I remember Julian ,nutrabait chap can't remember last name
Saying he did very well using half shelfies and half frozen free offerings, eny thoughts , just a random bait thought thanks
Saying he did very well using half shelfies and half frozen free offerings, eny thoughts , just a random bait thought thanks
In reply to Post #1
Cundiff?
Cundiff?
In reply to Post #1
Think you mean Big Bill Cottam, I know he was a fan of the 50% frozen and 50% shelf life baits in a swim.
Particularly Trigga.
Think you mean Big Bill Cottam, I know he was a fan of the 50% frozen and 50% shelf life baits in a swim.
Particularly Trigga.
In reply to Post #3
for what reason i wonder
for what reason i wonder
In reply to Post #4
My thinking is that the Shelf life's give Initial high flavour, attractors and leakage, alongside the potentially more nutritional, lower flavour levels in the frozen baits.
Tim Paisley was another one who liked to use this method on some of his foreign trips.
Can get you a few quicker bites, whilst you work the swim out in the first 24to 48 hours plus.
My thinking is that the Shelf life's give Initial high flavour, attractors and leakage, alongside the potentially more nutritional, lower flavour levels in the frozen baits.
Tim Paisley was another one who liked to use this method on some of his foreign trips.
Can get you a few quicker bites, whilst you work the swim out in the first 24to 48 hours plus.
In reply to Post #5
cant say ive ever used shelfies
cant say ive ever used shelfies
In reply to Post #5
Gary Bayes said the same thing on his Carp Cast I think.
Fair bit of experience and bait knowledge between those three.
Gary Bayes said the same thing on his Carp Cast I think.
Fair bit of experience and bait knowledge between those three.
In reply to Post #5
Pretty much my thinking, and Gary Bayes most definitely said the same.
Initial attraction of I think the glycerin/sugar dip, compared to the switch on as the frozen baits start efflorescing, sugars, salt and enzymes coming out making them 'active'.
Frozen baits often are best after 3 or 4 days.
Pretty much my thinking, and Gary Bayes most definitely said the same.
Initial attraction of I think the glycerin/sugar dip, compared to the switch on as the frozen baits start efflorescing, sugars, salt and enzymes coming out making them 'active'.
Frozen baits often are best after 3 or 4 days.
In reply to Post #2
Ahh yes Cundiffe, maybe Bill Cotton did that aswell
Thanks for explaining why, are shelfies as apposed to frozen in the same bait heavier flavoured then
Ahh yes Cundiffe, maybe Bill Cotton did that aswell
Thanks for explaining why, are shelfies as apposed to frozen in the same bait heavier flavoured then
In reply to Post #6
I've been on sindicates that say no shelfies, as thay believe there inferior, then in the hut selling them , fukin game
I've been on sindicates that say no shelfies, as thay believe there inferior, then in the hut selling them , fukin game
Strange as I'm sure I read some ware that modern shelf life were almost identical to there frozen equivalent just with slightly less egg content which was replaced by the human grade preservative. It also said the frozen bait would turn quicker and get to work while the preserved bait would take longer owing to the preservative.
In reply to Post #11
In reply to Post #2
Ahh yes Cundiffe, maybe Bill Cotton did that aswell
Thanks for explaining why, are shelfies as apposed to frozen in the same bait heavier flavoured then
Sorry I have to reply to you and Goose in the same post.
A number of shelfies have the exact same levels or no flavour as the freezer version.
I am not 100% sure, but I think Bill Cottam and Nutrabaits came up with almost identical boilies in Shelf and freezer version in Trigga.
Strange as I'm sure I read some ware that modern shelf life were almost identical to there frozen equivalent just with slightly less egg content which was replaced by the human grade preservative
As Goose said, the said, it is quite possible that the original Trigga Shelf life had some food grade preservative.
I did use both versions, individually, shelfies first on a water that responded very well to Trigga pellets and the Shelf life version, and the frozen version on Earith, which caught a few.
I know Crafty Catcher the shelfie version are the same as the frozen version, but after boiling and drying are given a glycerine and sugar syrup dip and then dried again to preserve them. I would think a few manufacturers do the same.
On Alton Water, I was happy to use Rod Hutchinson KMG boilies, which are shelf life only, and again they caught their fair share of fish.
I'm not 100% sure, but I have a feeling that glycerine itself might be an attractor.
In reply to Post #2
Ahh yes Cundiffe, maybe Bill Cotton did that aswell
Thanks for explaining why, are shelfies as apposed to frozen in the same bait heavier flavoured then
Sorry I have to reply to you and Goose in the same post.
A number of shelfies have the exact same levels or no flavour as the freezer version.
I am not 100% sure, but I think Bill Cottam and Nutrabaits came up with almost identical boilies in Shelf and freezer version in Trigga.
Strange as I'm sure I read some ware that modern shelf life were almost identical to there frozen equivalent just with slightly less egg content which was replaced by the human grade preservative
As Goose said, the said, it is quite possible that the original Trigga Shelf life had some food grade preservative.
I did use both versions, individually, shelfies first on a water that responded very well to Trigga pellets and the Shelf life version, and the frozen version on Earith, which caught a few.
I know Crafty Catcher the shelfie version are the same as the frozen version, but after boiling and drying are given a glycerine and sugar syrup dip and then dried again to preserve them. I would think a few manufacturers do the same.
On Alton Water, I was happy to use Rod Hutchinson KMG boilies, which are shelf life only, and again they caught their fair share of fish.
I'm not 100% sure, but I have a feeling that glycerine itself might be an attractor.
In reply to Post #12
I'm sure the nutrabaits of old, like the Techni Spice shelfies had a proven winter track record as hookbaits, minimal baiting as they had much higher flavour / multimino attractor levels than normal, per kilo.
Glycerine, you are probably right. I'm sure they can detect the sweetness, and emulsifying properties within, so many preserved baits use the method and catch plenty to not be a winner.
I'm sure the nutrabaits of old, like the Techni Spice shelfies had a proven winter track record as hookbaits, minimal baiting as they had much higher flavour / multimino attractor levels than normal, per kilo.
Glycerine, you are probably right. I'm sure they can detect the sweetness, and emulsifying properties within, so many preserved baits use the method and catch plenty to not be a winner.
In reply to Post #7
Also quite a vested interest though....
Also quite a vested interest though....
In reply to Post #8
Nash shelf life's used to have potassium sorbate in ( most stabilised ones do now ) and the actual boilies where a different from easy to preserve recipe. I used to use scopex squid shellfire as a kid and they were bright orange compared to the brown freezer bait, and looking back on how they tasted I'd be shocked if they contained any fishmeal etc.
Completely different now though.
Nash shelf life's used to have potassium sorbate in ( most stabilised ones do now ) and the actual boilies where a different from easy to preserve recipe. I used to use scopex squid shellfire as a kid and they were bright orange compared to the brown freezer bait, and looking back on how they tasted I'd be shocked if they contained any fishmeal etc.
Completely different now though.
In reply to Post #13
Think ive heard glycerine is used as a hook bait hardener
Think ive heard glycerine is used as a hook bait hardener
Dynamite source was/probably still is 100% a better fish catcher in shelf life. God knows what but it has something...
In reply to Post #16
Bit like the original mainline hookbait enhancement dips
They were good at hardening hookbaits over time.
Bit like the original mainline hookbait enhancement dips
They were good at hardening hookbaits over time.
In reply to Post #18
In reply to Post #17
Second that caught a few on the source 17 plus years ago on a lake that was very deep
Second that caught a few on the source 17 plus years ago on a lake that was very deep
In reply to Post #14
Not really, Gary hasn't been a director of Nashbait for a long, long time, he's also been part time (development only) for some time now. I also trust him as a bloke and don't believe he's personally into the bullshine, least I've always found him straight talking.
Not really, Gary hasn't been a director of Nashbait for a long, long time, he's also been part time (development only) for some time now. I also trust him as a bloke and don't believe he's personally into the bullshine, least I've always found him straight talking.
In reply to Post #21
It wasnt just Gary I meant mate, all have/had a vested interest with their respective companies. Shelf life's are obviously less agro to store/ship etc so they want more people to use them than fresh baits. Good business really. Can't beat a nice fresh bait though imo
It wasnt just Gary I meant mate, all have/had a vested interest with their respective companies. Shelf life's are obviously less agro to store/ship etc so they want more people to use them than fresh baits. Good business really. Can't beat a nice fresh bait though imo
In reply to Post #22
Freshly rolled, um maybe, how fresh is any boiled bait though, especially fishmeal.. Catch the fish and its near frozen in the trawler, landed and transported to processing factory, transported to distributor, sold to bait roller then on to customer. Not really fresh.
Freshly rolled, um maybe, how fresh is any boiled bait though, especially fishmeal.. Catch the fish and its near frozen in the trawler, landed and transported to processing factory, transported to distributor, sold to bait roller then on to customer. Not really fresh.
In reply to Post #23
Splitting hairs a bit aren't you?
Splitting hairs a bit aren't you?
In reply to Post #20
Yep. Weed, silt and coloured water it always does well.
Surely it's not the same if robin red isn't the same though?
Yep. Weed, silt and coloured water it always does well.
Surely it's not the same if robin red isn't the same though?
In reply to Post #23
The key is in the first part of your post
"Freshly rolled" there is always a production process pre manufacturing.
you could say that about most "fresh" food products
28 day aged beef for instance, and dry aged alot longer under controlled conditions
The key is in the first part of your post
"Freshly rolled" there is always a production process pre manufacturing.
you could say that about most "fresh" food products
28 day aged beef for instance, and dry aged alot longer under controlled conditions
Both have pros and cons for me.
Using a freezer bait is for that reason, optimum freshness and use within a few months. The texture is generally softer and for me digestibility is everything, basemix makeup obviously
Shelf life baits have no doubt come on a long way, I think they are brilliant for baiting up and keeping silver fish at bay but you have to question how long they have been sat on said shelf, things denature and lose nutriants
Using a freezer bait is for that reason, optimum freshness and use within a few months. The texture is generally softer and for me digestibility is everything, basemix makeup obviously
Shelf life baits have no doubt come on a long way, I think they are brilliant for baiting up and keeping silver fish at bay but you have to question how long they have been sat on said shelf, things denature and lose nutriants
In reply to Post #22
But assuming they use a preservative the ingredients cost of a shelf life is more and when they said it they sold for the same? Doubt it comes out much different overall.
But assuming they use a preservative the ingredients cost of a shelf life is more and when they said it they sold for the same? Doubt it comes out much different overall.
In reply to Post #28
I am lead to believe that freezing a bait can be beneficial as apposed to freshly rolled and used, am I right, I have all rhese things floating around that I may have read about , please help
I am lead to believe that freezing a bait can be beneficial as apposed to freshly rolled and used, am I right, I have all rhese things floating around that I may have read about , please help
In reply to Post #26
Lots of meats improve when aged as you know, fish however deteriorates as soon as its killed, I'm lucky to live next to the sea and can buy straight from the boat caught same day. Do bait companies know how old/fresh the products they are rolling into their fresh bait is? Is it traceable back to its origin?
Lots of meats improve when aged as you know, fish however deteriorates as soon as its killed, I'm lucky to live next to the sea and can buy straight from the boat caught same day. Do bait companies know how old/fresh the products they are rolling into their fresh bait is? Is it traceable back to its origin?
In reply to Post #30
true mate re meat products, all down to ph values post slaughter, thats not that same for every protein, but all meat changes profile the second its slaughtered, the effects on meat quality leading up to slaughter is huge. PSE (Pale, Soft & Exudative) in Pork, DFD (Dark, Firm & Dry) in beef. Both mainly caused by high stress levels leading up to slaughter and OR exhaustion. Plus you wouldnt want to eat most meat without "hanging" for sometime and bringing down to a core temperature of below 5C, but best practice is between 0c and 3c, much colder and its a pain to bone out and butcher, warmer exceeds legal regulations for food safety critical limits.
Chilling can have a dramatic effect on meat, if chilled too quickly, the meat goes through, what we call "Cold Shortening" of which renders it reducing in size up to 2/3rds in size, makes it very tuff and dark, therefore the correct process with regards to temperature reduction is crucial.
Fish are no different and they can remain in a "fresh" state if looked after in the correct way. Mainly temperature of said product. When fish arrive at said processing plant, the fish will be, and have to be kept at a constant temperature level pre production, if its not, the processor rejects on delivery. (legal regulation for food safety critical limits)
re traceability, every meat/fish product has traceability records on them by labelling laws. If they are not present, then they should not be sold. These traceability records have to be kept and have to be produced when asked for under inspection and for any cases in court for due-diligence defence. without them, said producer will face heavy fines.
