Just seen an advert on Facebook for the 'original' Nutrabaits BFM and list it as containing Krill meal and PDFM. It really bugs me when companies advertise baits as original when in fact its clear the recipe is unrecognisable from the original.
As a side note the protein content of the bait is listed as 19%. So you have to wonder how much casien and fishmeal the bait actually contains?
Thoughts?
As a side note the protein content of the bait is listed as 19%. So you have to wonder how much casien and fishmeal the bait actually contains?
Thoughts?
In reply to Post #1
My thought is to stay away from it...
My thought is to stay away from it...
In reply to Post #1
I used to love nutrabaits mainly because I could make my own boilies that were unique to me with all their flavours available it was great,then I heard they went downhill a lot after being sold so switched companies.
I used to love nutrabaits mainly because I could make my own boilies that were unique to me with all their flavours available it was great,then I heard they went downhill a lot after being sold so switched companies.
In reply to Post #1
As a side note the protein content of the bait is listed as 19%.
So you have to wonder how much casien and fishmeal the bait actually contains?
A few finger pinches of each. is my guess.
Nothing like the protein content of the original with near a 50% fishmeal content, with a good dose of quality milk proteins.
As a side note the protein content of the bait is listed as 19%.
So you have to wonder how much casien and fishmeal the bait actually contains?
A few finger pinches of each. is my guess.
Nothing like the protein content of the original with near a 50% fishmeal content, with a good dose of quality milk proteins.
In reply to Post #1
It's certainly not the original, I think Dave said it on a podcast that it would cost way to much to produce the bait to the original recipe. At 19% that sounds incredibly low must have very little in the way of fishmeal and milks. Unfortunately you can throw a little bit in the mix these days and list it on the bag as an ingredient. How much of it is at meaningful levels is anyone's guess.
It's certainly not the original, I think Dave said it on a podcast that it would cost way to much to produce the bait to the original recipe. At 19% that sounds incredibly low must have very little in the way of fishmeal and milks. Unfortunately you can throw a little bit in the mix these days and list it on the bag as an ingredient. How much of it is at meaningful levels is anyone's guess.
In reply to Post #1
The original BFM never had those 2 ingredients in so it cant be original , also the version that was put on sale was watered down from daves original recipe due to cost.
The original BFM never had those 2 ingredients in so it cant be original , also the version that was put on sale was watered down from daves original recipe due to cost.
In reply to Post #6
That is my point
That is my point
In reply to Post #6
Quality Costs, now and then.
Exactly, Original mix by name, but not THE original.
Dave's version was more milk protein mix than fishmeal I believe, that was tweaked, or watered down to become financially profitible & feasible to bring to market by Nutrabaits back then, late 90's, and again now to be more marketable to young generation anglers that weren't around to know or made the original mix.
Quality Costs, now and then.
Exactly, Original mix by name, but not THE original.
Dave's version was more milk protein mix than fishmeal I believe, that was tweaked, or watered down to become financially profitible & feasible to bring to market by Nutrabaits back then, late 90's, and again now to be more marketable to young generation anglers that weren't around to know or made the original mix.
This bait game needs to be regulated.. Not enough information out there for the consumer. Apart from actually being present when they put your bait together your never sure what your getting these days I know a few of the bigger companys list what goes in to there baits fish, vegetable product etc. But that's as far as it goes. No quantity or actual product are listed..And that's only so they can sell it abroad as European regs state. We are definately getting the wool pulled over our eyes in some case. 
In reply to Post #9
I think in the original the milk proteins were quite high from memory, only have to look at the cost increase in milks since then.
I think in the original the milk proteins were quite high from memory, only have to look at the cost increase in milks since then.
Since Bill Cottam left Nutrabaits I can say I have no trust left in the company. If you had a problem him or one of his consultants would give you great advice over the phone or by email.
I never used Big Fish Mix as much as I did othe Nutrabaits baits, ingredients or flavours, but from memory that is nothing like the original base mix.
Too many bait companies, not just Nutrabaits, are changing mixes, yet saying it is the same as the original.
Ingredients have moved on, prices have increased, but not all baits are better, in fact many are worse than the original.
To my mind, carp get most of their energy from proteins and fats, I am not sure of their ability to process carbohydrates. (I would honestly like to know if carp are essentially diabetic).
Using protein for energy may seem wasteful, but if the protein level is only around 19%, then they are using protein first for energy before they can utilise any for tissue and muscle growth or repair. Add to that animal proteins are a better supply than vegetable proteins.
