ,are not supposed to tolerate another in a specific range..they tolerate another male on 'their'patch now,that's a significant sign of over population..

I wish to see the protected status removed from these creatures,far too many of them around,and that's why they target fisheries..especially when rivers are in spate.

I know someone,who suffered mental health and physical issues because a female and youngsters destroyed a lovely Cornish fishery..

Having studied them for over thirty years,simply they are not sustainable in today's increasing urbanisation..
This is all caused man playing god with an apex predator..

The pointed finger ,lies solely with do goders,and rewilders..

With over 100 private and commercial fisheries ruined by predation,that itself is a truth....not covered up by lies by the rewilding brigade..(in my area)...that itself points to an over population of very hungry predators...

The court heard otters have a limited impact on the fishing population within this environment and were actually a positive feature as they demonstrate good quality water for fish.

I'm assuming that there was some form of environmental/ fish survey to provide the above information to the court? I wonder who carried it out on this water. Natural England? The otter trust? How did they determine how many lbs fish were eaten by the otters to cone to the conclusion that the otters present had a limited impact on this fishery? I think there are better ways of demonstrating that your lake/pond/river has good water quality then having otters present to provide this!

In reply to Post #28
G.B,I can tell you now mate,that I would not believe a single word from any rewilders,..they would have used some sort of expert in court,using all the trendy enviro,buzz speak to dismantle that fishery guy,he wouldn't have stood a chance..

So you make a good point..

However, let this case be a warning.you have only a few options

Fence your water
Hope lutra 'goes away'...
Turn to god...

Myself I see the big picture,the future for any country pursuit is very unclear....

In reply to Post #29
You and me Adam put these same posts up on a kind of three month rota and have been doing so for over 8 years! If the message has not sunk in by now, I doubt it ever will.

Otters are here for good, FACT

If you care for the fish stocks then fence it, if you can't be bothered then they will get eaten at some point in the future.

If you can't fence the water for some reason, then on the grounds of fish welfare get them transferred to a water that is fenced, rather than sitting back and watching them get systematically butchered (I've seen it happen!)

As I've put before Adam, the price of Otter fencing quote's they get scares the hell out of a lot of fishery owners, when in reality if they did it themselves and sourced the many, many options of Fencing materials that can be utilised the actual cost is trivial (I priced some 6ft heavy duty Mesh, with a 25 year life span that could be utilised the other week, worked out mesh only £1.30 per meter!)


It's madness that fisheries are being destroyed for no reason.

In reply to Post #30
Well said Keith, that's the truth right there..

My place,2.5 acre lake bordered by two otter motorways, fully fenced,budget version,run by electric Sheppard, solar panal,two electrified wires top and bottom..
Fence line weed killed twice a year ..
Fence daily inspected.

Outside of lake daily visited by lutra,twice a day,evidence on trail cam..

Did all work myself,...roughy 1k...eight yr ago,currently double meshing as and when needed...

Cheap ,effective,no fish loss..and cheap to do,if I can do it ,anyone who cares about a fishery can do it..


My heart though,goes out to all those thousands of needless kills...and ecosystems ruined...

When Adam speaks on the subject peeps should heed his words. He raised the warning flags in Cornwall nearly thirty years ago.

He told us we had otters on our lakes: We did.
He said it would get much worse: It has.
He advised on ways to alleviate or even halt the problem: We listened (well, some of us did)
He spread the word first in the SW and then all over the country: Those who listened fenced; those who did not or chose to ignore his advice found their lake decimated.

FENCE IT OR LOOSE IT It's not rocket science.

In reply to Post #6
I have no reason to doubt you so if specimen carp are worth tens of thousands of pounds and a man made lake has hundreds of them in it with hundreds or even thousands of lesser but still valuable fish why on earth are they not protected. Predators are and always have been a fact of life in the countryside. If you rear, sell or sell access to valuable but vulnerable creatures protect them or lose them.
Do not fret or waste your time in discussion or argument, however we'll researched or evidenced. This is a purely political decision based on the emotional response of the electorate and we are very much the minority and we will not win.
Perhaps if we stopped deifying big carp and stocked fingerlings to grow on with reduced financial expectations we might approach a balance between financial ambition and the reality of the natural world.

