Hi,
I find myself down the bait/boilie rabbit hole! I understand that many companies can't produce bait to the highest standard bait quality wise without it affecting prices that many anglers won't pay. One thing that I'm questioning is the importance of protein levels in a bait. I have seen that most bait firms have a sub 30% protein level. Am I right in saying that a higher protein bait with a good attractor/flavour will be more effective?
Also how important is fat levels in a bait and is there a specific ratio between the macro nutrients?
Hope my questions make sense but if I'm barking up the wrong tree let me know.
I find myself down the bait/boilie rabbit hole! I understand that many companies can't produce bait to the highest standard bait quality wise without it affecting prices that many anglers won't pay. One thing that I'm questioning is the importance of protein levels in a bait. I have seen that most bait firms have a sub 30% protein level. Am I right in saying that a higher protein bait with a good attractor/flavour will be more effective?
Also how important is fat levels in a bait and is there a specific ratio between the macro nutrients?
Hope my questions make sense but if I'm barking up the wrong tree let me know.
In reply to Post #1
any living creature can only use a certain amount of protein, above that level is pure waste and pointless
any living creature can only use a certain amount of protein, above that level is pure waste and pointless
In reply to Post #1
Most the good quality fishmeal baits out there are much higher than 30% lol.
Protein is best thought of as an umbrella term in bait construction, and pure measured protein doesn't correlated to what would be termed as "available" protein to fish. a good read up on balanced amino acid profiles, sources both animal and vegetal of protein, as well as what function the rest of your ingredients play in the bait are very relevant factors to bare in mind. having an extremely fibrous bait in inherently reduces intestinal cycle speed for lack of a better word, they pass it before making meaningful use of the nutrients within it. and its not as simple as upping the protein to account for this.
Very very few commercially available baits have been put together with this in mind, which is fundamental and almost basic, however not all baits are designed to be nutritionally high in value, despite the sales blurb.
A higher protein level MAY work to your advantage based on the free amino acid content, however don't necessarily look at protein as the fish catcher, more, the trade off in terms of supplied nutrients to the lake in return for yanking a few residents out lip first lol!
With regards to Fat, its extremely important in a bait, as are all nutrients, but again, much like with humans, different fats have different functions within baits.
Regarding macro nutrients, very very few bait makers work out the macro nutrient levels of there baits before lobbing in a spoonful or two of vitamin supplements and blindly hoping its addressed it ( it will address some dependant on the pre addition state of your bait ).
In short unless you've the knowledge, time, and expense to be able to play with this topic long term, its going to be a much easier to take different routes to increasing the attractiveness of your bait. I recommend now, as I always have, a natural impact type route such as hydrolysates, extracts, powdered additives etc, as opposed to synthetic flavours.
Good Luck
Most the good quality fishmeal baits out there are much higher than 30% lol.
Protein is best thought of as an umbrella term in bait construction, and pure measured protein doesn't correlated to what would be termed as "available" protein to fish. a good read up on balanced amino acid profiles, sources both animal and vegetal of protein, as well as what function the rest of your ingredients play in the bait are very relevant factors to bare in mind. having an extremely fibrous bait in inherently reduces intestinal cycle speed for lack of a better word, they pass it before making meaningful use of the nutrients within it. and its not as simple as upping the protein to account for this.
Very very few commercially available baits have been put together with this in mind, which is fundamental and almost basic, however not all baits are designed to be nutritionally high in value, despite the sales blurb.
A higher protein level MAY work to your advantage based on the free amino acid content, however don't necessarily look at protein as the fish catcher, more, the trade off in terms of supplied nutrients to the lake in return for yanking a few residents out lip first lol!
With regards to Fat, its extremely important in a bait, as are all nutrients, but again, much like with humans, different fats have different functions within baits.
Regarding macro nutrients, very very few bait makers work out the macro nutrient levels of there baits before lobbing in a spoonful or two of vitamin supplements and blindly hoping its addressed it ( it will address some dependant on the pre addition state of your bait ).
In short unless you've the knowledge, time, and expense to be able to play with this topic long term, its going to be a much easier to take different routes to increasing the attractiveness of your bait. I recommend now, as I always have, a natural impact type route such as hydrolysates, extracts, powdered additives etc, as opposed to synthetic flavours.
Good Luck
In reply to Post #1
Nutritional understanding can send you through that rabbit hole.
Protein is not just protein!
They are made up of amino acids, of which carp have a requirement for specific essential amino acids.
Essential amino acids have to be provided by the food, non Essential amino acids can be synthesised from Essential AA's.
I can copy and paste the EAA's from a study of the Japanese Society of Fisheries Science.