Edit - All food products meat or not have to have a traceability code for the producer/consumer by law
true mate re meat products, all down to ph values post slaughter, thats not that same for every protein, but all meat changes profile the second its slaughtered, the effects on meat quality leading up to slaughter is huge. PSE (Pale, Soft & Exudative) in Pork, DFD (Dark, Firm & Dry) in beef. Both mainly caused by high stress levels leading up to slaughter and OR exhaustion. Plus you wouldnt want to eat most meat without "hanging" for sometime and bringing down to a core temperature of below 5C, but best practice is between 0c and 3c, much colder and its a pain to bone out and butcher, warmer exceeds legal regulations for food safety critical limits.
Chilling can have a dramatic effect on meat, if chilled too quickly, the meat goes through, what we call "Cold Shortening" of which renders it reducing in size up to 2/3rds in size, makes it very tuff and dark, therefore the correct process with regards to temperature reduction is crucial.
Fish are no different and they can remain in a "fresh" state if looked after in the correct way. Mainly temperature of said product. When fish arrive at said processing plant, the fish will be, and have to be kept at a constant temperature level pre production, if its not, the processor rejects on delivery. (legal regulation for food safety critical limits)
re traceability, every meat/fish product has traceability records on them by labelling laws. If they are not present, then they should not be sold. These traceability records have to be kept and have to be produced when asked for under inspection and for any cases in court for due-diligence defence. without them, said producer will face heavy fines.
Edit - All food products meat or not have to have a traceability code for the producer/consumer by law
In reply to Post #31
Are you in to pigs
Are you in to pigs
In reply to Post #32
put it this way.
i look after
2 sites that kill and process 6500 pigs per day per site
2 other sites that do on average 3000 pigs per day per site
i also look after multiple sites that process 1200 cattle a day
two sheep plants that vary depending on time of yr, but averagely 4000 sheep per day
one site that produces 40,000 chickens a day
two sites that kill 100,000 ducks, geese and stag turkeys a day
so you could say yes
put it this way.
i look after
2 sites that kill and process 6500 pigs per day per site
2 other sites that do on average 3000 pigs per day per site
i also look after multiple sites that process 1200 cattle a day
two sheep plants that vary depending on time of yr, but averagely 4000 sheep per day
one site that produces 40,000 chickens a day
two sites that kill 100,000 ducks, geese and stag turkeys a day
so you could say yes
In reply to Post #31
Interesting, as you know I'm a fan of my local farm shop and it's butchers department, all their own or local farm meats except for the deli stuff. Everything I buy in there is wrapped indevidualy and in separate paper bag. Never taken much notice but each item only has one ticket stuck on it normally torn when opening the bag, not looked closely but think it has weight per kg and bag weight, price, date and a long code which I assume is the trace part. Interesting the temperature side of things, the butcher has always told me it's best to cook any of the meats from room temperature and not straight from the fridge, especially steaks which I like the pan red hot just to seal the outside and leave the inside almost raw.
Interesting, as you know I'm a fan of my local farm shop and it's butchers department, all their own or local farm meats except for the deli stuff. Everything I buy in there is wrapped indevidualy and in separate paper bag. Never taken much notice but each item only has one ticket stuck on it normally torn when opening the bag, not looked closely but think it has weight per kg and bag weight, price, date and a long code which I assume is the trace part. Interesting the temperature side of things, the butcher has always told me it's best to cook any of the meats from room temperature and not straight from the fridge, especially steaks which I like the pan red hot just to seal the outside and leave the inside almost raw.
In reply to Post #33
That's plenty to do
That's plenty to do
In reply to Post #34
Local butchers/farm shops are brilliant, i train alot of butchers in various parts of the country from Cornwall to up "Tut" north. You will find that low through put business dont have to put a bar code on their products, unless its pre packed, ie vac pac or cling filmed, of which amazes me at times. but a receipt of purchase is sufficient as proof of purchase and then if anything was wrong, one can go back to producer and their traceability records "should" match up with said product, including EU abattoir plant number, everyone has its very own, kill date etc
agree mate re cooking temps, but producers have to follow their rules and take into account "idiots"
but as part of retaining the quality of the meat, and following regulations during the processing part, we have to abide by FSA rules (Food Standard Agency)
When at home, the consumer can pretty much do what they like, as once its left said butchers, and they have done everything to cover their due diligence procedures, then that's fine and they wont get into trouble if someone gets ill.
steak, yes, like a fine wine requires removing from a fridge and left to "warm up", but not for too long, or bacteria is prone to grow. You can argue that the bacteria is only surface based, therefore dies under high temperatures during the cooking process. Not all bacteria is bad for us, in fact we need it, but the "Pathogenic" bacteria will cause us issues.
what you will find when meat is cooked "cold" its shrinks in the pan more.
Local butchers/farm shops are brilliant, i train alot of butchers in various parts of the country from Cornwall to up "Tut" north. You will find that low through put business dont have to put a bar code on their products, unless its pre packed, ie vac pac or cling filmed, of which amazes me at times. but a receipt of purchase is sufficient as proof of purchase and then if anything was wrong, one can go back to producer and their traceability records "should" match up with said product, including EU abattoir plant number, everyone has its very own, kill date etc
agree mate re cooking temps, but producers have to follow their rules and take into account "idiots"
but as part of retaining the quality of the meat, and following regulations during the processing part, we have to abide by FSA rules (Food Standard Agency)
When at home, the consumer can pretty much do what they like, as once its left said butchers, and they have done everything to cover their due diligence procedures, then that's fine and they wont get into trouble if someone gets ill.
steak, yes, like a fine wine requires removing from a fridge and left to "warm up", but not for too long, or bacteria is prone to grow. You can argue that the bacteria is only surface based, therefore dies under high temperatures during the cooking process. Not all bacteria is bad for us, in fact we need it, but the "Pathogenic" bacteria will cause us issues.
what you will find when meat is cooked "cold" its shrinks in the pan more.
In reply to Post #35
too much sometimes mate.
im one of the few people in the country that train and issue slaughter licenses.
Love my job and all thats involved. i also spend alot of time developing qualifications and consultancy work within the general food industry
too much sometimes mate.
im one of the few people in the country that train and issue slaughter licenses.
Love my job and all thats involved. i also spend alot of time developing qualifications and consultancy work within the general food industry
In reply to Post #37
So, minus my waffling, each fishmeal bag will contain a traceability code and batch number, of which batches are tested for various things, fat level, protein, moisture blah blah so that it meets correct guided specifications.
where things can get complicated is the variations of specifications. Most, if not all products have various uses that dictate different specifications.
So, minus my waffling, each fishmeal bag will contain a traceability code and batch number, of which batches are tested for various things, fat level, protein, moisture blah blah so that it meets correct guided specifications.
where things can get complicated is the variations of specifications. Most, if not all products have various uses that dictate different specifications.
In reply to Post #37
Thanks for info,
Thanks for info,
In reply to Post #28
The electricity costs to run freezers more than outweighs the cost of the preservation, so of course it comes into it
The electricity costs to run freezers more than outweighs the cost of the preservation, so of course it comes into it
In reply to Post #39
A tad too much most probably
A tad too much most probably
In reply to Post #38
Assume the rolling company licence's are to ensure compliance with storage and traceability ect. Could be a nightmare for the small company to maintain use able stock with minimal waste in such a fickle market.
Assume the rolling company licence's are to ensure compliance with storage and traceability ect. Could be a nightmare for the small company to maintain use able stock with minimal waste in such a fickle market.
In reply to Post #42
Now thats something im not familiar with on the whole.
i know the bait producer i use stores all dry products correctly and follows stock rotation, im sure that big boys also do, but im also confident there's a few smaller ones that possibly dont, nor possibly have the knowledge of the rules.
Now thats something im not familiar with on the whole.
i know the bait producer i use stores all dry products correctly and follows stock rotation, im sure that big boys also do, but im also confident there's a few smaller ones that possibly dont, nor possibly have the knowledge of the rules.
In reply to Post #37
Your job, involves a wealth of experience Frenzy. Wow.
So much more than being just a carp forum MOD
Your job, involves a wealth of experience Frenzy. Wow.
So much more than being just a carp forum MOD
In reply to Post #44
been in it along time mate. I always tell my students "one thing i cant teach is experience"
Im heavily involved with farm to fork and everything in between from welfare, process flow, through to meat and food technology. I have a degree in food technology, studied at Bristol Uni in between working, then set my business up 19 years ago.
not as daft as i make out most the time
That's what's always made me smile when i read things about bait. all the "experts"
been in it along time mate. I always tell my students "one thing i cant teach is experience"
Im heavily involved with farm to fork and everything in between from welfare, process flow, through to meat and food technology. I have a degree in food technology, studied at Bristol Uni in between working, then set my business up 19 years ago.
not as daft as i make out most the time
That's what's always made me smile when i read things about bait. all the "experts"
In reply to Post #45
Take bait comments with a pinch of million year old pink rock salt.
Just check the BBF date first.
Take bait comments with a pinch of million year old pink rock salt.
Just check the BBF date first.
In reply to Post #46
indeed mate.
there are a VERY few i trust 110% regarding bait
Best before dates, i wouldnt worry about really
Use by dates, im very fussy about
indeed mate.
there are a VERY few i trust 110% regarding bait
Best before dates, i wouldnt worry about really
Use by dates, im very fussy about
In reply to Post #40
In that case why do companies like ABS add a surcharge to shelf life for the preservative but not the freezer electricity?
In that case why do companies like ABS add a surcharge to shelf life for the preservative but not the freezer electricity?
In reply to Post #48
I collect my bait from A.B.S. it's made and bagged fresh ready for me to collect on my chosen day. I believe they send bait out the same way. Freshly made not frozen.
I collect my bait from A.B.S. it's made and bagged fresh ready for me to collect on my chosen day. I believe they send bait out the same way. Freshly made not frozen.
In reply to Post #42
as we've spoken about in the past.....that is correct lol
as we've spoken about in the past.....that is correct lol
In reply to Post #26
I get meat needs to hang for a period, I don't eat it anymore so dont have a say it in but some of the trendy steak places I've been to in the past have dry age fridges and what gets trimmed off ( the dark outer bit ) seems to be absolutely criminal amounts of wastage ?
I get meat needs to hang for a period, I don't eat it anymore so dont have a say it in but some of the trendy steak places I've been to in the past have dry age fridges and what gets trimmed off ( the dark outer bit ) seems to be absolutely criminal amounts of wastage ?
In reply to Post #48
Because if they plan correctly, they minimize the freezing time to zero before they got sold. And don't underestimate what is already included in the overhead of those companies.
Because if they plan correctly, they minimize the freezing time to zero before they got sold. And don't underestimate what is already included in the overhead of those companies.
In reply to Post #51
its a bit of a fine art, Dry ageing.
the outer "Crust" holds in a certain amount of crucial moisture and best removed pre cooking as it can be rather chewy, a tad like biltong
the process takes along time, loses 30%, if not more dependant on ft and moisture content of the flesh, this varies dependant on breed, feed, age, sex of animal, hence why it commands the price it does
its a bit of a fine art, Dry ageing.
the outer "Crust" holds in a certain amount of crucial moisture and best removed pre cooking as it can be rather chewy, a tad like biltong
the process takes along time, loses 30%, if not more dependant on ft and moisture content of the flesh, this varies dependant on breed, feed, age, sex of animal, hence why it commands the price it does
In reply to Post #46
I get the 'use by' date, but for myself, I'm not keen on the 'best before' date on foods, preferring the use by date as absolute. Yesterday as an example I bought a lot of vegetables, best before date was today, they will be fine for a few days in my fridge, and the potatoes could last a week or more.
Further down the thread was mentioned about bait companies using fresh traceable ingredients, but I know of one Essex firm who picked up and used a few ingredients that were close to or after the best before date.
I remember reading a few bait companies pointing out that white fishmeal changed consistency through the year as the fish migrated or were seasonal. That could mean colour, protein, even fats etc changed from batch to batch. With a short bag life will the bait be the same?
I get the 'use by' date, but for myself, I'm not keen on the 'best before' date on foods, preferring the use by date as absolute. Yesterday as an example I bought a lot of vegetables, best before date was today, they will be fine for a few days in my fridge, and the potatoes could last a week or more.
Further down the thread was mentioned about bait companies using fresh traceable ingredients, but I know of one Essex firm who picked up and used a few ingredients that were close to or after the best before date.
I remember reading a few bait companies pointing out that white fishmeal changed consistency through the year as the fish migrated or were seasonal. That could mean colour, protein, even fats etc changed from batch to batch. With a short bag life will the bait be the same?
