In reply to Post #1
I could probably hazard a guess to a few things , but I'm outa my depth , over 2 u Ken, by the way I love demerara sugar on my nuts
I could probably hazard a guess to a few things , but I'm outa my depth , over 2 u Ken, by the way I love demerara sugar on my nuts
In reply to Post #1
Have you listened to the podcasts with Dean Towey, I'm sure he mentioned the importance of carbohydrates, he might have mentioned the origins of the science as well.
Have you listened to the podcasts with Dean Towey, I'm sure he mentioned the importance of carbohydrates, he might have mentioned the origins of the science as well.
In reply to Post #4
Cant give you an answer, but I always did well on Hutchy's Sucrebland and the Hit and Run mix, which contained a lot of sugars, when wanting an “instant” bait.
With a lot of Hesse things, you can get into the chemistry of these things, but if the carp like it, use it!
Cant give you an answer, but I always did well on Hutchy's Sucrebland and the Hit and Run mix, which contained a lot of sugars, when wanting an “instant” bait.
With a lot of Hesse things, you can get into the chemistry of these things, but if the carp like it, use it!
In reply to Post #5
Sucreblend omg I loved that ,
Sucreblend omg I loved that ,
In reply to Post #6
Glucose
Glucose
In reply to Post #7
Ok thanks that adds up
Ok thanks that adds up
In reply to Post #7
Fructose as well. Proven attractor ...
Fructose as well. Proven attractor ...
In reply to Post #7
The theory is there but not the attraction in my experiences
The theory is there but not the attraction in my experiences
Sugars and carbs imo can be a tricky one imo. I've never been convinced that refined mono saccharides are attractive but when sugars are in raw state or partially refined then the volatiles within them are where the attraction comes from.. If you consider molasses or honey, both are well known attractors and both are loaded with "volatiles" which imo carp can detect as a possible food source. Dean did mention that in his opinion carp must like carbs due to the copious amounts of amylase secreted, although this is indeed correct its my thinking that this isn't quite as accurate thinking. Carp in a lake will only consume raw starch from weed shoots etc which will require copious amount of amylase to breakdown so to say that they must like carbs based on the amount of present enzyme, although looking sensible may not be true. When cooking starch is is very easily converted to energy via amylase but perhaps this isn't good for the carp long term with the potential for diabetic type illness??. It's become my thoughts now to make a bait to address protein for growth, lipids for energy, a small amount of carb for energy and this is where the problem starts, what else to use as a binder?? I've started to move towards resistant carbs and fibre to aid gut transit and to improve gut flora...
In reply to Post #11
So is that why baits might have 10 ingredients in them , a little bit of everything , in moderation is ok , like me mum said told u I know naff all
So is that why baits might have 10 ingredients in them , a little bit of everything , in moderation is ok , like me mum said
told u I know naff all
In reply to Post #12
Personally I don't see the point for umpteen ingredients in a bait, just gives room for massive error... Been there and effed it right up
. I like to add some ground, uncooked seed to my mix to aid gut transit and good old ground tiger does a great job in adding taste and due to its resistant starch is pretty much shat out as it was, couple that with a decent protein source and lipid and just enough semo to hold it together plus the obligatory liquid package of choice and vit and mins then its all good in my world.
Personally I don't see the point for umpteen ingredients in a bait, just gives room for massive error... Been there and effed it right up
. I like to add some ground, uncooked seed to my mix to aid gut transit and good old ground tiger does a great job in adding taste and due to its resistant starch is pretty much shat out as it was, couple that with a decent protein source and lipid and just enough semo to hold it together plus the obligatory liquid package of choice and vit and mins then its all good in my world.
In reply to Post #1
Personally I rarely use a sweetener these days, but carbs/sugars/starches are most definitely worth including in a well-rounded bait, and should be!
Plenty of studies suggesting around 35% total carbohydrate is optimal for carp, but in my opinion this is going to greatly depend upon the water temp and other dietary items that the carp are or aren't eating.
Personally I rarely use a sweetener these days, but carbs/sugars/starches are most definitely worth including in a well-rounded bait, and should be!
Plenty of studies suggesting around 35% total carbohydrate is optimal for carp, but in my opinion this is going to greatly depend upon the water temp and other dietary items that the carp are or aren't eating.
