Please can you chaps offer any advice.
I'm just about to place this years big bait order with CC Moore.
I want to try their Odyssey XXX this year with Green Lipped Mussel, Garlic and Liver power extracts as coatings on the bait.
Question.
In your experience, does it matter whether you use GLM extract defatted as opposed to GLM full fated?
The price of the defatted is less than half the cost of the fatted extract, so I'm wondering is the fatted version better as an attractant?
Appreciate any advice.
TIA
I'm just about to place this years big bait order with CC Moore.
I want to try their Odyssey XXX this year with Green Lipped Mussel, Garlic and Liver power extracts as coatings on the bait.
Question.
In your experience, does it matter whether you use GLM extract defatted as opposed to GLM full fated?
The price of the defatted is less than half the cost of the fatted extract, so I'm wondering is the fatted version better as an attractant?
Appreciate any advice.
TIA
The defatted stuff is a waste product. Get the full fat.
In reply to Post #1
Considering GLM in bulk is 20 quid a kilo, if he's still adding 10% glm ( which is no more effective than 5% ) then it's not the full fat.
I use both but if you want to get one get the defatted, you can add another fat rich powder to your coating mixture should you need to but the base should always have some give in it and less fats in my opinion.
The best thing I've found for a yearly additive is about 60% defatted to 40% full fat
Considering GLM in bulk is 20 quid a kilo, if he's still adding 10% glm ( which is no more effective than 5% ) then it's not the full fat.
I use both but if you want to get one get the defatted, you can add another fat rich powder to your coating mixture should you need to but the base should always have some give in it and less fats in my opinion.
The best thing I've found for a yearly additive is about 60% defatted to 40% full fat
In reply to Post #3
One thing that surprises me, is when a prominent bait manufacturer decides to formulate a new bait recipe, thereby deciding which ingredients to use, for a "specific purpose in optimum dose", decides to overdo it, despite having the necessary white papers for reference
. Some ingredients have that "sweet spot" where they provide maximum attraction at a certain dose, and increasing the dose is a waste of time, especially if said ingredient is quite costly.
In this case, the recommended dose/kilo is 50g GLM/kg, recommended by the doyens, and adding more is a waste of time Is that primarily due to cost, or has this 50g of GLM been thoroughly scientifically analysed, with respect to olfactory/gustatory attraction ? What does that 50g of GLM actually do, to make a simple fishmeal bait much better, than using a cheaper alternative ingredient that provides similar properties to those provided by GLM ?
What other ingredient or mussel powder is comparable to GLM ?
Defatted or full fat Why choose defatted when only using max 50g, when nutritionally, the polyunsaturated omega3 fatty acids( ALA, DHA, EPA and ETA) are all beneficial to the carp ? These essentials are easily available in a chia/flaxseed combo. Would any other marine lipid concentrate be advantageous and cheaper, or does the
total package of that 50g GLM, exponentially enhance the baits palatability ?
One thing that surprises me, is when a prominent bait manufacturer decides to formulate a new bait recipe, thereby deciding which ingredients to use, for a "specific purpose in optimum dose", decides to overdo it, despite having the necessary white papers for reference
. Some ingredients have that "sweet spot" where they provide maximum attraction at a certain dose, and increasing the dose is a waste of time, especially if said ingredient is quite costly.In this case, the recommended dose/kilo is 50g GLM/kg, recommended by the doyens, and adding more is a waste of time
Is that primarily due to cost, or has this 50g of GLM been thoroughly scientifically analysed, with respect to olfactory/gustatory attraction ? What does that 50g of GLM actually do, to make a simple fishmeal bait much better, than using a cheaper alternative ingredient that provides similar properties to those provided by GLM ?What other ingredient or mussel powder is comparable to GLM ?
Defatted or full fat
Why choose defatted when only using max 50g, when nutritionally, the polyunsaturated omega3 fatty acids( ALA, DHA, EPA and ETA) are all beneficial to the carp ? These essentials are easily available in a chia/flaxseed combo. Would any other marine lipid concentrate be advantageous and cheaper, or does the total package of that 50g GLM, exponentially enhance the baits palatability ?
In reply to Post #4
Sorry by base I was referring to the mix of powders he wants to blend to coat hookbaits.
Ccmoore aren't adding it for its nutritive benefit it's marketed as an attractor, in which case, for loads of anglers who've tested it in a basemix the results tend to start tailing off after a peak of around 50g, you can of course add more but for what reason if it fulfills its function?
As you say there are far more cost effective ways of adding nutrients to a basemix, hence that's not the goal with this to be fair?