In reply to Post #33
I rent a water and run a syndicate, How the hell am I supposed to fence 40 acres of water with no money,Most of us do not get paid to run waters ,we do it because we can.
Grants are only available to open access waters and not private waters, we got hit 8 years ago and lost half of our stock(Around £50k).
2 otters have been have been stopped from entering my water in 12 months Not good news for us and anyone else along the blackwater valley so watch out yateley as it will be them next.

In reply to Post #34
Maybe some fisheries with stock worth 10s of 000s need to sell enough of those assets to put the relevant protection in place to grow on new fish safely..

Or just soldier on and be left with no cash or memberships/ticket sales.

In reply to Post #34
I feel for you manic,I do...

Unfortunately, your water could have no future at all,once those creatures find it,they will return,even those that have' gone away',like I mentioned in loads of posts over time,there are that many otters out there,....its heartbreaking..

I also predicted all those yrs ago,that when the southeast is hit ,the pooh will hit the fan,this is because your near major conurbations, sadly in those conurbations,there are a lot of people who have zero knowledge of rural issues,let's call them bunny huggers...and if this happens again,ie a angler tops a lutra,and it will happen,the townie media will rip another bot hole in anglers reputation...

We have All been royally shafted by rewilders,some say it has been done on purpose..



Someone mentioned stocking with fingerlings,I did that,I used my pension money to stock my place sadly, the cormorant ate them..

In reply to Post #36
its true - fence it or loose it

I'm down in Dorset and the furrys are rife....

Our local well known big pit has been fenced at a cost of over 40K i believe - but money well spent.....
1.6 miles of fencing

Unfortunately otters are protected - so the chap in question is an idiot....

In reply to Post #34
Otters are not going to come off the protected list. They are a factor any fishery has to manage. Protecting your stock must surely be a priority in your business/financial plan. Fencing works and is a practical solution in many cases but it will cost money that must be planned for. If you can't afford the costs maybe its not the lake for you.
There is no way anybody can go back to a Victorian model of management where every other living thing except the chosen creature, in this case carp, are shot, snared, trapped or poisoned. It will quite rightly not be allowed.

In reply to Post #37
Nick,Lyons gate is Dorset way I believe,my two mates,traveled up there a few times to fish,because local waters held only memories...and pics in their albums, both mates are now dead..(sadly true)..

Anyway the guy who shot that pred,did us all a huge disservice, I bet he was hugely frustrated with stock loss and if true,and let's all be aware,media does not always truthtell,...then to shoot one in the cold light of day was not clever at all..

All he had to do was ring the RSPCA,and say this otter is poorly...think about it...👍,by doing that, or similar,he'd might've averted a media backlash,prison sentence,I bet UKWOT,would have been there in a flash...

Matey panicked, he shot it......now we have to pay,all of us..!!

In reply to Post #39
now we have to pay,all of us..!! , why do we all have to pay,?

I have contemplated this in the past when I have read the Otter threads. I can honestly say I would shoot one if I had to and would not think twice about it, why not?

There are lots of waters around me that are not fenced, nor could they sustain the costs and some are not know to be prolific fisheries so fencing would not even be considered. How much is a 12 gauge cartridge? far better option in such circumstances

The otter is an Apex predator, add this to cormorants, where they finally saw the sense to let people shoot them, we cannot afford more damage to our fisheries. Rightly or wrongly they died out for a reason. I can see the need for a reintroduction and sustainability but there needs to be some proper consideration and control measures in place before we are overrun with them. Some people would be happy to be overrun with them, I'm not

This pastime has come far from it roots with all the commercialism and greed and if we are not careful we will be left with nothing unless we pay a premium

The guy shot a protected species in broad daylight in front of witnesses. He must be a weapons grade bellend. I've got no sympathy for him. What next? Swan clubbing? I loath otters and I'd like to see them culled. But not like this. This could set back anglers rights for years.

In reply to Post #42
Possibly so, weapons grade bellend, could have been more stealth like, should have waited until dusk or the break of dawn

Wait until the RSPB have had enough and finally get their feathers ruffled, then something good may come from it, like a license to shoot or placing them in waters that are not bird sanctuary's

In reply to Post #40
Because....across the board country pursuits are sometimes portrayed in a negative light,by the British media.Angling is a fieldsport/pursuit....

It could be in the future,the act of killing a protected species, highlighted in manstream media,or used negatively by ,for example George Monbiot,or PETA..or any other person against angling or a personal adgenda or other,against any form of country pursuit,or hobby...