In reply to Post #14
Plenty of studies suggesting around 35% total carbohydrate is optimal for carp, but in my opinion this is going to greatly depend upon the water temp and other dietary items that the carp are or aren't eating.
And not forgetting how nice and machine rolling friendly, Carbs can make a bait
Plenty of studies suggesting around 35% total carbohydrate is optimal for carp, but in my opinion this is going to greatly depend upon the water temp and other dietary items that the carp are or aren't eating.
And not forgetting how nice and machine rolling friendly, Carbs can make a bait
In reply to Post #1
Quote... John Baker said on a recent podcast that it was only added to reduce the bitter taste of some flavor / labels
Try not to comment on stuff like this.... But that ^^^ is the biggest load of claptrap I've seen in a while. An astoundingly clueless comment in reality if that is what he claimed.
Quote... John Baker said on a recent podcast that it was only added to reduce the bitter taste of some flavor / labels
Try not to comment on stuff like this.... But that ^^^ is the biggest load of claptrap I've seen in a while. An astoundingly clueless comment in reality if that is what he claimed.
Wasn't JB talking about sweeteners rather than sugars though? Very different things.
In reply to Post #17
I read it as sweeteners. The sweeteners are far better attractors than the flavours themselves.
But then if you sell flavours, I guess you are not going to say that, even if you know it. I probably should not have commented. But that statement is simply not true.
I read it as sweeteners. The sweeteners are far better attractors than the flavours themselves.
But then if you sell flavours, I guess you are not going to say that, even if you know it. I probably should not have commented. But that statement is simply not true.
In reply to Post #1
In that podcast John Baker clearly said that sweeteners were not necessary/needed in baits.
Examples he quoted as being “ sweeteners” were talin, saccharine, fructose, dextrose and maltose, both synthetic sweeteners and sugars quoted here.
The only”sweet” additive he recommended was honey at a low level of 1/3rd of a teaspoon per 6 eggs .
The suggestion was that the attractive ability of honey was the content and complexity of the various aroma chemicals it contained .
He also made the point that if “ sweeteners” were effective attractors then they would be included in commercial fish feed pellets, and they are not.
In that podcast John Baker clearly said that sweeteners were not necessary/needed in baits.
Examples he quoted as being “ sweeteners” were talin, saccharine, fructose, dextrose and maltose, both synthetic sweeteners and sugars quoted here.
The only”sweet” additive he recommended was honey at a low level of 1/3rd of a teaspoon per 6 eggs .
The suggestion was that the attractive ability of honey was the content and complexity of the various aroma chemicals it contained .
He also made the point that if “ sweeteners” were effective attractors then they would be included in commercial fish feed pellets, and they are not.
Has anyone tried a bland 50/50 semo / soya bait. 1 unflavoured, 1 flavoured with a established good flavour alone, and a third with an established well regarded sugar or blend of sugars and sweeteners. Surely this is the only true test.
In reply to Post #19
He also made the point that if “ sweeteners” were effective attractors then they would be included in commercial fish feed pellets, and they are not.
Funny enough Scopex, plum and all the other flavours aren't included in commercial feeds but it does not mean they aren't great attractors...
He also made the point that if “ sweeteners” were effective attractors then they would be included in commercial fish feed pellets, and they are not.
Funny enough Scopex, plum and all the other flavours aren't included in commercial feeds but it does not mean they aren't great attractors...
In reply to Post #19
Could you please point me into the direction of John Bakers blockbuster bait over the years? Nice plum flavour, some decent base mixes. No offence intended, but I could not even name a bait that he has made. I certainly do not know of any time where John Bakers bait, was doing anything to make me, or anyone else sit up and take notice to rush out and buy it. Previously his bait was being sold through Yateley angling, but not anymore. I saw it, looked ok. The results clearly did not make it a blockbuster though did they, otherwise why is it not for sale anymore?
He sells expensive flavours in the main. Very well regarded for flavours, yes.
Betaine alone though, has accounted for more carp, than all of the products he sells put together, multiplied by (insert a suitable very large number).
Anyone who knows anything about carp bait at all, knows this surely? It's a little bit embarrassing, even needing to have to discuss this in my honest opinion.
Betaine does not attract carp? Jeez.