My preference has always been to use the more appropriate dependant upon the function.
Sorry by base I was referring to the mix of powders he wants to blend to coat hookbaits.
Ccmoore aren't adding it for its nutritive benefit it's marketed as an attractor, in which case, for loads of anglers who've tested it in a basemix the results tend to start tailing off after a peak of around 50g, you can of course add more but for what reason if it fulfills its function?
As you say there are far more cost effective ways of adding nutrients to a basemix, hence that's not the goal with this to be fair?
My preference has always been to use the more appropriate dependant upon the function.
In reply to Post #5
Thanks Mozzi,
And everyone for your input.
Having reflected, I'm going to bump the CC Moore order off and instead go with DNA Baits 30kg Bulk Order for £200 (50/50 S7 and SLK) plus further matching liquid, stick mix and pellet.
I have done really well on the CCM stuff but the S7 and the SLK seems to have some really good reviews and I can't argue with the value for money side of it either.
I did look at Baitworks Atlantic Heat as another option but at £7.80/kg and the view that both baits were on a par with each other the DNA option sounds the better choice as you are getting more of it for the same money.
If it goes well this year, I might be moving to DNA stable permanently.
Thanks for your PM
Thanks Mozzi,
And everyone for your input.
Having reflected, I'm going to bump the CC Moore order off and instead go with DNA Baits 30kg Bulk Order for £200 (50/50 S7 and SLK) plus further matching liquid, stick mix and pellet.
I have done really well on the CCM stuff but the S7 and the SLK seems to have some really good reviews and I can't argue with the value for money side of it either.
I did look at Baitworks Atlantic Heat as another option but at £7.80/kg and the view that both baits were on a par with each other the DNA option sounds the better choice as you are getting more of it for the same money.
If it goes well this year, I might be moving to DNA stable permanently.
Thanks for your PM
In reply to Post #6
( Watch someone take inssue with my next statement ).
Out of the two, I would invariable go for DNA every single time. SLK is a lovely bait and more than a match for most of the plain coloured fishmeal types around.
BAF their sister company also do some good liquids, such as the keramine based special K. I personally use their fenugreek oleoresin in our maple-smelling concoction and its good uncut stuff. you can also get CPSP90 from them which is brilliant to include in hookbait powders.
( Watch someone take inssue with my next statement ).
Out of the two, I would invariable go for DNA every single time. SLK is a lovely bait and more than a match for most of the plain coloured fishmeal types around.
BAF their sister company also do some good liquids, such as the keramine based special K. I personally use their fenugreek oleoresin in our maple-smelling concoction and its good uncut stuff. you can also get CPSP90 from them which is brilliant to include in hookbait powders.
I've bought some cc Moore Glm liquid and sticky baits Glm powder to coat a load of hookbaits and put a nice crust on them. Are these two I've bought any good? Probably should of asked first 
In reply to Post #8
theres no GLM liquids on the market genuinely extracted from glm, some exist with chunks of mussel in them, others mixed with a bit of oil and the powder, for a liquid, you'd be better off with a hydrolysate such as calanus or shrimp. the powder is fine
theres no GLM liquids on the market genuinely extracted from glm, some exist with chunks of mussel in them, others mixed with a bit of oil and the powder, for a liquid, you'd be better off with a hydrolysate such as calanus or shrimp. the powder is fine
In reply to Post #6
Can't go wrong with the SLK tbf
Can't go wrong with the SLK tbf
In reply to Post #9
Mozzi says : theres no GLM liquids on the market genuinely extracted from glm
On the contrary Nick there is Green Lipped Mussel oil which is extracted from the mussels and put into capsules for human consumption ,I wonder why ?
Hint : If we go to the trouble of extracting it to take it in capsule form for ourselves, maybe the best bit has been removed from the de-fatted GLM.
After all years ago and I mean a long time ago a Guy called Alan Carter told me he had opened GLM capsules and put the powder out of them into his bait where it had had a profound effect ,he said he told Nutrabaits about it. Next he knew they were selling it , that wont have been oil extracted.
Mozzi says : theres no GLM liquids on the market genuinely extracted from glm
On the contrary Nick there is Green Lipped Mussel oil which is extracted from the mussels and put into capsules for human consumption ,I wonder why ?
Hint : If we go to the trouble of extracting it to take it in capsule form for ourselves, maybe the best bit has been removed from the de-fatted GLM.
After all years ago and I mean a long time ago a Guy called Alan Carter told me he had opened GLM capsules and put the powder out of them into his bait where it had had a profound effect ,he said he told Nutrabaits about it. Next he knew they were selling it , that wont have been oil extracted.