The known fat content in the bait is then needed whether the fat is being used for energy
I never used Big Fish Mix as much as I did othe Nutrabaits baits, ingredients or flavours, but from memory that is nothing like the original base mix.
Too many bait companies, not just Nutrabaits, are changing mixes, yet saying it is the same as the original.
Ingredients have moved on, prices have increased, but not all baits are better, in fact many are worse than the original.
To my mind, carp get most of their energy from proteins and fats, I am not sure of their ability to process carbohydrates. (I would honestly like to know if carp are essentially diabetic).
Using protein for energy may seem wasteful, but if the protein level is only around 19%, then they are using protein first for energy before they can utilise any for tissue and muscle growth or repair. Add to that animal proteins are a better supply than vegetable proteins.
The known fat content in the bait is then needed whether the fat is being used for energy
I too remember when it first came out.
Me and and a mate rolled our own in our parents back gardens much to their disgust lol.
Yep can't recall krill being one of the ingredients.
Recipe taken from another website
https://forum.carp.com/topic/18111-big-fish-mix-unveiled/
Me and and a mate rolled our own in our parents back gardens much to their disgust lol.
Yep can't recall krill being one of the ingredients.
Recipe taken from another website
https://forum.carp.com/topic/18111-big-fish-mix-unveiled/
Used plenty of BFM years ago and had total faith in it up to the point of Bill selling out, some mates preferred Trigga/Trigga Ice but I never really done that well on it personally but I do believe some baits do better on some waters compared to others.
Its difficult these days to have faith in most bait companies when we have had quality baits provided by companies through the 90's and early 00's like QB's Patsull Park, Premier Amino's, Tails up Provit Livers, Essential B5, Mainline NRG, Active/Maple 8 and the original Grange, Nash Scopex Squid Livers, Matrix all great baits that put nuffty fish on the bank for me.(sounds like I've chopped and changed a lot but only when the baits did really or I noticed differences), theres near 30 years of angling in the above list.
These days personally I hold little faith in almost all of the bait companies in providing a bait to the above's carp catching abilities bar a few, I take notice of the catch results and in a short space of time were out the gates, Baitworks for nearly all their bait range feed and hookers not a lover of the Royal Marine, and also anything Mark does at Specialized Hookbaits are what I've settled on for my angling nowadays, no doubt theres a few others that anglers have faith in like Trent baits which is one I've never tried been around 20 years CC Moore have been up and down for me over the years tried a few bits and bobs certain feed baits but never really had it away on theirs, toyed with the newer large bait firms like Sticky and DNA and the likes but never blew my foreskin back in terms of results.
Its difficult these days to have faith in most bait companies when we have had quality baits provided by companies through the 90's and early 00's like QB's Patsull Park, Premier Amino's, Tails up Provit Livers, Essential B5, Mainline NRG, Active/Maple 8 and the original Grange, Nash Scopex Squid Livers, Matrix all great baits that put nuffty fish on the bank for me.(sounds like I've chopped and changed a lot but only when the baits did really or I noticed differences), theres near 30 years of angling in the above list.
These days personally I hold little faith in almost all of the bait companies in providing a bait to the above's carp catching abilities bar a few, I take notice of the catch results and in a short space of time were out the gates, Baitworks for nearly all their bait range feed and hookers not a lover of the Royal Marine, and also anything Mark does at Specialized Hookbaits are what I've settled on for my angling nowadays, no doubt theres a few others that anglers have faith in like Trent baits which is one I've never tried been around 20 years CC Moore have been up and down for me over the years tried a few bits and bobs certain feed baits but never really had it away on theirs, toyed with the newer large bait firms like Sticky and DNA and the likes but never blew my foreskin back in terms of results.
In reply to Post #12
Carpstar,
I don't think that there are many food baits out there now like there used to be, and not many anglers fish that way any more, establishing a food source. So many current anglers chop and change baits after a couple of bad sessions instead of thinking, assessing and blaming their fishing.
I did very well on Trigga, the original bait in Shelf life and frozen, and even better on a 'tweaked' version a mate and I used.
While I have done well on other baits I have used since then, not many available now give me the confidence that Nutrabaits did with Enervite, Enervite Gold, Trigga or The Biollix.
I'll quote the whole post that JasonM references as the other forum is my baby and I don't want to cause any forum grief with external links:
hnv
Posted August 2, 2013
Surely we have all heard of the Big Fish Mix from Nutrabaits? Although an old recipe now, it is still a fantastic fishmeal bait with an excellent nutritional profile that is also instantly attractive to carp. I have "lifted" this recipe directly from the Nutrabaits 1996/97 bait catalogue and as it has been in the public domain for years now (if you know where to look!) I don't think Bill will mind it being reproduced here. I have given the recipe and a breif description of each ingredient.