In reply to Post #54
Use by dates - high in protein, fats and moisture, short shelf life. May cause food poisoning if eaten past stated date. Producers put a shorter "shelf life" date than really required to cover their backsides from people who dont understand bacteria multiplcation.
Best before - less volatile, normally canned, highly process, if past the date, not harmful to human health, but can be depleted of content, taste and texture
if you think about it...steak, dry aged, 28 day minimum....its all about how its kept and still perfect to eat, therefore by passing said "use by" date
Use by dates - high in protein, fats and moisture, short shelf life. May cause food poisoning if eaten past stated date. Producers put a shorter "shelf life" date than really required to cover their backsides from people who dont understand bacteria multiplcation.
Best before - less volatile, normally canned, highly process, if past the date, not harmful to human health, but can be depleted of content, taste and texture
if you think about it...steak, dry aged, 28 day minimum....its all about how its kept and still perfect to eat, therefore by passing said "use by" date
In reply to Post #55
I could tell you a story about a flavour compounder company i consult for and train their staff how to compound, one of the biggest in the country and the bait people who turned up to buy out of date stock during a "sale" as it costs a small fortune to dispose of out of date flavours and the bait industry doesn't fall into that bracket
But i wont openly
I could tell you a story about a flavour compounder company i consult for and train their staff how to compound, one of the biggest in the country and the bait people who turned up to buy out of date stock during a "sale" as it costs a small fortune to dispose of out of date flavours and the bait industry doesn't fall into that bracket
But i wont openly
In reply to Post #56
Bargain flavours
Bargain flavours
In reply to Post #56
I often when I worked for the council see flavours dumped by huge bait company at local council tip, why do flavours cost lots to dump thanks
I often when I worked for the council see flavours dumped by huge bait company at local council tip, why do flavours cost lots to dump thanks
In reply to Post #56
Don't worry about that. There are more of those 'secrets' out there.
I've worked a couple of months for a company that produces milk powder.
Spilled milk powder is categorized in 2 classes: b and c.
Class c is product that was scraped from the floor and one wasn't sure if was low fat, regular powder or instant powder.
Class b is product that was scooped from a pile of spilled powder and wasn't in direct contact with the floor.
Class b is shipped to low cost brands like one can find in the Aldi or Lidl.
Class c is used for animal feed calf milk replacer.
Don't worry about that. There are more of those 'secrets' out there.
I've worked a couple of months for a company that produces milk powder.
Spilled milk powder is categorized in 2 classes: b and c.
Class c is product that was scraped from the floor and one wasn't sure if was low fat, regular powder or instant powder.
Class b is product that was scooped from a pile of spilled powder and wasn't in direct contact with the floor.
Class b is shipped to low cost brands like one can find in the Aldi or Lidl.
Class c is used for animal feed calf milk replacer.
In reply to Post #56
Can I ask where you got the experience of flavour compounding to be able to enter a flavour house and teach their staff how to compound? I thought you were in meat business?
reason I ask is although I think most flavours are gimmicks I find the chemistry fascinating
Can I ask where you got the experience of flavour compounding to be able to enter a flavour house and teach their staff how to compound? I thought you were in meat business?
reason I ask is although I think most flavours are gimmicks I find the chemistry fascinating
In reply to Post #48
Without seeing the current set up I couldn't say BUT a lot of manufacturers give an extra few hours drying to shelf life baits, after they add the preservative to bring the moisture content down to give a reliable shelf life. preservatives aren't enough on their own its how they're used.
So it COULD be that you're paying for the extra rack time, as quite often companies, in order to make use of space, will only have an area for drying bait equal to 1.5 days worth of production.
For most its a case of freezer bait in the morning, bagged in the afternoon, whilst the shelf life is made just as the space is made available and left all night and bagged first thing in the morning. at least thats how it works at two units who I know to do around 600kg a day ( larger end of medium sized company )
The other reason could simply be that they're adding a lot more preservative measures in as opposed to handling the bait correctly ( rushed method ) i.e potassium sorbate, monopropylene glycol, egg powder, etc all stable ingredients. and these things when it comes to brands who produce cheap bait, are invariable costing more per kilo than the standard basemix / eggs.
Third reason could simply be because they think anglers will pay it.
Wit regards to freezer electricity, in base costings those freezers are running all the time. be it that its holding frozen egg, shop stock, selling from frozen etc ( freshly rolled can be a week old in the freezer unless explicitly stating "rolled to order" ) all sorts, and is usually already accounted for in overheads.
I see dynamite gave installed solar panels and claim it powers their entire factory, Im massively dubious of that knowing the machinery they have but they will hardly post a utilities statement so whose to say.
Without seeing the current set up I couldn't say BUT a lot of manufacturers give an extra few hours drying to shelf life baits, after they add the preservative to bring the moisture content down to give a reliable shelf life. preservatives aren't enough on their own its how they're used.
So it COULD be that you're paying for the extra rack time, as quite often companies, in order to make use of space, will only have an area for drying bait equal to 1.5 days worth of production.
For most its a case of freezer bait in the morning, bagged in the afternoon, whilst the shelf life is made just as the space is made available and left all night and bagged first thing in the morning. at least thats how it works at two units who I know to do around 600kg a day ( larger end of medium sized company )
The other reason could simply be that they're adding a lot more preservative measures in as opposed to handling the bait correctly ( rushed method ) i.e potassium sorbate, monopropylene glycol, egg powder, etc all stable ingredients. and these things when it comes to brands who produce cheap bait, are invariable costing more per kilo than the standard basemix / eggs.
Third reason could simply be because they think anglers will pay it.
Wit regards to freezer electricity, in base costings those freezers are running all the time. be it that its holding frozen egg, shop stock, selling from frozen etc ( freshly rolled can be a week old in the freezer unless explicitly stating "rolled to order" ) all sorts, and is usually already accounted for in overheads.
I see dynamite gave installed solar panels and claim it powers their entire factory, Im massively dubious of that knowing the machinery they have but they will hardly post a utilities statement so whose to say.
In reply to Post #60
simply because i spent alot of time training myself up. Its only following a recipe really, much like anything, then technical change the specs to suits what purpose the flavour is used for.
the amount of money word leaders spend on formulas are ridiculous
favours certainly arent gimmicks, especially when producing NI flavours...fascinating procedures, its one of the things i love about my job, i never stop learning.
if you also look at fragrances, totally different concept, but our noses tell us much the same story as a flavour t a first glance
Im predominately within the meat industry, but ive consulted within sweets, crisps, chips, ready meals, sweets etc
simply because i spent alot of time training myself up. Its only following a recipe really, much like anything, then technical change the specs to suits what purpose the flavour is used for.
the amount of money word leaders spend on formulas are ridiculous
favours certainly arent gimmicks, especially when producing NI flavours...fascinating procedures, its one of the things i love about my job, i never stop learning.
if you also look at fragrances, totally different concept, but our noses tell us much the same story as a flavour t a first glance
Im predominately within the meat industry, but ive consulted within sweets, crisps, chips, ready meals, sweets etc
In reply to Post #59
yes mate.
i have a contract with Alpro Uk
interesting process
yes mate.
i have a contract with Alpro Uk
interesting process
In reply to Post #57
"brand new flavour, especially blended for us"
yeah right, i saw a pallet out out of date 25kg a tub in the warehouse last week
"brand new flavour, especially blended for us"
yeah right, i saw a pallet out out of date 25kg a tub in the warehouse last week
In reply to Post #64
Makes me wonder why the companies don't eBay it off, just before the Use by date ?
Claw some money back on a soon to be waste product.
Makes me wonder why the companies don't eBay it off, just before the Use by date ?
Claw some money back on a soon to be waste product.
In reply to Post #65
dead lines too tight mate
dead lines too tight mate
In reply to Post #62
Huge money in colourings, flavours, preservatives, herbs and spices. My work as a service engineer in the vacuum industry occasionally took me into places involved these industries. Vacuum is often used in research and production for drying and liquid extraction and separation
Huge money in colourings, flavours, preservatives, herbs and spices. My work as a service engineer in the vacuum industry occasionally took me into places involved these industries. Vacuum is often used in research and production for drying and liquid extraction and separation
In reply to Post #67
the wonderful world of production mate...it never ceases to amaze me and ive never stopped learning.
the wonderful world of production mate...it never ceases to amaze me and ive never stopped learning.
In reply to Post #66
Thought so.
Is that why more manufacturers are going down the shelf life route... less waste, longer time to sell/use the finished end product. Because of the preservatives ?
Thought so.
Is that why more manufacturers are going down the shelf life route... less waste, longer time to sell/use the finished end product. Because of the preservatives ?
In reply to Post #69
i think, and its only a personal view, the preserve route is easier.
one produces, packs etc, holds stock, less time constraints, less volatile, easier to despatch, less come back, less waste, less complaints, less reliance on courier mistakes, easier for customer to store, more profit.
i still wouldnt use it
i think, and its only a personal view, the preserve route is easier.
one produces, packs etc, holds stock, less time constraints, less volatile, easier to despatch, less come back, less waste, less complaints, less reliance on courier mistakes, easier for customer to store, more profit.
i still wouldnt use it
In reply to Post #68
Ive been in it for nearly 20 years now pal, worked in fresh food, canning, long shelf life and now brewing.
Have worked and do work for some of the biggest producers in the world - enjoy it and never stop learning.
Good analogy on the use by & BBE.
Ive been in it for nearly 20 years now pal, worked in fresh food, canning, long shelf life and now brewing.
Have worked and do work for some of the biggest producers in the world - enjoy it and never stop learning.
Good analogy on the use by & BBE.
In reply to Post #62
But if you taste most “flavours” on the carp market they taste of the same semi sweet glycerol or solvent type burn? So are the majority these frangraces?
Yes natural identical is different I agree, but in being so surely limits adaptability of said flavouring?
I'll message you at some point in a bit more detail about something that's tweaked my curiosity
But if you taste most “flavours” on the carp market they taste of the same semi sweet glycerol or solvent type burn? So are the majority these frangraces?
Yes natural identical is different I agree, but in being so surely limits adaptability of said flavouring?
I'll message you at some point in a bit more detail about something that's tweaked my curiosity
In reply to Post #72
all depends on said make up of said flavour really, hard to comment without knowing what the compound specification is. when i first started consulting with Belmay some 15 odd yrs ago, i was amazed that they produce 118 different types of raspberry flavour, some granted were powdered (my fav if im honest) all designed to do varying things within various products.
Fragrancies are just that. a smell, they use it in plug in air fresheners, washing up liquid etc and even added to WD40 to give it its distinctive smell. flavour and frangrancies are made on seperate sites, reducing the risk of cross contamination of products.
One of the best places i consulted in was/is Swizzels Matlow. Sweet manufcature producing all sorts of chews etc, Drumsticks, pear drops, milk bottles, cola bottles, rainbow drops and lovehearts to name but a few. The company compounds its own flavours and wont sell outside of their company to anyone....it came in very handy as i could get hold of their test batches so i could have a play with it within bait. some worked, some didnt, depending on how the flavour was made and for what purpose. the best one, most effective was the hard boiled sweet flavours as they are designed to take really high temperatures within the boiled sweet process, i cant remember off hand what temperature the sugar reached to form the sweet, but if memory serves me right, it was 220c, far exceeding the limits when boiling a bait, so the flavour with stood the bait boiling. i took the core temp of a boille after boiling for 2 mins, it didnt exceed 60c (dependant on size of bait rolled)
i really enjoyed working with Cereform, they use alot of powdered flavours within their various cake/muffin mixes, the butterscotch powder is wonderful, but you do have to put slightly more in a boillie mix to obtain a level that is appealing to the angler, fish however (and i dont now this as a fact) will no doubt detect it easier than we do
Some of the spice powders that Fine lady Bakeries use within their hot cross buns are also wonderful, you can taste it when im in the factory through merely breathing through your nose. Ive not tried it in a bait as yet
again, NI flavours have different variations.
all depends on said make up of said flavour really, hard to comment without knowing what the compound specification is. when i first started consulting with Belmay some 15 odd yrs ago, i was amazed that they produce 118 different types of raspberry flavour, some granted were powdered (my fav if im honest) all designed to do varying things within various products.
Fragrancies are just that. a smell, they use it in plug in air fresheners, washing up liquid etc and even added to WD40 to give it its distinctive smell. flavour and frangrancies are made on seperate sites, reducing the risk of cross contamination of products.