In reply to Post #11
I know it may not be on the market anymore, but Rob Maylin used to use a GLM liquid product back in the day.....
I know it may not be on the market anymore, but Rob Maylin used to use a GLM liquid product back in the day.....
In reply to Post #11
I should rephrase, no bait company is selling a GLM liquid genuinely extracted from GLM. the oil extract is too cost prohibitive to put out as a fishing based product and largely unnecessary if you get the pure powder.
its not just oil that gets removed, I personally blend defatted and full fat but I know a lot of ver very successful anglers that prefer defatted for one reason ro another. its horses for courses isn't it ?
I should rephrase, no bait company is selling a GLM liquid genuinely extracted from GLM. the oil extract is too cost prohibitive to put out as a fishing based product and largely unnecessary if you get the pure powder.
its not just oil that gets removed, I personally blend defatted and full fat but I know a lot of ver very successful anglers that prefer defatted for one reason ro another. its horses for courses isn't it ?
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC8434563/
Interesting that they mention using mussel waste. How much wastage can there be from a mussel? There is the meat, the shell and the tendon type thing holding the two together?
Maybe the duds that don't open for human consumption?
Interesting that they mention using mussel waste. How much wastage can there be from a mussel? There is the meat, the shell and the tendon type thing holding the two together?
Maybe the duds that don't open for human consumption?
In reply to Post #13
Rephrase or backtrack?
Rephrase or backtrack?
In reply to Post #15
oh wind it in Scoot we don't need another thread ruined. he mentioned glm oil, which is only used in carping when inherently present in the full fat meal. it is too cost prohibitive to do otherwise. so no, there is no actual liquified extract of glm on the market currently. possibly a home
made version if someone hydrolyses the actual mussel meat but that too would be cost prohibitive Id imagine
oh wind it in Scoot we don't need another thread ruined. he mentioned glm oil, which is only used in carping when inherently present in the full fat meal. it is too cost prohibitive to do otherwise. so no, there is no actual liquified extract of glm on the market currently. possibly a home
made version if someone hydrolyses the actual mussel meat but that too would be cost prohibitive Id imagine
In reply to Post #14
sorry, I didnt read this before replying above, mussell waste will be broken ones, ones of the wrong size or too much rope on them / barnacles etc.
yeah human beings have cosmetic criteria for molluscs now
sorry, I didnt read this before replying above, mussell waste will be broken ones, ones of the wrong size or too much rope on them / barnacles etc.
yeah human beings have cosmetic criteria for molluscs now
In reply to Post #17
Any reason why mussel protein hydrolysate is not a thing when mussels are plentiful when farmed, sustainable and relatively cheap vs say squid from Argentina, krill etc?
I guess you have to get them out the shell for starters
Any reason why mussel protein hydrolysate is not a thing when mussels are plentiful when farmed, sustainable and relatively cheap vs say squid from Argentina, krill etc?
I guess you have to get them out the shell for starters
In reply to Post #18
Guessing it would be a lot more labour intensive, takes me three quarters of an hour to eat enough from the shells for a reasonable snack.
Guessing it would be a lot more labour intensive, takes me three quarters of an hour to eat enough from the shells for a reasonable snack.
In reply to Post #19
They are lovely though.
They are lovely though.
In reply to Post #18
not necessarily. you could use a material crusher to smash the shell on mussels into a sort of agregate material then use that as base material.
Ive played abotu with crayfish hydro, after freezing them to humanely dispatch I put them through a meat mincer with just the spindle in the centre, crackes everything open, just need to sieve it afterwards and it doesnt keep as well .
not necessarily. you could use a material crusher to smash the shell on mussels into a sort of agregate material then use that as base material.
Ive played abotu with crayfish hydro, after freezing them to humanely dispatch I put them through a meat mincer with just the spindle in the centre, crackes everything open, just need to sieve it afterwards and it doesnt keep as well .
In reply to Post #21
Probably best not to post that on an open forum as a business in case DEFRA read it!
Probably best not to post that on an open forum as a business in case DEFRA read it!
In reply to Post #22
Never went anywhere near a U.K. water source? Was just seeing if it could be done. Didn't last more than 2 months in the fridge.
Although I'd bet that freezing and enzymatic hydrolysis laid waste to any potential eggs 😂
Never went anywhere near a U.K. water source? Was just seeing if it could be done. Didn't last more than 2 months in the fridge.