Could you please point me into the direction of John Bakers blockbuster bait over the years? Nice plum flavour, some decent base mixes. No offence intended, but I could not even name a bait that he has made. I certainly do not know of any time where John Bakers bait, was doing anything to make me, or anyone else sit up and take notice to rush out and buy it. Previously his bait was being sold through Yateley angling, but not anymore. I saw it, looked ok. The results clearly did not make it a blockbuster though did they, otherwise why is it not for sale anymore?
He sells expensive flavours in the main. Very well regarded for flavours, yes.
Betaine alone though, has accounted for more carp, than all of the products he sells put together, multiplied by (insert a suitable very large number).
Anyone who knows anything about carp bait at all, knows this surely? It's a little bit embarrassing, even needing to have to discuss this in my honest opinion.
Betaine does not attract carp? Jeez.
In reply to Post #22
Hi, think John has a small niche of users of his products which they seem to do well on , he doesn't roll bait but produces base mixes and attractors for those who prefer to roll their own , his Supermilk milk protein mix has accounted for some huge barbel over the years myself included , prob not a fashionable bait/attractor supplier as say Premier , ABS , sticky etc but that doesnt mean there any the less effective, he is very black and white and prob a bit old school but theres no denying his baits do catch , just being devils advocate really Mark
Hi, think John has a small niche of users of his products which they seem to do well on , he doesn't roll bait but produces base mixes and attractors for those who prefer to roll their own , his Supermilk milk protein mix has accounted for some huge barbel over the years myself included , prob not a fashionable bait/attractor supplier as say Premier , ABS , sticky etc but that doesnt mean there any the less effective, he is very black and white and prob a bit old school but theres no denying his baits do catch , just being devils advocate really Mark
In reply to Post #23
Yes, and I understand why he has that opinion mate, because of great knowledge of Barbel and the fact he is very old school. That opinion he has is from the 80's. Sweeteners are completely useless for Barbel. I fish around Johns area, he is a legend. But that statement about sweeteners and sugars regarding carp, is absolute claptrap.
I will share some knowledge from the late great R D Campbell. It was Bob, or some one like him who actually produce these certain products, that then John Baker will sell, or I might use in producing carp bait. Bob once told me when discussing our S2... "Mark, taste any of the very most successful flavours, they have always had a very sweet back note". The flavours themselves are sweet tasting. Even the ones you would think would never have a sweet back note... Because you are never going to taste shellfish blah blah are you! Bob had his own little baby... 'hydrose' sweetener. Bob loved that gear.... He went to the trouble of trade marking it (it's not the same stuff anymore)... Tonnes of the most successful flavours that you have ALL used over the years had incorporated in to them... What is now being claimed does not attract carp in this thread.
I'd bet if you taste Johns Plum... It will leave a sweet tasting blast on your tongue. That is without ever even tasting it. It's that sweet tasting blast on your tongue in the main that makes it effective as an attractor... And has zero to do with how it smells to your nose.
Yes, and I understand why he has that opinion mate, because of great knowledge of Barbel and the fact he is very old school. That opinion he has is from the 80's. Sweeteners are completely useless for Barbel. I fish around Johns area, he is a legend. But that statement about sweeteners and sugars regarding carp, is absolute claptrap.
I will share some knowledge from the late great R D Campbell. It was Bob, or some one like him who actually produce these certain products, that then John Baker will sell, or I might use in producing carp bait. Bob once told me when discussing our S2... "Mark, taste any of the very most successful flavours, they have always had a very sweet back note". The flavours themselves are sweet tasting. Even the ones you would think would never have a sweet back note... Because you are never going to taste shellfish blah blah are you! Bob had his own little baby... 'hydrose' sweetener. Bob loved that gear.... He went to the trouble of trade marking it (it's not the same stuff anymore)... Tonnes of the most successful flavours that you have ALL used over the years had incorporated in to them... What is now being claimed does not attract carp in this thread.
I'd bet if you taste Johns Plum... It will leave a sweet tasting blast on your tongue. That is without ever even tasting it. It's that sweet tasting blast on your tongue in the main that makes it effective as an attractor... And has zero to do with how it smells to your nose.
In reply to Post #22
No one said Betaine does not attract carp.Betaine is trimethylglycine and it is its structural similarity to the amino acid glycine that generates or enhances the “attractive” response by carp not its “sweetness” as perceived by humans.
Several other amino acids are perceived to be sweet by human taste: but it is not this property that attracts carp, it is the binding of these amino acids to the amino acid receptors that generate the “attraction “ response.