One of the best places i consulted in was/is Swizzels Matlow. Sweet manufcature producing all sorts of chews etc, Drumsticks, pear drops, milk bottles, cola bottles, rainbow drops and lovehearts to name but a few. The company compounds its own flavours and wont sell outside of their company to anyone....it came in very handy as i could get hold of their test batches so i could have a play with it within bait. some worked, some didnt, depending on how the flavour was made and for what purpose. the best one, most effective was the hard boiled sweet flavours as they are designed to take really high temperatures within the boiled sweet process, i cant remember off hand what temperature the sugar reached to form the sweet, but if memory serves me right, it was 220c, far exceeding the limits when boiling a bait, so the flavour with stood the bait boiling. i took the core temp of a boille after boiling for 2 mins, it didnt exceed 60c (dependant on size of bait rolled)
i really enjoyed working with Cereform, they use alot of powdered flavours within their various cake/muffin mixes, the butterscotch powder is wonderful, but you do have to put slightly more in a boillie mix to obtain a level that is appealing to the angler, fish however (and i dont now this as a fact) will no doubt detect it easier than we do
Some of the spice powders that Fine lady Bakeries use within their hot cross buns are also wonderful, you can taste it when im in the factory through merely breathing through your nose. Ive not tried it in a bait as yet
again, NI flavours have different variations.
In reply to Post #59
Hi mate,
are you referring to the category waste system?
CAT 1
CAT 2
CAT 3
Hi mate,
are you referring to the category waste system?
CAT 1
CAT 2
CAT 3
In reply to Post #73
Interesting thanks, 2 random silly questions
Bun spice flavour, is that derived from food industry
I'm sure I used powdered fruit enhancer, Hutchinson or nutrabaits
Think it was used as compliment to a fruit flavour, thanks
Interesting thanks, 2 random silly questions
Bun spice flavour, is that derived from food industry
I'm sure I used powdered fruit enhancer, Hutchinson or nutrabaits
Think it was used as compliment to a fruit flavour, thanks
In reply to Post #75
certainly most, if not all flavours are derived from the food industry. Note i said MOST.
the food industry has far more power, resources and need to produce a flavour to sell on mass, the amount that the bait industry and its largely NOT regulated at all only uses a fraction of the flavour amount that the food industry requires.
The cost of compounding is astronomical, all the test, development etc is vast and a bait firm (i suspect) couldnt sustain that process.
Fruit enhancers are lovely and Rods was one of them, they are used in many food products, sweets being one of them
certainly most, if not all flavours are derived from the food industry. Note i said MOST.
the food industry has far more power, resources and need to produce a flavour to sell on mass, the amount that the bait industry and its largely NOT regulated at all only uses a fraction of the flavour amount that the food industry requires.
The cost of compounding is astronomical, all the test, development etc is vast and a bait firm (i suspect) couldnt sustain that process.
Fruit enhancers are lovely and Rods was one of them, they are used in many food products, sweets being one of them
In reply to Post #74
Yes, I'm
Yes, I'm
In reply to Post #76
Wasn't Hutchy one of the few who did come up with flavour compounds himself?
"Think that flavour has scope, compound x"...
I remember reading The Carp Strikes Back about some of the flavour samples he was sent and how he tried them in baits, and even his thoughts on flavour usage and where they came from.
There were a few that I'm certain Nutrabaits at their strongest came up with Garlic Mint, Fruit Special, quite possibly their Under The counter specials, and possibly Lockey and Solar with the original Squid and Octopus.
I think that loads of standard flavours have been 'converted' into fishing use from baking, soft drink making, sweets and the like.
It would be interesting to know which flavours have been developed with fishing in mind!
Wasn't Hutchy one of the few who did come up with flavour compounds himself?
"Think that flavour has scope, compound x"...
I remember reading The Carp Strikes Back about some of the flavour samples he was sent and how he tried them in baits, and even his thoughts on flavour usage and where they came from.
There were a few that I'm certain Nutrabaits at their strongest came up with Garlic Mint, Fruit Special, quite possibly their Under The counter specials, and possibly Lockey and Solar with the original Squid and Octopus.
I think that loads of standard flavours have been 'converted' into fishing use from baking, soft drink making, sweets and the like.
It would be interesting to know which flavours have been developed with fishing in mind!
In reply to Post #78
Hutchy was a bit before my time in the game mate
i know a bait firm may well come up with a concept and the flavour technologist will create it
Hutchy was a bit before my time in the game mate
i know a bait firm may well come up with a concept and the flavour technologist will create it
Just bought some Dynamite bait Source for an up and coming river trip and they have a use by date on them which is pleasing to see
In reply to Post #80
If you look at any food packaging, it will have customer info on it, fresh, canned, preserved, frozen etc, sadly, bait doesnt need to nor required to by law. Interesting as i was on a steering group the other month with FSA and some of the heads of the food industry. i had an off the record conversation regarding bait
If you look at any food packaging, it will have customer info on it, fresh, canned, preserved, frozen etc, sadly, bait doesnt need to nor required to by law. Interesting as i was on a steering group the other month with FSA and some of the heads of the food industry. i had an off the record conversation regarding bait
We shouldn't get too carried away with the flavours produced by the food flavour industry and how we perceive them relative to the ability to attract carp etc.
Volatile odourant chemicals are used to produce food flavours there are also many other chemical combinations used to enhance, complement , or otherwise adjust the overall taste perception.
But critically these flavours etc were not developed for the aqueous world or the chemoreception processes of the carp or other fish
Many bait companies worldwide now have/ access to, the knowledge and facilities to put together a flavour/attractant specifically designed for carp or other fish.
They are based on validated known attractants selected for process friendly, balanced leakage rates and synergistic action.
Quite often neutral “masking”chemicals may also be added to confer an odour that can be recognised by us humans.
I know of several UK bait companies who have formulated their own flavours /attractants
Volatile odourant chemicals are used to produce food flavours there are also many other chemical combinations used to enhance, complement , or otherwise adjust the overall taste perception.
But critically these flavours etc were not developed for the aqueous world or the chemoreception processes of the carp or other fish
Many bait companies worldwide now have/ access to, the knowledge and facilities to put together a flavour/attractant specifically designed for carp or other fish.
They are based on validated known attractants selected for process friendly, balanced leakage rates and synergistic action.
Quite often neutral “masking”chemicals may also be added to confer an odour that can be recognised by us humans.
I know of several UK bait companies who have formulated their own flavours /attractants
In reply to Post #82
very true, but the "norm" is often purchased for bait firms who dont have that access.
very true, but the "norm" is often purchased for bait firms who dont have that access.
In reply to Post #81
Good on Dynamite then
Good on Dynamite then
In reply to Post #80
Frozen or selfie, believe dynamite have been doing it for a while.
Frozen or selfie, believe dynamite have been doing it for a while.
In reply to Post #85
selfie
selfie
In reply to Post #84
Don't a few do it already? I know ccmoore does. Sticky certainly does on a few products. I'm sure there's a few more to
Don't a few do it already? I know ccmoore does. Sticky certainly does on a few products. I'm sure there's a few more to
In reply to Post #87
The ones selling in Europe should have a use date.
The ones selling in Europe should have a use date.
In reply to Post #87
Nash does
Nash does
Interesting reading chaps, I never really noticed it until today after reading this thread 
I have a load of Nash Instant action and Scopex squid in the shed that I was using on one venue, will have a look when I get a minute
As a prebaiting bait I think shelfies are bang on due to their hardness, the only thing that has concerned me is how long they have been sat on said shelves! the dates will help a lot
I have a load of Nash Instant action and Scopex squid in the shed that I was using on one venue, will have a look when I get a minute
As a prebaiting bait I think shelfies are bang on due to their hardness, the only thing that has concerned me is how long they have been sat on said shelves! the dates will help a lot
In reply to Post #88
All ‘feed' baits (not hookbaits, which are classed as lures) sold in this country SHOULD have a best before date, nutritional analysis and list of ingredients on the label, as well as the FSA/TS Feed Hygiene Registration number and APHA ABP number.
These are requirements of U.K. animal feed regulations, under which bait is regulated, and any U.K. manufacturer not meeting these requirements is in breach of regulations and risks a visit from Trading Standards.
Only reason a few get away without doing it properly currently is that they've managed to stay under TS radar so far because either they're not high profile enough or because TS in many areas are under-resourced and prioritising other things currently.
There are, sadly, a lot of amateurish/unprofessional and non-compliant operators in bait, plus a few unscrupulous ones too I dare say.
All ‘feed' baits (not hookbaits, which are classed as lures) sold in this country SHOULD have a best before date, nutritional analysis and list of ingredients on the label, as well as the FSA/TS Feed Hygiene Registration number and APHA ABP number.
These are requirements of U.K. animal feed regulations, under which bait is regulated, and any U.K. manufacturer not meeting these requirements is in breach of regulations and risks a visit from Trading Standards.
Only reason a few get away without doing it properly currently is that they've managed to stay under TS radar so far because either they're not high profile enough or because TS in many areas are under-resourced and prioritising other things currently.
There are, sadly, a lot of amateurish/unprofessional and non-compliant operators in bait, plus a few unscrupulous ones too I dare say.
In reply to Post #91
interesting how the low through put companies get away with it
interesting how the low through put companies get away with it
We've always had best before and “do not feed to humans” on the labels lol.
Trouble is a LOt of bait shipped these days is done so without fancy packaging and labels because frankly, a quality label that survives and adheres through the freezing process can be fickle depending on what it's sticking to.
Custom printed bags are nice but again a cost.
If anglers are willing to pay fairly for what is made then more of the industry will left themselves sorted however.
With regards to FSA that's just a registration and virtually none of tge big boys get checked, ABP is generally tge one more regulated and inspected ( within bait ) but as it's mostly ABP3 material it really isn't difficult to adhere too.
I've seen people using fresh brown crab meat in their baits, which requires a much stricter set of rules, and dynamite used to do fresh fish?
Trouble is a LOt of bait shipped these days is done so without fancy packaging and labels because frankly, a quality label that survives and adheres through the freezing process can be fickle depending on what it's sticking to.
Custom printed bags are nice but again a cost.
If anglers are willing to pay fairly for what is made then more of the industry will left themselves sorted however.
With regards to FSA that's just a registration and virtually none of tge big boys get checked, ABP is generally tge one more regulated and inspected ( within bait ) but as it's mostly ABP3 material it really isn't difficult to adhere too.
I've seen people using fresh brown crab meat in their baits, which requires a much stricter set of rules, and dynamite used to do fresh fish?
In reply to Post #93
The cost of packaging and labels is hardly a valid argument for not correctly packing or labelling a product, and wouldn't be accepted by any regulatory authority! It also means there's a very un-level playing field, with some operators ‘investing' in compliance and others treating its avoidance as a way to reduce costs and increase their margins.
FSA/TS registration under the FH Regulations DOES involve annual inspections and checks on both label compliance and nutritional declarations. Authorities may reduce inspection frequency/intensity after regular proof of compliance, but obviously those flying under the radar by not being registered in the first place won't be inspected as part of scheduled audits - until they one day receive an unannounced visit, which could result in prosecution.
Your argument that it costs too much for small bait companies to comply with the Regs, so they don't, is indicative of a pretty irresponsible portion of operators who are taking people for a ride because they can't be bothered and would rather protect their profit.
Would you buy food from a business that thought it acceptable to save cost by not bothering with labelling? What else might they not be bothering with??!!
The cost of packaging and labels is hardly a valid argument for not correctly packing or labelling a product, and wouldn't be accepted by any regulatory authority! It also means there's a very un-level playing field, with some operators ‘investing' in compliance and others treating its avoidance as a way to reduce costs and increase their margins.
FSA/TS registration under the FH Regulations DOES involve annual inspections and checks on both label compliance and nutritional declarations. Authorities may reduce inspection frequency/intensity after regular proof of compliance, but obviously those flying under the radar by not being registered in the first place won't be inspected as part of scheduled audits - until they one day receive an unannounced visit, which could result in prosecution.
Your argument that it costs too much for small bait companies to comply with the Regs, so they don't, is indicative of a pretty irresponsible portion of operators who are taking people for a ride because they can't be bothered and would rather protect their profit.
Would you buy food from a business that thought it acceptable to save cost by not bothering with labelling? What else might they not be bothering with??!!
In reply to Post #94
minus the label information eliminates any chance of traceability that ultimately protects the customer
minus the label information eliminates any chance of traceability that ultimately protects the customer
In reply to Post #95
Absolutely right - traceability is a vital part of labelling.
Absolutely right - traceability is a vital part of labelling.
In reply to Post #94
These posts bring up some interesting issues.
If you buy a 1kg bag of boilies from the freezer section, be it Mainline, Crafty Catcher, Nutrabaits whoever, the boilies will be in a nice plastic bag, complete with full labelling ingredients etc. 2.5 or 5kg could also be in a proper packing bag.
Now order 10kg that the shop might not hold as a stock item and they could well be in a plain unlabelled bag, 'made specially', with or without any labels at all.