BFM recipe - To make 16oz of base mix:
2 oz Capelin meal
3 oz Sardine & Anchovy meal
3 oz White fishmeal
3 oz Sluis CLO
2 oz Acid Casein
1/2 oz Kelp powder
1/2 oz Robin Red
1 oz Nutrapro
1 oz Nutralac
Description of ingredients:
Capelin meal - oily fishmeal, 70% protein content.
Sardine & Anchovy meal - blend of two oily fishmeals, 60% protein content.
White fishmeal - (Provimi 66), heavy fishmeal, high in amino acid Lysine, 66% protein content.
Sluis CLO - high quality egg biscuit bird food, contains cod liver oil, helps with binding and rolling.
Acid casein - Pure milk protein, 90%+ protein content.
Kelp powder - pure dried seaweed, rich in vitamins and minerals and trace elements that carp require for optimum digestion.
Robin Red - bird food used to feed show birds such as red factor canaries, full of attractors that carp love including Carophyl Red.
Nutrapro - Nutrabaits own branded milk protein mixture, contains lactoglobulin (approx. 50%) and lactalbumin (approx. 20%) and whey protein, 80% overall protein content, also helps with binding and hardening of baits.
Nutralac - slightly sweet, high fat milk supplement powder for rearing lambs (other milk replacerments are available such as Vitamelo, a calf rearing product).
So, there you have it. One of the best all-time carp catching fishmeals laid bare...
Some classic attractor packages for this bait are:
16oz BFM
2g green lipped mussel extract
20 ml Nutramino (or equivalent such as minamino)
20 ml salmon oil
4ml green lipped mussel UTCS flavour
16oz BFM
2g betaine HCl
20 ml Nutramino
15 ml salmon oil
3 ml Caviar UTCS flavour
6 drops of black pepper
Carpstar,
I don't think that there are many food baits out there now like there used to be, and not many anglers fish that way any more, establishing a food source. So many current anglers chop and change baits after a couple of bad sessions instead of thinking, assessing and blaming their fishing.
I did very well on Trigga, the original bait in Shelf life and frozen, and even better on a 'tweaked' version a mate and I used.
While I have done well on other baits I have used since then, not many available now give me the confidence that Nutrabaits did with Enervite, Enervite Gold, Trigga or The Biollix.
I'll quote the whole post that JasonM references as the other forum is my baby and I don't want to cause any forum grief with external links:
hnv
Posted August 2, 2013
Surely we have all heard of the Big Fish Mix from Nutrabaits? Although an old recipe now, it is still a fantastic fishmeal bait with an excellent nutritional profile that is also instantly attractive to carp. I have "lifted" this recipe directly from the Nutrabaits 1996/97 bait catalogue and as it has been in the public domain for years now (if you know where to look!) I don't think Bill will mind it being reproduced here. I have given the recipe and a breif description of each ingredient.
BFM recipe - To make 16oz of base mix:
2 oz Capelin meal
3 oz Sardine & Anchovy meal
3 oz White fishmeal
3 oz Sluis CLO
2 oz Acid Casein
1/2 oz Kelp powder
1/2 oz Robin Red
1 oz Nutrapro
1 oz Nutralac
Description of ingredients:
Capelin meal - oily fishmeal, 70% protein content.
Sardine & Anchovy meal - blend of two oily fishmeals, 60% protein content.
White fishmeal - (Provimi 66), heavy fishmeal, high in amino acid Lysine, 66% protein content.
Sluis CLO - high quality egg biscuit bird food, contains cod liver oil, helps with binding and rolling.
Acid casein - Pure milk protein, 90%+ protein content.
Kelp powder - pure dried seaweed, rich in vitamins and minerals and trace elements that carp require for optimum digestion.
Robin Red - bird food used to feed show birds such as red factor canaries, full of attractors that carp love including Carophyl Red.
Nutrapro - Nutrabaits own branded milk protein mixture, contains lactoglobulin (approx. 50%) and lactalbumin (approx. 20%) and whey protein, 80% overall protein content, also helps with binding and hardening of baits.
Nutralac - slightly sweet, high fat milk supplement powder for rearing lambs (other milk replacerments are available such as Vitamelo, a calf rearing product).
So, there you have it. One of the best all-time carp catching fishmeals laid bare...