Will be used against us....remember,and its not obvious to many,especially anglers in urban locations,there is a subtle,underground war....in the countryside...to stop ALL field sports

Take heed because, I know my stuff,and don't say these things lightly...

In reply to Post #39
yep - lyons gate is down my way...

Mechanically stop them from getting in and maintain that defence.

Its the only way

In reply to Post #44
Angling is a mass hobby pursued by many different demographics in this country for their own reasons. It works well. Many, I'd say the majority I've met have never killed an animal. The link between angler's and field sport's is diminishing. Field sports supporting folk should get this and adapt.
No excuses for this type of killing of a protected species anymore, anywhere, wether you agree with re-wilding or not.

In reply to Post #46
Grow up

For dinner I had a sheep's head with the back legs on

In reply to Post #47
You might not like hypocrisy. But it's the way the world work's.
Wise up

In reply to Post #48
Your gonna tell me your one of these new world vegans next aren't you?

In reply to Post #49
No

In reply to Post #29
I don't trust natural England either wandle. I'd have thought a court would be interested in facts, but I suspect the environmental impact was a side issue and glossed over due to the nature of the case. I'm not a lawyer or involved in the case so can only guess.

I know very little of the history of the re-introduction of, as The late John Wilson put : Britain's biggest land rat! Perhaps you could point me in the right direction of some literature on the subject. I'd be interested in investigating this further.

My concern is apathy from other anglers on the otter issue. There's millions of us anglers right? We line the environment agency's pockets every year. My sad observation is that unless an issue directly threatens people, the masses aren't interested in getting involved. But what can be done to challenge this? Maybe we need a fishing Greta Thunberg......

I know that the Angling Trust gets some stick, but all anglers should be a member. Just my tuppence worth.

In reply to Post #50

In reply to Post #52
I've a photo from 1991 in a draw somewhere with me front and center with 2 hanging blue Marlin and 3 Sailfish. 1 of the Blues was 400lb+, a mature female. Times change and so should attitudes towards natural wildlife. I'm embarrassed by that photo and keep it to remind me.
My take on otters is get on with your angling. It's a great hobby. I've never been comfortable with angling behind fences, so probably never will. Tight lines to those that are and good luck.

In reply to Post #53
What are you ashamed of? Catching them or the fact they were killed afterwards or both? Were you ashamed at the time or just now?

In reply to Post #39
Lyons gate fishery is on a small caravan site in the village of the same name between Sherborne and Dorchester. I go there for a days float or feeder fishing or take my grandson occasionally. There are a number of ponds, very small with the biggest about an acre. The stocking levels are huge, many times I have caught 20 plus carp in a day without targeting them. This is a prime example of a totally unnatural man made eco system being dropped in the middle of our countryside. No different to a battery farm. It needs the same kind of security. The problem is not otters, ospreys, herons or cormorants, it is not environmentalists it is carp fisherman who have no empathy with or respect for their quarry, no care or understanding for the countryside. It is fishery owners, media
and manufacturers exploiting this. It boils down to greed for numbers, weights and money that has largely destroyed a sport I have loved for over 50 years. This fishery could easily have been fenced, but that might take a few quid out of someone's pocket. Reading some of these posts and knowing how many commercial modern fisheries are run I despair for the future of angling

In reply to Post #54
Why do those questions matter to you?
Nosey?

In reply to Post #55
I know...

The only reason I mentioned it was because my two friends fished it, before they passed on..

I avoid those places too..!!!...not my cup of tea.

In reply to Post #57
Sorry. No disrespect intended.

In reply to Post #56
Sorry ocelot, perhaps I should have PM'd you. I just wondered why having the opportunity to fish for and catch such amazing fish would be anything other than an incredible fishing experience and one to be proud of.
My apologies if it came across as being nosey.

In reply to Post #53
I don't particularly like to be fishing behind fences either, but if those fences were not there ,there would be virtually no fish left,the ecosystem in the lake will be even more diminished as the waterfowl get mullered too..!!!...

The whole pyramid of life becomes defunct after a while,the kingfishers stop coming,because the small fish have gone..and so on..

Its the other way around,everything inside the fenced venues I manage and other places I fish ,thrives....

Each to their own as they say...I'm lucky because I have places to go that I know,have some nice fish,not monsters but fish that are alive....and not many humans...!!