Go to a butcher or greengrocer, and chose loose produce, they put it into a plain bag. The greengrocer especially rarely labels it.
Dynamite fish boilies, I remember them, wasn't that an effort to use the fish in place of fresh eggs as the liquid content?
That was available in both shelf and freezer versions. As a shelf life it is going to need properly preserving.
They were then improved with liquid egg in later versions.
We've always had best before and “do not feed to humans” on the labels lol.
Trouble is a LOt of bait shipped these days is done so without fancy packaging and labels because frankly, a quality label that survives and adheres through the freezing process can be fickle depending on what it's sticking to.
Custom printed bags are nice but again a cost.
If anglers are willing to pay fairly for what is made then more of the industry will left themselves sorted however.
With regards to FSA that's just a registration and virtually none of tge big boys get checked, ABP is generally tge one more regulated and inspected ( within bait ) but as it's mostly ABP3 material it really isn't difficult to adhere too.
I've seen people using fresh brown crab meat in their baits, which requires a much stricter set of rules, and dynamite used to do fresh fish?
In reply to Post #93
The cost of packaging and labels is hardly a valid argument for not correctly packing or labelling a product, and wouldn't be accepted by any regulatory authority! It also means there's a very un-level playing field, with some operators ‘investing' in compliance and others treating its avoidance as a way to reduce costs and increase their margins.
FSA/TS registration under the FH Regulations DOES involve annual inspections and checks on both label compliance and nutritional declarations. Authorities may reduce inspection frequency/intensity after regular proof of compliance, but obviously those flying under the radar by not being registered in the first place won't be inspected as part of scheduled audits - until they one day receive an unannounced visit, which could result in prosecution.
Your argument that it costs too much for small bait companies to comply with the Regs, so they don't, is indicative of a pretty irresponsible portion of operators who are taking people for a ride because they can't be bothered and would rather protect their profit.
Would you buy food from a business that thought it acceptable to save cost by not bothering with labelling? What else might they not be bothering with??!!
These posts bring up some interesting issues.
If you buy a 1kg bag of boilies from the freezer section, be it Mainline, Crafty Catcher, Nutrabaits whoever, the boilies will be in a nice plastic bag, complete with full labelling ingredients etc. 2.5 or 5kg could also be in a proper packing bag.
Now order 10kg that the shop might not hold as a stock item and they could well be in a plain unlabelled bag, 'made specially', with or without any labels at all.
Go to a butcher or greengrocer, and chose loose produce, they put it into a plain bag. The greengrocer especially rarely labels it.
Dynamite fish boilies, I remember them, wasn't that an effort to use the fish in place of fresh eggs as the liquid content?
That was available in both shelf and freezer versions. As a shelf life it is going to need properly preserving.
They were then improved with liquid egg in later versions.
We've always had best before and “do not feed to humans” on the labels lol.
Trouble is a LOt of bait shipped these days is done so without fancy packaging and labels because frankly, a quality label that survives and adheres through the freezing process can be fickle depending on what it's sticking to.
Custom printed bags are nice but again a cost.
If anglers are willing to pay fairly for what is made then more of the industry will left themselves sorted however.
With regards to FSA that's just a registration and virtually none of tge big boys get checked, ABP is generally tge one more regulated and inspected ( within bait ) but as it's mostly ABP3 material it really isn't difficult to adhere too.
I've seen people using fresh brown crab meat in their baits, which requires a much stricter set of rules, and dynamite used to do fresh fish?
In reply to Post #93
The cost of packaging and labels is hardly a valid argument for not correctly packing or labelling a product, and wouldn't be accepted by any regulatory authority! It also means there's a very un-level playing field, with some operators ‘investing' in compliance and others treating its avoidance as a way to reduce costs and increase their margins.
FSA/TS registration under the FH Regulations DOES involve annual inspections and checks on both label compliance and nutritional declarations. Authorities may reduce inspection frequency/intensity after regular proof of compliance, but obviously those flying under the radar by not being registered in the first place won't be inspected as part of scheduled audits - until they one day receive an unannounced visit, which could result in prosecution.
Your argument that it costs too much for small bait companies to comply with the Regs, so they don't, is indicative of a pretty irresponsible portion of operators who are taking people for a ride because they can't be bothered and would rather protect their profit.
Would you buy food from a business that thought it acceptable to save cost by not bothering with labelling? What else might they not be bothering with??!!
In reply to Post #97
Regarding Lose products, labels are not required, pre packed however falls into the labelling laws bracket.
Fruit and veg are deemed as low risk
Regarding Lose products, labels are not required, pre packed however falls into the labelling laws bracket.
Fruit and veg are deemed as low risk
In reply to Post #98
The below is slightly jargonistic, but might help some of the smaller producers and came directly from the FSA to me via my link into the them
Commission Notice (2019/C 225/01) provided guidance on the implementation of certain provisions of Regulation (EC) 183/2005, which lays down the requirements for feed hygiene, to clarify the application of animal feed legislation to bait. The notice advised ‘Fishing baits designed to be scattered to attract fish to an area (often known as ground bait) are considered to fall within the definition of feed as covered by Regulation (EC) No 178/2002. Therefore, producers of these ground baits must be considered as feed business operators and be registered in accordance with the Feed Hygiene Regulation. However, fish baits intended to be attached onto a fish hook whose purpose is therefore not to meet the nutritional needs of an animal should not be considered as animal feed.
The FSA is the central competent authority for the animal feed regulations, however, enforcement is carried out by local authorities. Your local Trading Standards Officer should be able to advise you regarding any individual enquiries. Please use the link below which is the link to the .gov website - Find your local Trading Standards office. All you need to do is enter your postcode to find the contact details of your local office.
https://www.tradingstandards.uk/consumers/support-advice
The below is slightly jargonistic, but might help some of the smaller producers and came directly from the FSA to me via my link into the them
Commission Notice (2019/C 225/01) provided guidance on the implementation of certain provisions of Regulation (EC) 183/2005, which lays down the requirements for feed hygiene, to clarify the application of animal feed legislation to bait. The notice advised ‘Fishing baits designed to be scattered to attract fish to an area (often known as ground bait) are considered to fall within the definition of feed as covered by Regulation (EC) No 178/2002. Therefore, producers of these ground baits must be considered as feed business operators and be registered in accordance with the Feed Hygiene Regulation. However, fish baits intended to be attached onto a fish hook whose purpose is therefore not to meet the nutritional needs of an animal should not be considered as animal feed.
The FSA is the central competent authority for the animal feed regulations, however, enforcement is carried out by local authorities. Your local Trading Standards Officer should be able to advise you regarding any individual enquiries. Please use the link below which is the link to the .gov website - Find your local Trading Standards office. All you need to do is enter your postcode to find the contact details of your local office.
https://www.tradingstandards.uk/consumers/support-advice
In reply to Post #99
Very interesting and as all these goo's, cloudy liquids, hydros etc are not attached to the hook they therefore should be labelled appropriately.
So does this apply too all bait companies regardless of size?
Very interesting and as all these goo's, cloudy liquids, hydros etc are not attached to the hook they therefore should be labelled appropriately.
So does this apply too all bait companies regardless of size?
In reply to Post #100
id argue that type of liquids is a form of ground bait to attract fish
id argue that type of liquids is a form of ground bait to attract fish
In reply to Post #101
Agreed, can see small bait rollers claiming there 5kg bags of boilies are hook baits including those bulk orders of 100kg.
Then again I can't see it being enforced as it would be very time consuming for the authorities and courts.
Agreed, can see small bait rollers claiming there 5kg bags of boilies are hook baits including those bulk orders of 100kg.
Then again I can't see it being enforced as it would be very time consuming for the authorities and courts.
In reply to Post #102
they wont get away with that for long mate
they wont get away with that for long mate
In reply to Post #98
You got me looking!
I have Copdock Mill, Gladwells 10minutes down the road, so I quite often pick up pellets from them.
Sometimes I will do a 'pick and mix' of sizes and types, other times I will buy a bag of 'Copdock Mill' pellets.
Loose pick and mix have no 'use by' or best before date, yet the prepacked do. Conceivably they could actually come from the same manufacturers batch, yet loose require no use by, and could potentially be out of date. Extremely unlikely I admit as the use by date on the bag I picked up this week is 2024, with a complete nutritional breakdown, and limited ingredients list.
You got me looking!
I have Copdock Mill, Gladwells 10minutes down the road, so I quite often pick up pellets from them.
Sometimes I will do a 'pick and mix' of sizes and types, other times I will buy a bag of 'Copdock Mill' pellets.
Loose pick and mix have no 'use by' or best before date, yet the prepacked do. Conceivably they could actually come from the same manufacturers batch, yet loose require no use by, and could potentially be out of date. Extremely unlikely I admit as the use by date on the bag I picked up this week is 2024, with a complete nutritional breakdown, and limited ingredients list.
In reply to Post #104
exactly mate
each whole bulk bag will have all the correct label information on them. This benefits the buyer from their supplier and protects them against inferior products (ie out of date)
If lose, as your pick n mix suggests, the bags are simply decanted into a receptacle, but what should happen is traceability records per decanted bag should be kept by the supplier, therefore they and you can "trace" back if there's an issue back to said producer.
i suspect 9 out of 10 dont keep said records in this instance
exactly mate
each whole bulk bag will have all the correct label information on them. This benefits the buyer from their supplier and protects them against inferior products (ie out of date)
If lose, as your pick n mix suggests, the bags are simply decanted into a receptacle, but what should happen is traceability records per decanted bag should be kept by the supplier, therefore they and you can "trace" back if there's an issue back to said producer.
i suspect 9 out of 10 dont keep said records in this instance
In reply to Post #105
Interested to see how this pans out for the big rolling companies that roll for several smaller companies, who will be responsible for the labeling. What happens with companies like abs that supply mixes and ingredients to small rollers, loads of these around rolling his bait as thier own without trace labeling.
Interested to see how this pans out for the big rolling companies that roll for several smaller companies, who will be responsible for the labeling. What happens with companies like abs that supply mixes and ingredients to small rollers, loads of these around rolling his bait as thier own without trace labeling.
In reply to Post #106
labels to be supplied to fit the bags for their own sale. The producer produces the technical info and traceability to the customer
In simple terms
small firm approaches bigger firm with a specification
Bigger firm produces said product for the smaller firm, bags and labels with smaller firms labels, generally supplied by smaller firm
on completion of said order, a batch code (traceability info) is provided to smaller firm to provide current information during production and keeps for audit purpose
lots of companies (not talking bait here) produce for other companies, for instance, Sainsbury do not have their own production sites, these are tendered out.
labels to be supplied to fit the bags for their own sale. The producer produces the technical info and traceability to the customer
In simple terms
small firm approaches bigger firm with a specification
Bigger firm produces said product for the smaller firm, bags and labels with smaller firms labels, generally supplied by smaller firm
on completion of said order, a batch code (traceability info) is provided to smaller firm to provide current information during production and keeps for audit purpose
lots of companies (not talking bait here) produce for other companies, for instance, Sainsbury do not have their own production sites, these are tendered out.
In reply to Post #107
What's your thought on a huge company's bait firm sticking new use by labels over the top of old ones before distributing to a customer/store? I know of this happening multiple times over the last few months 👀
What's your thought on a huge company's bait firm sticking new use by labels over the top of old ones before distributing to a customer/store? I know of this happening multiple times over the last few months 👀
In reply to Post #108
im not a fan if im honest
i was inspecting a place (not going to name them and it wasnt bait) doing just that, so i asked for the traceability records, they didnt match, so i made them dispose of the whole batch. 250kgs of a freshly cooked meat
I wasnt very popular
im not a fan if im honest
i was inspecting a place (not going to name them and it wasnt bait) doing just that, so i asked for the traceability records, they didnt match, so i made them dispose of the whole batch. 250kgs of a freshly cooked meat
I wasnt very popular
In reply to Post #94
Wind it in mate I wasn't saying they're “valid”excuses just telling you the reasons as I know them to be. A hell of a lot of us talk.
Of course wiping 30/50 pence a kilo off of your profit is going to cause people to go alternative routes, to think otherwise is naive.
As for inspections I'm sorry but you're wrong, or lying. One of the two, annual inspections aren't a thing in the bait world even ABP is basically an every 3 year job.
As for would I personally buy stuff without fancy packaging I regularly do thanks mate....
Farmers market, PYO, local butcher for the dogs treats etc.
Personally, I've seen people massively reduce their profit margins to stay afloat and if they aren't affording a label it isn't so much to increase their profit as it is to preserve the last of it.