Some classic attractor packages for this bait are:
16oz BFM
2g green lipped mussel extract
20 ml Nutramino (or equivalent such as minamino)
20 ml salmon oil
4ml green lipped mussel UTCS flavour
16oz BFM
2g betaine HCl
20 ml Nutramino
15 ml salmon oil
3 ml Caviar UTCS flavour
6 drops of black pepper
In reply to Post #14
It does seem to bit of a travesty that they can turn that base mix into one with a crude protein level of 19% (if that's true) and still call it the same thing!!
It does seem to bit of a travesty that they can turn that base mix into one with a crude protein level of 19% (if that's true) and still call it the same thing!!
Sign of the times, trying to drum up business, many will be drawn in.
Only way to truly know is to buy the ingredients from non-fishing companies and make your own.
I take all my baits to lakes where I can see the reaction over & over, it gives me confidence to fish without worry which is the biggest thing for me.
All of the readymade baits I've used over the last 4 or 5 seasons have been accepted with gusto.
I do think that angling pressure, lake circumstances, ability and the way in which the bait is used makes the difference unless it really is not very good bait.
Only way to truly know is to buy the ingredients from non-fishing companies and make your own.
I take all my baits to lakes where I can see the reaction over & over, it gives me confidence to fish without worry which is the biggest thing for me.
All of the readymade baits I've used over the last 4 or 5 seasons have been accepted with gusto.
I do think that angling pressure, lake circumstances, ability and the way in which the bait is used makes the difference unless it really is not very good bait.
In reply to Post #15
That's not just confined to the bait industry. Recipe changes happen all the time in the food industry. Yes ingredients are declared on pack, but not with a content % (unless it's a key quidded ingredient). So there's plenty of scope for changing recipe %'s without the average consumer knowing. Then there's switching between raw material suppliers for cost reasons, as long as the legal declaration is the same, the on pack ingredient declaration stays the same. Any changes to nutritional value would need to be reflected though, but who reads those everytime and notices any changes?
And as for BFM it has changed for sure (I used to roll my own back in the day, and have used ready rolled recently) but IMO is still a good bait
That's not just confined to the bait industry. Recipe changes happen all the time in the food industry. Yes ingredients are declared on pack, but not with a content % (unless it's a key quidded ingredient). So there's plenty of scope for changing recipe %'s without the average consumer knowing. Then there's switching between raw material suppliers for cost reasons, as long as the legal declaration is the same, the on pack ingredient declaration stays the same. Any changes to nutritional value would need to be reflected though, but who reads those everytime and notices any changes?
And as for BFM it has changed for sure (I used to roll my own back in the day, and have used ready rolled recently) but IMO is still a good bait
In reply to Post #17
For me, i understand reformulation is commonplace and usually a necessity in some shape or form.
What annoyed me with Nutrabaits' is they go out their way to saying they are adhering to the original recipes. They use it as a selling point to lure punters in.
If they advertised it as 'New and improved BFM.' like i see on a lot of foods (even if we all know it usually means its got worse!) then i personally wouldn't have an issue with it.
I agree with the points below, the industry needs some regulation
For me, i understand reformulation is commonplace and usually a necessity in some shape or form.
What annoyed me with Nutrabaits' is they go out their way to saying they are adhering to the original recipes. They use it as a selling point to lure punters in.
If they advertised it as 'New and improved BFM.' like i see on a lot of foods (even if we all know it usually means its got worse!) then i personally wouldn't have an issue with it.
I agree with the points below, the industry needs some regulation
I have not used it but I have used plenty of the older stuff “with some” and found it to be a very good bait at the time 
Without getting the calculator out the protein levels cannot be close if they are now claiming 19% but is protein content everything?
I guess the answer is in the use but as mentioned, if it ain't close to the pre marketed stuff then it is wrong to call it BFM. Unless they put a statement out with it saying this is a close as it gets folks. Once a good base always a good base for me while ever we are using powders bound with egg
Had a look out of interest
The all time classic recipe combines a perfect blend of premium quality fish meal's, pre-digested fishmeals, Haith's Robin Red, Sluis CLO, human food grade milk and whey proteins along with vitamins and minerals.
Without getting the calculator out the protein levels cannot be close if they are now claiming 19% but is protein content everything?
I guess the answer is in the use but as mentioned, if it ain't close to the pre marketed stuff then it is wrong to call it BFM. Unless they put a statement out with it saying this is a close as it gets folks. Once a good base always a good base for me while ever we are using powders bound with egg
Had a look out of interest
The all time classic recipe combines a perfect blend of premium quality fish meal's, pre-digested fishmeals, Haith's Robin Red, Sluis CLO, human food grade milk and whey proteins along with vitamins and minerals.