In reply to Post #53
I can understand that. It's probably a maturity thing?

Watched a documentary once about a guy who fished for white sharks, bigger the better, used to catch them and hang them in the docks. Turned into one of the major voices for the conservation of them, possibly a guilt trip in his case?

My passion is different. If I am watching something that has been swimming around in its own world for years and the circumstances change not of its own doing, that concerns me. Ottter comes along or something that's quite a few years old and defence less to them, no comparison for me. They will be like rats soon, everywhere

Sitting behind an otter fenced fishery was something I never dreamed I would be doing (I wish I never had to) but everytime I visit our little syndicate lake fully fenced I now sit there with a smile on my face rather than dread.

The guy who shot the otter in public deserves everything he gets.

In reply to Post #59
Don't apologise, this one's a baiter.

In reply to Post #60
Hi Wandle, long time lurker on the forum and thought I'd finally dip my toe into actually posting. I totally understand your frustration and despair with the otter situation - I myself have been at the sharp end, including finding a very old target fish I had been stalking on and off for two weeks, freshly dragged up the bank that morning with it's throat ripped out. Also as a lifelong thames angler, we now have to contend with otters turning up on areas we have baited, drawn in by the fish we are baiting for...

I would though respectfully like to question your linking of re-wilding and otter and beaver introductions. True re-wilding is simply creating the habitat for native species to return and allowing them to do so in their own time, as in the Knepp project. Releasing apex predators all over the shop with no plan is just bad practice. A lot of people in the conservation world are waking up to this, and beginning to appreciate the importance of making sure local rural communities are consulted and on-board, and can see the benefits that re-wilding projects might bring - but due to things like the otter situation, this is now obviously an uphill struggle...

I feel for you in Kernow - where I am it seems the big wild unfenced pits will have their fish numbers reduced but not totally wiped out, and the thames will always have it's fish. Smaller waters though are not so lucky. As for the beavers, I know they destroy trees, but surely as anglers we could appreciate an animal that creates more wetland habitat? Their dams also act as filters, purifying river water as it passes through them, and if they reduce flooding, even better no? I am not here to argue and would really appreciate to hear why you are against the beavers - is it because they were released privately without consultation? Personally I am an angler first and a conservationist second - we live in a crowded country and our wildflife is our most important asset, and anything that promotes and enhances that is good in my eyes, as long as it's done SENSIBLY. That said, beavers on the Thames around some major population centres might be quite funny

Cheers, Nick

In reply to Post #35
Yeah because we can all do that cant we! are you serious?

In reply to Post #64
Great post, makes a lot of sense to me. Especially the start of your last paragraph

In reply to Post #65
I think a concensus is growing in this thread that fisheries will have to use fencing for protection and find the funding for it. Trapping and shooting of Otter is not an option and will never be. Get past it.

In reply to Post #67
You missed out the word legally.

In reply to Post #68

In reply to Post #68
Lake owner prison for shooting Otter.
Maybe add "Threat of angling ban grows".
Killing of protected indigenous wildlife to protect invasive introduced species blamed.

The OP about the individual in question is think is mostly accepted that he was stupid and his punishment is deserved.

On the wider issue of fencing to prevent otters and predation it strikes me as simple. You wouldn't leave a 40 grand car unlocked if you knew there were theives about would you?

Investment to protect assets is basic business sense and taking to illegal responses when it goes wrong if you haven't prepared is not the answer.

In reply to Post #71
Difference is mate a 40k car at my age cost about £600 to insure fully comp

In reply to Post #71
What would you know about basic business sense, bloody hippy

In reply to Post #65
Deadly serious mate.
If a business, hobby or vanity project isn't financially or logistically viable then why torture yourself?
You'd have thought nature will restore some sort of balance in numbers eventually, problem is the carp being held captive with no predation deterrent are A) easy pickings. B) unnaturally numerous and C) often replaced with new stock once decimated

In reply to Post #74
Yes the point really being that in a natural ecological environment a balance would be achieved when the predators overtook their prey limit.
This does not happen if we keep restocking with big fat easy prey fish.
Otters would not reproduce and thrive at the rate they are if it was a. Natural environment like it was a few thousand years ago.

In reply to Post #73
You can always rely on a helmet.