No one said Betaine does not attract carp.Betaine is trimethylglycine and it is its structural similarity to the amino acid glycine that generates or enhances the “attractive” response by carp not its “sweetness” as perceived by humans.
Several other amino acids are perceived to be sweet by human taste: but it is not this property that attracts carp, it is the binding of these amino acids to the amino acid receptors that generate the “attraction “ response.
In reply to Post #25
Quote...No one said Betaine does not attract carp.
Betaine is from sugar beet. It's a sweetener. I replied to this thread because of the claim of sweeteners (and then you added sugars) not attracting carp.
Quote...No one said Betaine does not attract carp.
Betaine is from sugar beet. It's a sweetener. I replied to this thread because of the claim of sweeteners (and then you added sugars) not attracting carp.
In reply to Post #25
Hi James
Can too much sweetener in a bait, act as a repellant ?
Hi James
Can too much sweetener in a bait, act as a repellant ?
In reply to Post #21
The aquaculture feed industry has looked at flavours as used by carp anglers; but could not see any significant advantages in their use as compared to their standard formulations.
The aquaculture feed industry has looked at flavours as used by carp anglers; but could not see any significant advantages in their use as compared to their standard formulations.
In reply to Post #27
Depends on the “sweetener;” but yes there is that possibility, more likely that any receptors involved will be “ overloaded” and the carp will “switch off” .
More is not always best
Depends on the “sweetener;” but yes there is that possibility, more likely that any receptors involved will be “ overloaded” and the carp will “switch off” .
More is not always best
In reply to Post #22
I'm no expert like some others here. However based on my past experience, I will be including raw molasses and trimethylglycine in my attractor mix as usual. I don't know the science but it works for me.
I'm no expert like some others here. However based on my past experience, I will be including raw molasses and trimethylglycine in my attractor mix as usual. I don't know the science but it works for me.
In reply to Post #29
One certain sweetener is patented for use in fish feed.
Some peach flavour or component I believe was or is used in trout feed.
Feed additives for fish is usually all about taste not olfaction which also may explain why such components are rarely used in feed.
One certain sweetener is patented for use in fish feed.
Some peach flavour or component I believe was or is used in trout feed.
Feed additives for fish is usually all about taste not olfaction which also may explain why such components are rarely used in feed.
Has anyone played about with high-grade manuka honey? It's fascinating stuff.
There's more to that than just saccarides, and I think that is why JB is more pro honey as a sweetener compared to others such as thaumatin etc.
Unless I've missed something, I don't think JB has flat out said that sweeteners are ****.
There's more to that than just saccarides, and I think that is why JB is more pro honey as a sweetener compared to others such as thaumatin etc.
Unless I've missed something, I don't think JB has flat out said that sweeteners are ****.
In reply to Post #32
I thought JB said he did not rate sweeteners apart from honey, I have a question sorry
when I made baits years ago I always added a low level essential oil, why not another form of attraction , a lable ,
was I thinking right, a 2 pronged attack, with a flavor and other bits, as I want to start making bait again , thanks .
I thought JB said he did not rate sweeteners apart from honey, I have a question sorry
when I made baits years ago I always added a low level essential oil, why not another form of attraction , a lable ,
was I thinking right, a 2 pronged attack, with a flavor and other bits, as I want to start making bait again , thanks .
In reply to Post #33
Are you referring to the podcast I did with him?
If so I took him to mean that he prefers natural sweeteners such as honey over concentrated ones, but still thinks concentrated ones can be effective.
That being said, my memory isn't the best! Especially once I'm a few beers deep.
Either way, experimentation is the key and the only real way of knowing, see what works for you and the particular mix you're working on.
As far as your question re essential oils goes, I don't know what you're asking exactly! Sorry.
Are you referring to the podcast I did with him?
If so I took him to mean that he prefers natural sweeteners such as honey over concentrated ones, but still thinks concentrated ones can be effective.
That being said, my memory isn't the best! Especially once I'm a few beers deep.
Either way, experimentation is the key and the only real way of knowing, see what works for you and the particular mix you're working on.
As far as your question re essential oils goes, I don't know what you're asking exactly! Sorry.