It was found that there were no distinct differences in the EAA requirements between carp and rainbow trout. The comtents of EAA in the dietary proteins (%) needed to satisfy the requirements of carp and rainbow trout were; leucine, 4.1, 4.4, isoleucine, 2.3, 2.4, valine, 2.9, 3.1, threonine, 3.3, 3.4, phenylalanine, 2.9, 3.1, tyrosine, 2.0, 2.1, methionine, 1.6, 1.8, cystine, 0.8, 0.9, tryptophan, 0.6 0.5, arginine, 3.8, 3.5, histidine, 1.4, 1.6, and lysine, 5.3 and 5.3,
Not all food items contain all of the EAA'S, so, for example, vegetable proteins are not a complete useable protein, their is a requirement for some food containing the other EAA'S, be that a fish, meat, fungal or yeast protein.
Then we come to energy requirements. The need for energy has to be fulfilled before nutrition!
All 3 of carbohydrates, fats and proteins provide energy, BUT, why waste protein as an energy source when fat and carbohydrates do the same?
Fish meal for ages was the obvious source, until overfishing and increased prices has made it expensive in a bait.
Then you have additional nutritional requirements, for vitamins and minerals, which may come from different sources. A protein provider does not always provide the required vitamins and minerals.
The simple way to provide everything required was a mix of milk proteins, birdfoods, fishmeal. Think Big Fix Mix, Trigga, Premier baits, and others.
You had all of your Vitamins and minerals and your EAA'S, your energy sources.
You can kill a good bait with too high flavour levels!
Nutritional understanding can send you through that rabbit hole.
Protein is not just protein!
They are made up of amino acids, of which carp have a requirement for specific essential amino acids.
Essential amino acids have to be provided by the food, non Essential amino acids can be synthesised from Essential AA's.
I can copy and paste the EAA's from a study of the Japanese Society of Fisheries Science.
It was found that there were no distinct differences in the EAA requirements between carp and rainbow trout. The comtents of EAA in the dietary proteins (%) needed to satisfy the requirements of carp and rainbow trout were; leucine, 4.1, 4.4, isoleucine, 2.3, 2.4, valine, 2.9, 3.1, threonine, 3.3, 3.4, phenylalanine, 2.9, 3.1, tyrosine, 2.0, 2.1, methionine, 1.6, 1.8, cystine, 0.8, 0.9, tryptophan, 0.6 0.5, arginine, 3.8, 3.5, histidine, 1.4, 1.6, and lysine, 5.3 and 5.3,
Not all food items contain all of the EAA'S, so, for example, vegetable proteins are not a complete useable protein, their is a requirement for some food containing the other EAA'S, be that a fish, meat, fungal or yeast protein.
Then we come to energy requirements. The need for energy has to be fulfilled before nutrition!
All 3 of carbohydrates, fats and proteins provide energy, BUT, why waste protein as an energy source when fat and carbohydrates do the same?
Fish meal for ages was the obvious source, until overfishing and increased prices has made it expensive in a bait.
Then you have additional nutritional requirements, for vitamins and minerals, which may come from different sources. A protein provider does not always provide the required vitamins and minerals.
The simple way to provide everything required was a mix of milk proteins, birdfoods, fishmeal. Think Big Fix Mix, Trigga, Premier baits, and others.
You had all of your Vitamins and minerals and your EAA'S, your energy sources.
You can kill a good bait with too high flavour levels!
Thanks for your responses. So if you only have access to commercial bait. What is the best way to firstly to identify a good bait and secondly enhance a standard bait to something that is a more attractive meal? There are glugs,dips,powders that can be used but surely if a better made boilie can be identified its a win win.
In reply to Post #5
I won't answer the first part, as a Boilie Producer I'd be bias, but you can certainly intensify and amplify the food signals off of most baits.
My favourite thing to do was always let some baits soak in a quality hydrolysate for two days, ad a sprinkle of powders like GLM, salt, krill meal etc but not much, so its still basically wet, then a day later glaze with hemp oil.
very very very good if streuggling to get fish to feed in the bottom thermoclines.
However an easier option for a lot of people is mixing a hydro 50-50 with warm water and letting that soak into the core of the baits, then dusting with groundbait
I won't answer the first part, as a Boilie Producer I'd be bias, but you can certainly intensify and amplify the food signals off of most baits.
My favourite thing to do was always let some baits soak in a quality hydrolysate for two days, ad a sprinkle of powders like GLM, salt, krill meal etc but not much, so its still basically wet, then a day later glaze with hemp oil.
very very very good if streuggling to get fish to feed in the bottom thermoclines.
However an easier option for a lot of people is mixing a hydro 50-50 with warm water and letting that soak into the core of the baits, then dusting with groundbait
In reply to Post #6
Please do give your point on bait production mate (don't give up to many secrets haha).
I soak my baits in water and add salt and glaze with a liquid. I have never really used GLM as much as I should used to use squid powder.
Please do give your point on bait production mate (don't give up to many secrets haha).
I soak my baits in water and add salt and glaze with a liquid. I have never really used GLM as much as I should used to use squid powder.
In reply to Post #1
I've enjoyed listening to many of the podcasts on the Carp Chronicles or Carp Cast with some very informative bait brains with varying ideas on the same subjects, I've come to the conclusion who knows whats right they all have varying ideas and thought processes.