In reply to Post #76
Thanks for the compliment
As Mal would say peace and love man, peace and love

In reply to Post #77
Happy to oblige. Live like you wanna live Mal.

In reply to Post #73
As the great business guru 'neal' once said. ...


We plant the seed. .. nature grows the seed... we eat the seed. ..


Sounds like fiscal nirvana to me

In reply to Post #74
I'd add- willingly throwing away other people's hard earned money into that equation as well.

What was my favourite water, a 45 acre Res. got a family of Otters take up residence on it a couple of years back, I've not fished it since. The Club who have it have gone from being a thriving Club with a waiting list, to the point where they are struggling to pay the lease/insurance!

I'd predict it will become a basic coarse water with just Bream, Roach and Perch present, as all three species re-populate year on year. The question is – is there enough Anglers who want to fish waters like this to pay the bills – doubt it.

In reply to Post #63
Aren't you one of the real bottom feeders from Carpy?
Thanks for your contribution to the thread....
PM for you GB

In reply to Post #61
Guilt trips, maturity? No.
The guy that skippered the boat also had a fish smoking business, I didn't know this when booking the trip. Greed on his behalf and nativity on mine that has never been repeated.

In reply to Post #80
That could be a summary of a lot of waters near me Keith when they arrive. That's the reality, bloody do gooders

The fluffy animal lovers are a weirdly hypocritical bunch....Matey gets jailed for shooting (HUMANE DISPATCH),yet the Barrister or QC who CLUBBED a fox to death on Boxing day walks free?? The RSPCA claimed the fox was killed HUMANELY...? Excuse me but *****( I cant swear)!!!?? This stinks of a class orientated prosecution and as such should be challenged. What the shooter did cannot be condoned ever, should be but taken into account when his financial world was in turmoil. Maybe because Mr fox has for whatever reason mauled a child or three ,he is more of a legitimate and visible target than Lutra for wannabe killers ?

In reply to Post #84
The difference could also be down to the number of witnesses. If the guy who killed the fox had kept it quiet nobody would have known about it. Doesn't make it the right thing to do though.

In reply to Post #81
Thanks for your contribution to the thread....

You're welcome, it's all about the information.

In reply to Post #86
I've been aware of this case since the day the fool shot the otter.

The traps set illegally for all to see, the angler who caught the otter in the landing net, then the owner called his wife over to bring his gun and he shot it in front of quite a few people.

the total stupidity of his actions will reach far and wide and all the hardwork of bringing otter people and anglers, fishery owners, Angling Trust, NE, all together has implications now.

he could have fenced that water, no excuses, he just didn't want to spend any money and now he is paying the price, and that cost will be a lot more for him now an in the future.

The man is a fool and his actions now affect every angler in the country.

ironically, since the shooting, another otter has replaced the dead one, so how many has he shot before getting caught?

the whole argument about "farmers rights" is weak at best, sheep aren't a protected species, so no point using that as a weak point to make, the same as on the other side of the fence we always hear from non angling world that carp are a "non native" species...another pathetic argument.

Lets face it, waters that can be fenced, should be fence, or face losing stock, the cost of fence need NOT be ridiculous, and they need NOT be 6 ft tall and looking like a zoo fence. YES, the more one can do the better, but practically and financially certain types of fences are difficult to convince, especially land owners.

once fenced, legally, you can live trap an otter, but ONLY if said trapper is trained and registered. again, its NOT the answer, but more of an insurance policy, should a fenced water have a breech in its defences.

Perhaps a view from another perspective. By the middle of the 20th century when I was born, victoriana methods of game management, industrial pollution and environment loss and
damage had reduced many of the predatory species of birds and mammals to the brink of extinction with tiny populations hanging on in remote corners. In my lifetime a long and continuing battle has been fought to change this. I am glad to say many victories have been won and the situation is improving. Particularly(bear this in mind) the awareness and perceptions of the general public in regard to environmental matters. The return of the Otter is a massive victory to pretty much everyone( except the owners and users of modern carp fisheries including match style venues stuffed with f1s) including the many anglers who love the natural environment.
Carp angling in particular and angling in general had better get on board or we will be the ones facing extinction. If its a choice between being able to take my grandchildren to see a peregrine, hobby, red kite, golden Eagle barn owl. Pine marten, or Otter, or take them to catch damaged, stew bred carp utterly dependent on anglers baits in an expensive and characterless muddy puddle the choice is an easy one.