In reply to Post #29
But do receptors really ‘switch off' when they are gill deep in silt and filling their guts with abandon? This theory always struck me as just that over a real life feeding situation when all sorts of attractive stuff is being kicked up all over the place.
But do receptors really ‘switch off' when they are gill deep in silt and filling their guts with abandon? This theory always struck me as just that over a real life feeding situation when all sorts of attractive stuff is being kicked up all over the place.
In reply to Post #35
The question I was asked referred specifically to high concentrations of “sweeteners “ in bait.
If the “ saturation” point of a given chemoreceptor is exceeded then the receptor generally will “switch off”.
In the carp's natural food environment this is unlikely to happen, where the food source, at a given point in time , is “ man made” and certain chemicals/substances have been overloaded, then yes this can happen.
I have seen this occur in quite a few instances where boilie formulations are being evaluated.
You do not really want to have chemicals/substances at a concentration in bait/boilie formulations that can cause this to happen.
The question I was asked referred specifically to high concentrations of “sweeteners “ in bait.
If the “ saturation” point of a given chemoreceptor is exceeded then the receptor generally will “switch off”.
In the carp's natural food environment this is unlikely to happen, where the food source, at a given point in time , is “ man made” and certain chemicals/substances have been overloaded, then yes this can happen.
I have seen this occur in quite a few instances where boilie formulations are being evaluated.
You do not really want to have chemicals/substances at a concentration in bait/boilie formulations that can cause this to happen.
Icing sugar, anyone? 
In reply to Post #34
What I was trying to say is why wouldn't you add a essential oil in a long term food bait, can only help ?
What I was trying to say is why wouldn't you add a essential oil in a long term food bait, can only help ?
In reply to Post #38
Personally I would 👍
Personally I would 👍
In reply to Post #37
A friend of mine uses icing sugar to conserve his baits.
He coats his baits with the icing sugar and his baits can be consevred for a month or 2
A friend of mine uses icing sugar to conserve his baits.
He coats his baits with the icing sugar and his baits can be consevred for a month or 2
In reply to Post #1
I've been fishing years and years with high fishmeal baits. This bait landed me and my friends lots of fish but since a year or 2 I'm combining this high fishmeal baits with a bait based on sugars and carbs.
I can only conclude since introducing this bait I'm triggering/catching different series of fish.
I caught in 1 year a series of that I didn't caught the last 8years.
For me, one and one is 2. Sugars and carbs are have their place and can land you fish that you wouldn't land on a high fishmeal bait
I've been fishing years and years with high fishmeal baits. This bait landed me and my friends lots of fish but since a year or 2 I'm combining this high fishmeal baits with a bait based on sugars and carbs.
I can only conclude since introducing this bait I'm triggering/catching different series of fish.
I caught in 1 year a series of that I didn't caught the last 8years.
For me, one and one is 2. Sugars and carbs are have their place and can land you fish that you wouldn't land on a high fishmeal bait
In reply to Post #36
I can accept that it is less than ideal to have an overload of sugars, surely it would then follow that a few different attractors in a bait is better than one. If one is saturated then others are still attracting. All things used need to be at a low enough or so not to overload.
I'm talking long term bait used in large amounts. Although I bet it would be possible to overload a single pop up in the height of summer if you tried.
I can accept that it is less than ideal to have an overload of sugars, surely it would then follow that a few different attractors in a bait is better than one. If one is saturated then others are still attracting. All things used need to be at a low enough or so not to overload.
I'm talking long term bait used in large amounts. Although I bet it would be possible to overload a single pop up in the height of summer if you tried.
In reply to Post #42
Betaine, I rate it highly
Msg I rate highly
Additives to improve taste I rate highly
Sugars and salts in baits.......I wouldn't make bait without them.
Flavours.........the bit you need to worry about the least in a well made and nutritional boilie.
Many of the fruit palatants we use in bait have sweetners in the make up and they seem to work very well.
Betaine, I rate it highly
Msg I rate highly
Additives to improve taste I rate highly
Sugars and salts in baits.......I wouldn't make bait without them.
Flavours.........the bit you need to worry about the least in a well made and nutritional boilie.
Many of the fruit palatants we use in bait have sweetners in the make up and they seem to work very well.
In reply to Post #42
Yes a good approach, however bear in mind an overload of a particular chemical can also interfere with the “ attractive ability/efficiency “ of other chemicals within the mix.