I'm not going to get into any debates as you seem pretty obsessed with this topic and must only use the 4/5 big boys for bait, which you're welcome to continue to do
Wind it in mate I wasn't saying they're “valid”excuses just telling you the reasons as I know them to be. A hell of a lot of us talk.
Of course wiping 30/50 pence a kilo off of your profit is going to cause people to go alternative routes, to think otherwise is naive.
As for inspections I'm sorry but you're wrong, or lying. One of the two, annual inspections aren't a thing in the bait world even ABP is basically an every 3 year job.
As for would I personally buy stuff without fancy packaging I regularly do thanks mate....
Farmers market, PYO, local butcher for the dogs treats etc.
Personally, I've seen people massively reduce their profit margins to stay afloat and if they aren't affording a label it isn't so much to increase their profit as it is to preserve the last of it.
I'm not going to get into any debates as you seem pretty obsessed with this topic and must only use the 4/5 big boys for bait, which you're welcome to continue to do
In reply to Post #98
Fruit and veg low risk? Have you not seen the warning cartoons with the banana peels? 😂
Fruit and veg low risk? Have you not seen the warning cartoons with the banana peels? 😂
In reply to Post #111
cartons are processed contents and form part of a specification
whole fruit is NOT
But i see the humorous joke
cartons are processed contents and form part of a specification
whole fruit is NOT
But i see the humorous joke
In reply to Post #110
Mozzi, this has been a very decent thread up till now with lots of information sharing etc.
when replying to a post, just think about how one might take your response. Sometimes its not what one says, but the way one says it that can make a huge difference
Mozzi, this has been a very decent thread up till now with lots of information sharing etc.
when replying to a post, just think about how one might take your response. Sometimes its not what one says, but the way one says it that can make a huge difference
In reply to Post #110
Not sure why I'm dignifying this post with a reply, but I can assure you I'm neither wrong nor lying, and have direct experience of both inspections.
Don't appreciate being called a liar by someone who knows nothing about me.
I'm not the obsessive here, so I'll leave you to it. Enjoy your inevitable bit of ‘last wordism'.
Not sure why I'm dignifying this post with a reply, but I can assure you I'm neither wrong nor lying, and have direct experience of both inspections.
Don't appreciate being called a liar by someone who knows nothing about me.
I'm not the obsessive here, so I'll leave you to it. Enjoy your inevitable bit of ‘last wordism'.
In reply to Post #114
lets not ruin yet another decent thread hey.
i will be watching closely and delete anything thats off track, as its a shame to let this go silly.
lets not ruin yet another decent thread hey.
i will be watching closely and delete anything thats off track, as its a shame to let this go silly.
In reply to Post #113
I'll stop being defensive when there is an equilibrium in the industry. It's completely unsustainable at the moment and everyone is penny pinching to keep bait at a decent price for honest hard working folk to afford and then someone comes along and makes all sort of insinuation about small companies standards. It isn't on.
I and many others have suffered financially and stuck to the rules but I do not despise those that make other cuts to make ends meat. Most of them still follow the rules and standards and practices laid out anyway they just don't have they official tick sheet, which as I alluded to earlier, is definitely not an annually inspected thing. In other areas of industry no doubt it is but in bait it really isn't. One of the biggest in the U.K. got inspected recently, first time in 3 years!
I'll stop being defensive when there is an equilibrium in the industry. It's completely unsustainable at the moment and everyone is penny pinching to keep bait at a decent price for honest hard working folk to afford and then someone comes along and makes all sort of insinuation about small companies standards. It isn't on.
I and many others have suffered financially and stuck to the rules but I do not despise those that make other cuts to make ends meat. Most of them still follow the rules and standards and practices laid out anyway they just don't have they official tick sheet, which as I alluded to earlier, is definitely not an annually inspected thing. In other areas of industry no doubt it is but in bait it really isn't. One of the biggest in the U.K. got inspected recently, first time in 3 years!
In reply to Post #116
Inspection depends on previous result/grade...simple as
Inspection depends on previous result/grade...simple as
In reply to Post #115
Sorry Joss, I'd just love to hear from one firm that's actually inspected annually in the bait trade.
The irony is the only reason we add animal by products to baits is to increase their nutritional profile for the fish lol
Sorry Joss, I'd just love to hear from one firm that's actually inspected annually in the bait trade.
The irony is the only reason we add animal by products to baits is to increase their nutritional profile for the fish lol
In reply to Post #118
That i dont have information on, in saying that, i could find out easily enough, but id never divulge
nutritional value has no interest in inspection. personal views have NO interest within an inspection
trust me, i inspect and guidelines dont take into account if one has beef with other parts of the industry.....you either follow rules or you dont.
if you do, great, if you dont, recommendations are provided, if not followed, then one can suffer the consequences.
Plus these days, i can see people being more aware of processes etc, dont take much to make a complaint. Although thats a really below the belt way of going around things
That i dont have information on, in saying that, i could find out easily enough, but id never divulge
nutritional value has no interest in inspection. personal views have NO interest within an inspection
trust me, i inspect and guidelines dont take into account if one has beef with other parts of the industry.....you either follow rules or you dont.
if you do, great, if you dont, recommendations are provided, if not followed, then one can suffer the consequences.
Plus these days, i can see people being more aware of processes etc, dont take much to make a complaint. Although thats a really below the belt way of going around things
In reply to Post #114
Sorry Colin I don't mean to be confrontational. I'm passionate about an industry I work in and speak to dozens of smaller firms, about ten medium and 3 large firms very regularly.
The whole consensus is that st it needs to be regulated differently, asides from a certain number of river fish permitable, nothing made from the carp bait trade is going to end up on the human food chain. And small manufacturers take a lot of care to make sure there is decent ingredients in their baits. Hell I even use free range ( when the flu doesn't shut that shop up ) and keep all hydrolysates in several fridges that rinse me financially with energy prices. This is despite there being no reason to ( most hydros stored ambient in most of the industries that use them ).
Sorry Colin I don't mean to be confrontational. I'm passionate about an industry I work in and speak to dozens of smaller firms, about ten medium and 3 large firms very regularly.
The whole consensus is that st it needs to be regulated differently, asides from a certain number of river fish permitable, nothing made from the carp bait trade is going to end up on the human food chain. And small manufacturers take a lot of care to make sure there is decent ingredients in their baits. Hell I even use free range ( when the flu doesn't shut that shop up ) and keep all hydrolysates in several fridges that rinse me financially with energy prices. This is despite there being no reason to ( most hydros stored ambient in most of the industries that use them ).
In reply to Post #120
thats all well land good, but if you get inspected, do you keep records, batch codes, storage methods, pest control records, temperature records...i could go on!
thats all well land good, but if you get inspected, do you keep records, batch codes, storage methods, pest control records, temperature records...i could go on!
In reply to Post #120
Mozzi, this is only an offer, and if you would like me to look at your policies and procedures, im more than happy too.
i want nothing in return
Mozzi, this is only an offer, and if you would like me to look at your policies and procedures, im more than happy too.
i want nothing in return
In reply to Post #121
Yes, and those batch codes are the bane of my life because dependant on the day the batch we produce may cross over basemix ( from two drums for example end of one beginning fo another ) plus the basemixes are, highly complex. For an understatement lol. And obviously each batch of basemix might be made from cross over sacks of ingredient and so on and so on.
I'm not entirely sure how long I am meant to hold these records for, no one seems to give a s*** lol
Yes, and those batch codes are the bane of my life because dependant on the day the batch we produce may cross over basemix ( from two drums for example end of one beginning fo another ) plus the basemixes are, highly complex. For an understatement lol. And obviously each batch of basemix might be made from cross over sacks of ingredient and so on and so on.
I'm not entirely sure how long I am meant to hold these records for, no one seems to give a s*** lol
In reply to Post #122
I appreciate that, we're moving later in tge year and I may come to you for some brain storming on the easiest compliant lay outs etc. I'm sure there is areas of my operation I can improve!
I appreciate that, we're moving later in tge year and I may come to you for some brain storming on the easiest compliant lay outs etc. I'm sure there is areas of my operation I can improve!
In reply to Post #123
2 years in general, seems rather excessive in my book.
so with your process, it would seem like stock control, rotation and storage is your key to compliance
2 years in general, seems rather excessive in my book.
so with your process, it would seem like stock control, rotation and storage is your key to compliance
In reply to Post #124
every single producer can improve, if they say they cant, then they are watched further...
always best to get ahead of the game in my book.
every single producer can improve, if they say they cant, then they are watched further...
always best to get ahead of the game in my book.
In reply to Post #125
That and handling.
Given how sensitive carp are I plan around minimal clean in the day I.e each day everything is cleaned down once as I will only roll tge fishmeal one day tge nut bait the next. We rinse everything a LOT due to my OCD.
Two years?! Mine go back 7, didn't realise I had to keep em the first year lol. Time for a clear out
That and handling.
Given how sensitive carp are I plan around minimal clean in the day I.e each day everything is cleaned down once as I will only roll tge fishmeal one day tge nut bait the next. We rinse everything a LOT due to my OCD.
Two years?! Mine go back 7, didn't realise I had to keep em the first year lol. Time for a clear out
In reply to Post #127
As you know someone I know has recently started up on a small scale and is bait recipe obsessed. He has been inspected for licencing which he now has but said he found the inspection very helpful with a great deal of advice from the inspector.
As you know someone I know has recently started up on a small scale and is bait recipe obsessed. He has been inspected for licencing which he now has but said he found the inspection very helpful with a great deal of advice from the inspector.
In reply to Post #127
nothing wrong with keep records for longer!
Storage is handling really
forget carp, think production, start with procurement, the rest falls into place
nothing wrong with keep records for longer!
Storage is handling really
forget carp, think production, start with procurement, the rest falls into place
In reply to Post #128
Thats good to know as inspectors, can be your best friend and your worst enemy if one wont take notice
Thats good to know as inspectors, can be your best friend and your worst enemy if one wont take notice
In reply to Post #130
This thread is a real eye opener, hats of to those who do the bait
And all it entails
This thread is a real eye opener, hats of to those who do the bait
And all it entails
In reply to Post #131
it can be a bit of a mine field at times.
food for thought when people keep asking for "cheap bait"
it can be a bit of a mine field at times.
food for thought when people keep asking for "cheap bait"
In reply to Post #105
I must admit to a bit of vested interest as I did used to work in Copdock Mill shop myself.
I don't know how it is done now, but when I loaded the loose buckets I could not fit a whole bag in, so the extra would go underneath the table, still in the bag. When the bag was empty, I left the empty bag underneath until the buckets needed to be refilled.
Not perfect record keeping, but gave me traceability.
Now, here is where we have some possible contention. Out of date products, damaged items, bags, cans of all items animal feeds, bait, pellets could be sold, but sold as OUT OF DATE, or damaged with the reference on till as 'Splits', a price agreed between buyer and seller. This could actually include goods within date, but a split bag.
There were some Fisheries and bait companies from 1man bands to someone rather larger that would buy split bags, be that Baileys No.1, dented tins of sweetcorn, Vitalin, birdfoods, pellets, or whatever.
I must admit to a bit of vested interest as I did used to work in Copdock Mill shop myself.
I don't know how it is done now, but when I loaded the loose buckets I could not fit a whole bag in, so the extra would go underneath the table, still in the bag. When the bag was empty, I left the empty bag underneath until the buckets needed to be refilled.
Not perfect record keeping, but gave me traceability.
Now, here is where we have some possible contention. Out of date products, damaged items, bags, cans of all items animal feeds, bait, pellets could be sold, but sold as OUT OF DATE, or damaged with the reference on till as 'Splits', a price agreed between buyer and seller. This could actually include goods within date, but a split bag.
There were some Fisheries and bait companies from 1man bands to someone rather larger that would buy split bags, be that Baileys No.1, dented tins of sweetcorn, Vitalin, birdfoods, pellets, or whatever.
Can. Understand why so many fill them with hovis finest now lol.
What I really need is massive investment, I look at all tge areas I bottle next or fall short and it's always where I've had to make compromise.
If I were starting again from scratch I'd not even entertain the idea without at least 100k capital to start it.
What I really need is massive investment, I look at all tge areas I bottle next or fall short and it's always where I've had to make compromise.
If I were starting again from scratch I'd not even entertain the idea without at least 100k capital to start it.
In reply to Post #132
Exactly. Food for thought.
I personally find the input on this thread from Frenzy, Mozzi and everyone that has contributed so far, really informative to me, and any interested home/commercial bait rollers.
Also any ready rolled boile users that have no time/or interest in making bait as it puts some of the 'hidden costs' and human labour time, besides ingredient price rises, that need to needs be factored into the final end user price.
Exactly. Food for thought.