Although I'd bet that freezing and enzymatic hydrolysis laid waste to any potential eggs 😂
In reply to Post #21
the amount of crays you need for bait is ridiculous, bulk it with fishmeal and call it crayfish
the amount of crays you need for bait is ridiculous, bulk it with fishmeal and call it crayfish
In reply to Post #24
Strained off I reckon you could replace 25% of egg with that hydro, I reckon it'd do the do especially in waters where they are abundant.
Could be a nice little ecological set up lol
Strained off I reckon you could replace 25% of egg with that hydro, I reckon it'd do the do especially in waters where they are abundant.
Could be a nice little ecological set up lol
In reply to Post #25
i doubt you'd get 25% out of them, especially considering the H2o content of flesh
i doubt you'd get 25% out of them, especially considering the H2o content of flesh
Around 5 years ago I got loads of signal Crays given, mate was netting the owners lake, he had a license, had the freezer full, found them rubbish myself in all forms 
In reply to Post #23
Might be hard to explain that to DEFRA that a bait co is going through the cost and aggro of hydrolysing crays, but then not taking it anywhere near water. The law actually says “.....the use of crayfish as bait in any form is illegal, as even dead and liquidised signals can continue to carry crayfish plague.” No mention of processing it to a “safe” state. Especially when you say it would “do the do”
Just saying 🤷🏻♀️
Might be hard to explain that to DEFRA that a bait co is going through the cost and aggro of hydrolysing crays, but then not taking it anywhere near water. The law actually says “.....the use of crayfish as bait in any form is illegal, as even dead and liquidised signals can continue to carry crayfish plague.” No mention of processing it to a “safe” state. Especially when you say it would “do the do”
Just saying 🤷🏻♀️
In reply to Post #26
What? 😂 I'm saying of the finished hydro, you could use up to about 75-125ml per kilo replacing a lot of the egg.
Once your hydrolysis is done you can reduce the moisture content of your hydro
What? 😂 I'm saying of the finished hydro, you could use up to about 75-125ml per kilo replacing a lot of the egg.
Once your hydrolysis is done you can reduce the moisture content of your hydro
In reply to Post #28
Nothing to do with my company. And nothing to do with defra I got them from a friend who has a company selling love ones to tge food trade, whether those are farmed or from rivers I'm not sure, I'm just saying I think crayfish hydrolysate would be an ideal use for them.
Remember hydros aren't just used in fishing, they are used in animal feeds, fish feeds, fertiliser etc.
Not sure what your angle is but I can't be bothered to bite
Nothing to do with my company. And nothing to do with defra I got them from a friend who has a company selling love ones to tge food trade, whether those are farmed or from rivers I'm not sure, I'm just saying I think crayfish hydrolysate would be an ideal use for them.
Remember hydros aren't just used in fishing, they are used in animal feeds, fish feeds, fertiliser etc.
Not sure what your angle is but I can't be bothered to bite
In reply to Post #30
No angle Nick - just saying that crayfish of any sort isn't allowed back into watercourses. Trying to do you a favour! And it would have everything to do with DEFRA if its found that someone with a licence to supply has supplied them to someone who did use it “illegally”
No angle Nick - just saying that crayfish of any sort isn't allowed back into watercourses. Trying to do you a favour! And it would have everything to do with DEFRA if its found that someone with a licence to supply has supplied them to someone who did use it “illegally”
In reply to Post #29
see what you mean, but you'd be lucky to get 5% crayfish hydro (new hip car word an all
)
see what you mean, but you'd be lucky to get 5% crayfish hydro (new hip car word an all
)
In reply to Post #31
Didn't Nashbait have to get a licence to use Crayfish meal in a boilie range they made?
Then when it couldn't be renewed they had to stop making them.
Didn't Nashbait have to get a licence to use Crayfish meal in a boilie range they made?
Then when it couldn't be renewed they had to stop making them.
In reply to Post #31
I'm sure you can use it as long as it's been processed and cooked to kill off bacteria. Be worth having a full read as if you couldn't use any form of crayfish in any way that's intended to enter a watercourse then using crayfish meal would be illegal. Also technically waste water from cooking it in restaurants, etc would be illegal to go down the drain too.
Realistically the issue isn't the plague anymore as very few white claws still exist, it's the stupidly high fecundity and the long list of issues that come with that.
I'm sure you can use it as long as it's been processed and cooked to kill off bacteria. Be worth having a full read as if you couldn't use any form of crayfish in any way that's intended to enter a watercourse then using crayfish meal would be illegal. Also technically waste water from cooking it in restaurants, etc would be illegal to go down the drain too.