In reply to Post #88
I agree to a point, but it reaches far wider than muddy over stocked commercial lakes.

today, we know the risks of predation, there's so much chatter and advice available, if one chooses to ignore it, then they face the inevitable

fishing, is a massively important part of many lives, from young children watching a little red quill float to the more serious angler and lets not forget, we are the guardians of many waters ways

In reply to Post #89
That's the point I was making. This is far bigger than one small group of people. Many people in angling are working hard for the future and I for one appreciate that. There are much larger numbers of non anglers working hard across the whole spectrum of environmental issues and thank the Lord for that. Many of these people have no love of angling or at best are undecided. We need to get our coarse angling and particularly our carp angling house in order. There are if we are honest an increasing number of skeletons in our modern, financially driven carp industry.

In reply to Post #90
We need to get our coarse angling and particularly our carp angling house in order. There are if we are honest an increasing number of skeletons in our modern, financially driven carp industry.

There's quite a lot of people (And not just in the trade) who are saying exactly the same thing - I'm beginning to see a perception of a "serious lack of credibility" developing.

In reply to Post #91
Some interesting reading on here. Clearly a lot of experience and even some common sense.

It does strike me that we (anglers) can come across as a bit hypocritical when complaining about otters if our argument is that we don't like an apex predator eating the fish. There are a good few pike anglers on here and they also fit that description. Some even use fish (alive and killed) as bait....

Sensible voices on both sides of the discussion will hopefully prevail...

In reply to Post #92
a predator only becomes successful with availability of prey...angling has given that prey

In reply to Post #93
It's not just angling that have give an abundant food source Joss, the likes of the RSPB have probably helped to provide a much more easily available food source.

From what I've witnessed when fishing, walking, Kayaking.... ground nesting birds, and especially water fowl are being truly hammered!

In reply to Post #94
I think you'll agree that with the amount of food we have provided by mass stocking of fish, enjoying many years of low predation, in hunger from anglers to catch copious amounts of large fish and our complete ignorance towards predation has contributed massively towards the success of otters.

RSPB aren't guilty of breeding and stocking at a level of the carp industry have been as the hunger for commercial angling has risen

nature simple, give it food, they thrive.

of course there's other factors, but food and water and shelter is key

RSPB are predator fencing their a lot of their land, but they'll never admit as to why or point the finger at the halo wearing otter

In reply to Post #95
Interestingly, Rye Harbour Nature Reserve, which is a haven for the local bird population, is heavily fenced to protect the area from......................rabbits. Lot's of signs saying the fencing is for rabbit protection, I wonder if that's really the reason?

In reply to Post #96
When did rabbits need a 5ft fence to keep them out... any fenced fishery is now a wildlife haven. They'll all probably get given protected status and angling banned!

In reply to Post #96
Sounds like a prime target for a little reconfiguration, replace the word rabbit with otter.

In reply to Post #91
Have taken some time to consider this, hope I've got it right.
Just for the record I am not and never have been involved in the "trade" my angling has always been a personal pursuit.
Am I right in thinking that the credibility gap you refer to is the gap between the impressions, implied promises and the descriptions of experiences peddled by videos, mags, books and adverts and the reality of the experience of many anglers arriviving at commercial fisheries. Busy, overcrowded, one dimensional fishing with more rules than a food hygiene course.

In reply to Post #99
I think carp fishing suffers a complete lack of credibility, even amongst other anglers. I am primarily a carp angler, but fish for most other coarse species, along with sea and game. I rarely introduce myself to other specimen anglers as a carper.....because the ribbing will be merciless!

Carping used to be held on a pedestal. Not anymore. It is too instant, too many clones, too many carp!!

We carry no clout at all with any government body Or conservation group and this Pratt with the otter does not help.

In reply to Post #100
top post that mate

In reply to Post #99
Midlandman has pretty much hit the nail on the head. I too do many forms of fishing now, and unless you do and start seeing/hearing things from another perspective, one which you would normally be insulated from, you don't realise it.

I could give loads of examples of, contradictions, lack of skills, suspect practices, lack of care, etc............ But why bother, if people don't realise now, there's very little chance of them changing.

In reply to Post #102
I'd also agree

Carp fishing has become a victim of it's own success. The commercial aspects have helped it to grow but then it has become a bit of a vicious circle with the need to attract more and more business meaning that it has attracted a much wider pool (no pun intended ) of people. It's a huge business that needs feeding now and in the worst case scenario ends up with the actions of the idiot in the original post.