Yes a good approach, however bear in mind an overload of a particular chemical can also interfere with the “ attractive ability/efficiency “ of other chemicals within the mix.
In reply to Post #26
Hi,
Betaine Hcl is bitter. Do you rate it despite that ?
Hi,
Betaine Hcl is bitter. Do you rate it despite that ?
In reply to Post #39
Thanks, can you od on natural sweetners
Thanks, can you od on natural sweetners
In reply to Post #32
Quote... Has anyone played about with high-grade manuka honey?
Not 'played' with it as such. It's in our GPB1.
Quote... Has anyone played about with high-grade manuka honey?
Not 'played' with it as such. It's in our GPB1.
In reply to Post #40
That's a completely different process, with the same product mate. It is conserving the baits, by covering the outside of them with sugar, which then turns to a syrup. That stops air getting to his baits... Thus conserving them. Essentially dry curing them with sugar (same process as salt).
Take the same sugar though, and put it inside the bait with the eggs... It will have the opposite effect. Instead of conserving it, it will now promote bacteria forming much quicker, than without the sugar added inside the bait.
Two completely different things.
That's a completely different process, with the same product mate. It is conserving the baits, by covering the outside of them with sugar, which then turns to a syrup. That stops air getting to his baits... Thus conserving them. Essentially dry curing them with sugar (same process as salt).
Take the same sugar though, and put it inside the bait with the eggs... It will have the opposite effect. Instead of conserving it, it will now promote bacteria forming much quicker, than without the sugar added inside the bait.
Two completely different things.
In reply to Post #48
Hence why the Old Frozen Richworth toots used to start going a bit icky after a few days I kept in the plastic bags..
Hence why the Old Frozen Richworth toots used to start going a bit icky after a few days I kept in the plastic bags..
In reply to Post #49
Wasn't that the icing sugar?
Wasn't that the icing sugar?
In reply to Post #50
I believe so Ken..
I believe so Ken..
In reply to Post #50
And in combination with single cell protein I guess it was a feast for bacteria.
And in combination with single cell protein I guess it was a feast for bacteria.
Quote Kells... Hence why the Old Frozen Richworth toots used to start going a bit icky after a few days I kept in the plastic bags
Quote Ken.... Wasn't that the icing sugar?
Quote Viking... And in combination with single cell protein I guess it was a feast for bacteria.
Nail.... On.... The.... Head
Quote Ken.... Wasn't that the icing sugar?
Quote Viking... And in combination with single cell protein I guess it was a feast for bacteria.
Nail.... On.... The.... Head
Regards the Richworth Tuttis then and these revelations to us mere mortals, was this at detriment to the baits or did this improve their attraction to carp? Often seen it said when baits go sticky after a few days on the bank this is the sugars being emitted and an increase in their attractiveness as a result?
In reply to Post #54
Good bait straight from the bag. But them sugars and boozy smell certainly didnt deter them.
Good bait straight from the bag. But them sugars and boozy smell certainly didnt deter them.
In reply to Post #54
Mere mortals?
Richworth frozens were much better when they went sticky. Fermentation around simple sugars.
Grange CSL, which incorporated an activated CSL (activated by sugars). Much better sticky. Fermentation around activated CSL.
Both of these iconic, and very successful freezer baits, contained certain ingredients, that helped/promoted/encouraged fermentation. Both were consequently better, when on the turn and going sticky. There are many, many other examples. But they are two great ones.
Mere mortals?
Richworth frozens were much better when they went sticky. Fermentation around simple sugars.
Grange CSL, which incorporated an activated CSL (activated by sugars). Much better sticky. Fermentation around activated CSL.
Both of these iconic, and very successful freezer baits, contained certain ingredients, that helped/promoted/encouraged fermentation. Both were consequently better, when on the turn and going sticky. There are many, many other examples. But they are two great ones.
In reply to Post #56
I have used the tuttis in the past and found that by more accident than experiment, after leaving them in the house after a session in my rucksack, they used to secrete all the sticky goodness, been done to death on here, think it was claimed that Pruteen that was the protein source, didn't know it was icing sugar though?
And the grange, think it was Serenity who opened the door on that one so to speak, CSL and the Phytase enzyme that was the “Activator” I believe? ahead of the game at the time when they released that I think
All interesting stuff though must admit
I have used the tuttis in the past and found that by more accident than experiment, after leaving them in the house after a session in my rucksack, they used to secrete all the sticky goodness, been done to death on here, think it was claimed that Pruteen that was the protein source, didn't know it was icing sugar though?