I personally find the input on this thread from Frenzy, Mozzi and everyone that has contributed so far, really informative to me, and any interested home/commercial bait rollers.
Also any ready rolled boile users that have no time/or interest in making bait as it puts some of the 'hidden costs' and human labour time, besides ingredient price rises, that need to needs be factored into the final end user price.
Due to sensory issues and hyper hydrosis I work nights, I start at 6pm finish 8am, I then do all the books and packaging stuff up at my parents, as they're around all day it gets collect from. Couriers there. I then walk the dogs and get some sleep and get up and do the same thing.
Every couple of weeks I send an email / text to regulars saying unavailable for a couple days and take time for myself.
And as it is I know full well in the e next 3 months unrelenting ingredient increases, utility increases and fuel costs mean I would be SIGNiFICANTLY better off on the predicted benefit I'd be entitled to. I honestly think I'll have moved back home with the parents by Christmas and I'm a 28 year old business owner. The world shouldn't be this way.
Then I have to dedicate time to arguing with frenzy and then Alby on whatever profile he's using. 🤣👌
Ona side note even a total lack of compliance, if you make a decent bait and charge an affordable price, it's the same deal. I don't sell below 8/8.50 a kilo and people scoff at that. Even though in trade bulk the basemix still costs more than a lot of baits retail for.
It's honesty killing me. I'm lucky I may inherit a house, but doubt I could afford the upkeep. I speak to people earning less than 2k a month pre tax and I think how the hell do you do that? And this is at national firms with millions in turnover as well. It doesn't look good for the future for the working class in this country, and it's terrifying because the reality is it isn't a situation you can “graft” your way out of anymore
Every couple of weeks I send an email / text to regulars saying unavailable for a couple days and take time for myself.
And as it is I know full well in the e next 3 months unrelenting ingredient increases, utility increases and fuel costs mean I would be SIGNiFICANTLY better off on the predicted benefit I'd be entitled to. I honestly think I'll have moved back home with the parents by Christmas and I'm a 28 year old business owner. The world shouldn't be this way.
Then I have to dedicate time to arguing with frenzy and then Alby on whatever profile he's using. 🤣👌
Ona side note even a total lack of compliance, if you make a decent bait and charge an affordable price, it's the same deal. I don't sell below 8/8.50 a kilo and people scoff at that. Even though in trade bulk the basemix still costs more than a lot of baits retail for.
It's honesty killing me. I'm lucky I may inherit a house, but doubt I could afford the upkeep. I speak to people earning less than 2k a month pre tax and I think how the hell do you do that? And this is at national firms with millions in turnover as well. It doesn't look good for the future for the working class in this country, and it's terrifying because the reality is it isn't a situation you can “graft” your way out of anymore
In fact typing all this out makes me really wonder what the f*** I'm doing to be fair. It's madness.
In reply to Post #137
Sell up and start fishing, chill out on the bank with some good food and look for a future out of bait bashing.
Sell up and start fishing, chill out on the bank with some good food and look for a future out of bait bashing.
In reply to Post #138
Exactly why I stopped rolling. Got to around 200-250kg a week of bait by hand. Lost a lot of family and fishing time. When I can earn more and have more bank time. Enjoyed it and learned a lot. But wouldn't do it again without a decent production set up.
Exactly why I stopped rolling. Got to around 200-250kg a week of bait by hand. Lost a lot of family and fishing time. When I can earn more and have more bank time. Enjoyed it and learned a lot. But wouldn't do it again without a decent production set up.
In reply to Post #137
Maybe coming on here has become a pre-work workout by the sounds of it
Maybe coming on here has become a pre-work workout by the sounds of it
In reply to Post #136
Get a proper job!
Get a proper job!
In reply to Post #136
Mate,
I know exactly where you are coming from.
I am a hotel and restaurant manager, by qualifications and experience and with a 30mile drive I can't afford to work for less than £500 a week before tax etc.
I'd much rather work closer to home, but there is nothing locally. I was made redundant 3 times in 3 years thanks to Covid etc, and there is a surplus of managers who know nothing else so I either find a job or live on Universal credit of £630 a month, with the council taking £300 automatically towards rent as I got into arrears after doing agency work and Uc paying nothing the month after if I earnt more than £250 a week.
The bait companies with bigger names should be following guidelines trading standards etc, but I bet many aren't.
Mate,
I know exactly where you are coming from.
I am a hotel and restaurant manager, by qualifications and experience and with a 30mile drive I can't afford to work for less than £500 a week before tax etc.
I'd much rather work closer to home, but there is nothing locally. I was made redundant 3 times in 3 years thanks to Covid etc, and there is a surplus of managers who know nothing else so I either find a job or live on Universal credit of £630 a month, with the council taking £300 automatically towards rent as I got into arrears after doing agency work and Uc paying nothing the month after if I earnt more than £250 a week.
The bait companies with bigger names should be following guidelines trading standards etc, but I bet many aren't.
In reply to Post #141
Three words.
Seven letters
3 of them are “F”
Three words.
Seven letters
3 of them are “F”
Someone spends a considerable amount of time studying ingredients and the properties, formulating and developing baits, both free offerings and hook baits. Carries on learning about liquids, glugs, hydros ect. Invests a lot of time and money, works sixty to eighty hours a week or more. Learns the regs required for licencing and traceability ect. Comes onto a forum and freely gives advice and imparts his knowledge to those that want it. And the advice he gets in return ' get a proper job' sorry think that would get a response from many that would probably see them banned. Unjustly in my opinion
In reply to Post #136
As you say mate, without the money to invest in production you won't be able to compete with the big boys.
You sound like me, too focussed on doing the best job possible at a fair price to the detriment of your own finances. Best thing I did was get a job for somebody, now all I have to worry about is what I'm best at and leave them to do the same
As you say mate, without the money to invest in production you won't be able to compete with the big boys.
You sound like me, too focussed on doing the best job possible at a fair price to the detriment of your own finances. Best thing I did was get a job for somebody, now all I have to worry about is what I'm best at and leave them to do the same
In reply to Post #141
Im sure thats tongue in cheek comment.
Alot of smaller bait firms are driven by passion as opposed to huge volume and turnover, of which i "doth my cap"
For a small producer, it's actually not that difficult to be compliant with some help and doesnt really need huge investment unless you pay for a consultant. I wont say what i charge per day
Im sure thats tongue in cheek comment.
Alot of smaller bait firms are driven by passion as opposed to huge volume and turnover, of which i "doth my cap"
For a small producer, it's actually not that difficult to be compliant with some help and doesnt really need huge investment unless you pay for a consultant. I wont say what i charge per day
In reply to Post #146
Definitely tongue in cheek as its not the first time he's said it.
Definitely tongue in cheek as its not the first time he's said it.
In reply to Post #146
Yes definitely hats off,
Yes definitely hats off,
In reply to Post #147
Yes it was meant to be a gentle ribbing the first time I said it, and now the second time, and I take the response in good humour even if it wasn't meant that way.
Joking aside I admire your passion and also doth my cap but I do question whether you can sustain your business model.
If you enjoy doing it then that's good, everyone wants a job that they like doing but the way it reads that's not always the case.
Yes it was meant to be a gentle ribbing the first time I said it, and now the second time, and I take the response in good humour even if it wasn't meant that way.
Joking aside I admire your passion and also doth my cap but I do question whether you can sustain your business model.
If you enjoy doing it then that's good, everyone wants a job that they like doing but the way it reads that's not always the case.
In reply to Post #149
Know Mozzi is very passionate about his bait and the business but must find it very frustrating in the current climate with costs of materials and overheads rising so rapidly. Tough situation with not wanting to compromise the quality of his product but knowing his customers are also feeling the financial burden in their lives of the cost of living rising so rapidly. All these cost increases are out of our control, some will say just buy less of your quality bait but many that were already only buying what they need it may mean going considerably less and I think looking at the used tackle market many are giving up altogether.I
Know Mozzi is very passionate about his bait and the business but must find it very frustrating in the current climate with costs of materials and overheads rising so rapidly. Tough situation with not wanting to compromise the quality of his product but knowing his customers are also feeling the financial burden in their lives of the cost of living rising so rapidly. All these cost increases are out of our control, some will say just buy less of your quality bait but many that were already only buying what they need it may mean going considerably less and I think looking at the used tackle market many are giving up altogether.I
In reply to Post #150
It's heartbreaking to see how tough it has all become today.
You either dig deep and hold out for another year or two to see what happens or you fold. We are in the same boat and it's tough. Annoyingly we are really really busy and it's growing every day......but on the flip side we are getting hammered on all sides with prices.
I'm trying to stay positive
It's heartbreaking to see how tough it has all become today.
You either dig deep and hold out for another year or two to see what happens or you fold. We are in the same boat and it's tough. Annoyingly we are really really busy and it's growing every day......but on the flip side we are getting hammered on all sides with prices.
I'm trying to stay positive
In reply to Post #151
keep going mate, i wish you all the success during this frustrating times
as ive said before earlier on this thread, if you need anything to help you remain compliant, just say.
im not saying you are non compliant by the way
keep going mate, i wish you all the success during this frustrating times
as ive said before earlier on this thread, if you need anything to help you remain compliant, just say.
im not saying you are non compliant by the way
In reply to Post #151
You've set it all out really well Gav , great reputation so keep at it. Hopefully times will reverse and get easier
You've set it all out really well Gav , great reputation so keep at it. Hopefully times will reverse and get easier
In reply to Post #153
Thanks joss and Carl!
I alway used to look at other brands and think “my god you have it easy” but I bet they don't anymore.
The one thing I do know is that we are at a crossroads now. We either upsize or we settle as we are. The jury is out today 😂😂
Thanks joss and Carl!
I alway used to look at other brands and think “my god you have it easy” but I bet they don't anymore.
The one thing I do know is that we are at a crossroads now. We either upsize or we settle as we are. The jury is out today 😂😂
In reply to Post #152
It's odd that we have Mozzi explaining the difficulties of being a cottage industry, trying to earn a wage, and at best it sounds like not more than minimum wage
Yet when Baitroom cracked his prices up to £45.00 per pot for what is in effect the most important part of what we use it was armageddon on here
Funny old world that we live in !!
It's odd that we have Mozzi explaining the difficulties of being a cottage industry, trying to earn a wage, and at best it sounds like not more than minimum wage
Yet when Baitroom cracked his prices up to £45.00 per pot for what is in effect the most important part of what we use it was armageddon on here
Funny old world that we live in !!
Anyway, shelf life or frozen, will more anglers be banging in the overtime and doing a bit on the side to make ends meet and have less bank time? From memory I've only ever used two shelf life baits, source and bloodworm, both given to me while waiting for my usual freezer bait to be delivered. Caught on both so maybe it's just a historic thing preferring freezer bait but confidence is important. Anyone actually given both a full long term test with a freezer bait and it's matching shelf life?
In reply to Post #156
Can't say I've done that long term test, but caught on both I'm currently using both together in many different baiting cinarios
What I can say is having hard ready mades has been a game changer lots of times for range work with a stick.
Can't say I've done that long term test, but caught on both I'm currently using both together in many different baiting cinarios
What I can say is having hard ready mades has been a game changer lots of times for range work with a stick.
In reply to Post #156
I Have with Sticky Krill
Could blank equally on both ... My gut feeling is a lot of folks will move across to shelflife
1) No wastage
2) No running a freezer that's hardly ever opened ... Fuel costs will come into things
3) Convenience of going
My own thoughts are that shelf lives have improved and most arent using a shelf life on the hook but a pop-up etc
I Have with Sticky Krill
Could blank equally on both ... My gut feeling is a lot of folks will move across to shelflife
1) No wastage
2) No running a freezer that's hardly ever opened ... Fuel costs will come into things
3) Convenience of going
My own thoughts are that shelf lives have improved and most arent using a shelf life on the hook but a pop-up etc
In reply to Post #158
That's another head ache, surely a good quality shelf life food bait should be better than a brightly coloured over flavoured blatant pop-up.
That's another head ache, surely a good quality shelf life food bait should be better than a brightly coloured over flavoured blatant pop-up.
In reply to Post #155
That is different. That is greed.
Also hookbaits aren't subject to the same regulations and it's FAR less labour intensive ( with respect to Gav, who I know makes his own pop up mix ) .
You get between 15 and 20 pots per kilo of normal hookbaits that will be more with pop ups due to lake of density and no one needs to make servers hundred pounds per kilo. Mark ( T carper ) on here hand rolls his literally one at a time and doesn't charge such silly money.
There is a balance to be had but most anglers don't see the cost even when explained to them
That is different. That is greed.
Also hookbaits aren't subject to the same regulations and it's FAR less labour intensive ( with respect to Gav, who I know makes his own pop up mix ) .