Realistically the issue isn't the plague anymore as very few white claws still exist, it's the stupidly high fecundity and the long list of issues that come with that.
In reply to Post #11
Orions do what they claim is a GLM Hydro (mixed with water) no idea if it's any good or even if it is what its claimed to be.
Orions do what they claim is a GLM Hydro (mixed with water) no idea if it's any good or even if it is what its claimed to be.
In reply to Post #32
Do you mean included in a finished boilie? Or do you mean final yield after hydrolysis of base material?
Do you mean included in a finished boilie? Or do you mean final yield after hydrolysis of base material?
In reply to Post #33
Wasn't to do with the license as far as I'm aware but tge sales not keeping up? The key turned into the key cray but then they re-released a version of Scopex Squid that's identical to the original and that bait sells itself to be fair. It makes sense you now look at it they have a full bait, a bright bait, both under their premium banner, then some shelf life visual baits too. It's not any sort of concept ted line up and they have larger ranges of accessories.
Fairly sure skmentsckle shops still have key Cray in the freezers? Saw some mainline NRG the other day 😂
I have no idea if it's still sold in Europe but I know you can email max at nash direct if you wanted anymore info
Wasn't to do with the license as far as I'm aware but tge sales not keeping up? The key turned into the key cray but then they re-released a version of Scopex Squid that's identical to the original and that bait sells itself to be fair. It makes sense you now look at it they have a full bait, a bright bait, both under their premium banner, then some shelf life visual baits too. It's not any sort of concept ted line up and they have larger ranges of accessories.
Fairly sure skmentsckle shops still have key Cray in the freezers? Saw some mainline NRG the other day 😂
I have no idea if it's still sold in Europe but I know you can email max at nash direct if you wanted anymore info
In reply to Post #37
Mad that it's identical considering a few of the original ingredients aren't available anymore. Unless they're producing them in house of course. That was GB who said that was the reason they stopped making it in the first place.
Still does well in the new version though. Unlike they key and key cray which were short lived ventures.
Mad that it's identical considering a few of the original ingredients aren't available anymore. Unless they're producing them in house of course. That was GB who said that was the reason they stopped making it in the first place.
Still does well in the new version though. Unlike they key and key cray which were short lived ventures.
In reply to Post #38
identical lol no one is saying it doesnt catch fish but identical
identical lol
no one is saying it doesnt catch fish but identical
In reply to Post #38
Jay Rider had a hand in the Key, and said it was just too difficult to keep the key “retailable” as the logistics of moving a bait that had to stay frozen around just didn't work.
Jay Rider had a hand in the Key, and said it was just too difficult to keep the key “retailable” as the logistics of moving a bait that had to stay frozen around just didn't work.
In reply to Post #36
final yield, im guessing not stating
final yield, im guessing not stating
In reply to Post #38
Do you know what ingredients are different from the original mix?
Do you know what ingredients are different from the original mix?
In reply to Post #42
No. That wasn't disclosed. Just that they stopped making it due to ingredients not being available any more. I'm sure it's in an interview in a mag or YouTube somewhere. I met GB at an IFM conference before they re-released it and he said the same to a group of us chatting about bait.
No. That wasn't disclosed. Just that they stopped making it due to ingredients not being available any more. I'm sure it's in an interview in a mag or YouTube somewhere. I met GB at an IFM conference before they re-released it and he said the same to a group of us chatting about bait.
In reply to Post #42
In reply to Post #33
I think your right on that, it was around a bylaw where you cant use crayfish as a bait due to protection status of certain species of them or something like that..
From memory they had to get approval to use as a bait ingredient and also not to sell on the crayfish meal individually.
Guessing it was most likely based around FEMAS requirements
I think your right on that, it was around a bylaw where you cant use crayfish as a bait due to protection status of certain species of them or something like that..
From memory they had to get approval to use as a bait ingredient and also not to sell on the crayfish meal individually.
Guessing it was most likely based around FEMAS requirements
In reply to Post #38
just going by what they claim. Ive not been in the nash factory?
just going by what they claim. Ive not been in the nash factory?
In reply to Post #41
ah right ok, I was saying taking the finished product and adding it to eggs at around 25% ( its my starting percentage when testing hydros and go up and down ) but yeah I understand what you mean, shell content and water content of its flesh will have a low yield. theoretically plenty of crayfish about to mitigate that though!
ah right ok, I was saying taking the finished product and adding it to eggs at around 25% ( its my starting percentage when testing hydros and go up and down ) but yeah I understand what you mean, shell content and water content of its flesh will have a low yield. theoretically plenty of crayfish about to mitigate that though!
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