And the grange, think it was Serenity who opened the door on that one so to speak, CSL and the Phytase enzyme that was the “Activator” I believe? ahead of the game at the time when they released that I think
All interesting stuff though must admit
In reply to Post #57
Pretty sure one reason for the icing sugar is that Pruteen was very bitter, so anglers wouldn't but a nice fruity bait if it didn't taste nice. They had to sweeten it for the pig feed as well.
And as a plus it had the nice side effect on feeding the fermentation as well......
Pretty sure one reason for the icing sugar is that Pruteen was very bitter, so anglers wouldn't but a nice fruity bait if it didn't taste nice. They had to sweeten it for the pig feed as well.
And as a plus it had the nice side effect on feeding the fermentation as well......
In reply to Post #58
Who said that bitter was bad...?
Or that sweet was good, for that matter...
Just saying!
Who said that bitter was bad...?
Or that sweet was good, for that matter...
Just saying!
In reply to Post #59
Carp did!
(Just playing devils advocate)
Carp did!
(Just playing devils advocate)
In reply to Post #57
Phytase is an enzyme that "free " up the phytic acid contained in the CSL to make phosphorus more available .
Alan think it was the part 2 liquid ( the little dropper) .
When i think about it, the mainline CSL was maybe "active" in the bottle, but it doesn't made the bait turn more rapidly with it in ! ( i used it a lot in many different mixes)
Phytase is an enzyme that "free " up the phytic acid contained in the CSL to make phosphorus more available .
Alan think it was the part 2 liquid ( the little dropper) .
When i think about it, the mainline CSL was maybe "active" in the bottle, but it doesn't made the bait turn more rapidly with it in ! ( i used it a lot in many different mixes)
In reply to Post #58
Pruteen was very bitter in taste, which ultimately lead to its dimise, as even the pigs 🐖 eating it, didn't trough enough to make the pruteen cost against pig weight gain viable for the farmers and the producers ICI
Pigs, don't like bitter, very fussy eaters apparently !
Unlike carp
Pruteen was very bitter in taste, which ultimately lead to its dimise, as even the pigs 🐖 eating it, didn't trough enough to make the pruteen cost against pig weight gain viable for the farmers and the producers ICI
Pigs, don't like bitter, very fussy eaters apparently !
Unlike carp
In reply to Post #59
Like Scaley said - the pigs!
Maybe I should have said palatable. Is it coincidence that most animal feed palatants are sweet.....??
As an aside, Quorn is an offshoot of the technology from Pruteen manufacturing - if it was cheaper then a Quorn powder would be worth a look......??
Like Scaley said - the pigs!
Maybe I should have said palatable. Is it coincidence that most animal feed palatants are sweet.....??
As an aside, Quorn is an offshoot of the technology from Pruteen manufacturing - if it was cheaper then a Quorn powder would be worth a look......??
In reply to Post #63
Little sparks ⚡️ 💡 and all that
Quorn's Spag bol' is a product with a lot less saturated fat ( 90% less ) in it than the real meat, beef version apparently.
Does it taste as good, or is it poor in comparison ? Not eaten one myself yet.
Appetite stimulants make us think we are eating something it is not.
We Humans know all too well, that fat and sugars taste nice, to us.
Combine this high fat & ‘reactive' energy aspect with a good nutritional bait, got to be a win, win, right?
But does it also register to an carps survival instinct for energy and fats, for repair, breeding and general survival !
My mind is thinking 🤔 it isn't just a fluke, that these type of baits consistently catch
Little sparks ⚡️ 💡 and all that
Quorn's Spag bol' is a product with a lot less saturated fat ( 90% less ) in it than the real meat, beef version apparently.
Does it taste as good, or is it poor in comparison ? Not eaten one myself yet.
Appetite stimulants make us think we are eating something it is not.
We Humans know all too well, that fat and sugars taste nice, to us.
Combine this high fat & ‘reactive' energy aspect with a good nutritional bait, got to be a win, win, right?
But does it also register to an carps survival instinct for energy and fats, for repair, breeding and general survival !