You get between 15 and 20 pots per kilo of normal hookbaits that will be more with pop ups due to lake of density and no one needs to make servers hundred pounds per kilo. Mark ( T carper ) on here hand rolls his literally one at a time and doesn't charge such silly money.
There is a balance to be had but most anglers don't see the cost even when explained to them
In reply to Post #160
There is a balance to be had but most anglers don't see the cost even when explained to them
Rolled my own on and off for a long time and as a shed roller it's an expensive game pending what you are using, similar to everything, the world has gone mad
Said it for a long time about hookbaits why would any roller want to knock out KGs scrapping a living when you can knock 40 baits out for a tenner or more!
Like most things, it will go nuts, won't be long before people are trying to charge £20 per KG of freezer bait but you only need a bit because it's top quality... Couple this with the usual bait bollox like mentioned earlier in the thread, the genuine folks and the con men we are in for an arse spanking and to be honest I can totally see why, I wouldn't roll it for virtually nothing
There is a balance to be had but most anglers don't see the cost even when explained to them
Rolled my own on and off for a long time and as a shed roller it's an expensive game pending what you are using, similar to everything, the world has gone mad
Said it for a long time about hookbaits why would any roller want to knock out KGs scrapping a living when you can knock 40 baits out for a tenner or more!
Like most things, it will go nuts, won't be long before people are trying to charge £20 per KG of freezer bait but you only need a bit because it's top quality... Couple this with the usual bait bollox like mentioned earlier in the thread, the genuine folks and the con men we are in for an arse spanking and to be honest I can totally see why, I wouldn't roll it for virtually nothing
In reply to Post #161
when you think about the money peope pay for tackle, membership./s bait is always contested re price
so...when one buys the latest bivvy for, lets say £800 and a syndicate of, lets say £1000, do they haggle for a better price?...i doubt it, yet when regards to bait, they all want it for feck all...
when you think about the money peope pay for tackle, membership./s bait is always contested re price
so...when one buys the latest bivvy for, lets say £800 and a syndicate of, lets say £1000, do they haggle for a better price?...i doubt it, yet when regards to bait, they all want it for feck all...
In reply to Post #162
Bait is EVERYTHING for me, it's what they eat
I think you hit the nail on the head there Joss, for a lot of “carp” anglers it's the tent and reels that REALLY matter, new school
Bait is EVERYTHING for me, it's what they eat
I think you hit the nail on the head there Joss, for a lot of “carp” anglers it's the tent and reels that REALLY matter, new school
Is it time to admit that the HNV theory, although valid in ‘theory' was perpetuated by people with a heavy vested interested for years and years until it became gospel?
If it's the milks and animal products rocketing that is makes bait making untenable could a smart bait maker not develop a successful, low cost bait without them?
Should we even be using animal products in volume anymore from a moral point of view?
Take a look at the SHB thread. The most successful guy on there by a country mile uses a clever hook bait and almost exclusively combines with loose feed that costs less than £1.50 a kilo.
If it's the milks and animal products rocketing that is makes bait making untenable could a smart bait maker not develop a successful, low cost bait without them?
Should we even be using animal products in volume anymore from a moral point of view?
Take a look at the SHB thread. The most successful guy on there by a country mile uses a clever hook bait and almost exclusively combines with loose feed that costs less than £1.50 a kilo.
In reply to Post #156
Caught on all the modern shelf-life baits I've used, not bothered to compare against the freezer bait as if I've been trickling in a bit and am fishing well I catch.
Caught on all the modern shelf-life baits I've used, not bothered to compare against the freezer bait as if I've been trickling in a bit and am fishing well I catch.
In reply to Post #161
It doesn't have to be expensive, that's down to choice.
It doesn't have to be expensive, that's down to choice.
In reply to Post #164
what a brill thing to bring up
animal products...now...i have to be careful how i respond to this one, as they "veggie, vegan" movement is gathering pace, yet they tend to forget rather alot of fundamental aspects, of which they are very clever on how they respond.
YES, we should use by products, they hold a massive nutritional benefit and therefore reducing waste. I wont state figures on carbon footprint of an avocado as opposed to locally sourced meat.
its hip to be "different" and everyone appears to have a label these days
what a brill thing to bring up
animal products...now...i have to be careful how i respond to this one, as they "veggie, vegan" movement is gathering pace, yet they tend to forget rather alot of fundamental aspects, of which they are very clever on how they respond.
YES, we should use by products, they hold a massive nutritional benefit and therefore reducing waste. I wont state figures on carbon footprint of an avocado as opposed to locally sourced meat.
its hip to be "different" and everyone appears to have a label these days
In reply to Post #162
I think most people look for deals whether it's bait or tackle, silly not to, I've not heard many on the bank moaning about bait cost, many are using a fair bit as well.
Bit of a difference talking about bivvies & tickets compared to boilies.
If there really is not much money in making bait then why bother with it all?
I think most people look for deals whether it's bait or tackle, silly not to, I've not heard many on the bank moaning about bait cost, many are using a fair bit as well.
Bit of a difference talking about bivvies & tickets compared to boilies.
If there really is not much money in making bait then why bother with it all?
In reply to Post #164
I still stand by the hnv theory and always will. The best 3 baits I have ever seen or made are all on the same theme. High protein, contain salts and vitamins and heavy in certain known fish attracting ingredients. Nothing else comes close.
I can catch carp on plastic corn or a pop up
But I can't have an edge over the 20 anglers I'm up against with the same tactic.
I still stand by the hnv theory and always will. The best 3 baits I have ever seen or made are all on the same theme. High protein, contain salts and vitamins and heavy in certain known fish attracting ingredients. Nothing else comes close.
I can catch carp on plastic corn or a pop up
But I can't have an edge over the 20 anglers I'm up against with the same tactic.
In reply to Post #168
ones fancy £800 + bivvy doesnt lure a fish, yet a pot of hook baits at £15 odd does, there's the difference to me
support those who produce baits, sleeping under the stars will catch more in my book
ones fancy £800 + bivvy doesnt lure a fish, yet a pot of hook baits at £15 odd does, there's the difference to me
support those who produce baits, sleeping under the stars will catch more in my book
In reply to Post #170
Pretty sure most are aware their bivvy is not going to lure them carp but it lasts them (hopefully) years, bait can be got through very quickly and because most don't have loads of space they are seeing the regularity of it's use and replenishment.
I support those who produce bait and sleeping under the stars counts for nowt if they are not fishing well...
Pretty sure most are aware their bivvy is not going to lure them carp but it lasts them (hopefully) years, bait can be got through very quickly and because most don't have loads of space they are seeing the regularity of it's use and replenishment.
I support those who produce bait and sleeping under the stars counts for nowt if they are not fishing well...
In reply to Post #171
shallow minded on the whole to me mate
shallow minded on the whole to me mate
In reply to Post #172
What or who is shallow minded?
What or who is shallow minded?
In reply to Post #173
not who mate, more what
a lay out of £800 for bivvy etc thats not needed or spend £800 on decent bait....no brainer in my eyes
not who mate, more what
a lay out of £800 for bivvy etc thats not needed or spend £800 on decent bait....no brainer in my eyes
In reply to Post #174
Couldn't agree more but this comes down to good anglers and not so good anglers.
Lets be honest some good anglers spend a lot on their kit, tickets, bait etc it's makes no odds to them, on the other hand....
Couldn't agree more but this comes down to good anglers and not so good anglers.
Lets be honest some good anglers spend a lot on their kit, tickets, bait etc it's makes no odds to them, on the other hand....
In reply to Post #175
I've just paid seven hundred on a bivvy but it's replaced a twenty five year old heavily used one, same with nearly all my kit, have passed most on to my son and being near retirement hope the new stuff will last. Bait is seasonal though, if you budget and spread the cost over the year, put the same amount of money by each month it builds up through winter and don't use boilies all year round. Fish the right bait at the right time of year.
I've just paid seven hundred on a bivvy but it's replaced a twenty five year old heavily used one, same with nearly all my kit, have passed most on to my son and being near retirement hope the new stuff will last. Bait is seasonal though, if you budget and spread the cost over the year, put the same amount of money by each month it builds up through winter and don't use boilies all year round. Fish the right bait at the right time of year.
In reply to Post #162
yet when regards to bait, they all want it for feck all... I'm not going to pay more than X per kilo...
Joss that is so true isn't it.
But a freezer full of freshly made, quality, proven catching bait isn't as Carpy on your insta/faceache page As the latest bivvy, rods or SS3000s.
But it was ‘that bait' that got the bite behind the VASS wader shot.
yet when regards to bait, they all want it for feck all... I'm not going to pay more than X per kilo...
Joss that is so true isn't it.
But a freezer full of freshly made, quality, proven catching bait isn't as Carpy on your insta/faceache page
As the latest bivvy, rods or SS3000s.But it was ‘that bait' that got the bite behind the VASS wader shot.
In reply to Post #169
agreed on the whole when campaign fishing a regular meal should be just that, an actual meal. makes a huge difference.
agreed on the whole when campaign fishing a regular meal should be just that, an actual meal. makes a huge difference.
In reply to Post #164
Ah don't worry mate several purveyors of cheap ***** filled with bred and cereal already, they charge the same mostly ones just annouced their costs going up as well
Ah don't worry mate several purveyors of cheap ***** filled with bred and cereal already, they charge the same mostly
ones just annouced their costs going up as well
In reply to Post #167
I'm certainly not a vegetarian Joss, but like you I aim to source whatever meat or fish I do eat from a traceable source on this island. I won't be buying green beans from Kenya, Peruvian asparagus or Vietnamese prawns when you can just wait until the right time of year and get a better version from our own producers.
We could take another example as the products of BP Milling.
They produce a pellet to feed fish with 36% protein from UK grown vegetable products. By all accounts the carp love them and grow on in a healthy way. The cereal is also better for the water quality than boiled balls of egg, animal protein, animal fat and in many cases chemical preservatives. Mills and presses himself, he doesn't need to worry about the cost of milks or animal by products killing his margins.
£30 for a 25KG sack of 12mm pellets, £1.20 a KG.
Smart guy.
These products are starting to seem far more sensible and viable to feed fish and put en mass in a lake than a fishmeal boilie.
I'm certainly not a vegetarian Joss, but like you I aim to source whatever meat or fish I do eat from a traceable source on this island. I won't be buying green beans from Kenya, Peruvian asparagus or Vietnamese prawns when you can just wait until the right time of year and get a better version from our own producers.
We could take another example as the products of BP Milling.
They produce a pellet to feed fish with 36% protein from UK grown vegetable products. By all accounts the carp love them and grow on in a healthy way. The cereal is also better for the water quality than boiled balls of egg, animal protein, animal fat and in many cases chemical preservatives. Mills and presses himself, he doesn't need to worry about the cost of milks or animal by products killing his margins.
£30 for a 25KG sack of 12mm pellets, £1.20 a KG.
Smart guy.
These products are starting to seem far more sensible and viable to feed fish and put en mass in a lake than a fishmeal boilie.
In reply to Post #180
Many fishmeall boilies don't actually contain that much fishmeal, so you could be right.
Many fishmeall boilies don't actually contain that much fishmeal, so you could be right.
Time to break out the soya/semo baits loaded with sweetner and flavour !😉
In reply to Post #179
Bread is getting expensive, just paid £3.59 for a tiny seeded farmhouse loaf, twelve slices including crust but it is gluten free. Doubt many use this in their bait though.
Bread is getting expensive, just paid £3.59 for a tiny seeded farmhouse loaf, twelve slices including crust but it is gluten free. Doubt many use this in their bait though.
In reply to Post #179
ABS have just announced a price increase , is this one of the firms your insinuating ?
ABS have just announced a price increase , is this one of the firms your insinuating ?
In reply to Post #183
3.59 for a loaf , crumbs
3.59 for a loaf , crumbs
In reply to Post #185
That's a lot of dough
That's a lot of dough
In reply to Post #186
Everyone is after a slice of the action!
Everyone is after a slice of the action!
In reply to Post #187
No knead for all these puns lads.
No knead for all these puns lads.
In reply to Post #188
I'm thinking of using my loaf
I'm thinking of using my loaf
In reply to Post #189
We're not going to rise to it...
We're not going to rise to it...
Even the crusties are on it.
This is a lot of pun. I toast you all.
In reply to Post #192
It'll be nice and toastie in the bivvy
It'll be nice and toastie in the bivvy
You should always go against the grain and it would have been cheaper to buy some flours....
Managed three sarnies out of it, fillet steak, smoked back bacon but my favourite venison and mushroom sausages.
WARNING animals were killed in the making of said sandwiches.
WARNING animals were killed in the making of said sandwiches.
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