But....

In the same way that it's not right to tar all with the same brush in any area, there needs to be enough of us who carry on doing things right, respecting the environment and others who enjoy it, so that we can still get on the bank in the future. For every otter shooting prat there must be at least one good role model to follow.

Has anyone read any statements from the Angling Trust?

I agree this man was foolish and has indeed caused huge damage to genuine anglers. He should have bitten the bullet and paid for a fence! But how on earth has he gone to prison?

He is older, previous good character and still gets two months in the nick? I know I'm straying off topic but people can download all types of terrible images from the internet and not do time? I know it doesn't make what he did right but the sentencing in this country is a complete joke!!

In reply to Post #105
I understand where you're coming from but look at the reality. Guy brandishing a rifle, a deadly weapon in a place where, it appears there were bystanders. Fires off a shot or shots. It's wrong and he's gotten off lucky.

In reply to Post #105
He was tried and convicted on the evidence of his own crime. It's not relative to the punishment or conviction of others. I'm not huge fan of our justice system but at the very least that bit is right.

In reply to Post #105
im on record of stating that the first person to get caught shooting an otter from the angling community will be made an example of to discourage it happening further. This has now happened.

if one is going to kill and otter, shut your mouths, don't brag about it, don't take photos and post on social media...we al know it happens, just don't put our sport in the lime light

and im in NO way condoning the killing of any protected species!

In reply to Post #108
I wouldn't be surprised if he was offered a hefty fine but couldn't or wouldn't pay it so opted for prison instead. I don't think there is any way a judge would go straight to a custodial sentence when other options are on the table...especially when the judge said other options were available to him!

In reply to Post #109
He wasn't offered anything in court, only told about his sentence mate

In reply to Post #110
bit hypocritical from the judge then!!

P.S. to anyone that is interested I have put a post in the otters and the real picture thread about legality of releases.

In reply to Post #111

frenzy is right, if you do it' do not advertise it.
i will only say' that otters get dealt with and even controlled across the uk. Probably more so on the prime salmon beats, and certain coarse venues.
if you knew what happens to poachers on some top beats, you will understand that otters are just a fly in the ointment.
the chap was asking for trouble doing what he did, in the way he did it.

i agree about the fencing, no fence no fish. the problem is some cannot cover the cost, especially on a big water. i am always looking out for potential still waters, only last year i was told of two lovely lakes partially stocked.
the is a river not far away, so fencing would have to be costed' which was doable. One water was six acres' the other nine. the only way it could of worked as a nice private fishery' was to have use of the access road. the road is not only very long which' is good as the waters are well back from the main road but' it's owned by a large agricultural co.
we approached them' and we would have to buy the whole road, along with a good few out buildings. the price was extortionate. they refused to rent it too.

so the killer here was the road cost. if the waters had been much bigger the fence may well of been the breaker. very tough and expensive starting fishery, some do not realise how tough and expensive it is.

In reply to Post #113
its not right but it happens with all sorts of animals under the radar, we all know that.

I also appreciate that its horrendous for any fishery or potential fishery owner with fencing costs, approval to fence etc.

BUT

if one can fence and has the mean to do so, then if you don't erect said fence, there's little or no point blood whingeing about who's fault it is regarding otter....there here, they aren't going anywhere, there will never be a cull, and theres no point going for farmers rights, all of which one will have to suck it up and do what you can to protect your waters

In reply to Post #114
yes' i think that sums it up perfectly.

In reply to Post #115
sadly yes mate

I see and ive had first hand otter predation issues, its horrible watching your 50 yr old fish getting taken over a relatively short period of time, heart breaking in fact.

Guess I was lucky as I spent the best part of 18 months gathering predation evidence to show the land owner before he agreed that we could fence.

once he said the magic words "yes" ...all the fence material was ordered and wit massive help from ALL of the 30 members we had, we cracked on and got the job done.

there's a lot more to my story than i'll type here, but its been very well documented over the years, but today, we are defo on the up with the lake and its inhabitants and that's not just fish. The swans eggs don't get eaten, the bird life thrives, the kingfishers are back and the frogs spawn without getting eaten, so I think there's a conservation story in its own

In reply to Post #116
dont tell everyone mate, Natural England will come and slap a SSSI designation on it!