My mind is thinking 🤔 it isn't just a fluke, that these type of baits consistently catch
In reply to Post #58
The fermentation and associated attraction is the key for me
I guess the Grange and Mainlines "activ" baits ferment once under water in anaerobic conditions?
I used glucose in my baits for the obvious reasons, its what they get converted into and I cannot say say this added to the attraction one bit, on paper my thinking is that it may help with the digestion but as an overhaul bait additive i cannot say I was convinced. Free fermenting sugars seem much more attractive, could be wrong
The fermentation and associated attraction is the key for me
I guess the Grange and Mainlines "activ" baits ferment once under water in anaerobic conditions?
I used glucose in my baits for the obvious reasons, its what they get converted into and I cannot say say this added to the attraction one bit, on paper my thinking is that it may help with the digestion but as an overhaul bait additive i cannot say I was convinced. Free fermenting sugars seem much more attractive, could be wrong
In reply to Post #52
So which single cell protein ingredients that are available today for the home roller would have the same effect when combined with icing sugar?
So which single cell protein ingredients that are available today for the home roller would have the same effect when combined with icing sugar?
In reply to Post #66
Brewers yeast
Brewers yeast
In reply to Post #67
My friend has a nut based bait and the only additves in it are brocacel yeast and liquid enzyme treated yeast from Feedstim. He says its the fastest turning bait he has used and the carp go mad for it especially in summer conditions.
My friend has a nut based bait and the only additves in it are brocacel yeast and liquid enzyme treated yeast from Feedstim. He says its the fastest turning bait he has used and the carp go mad for it especially in summer conditions.
In reply to Post #66
As said, yeast would be the obvious choice to me.
As said, yeast would be the obvious choice to me.
In reply to Post #69
Without much knowledge on the subject spirulina should also work well to my mind, but my results weren't as good.
Sales blurb aside, I'm not sure the differences between brewers, brocacel and high nucleotide yeast, the cheap one works for me tho
Without much knowledge on the subject spirulina should also work well to my mind, but my results weren't as good.
Sales blurb aside, I'm not sure the differences between brewers, brocacel and high nucleotide yeast, the cheap one works for me tho
In reply to Post #71
I have little experience on using spirulina.
But I guess different bacteria grow better on different materials and not all bacteria produce the same byproducts.
Looking at the medium used to grow bacteria in petri dishes their composition can be like this (copied and pasted)
0.5% Peptone
It is an enzymatic digest of animal protein. Peptone is the principal source of organic nitrogen for the growing bacteria.
0.3% beef extract/yeast extract
It is the water-soluble substances which aid in bacterial growth, such as vitamins, carbohydrates, organic nitrogen compounds and salts.
1.5% agar
It is the solidifying agent.
0.5% NaCl
The presence of sodium chloride in nutrient agar maintains a salt concentration in the medium that is similar to the cytoplasm of the microorganisms.
I have little experience on using spirulina.
But I guess different bacteria grow better on different materials and not all bacteria produce the same byproducts.
Looking at the medium used to grow bacteria in petri dishes their composition can be like this (copied and pasted)
0.5% Peptone
It is an enzymatic digest of animal protein. Peptone is the principal source of organic nitrogen for the growing bacteria.
0.3% beef extract/yeast extract
It is the water-soluble substances which aid in bacterial growth, such as vitamins, carbohydrates, organic nitrogen compounds and salts.
1.5% agar
It is the solidifying agent.
0.5% NaCl
The presence of sodium chloride in nutrient agar maintains a salt concentration in the medium that is similar to the cytoplasm of the microorganisms.
In reply to Post #74
Toronto, when you say 'massive amounts of sugar' how much. Interesting youve seen an increase in larger fish on average.
Are you adding it too the soaking AND boiling process or just post boil ? Then sealing the buckets for fermentation ?
Toronto, when you say 'massive amounts of sugar' how much. Interesting youve seen an increase in larger fish on average.
Are you adding it too the soaking AND boiling process or just post boil ? Then sealing the buckets for fermentation ?
In reply to Post #74
I can't view that link, it just comes up about/blank#blocked
I might have a play with the brocacel once it's too cold to sit on a beach for my angling fix
I can't view that link, it just comes up about/blank#blocked
I might have a play with the brocacel once it's too cold to sit on a beach for my angling fix
In reply to Post #78
Thanks, that's a really interesting article
Thanks, that's a really interesting article
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