In reply to Post #19
Protein is certainly not everything, I think the issue is if it contains decent levels of fishmeals alongside the other ingredients in the basemix it should certainly be upwards of that figure. If it's not then what is your money buying cheap bulk ingredients maybe.
Protein is certainly not everything, I think the issue is if it contains decent levels of fishmeals alongside the other ingredients in the basemix it should certainly be upwards of that figure. If it's not then what is your money buying cheap bulk ingredients maybe.
In reply to Post #20
Agree
And like the rumours is it or not, who cares, a spin off from Premeirs original mix, what was it, 50% fish meal, 25% bird food and a whooping 25% milks, 3 ingredients! And some
19% protein, mmmmm, don't need a calculator for that!
Agree
And like the rumours is it or not, who cares, a spin off from Premeirs original mix, what was it, 50% fish meal, 25% bird food and a whooping 25% milks, 3 ingredients! And some
19% protein, mmmmm, don't need a calculator for that!
I'm inclined to agree with everyone else who's says the mix should be re named or stated that it's as close as we could afford to do. Apart from pdfm and krill, the mix could be the same but at vastly changed inclusion levels. Iirc a 10k bucket of base was £72 way back so imagine how much that same bucket would cost now 
. I actually used to cut mine to make it go further and i found it a better bait with a big dollop of maize added. With virtually no anglers able to establish a food source nowadays is there really any point in the hnv theory now? Tbh as much as I hate to say it, as long as a bait has a "food label" then it's gonna get eaten.
. I actually used to cut mine to make it go further and i found it a better bait with a big dollop of maize added. With virtually no anglers able to establish a food source nowadays is there really any point in the hnv theory now? Tbh as much as I hate to say it, as long as a bait has a "food label" then it's gonna get eaten.
In reply to Post #22
Not sure there'll be any lactalbumin in it now.....
Not sure there'll be any lactalbumin in it now.....
In reply to Post #23
Very true, iirc lactalbumin is virtually unusable now due to availability and cost, milks more likely to be a dash of wpc.
Very true, iirc lactalbumin is virtually unusable now due to availability and cost, milks more likely to be a dash of wpc.
In reply to Post #18
Regulation always comes hand in hand with higher prices.
Regulation always comes hand in hand with higher prices.
In reply to Post #25
Checked a label of a bag of BFM basemix in the Tackle box recently.
48.42% protein
7.42% Oil
2.84% Fibre
12.49% ash
Checked a label of a bag of BFM basemix in the Tackle box recently.
48.42% protein
7.42% Oil
2.84% Fibre
12.49% ash
In reply to Post #26
48.42% protein
So not 19% as claimed, wonder where that info came from
48.42% protein
So not 19% as claimed, wonder where that info came from
In reply to Post #26
So what is the ash? In the BFM
So what is the ash? In the BFM
In reply to Post #28
From what I understand it is the mineral content that would not burn like fats/protein/carbs were they to do a combustion test. You'll find the same thing on pet food labels.
From what I understand it is the mineral content that would not burn like fats/protein/carbs were they to do a combustion test. You'll find the same thing on pet food labels.
In reply to Post #27
I am talking about the rolled bait. In particular the shelf life (that they claim to be the same recipe) the packet says 19% protein
I am talking about the rolled bait. In particular the shelf life (that they claim to be the same recipe) the packet says 19% protein
In reply to Post #30
2 possibilities:
1) they aren't that strong in math.
If you start with 48% protein for the base mix, you have to produce over 2,5kg boilies with 1kg mix to match the 19% protein for the boilies.
2) they are making use of another base mix
2 possibilities:
1) they aren't that strong in math.
If you start with 48% protein for the base mix, you have to produce over 2,5kg boilies with 1kg mix to match the 19% protein for the boilies.
2) they are making use of another base mix
In reply to Post #29
Ah ok 👍
Ah ok 👍
In reply to Post #31
"If you start with 48% protein for the base mix, you have to produce over 2,5kg boilies with 1kg mix to match the 19% protein for the boilies."
Likely nearer to 3kg considering the eggs that would be used are about 12.5% protein.
and there is no way that you can add 2lb of eggs to 1kg of base mix and have anything but a sloppy mess so it must be being cut with something.
"If you start with 48% protein for the base mix, you have to produce over 2,5kg boilies with 1kg mix to match the 19% protein for the boilies."
Likely nearer to 3kg considering the eggs that would be used are about 12.5% protein.
and there is no way that you can add 2lb of eggs to 1kg of base mix and have anything but a sloppy mess so it must be being cut with something.
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