In reply to Post #116
that's very nice and refreshing to hear. now you have done all the work and been through the mill' you can now reap the rewards. I hope the journey forward' stays positive and happy for you. good luck to you.

In reply to Post #118
cheers mate, now my lake I ok, apart from the obvious maintenance etc, I spend a lot of my time trying to help others should they want my help, of which im more than happy to do

In reply to Post #119
Frenzy you are a top man.

Just to follow up on a few of the other posts below. There is no point in trying to kill Otters. First it's illegal, secondly a replacement will be along in no time at all so you will have to keep killing them. Pointless, illegal and ultimately the law will crush you. Fence it or move on. I have had to move on from my own lake. It cannot be fenced and has been wiped out twice now.

In reply to Post #39
All he had to do was ring the RSPCA,and say this otter is poorly...think about it...👍,by doing that, or similar,he'd might've averted a media backlash,prison sentence,I bet UKWOT,would have been there in a flash...

They then turn up, say they look alright feeding on your fat carp mister, then they issue a warning to you of disturbing them then off they go.........

In reply to Post #71
£100.00 for fencing on a leased water that cant be secured! don't think so.

In reply to Post #122
If its Lyons Gate your talking about you could probably fence these tiny pools for the £100 you mention.

In reply to Post #121
waste of time the RSPCA, help would have been at hand via the UKWOT, BUT...as he refused to fece the water, nothing cold be done regardless

In reply to Post #120
Too kind mate, but that you

In reply to Post #46
WTF!!!

How can the link between angling and field sports be deminshing, when angling is a bloody fieldsport.

The mind boggles!!!

The problem is that manu anglers don't think that what they do IS a field sport,; they delude themselves!!

In reply to Post #126
Correct..

A lot of anglers are town based ,they in reality have zero connection of the rural way of life.

There lies the distance or lack of connection between the other field sports ,of which catch and release angling is most certainly is..

At this moment angling is in general ,or at least where I live seen in a good positive ,this due to it mental health and wellness advocatiion..

However this could change ,look to PETA ,and the Green Party ,

In reply to Post #127
Wandle, morally, one could argue, effectively, that coarse angling is the 'cruelist' of all the legal fieldsports; it's why the hypocrite, Martin Salter, ex Labour MP (fishes and shoots) had the word 'utility' removed from the Hunting with Dogs Act. Coarse angling does not have a utility.

That'll rattle a few cages on here.

In reply to Post #128
That'll rattle a few cages on here.

Nah, the forum isn't that much like social media you're safe for now.
Personally I wouldn't call it a sport, a past time, hobby more likely.

The irony of the cruelty has been discussed (sensibly) on the forum before. Let's face it, if the antis wanted to have a pop we haven't made it hard for them, pictures of damaged fish mouths abound everywhere, hell we even name some fish 'so called' affectionately because of it. I couldn't take any pride in catching a damaged fish irrespective of its history and weight.

I put a pic of a fish on the forum a while ago to illustrate the point, luckily for it, the owner removed it where it wouldn't be angled for anymore (a none angling pond).

In reply to Post #129
You forgot to mention the plastic, lead and chemicals companies like Korda, Nash, Fox etc encourages the gullible majority to introduce and leave in our waters

In reply to Post #130
It's on the forum somewhere

The furthering of the catch at all costs idealogy :-(

The guy has clearly had a 'falling down' moment, but the police and the courts take a very dim view in this country of any firearms offences, even if its on your own land and in desperation. The fact of the matter is that hes clearly shot an animal whilst members of the public where present on his land. I cant help feeling that if hed used a different more stealthy method and then been caught later on, the punishment might have been less. That will also be his shotgun license revoked as well, so going forward hes gonna have even more issues with vermin control to deal with as well.

Personally i completely understand, as a fishery owner you must feel like youve been thrown to the wolves by the eco loons and the public who think all furry animals are from Disney films.

In reply to Post #132
Bloke was a buffoon; 'vermin culling' (rats/otters/birds/swans/eggs) on private fisheries is practiced all over the place at varying levels - not that I condone such activity as the law is the law but plenty run the risk to protect their commercial interests . . . . they just do it in a very stealthy way and don't tell anyone about it / get caught doing it!

I think those last 2 posts sum it up really for me