Don't go down the rabbit hole would be my advice.
I've enjoyed listening to many of the podcasts on the Carp Chronicles or Carp Cast with some very informative bait brains with varying ideas on the same subjects, I've come to the conclusion who knows whats right they all have varying ideas and thought processes.
Don't go down the rabbit hole would be my advice.
In reply to Post #8
And don't forget that the most balanced, nutritious bait won't necessarily catch you the most fish. The best bait is the one the fish want to eat the most of.
There's a difference between best bait for catching fish and best food source.
And don't forget that the most balanced, nutritious bait won't necessarily catch you the most fish. The best bait is the one the fish want to eat the most of.
There's a difference between best bait for catching fish and best food source.
In reply to Post #7
N o I mean I won't recommend anything as I'd be bias lol
N o I mean I won't recommend anything as I'd be bias lol
In reply to Post #9
They're a hell of a lot closer linked than you think in some cases, And I feel there is a responsibility to get good food into the lake especially if subjecting fish to trauma etc nutrient Rich environment to recover.
They're a hell of a lot closer linked than you think in some cases, And I feel there is a responsibility to get good food into the lake especially if subjecting fish to trauma etc nutrient Rich environment to recover.
In reply to Post #11
What bait do you make as you seem knowlegable
What bait do you make as you seem knowlegable
In reply to Post #8
Yeah make you right!
Yeah make you right!
In reply to Post #11
They're a hell of a lot closer linked than you think in some cases
That's an oxymoron isn't it?
They're a hell of a lot closer linked than you think in some cases
That's an oxymoron isn't it?
In reply to Post #9
If you can feed with a good boilie it can be the best food source available.
Enough of a good food source boilie can get the fish off naturals, although I would say it can be difficult to put enough in to do that on some waters.
That decent food source boilie can also have the fish taking that in preference to any other bait.
I have seen it happen on more than one occasion.
The original Grange CSL (it's full and proper name), named after the Essex Grange, was baited in so much quantity, that the carp in the lake would not take anything else, and the fish grew in weight on a water that did not have the biggest amount of natural food.
While Grange CSL was effective catching many fish, including The Amphibian, (Annie), goodness knows how many times it could be improved, the addition of Robin Red increased its attraction.
At Taverham Mills, New Concepts Baits Mariner Mix was fed in such high quantity that it was difficult to get fish feeding over any other boilie.
I improved Trigga by the addition of a taste enhancer, a low level flavour, GLM Extract and Betaine HCl. The improved version caught more than the standard freezer or shelf life.
I believe Ken T also found it an improvement on the standard.
The Biollix, despite being touted by Nutrabaits as a roll and catch base mix, (which did work), could be improved by the addition of the two big liquid foods, Nutramino, Multimino PPc, cinnamon Essential oil and Peach Nutrafruit.
I watched fish moving upstream on the river to search it out, and they most definitely would take that in preference to other baits, including sweetcorn, which could be left.
If you can feed with a good boilie it can be the best food source available.
Enough of a good food source boilie can get the fish off naturals, although I would say it can be difficult to put enough in to do that on some waters.
That decent food source boilie can also have the fish taking that in preference to any other bait.
I have seen it happen on more than one occasion.
The original Grange CSL (it's full and proper name), named after the Essex Grange, was baited in so much quantity, that the carp in the lake would not take anything else, and the fish grew in weight on a water that did not have the biggest amount of natural food.
While Grange CSL was effective catching many fish, including The Amphibian, (Annie), goodness knows how many times it could be improved, the addition of Robin Red increased its attraction.
At Taverham Mills, New Concepts Baits Mariner Mix was fed in such high quantity that it was difficult to get fish feeding over any other boilie.
I improved Trigga by the addition of a taste enhancer, a low level flavour, GLM Extract and Betaine HCl. The improved version caught more than the standard freezer or shelf life.
I believe Ken T also found it an improvement on the standard.
The Biollix, despite being touted by Nutrabaits as a roll and catch base mix, (which did work), could be improved by the addition of the two big liquid foods, Nutramino, Multimino PPc, cinnamon Essential oil and Peach Nutrafruit.
I watched fish moving upstream on the river to search it out, and they most definitely would take that in preference to other baits, including sweetcorn, which could be left.
In reply to Post #15
So you are saying that Grange was the most nutritionally balanced bait being fed? Or was it just the only bait being fed, in big quantities? And why did the fish start coming out on 8-ball when that started being fed?
Don't get me wrong, if i could still get the proper Grange, id still be on it. But it wasn't the most nutritionally perfect bait around at the time......
So you are saying that Grange was the most nutritionally balanced bait being fed? Or was it just the only bait being fed, in big quantities? And why did the fish start coming out on 8-ball when that started being fed?
Don't get me wrong, if i could still get the proper Grange, id still be on it. But it wasn't the most nutritionally perfect bait around at the time......
In reply to Post #16
Grange was Mainlines test pit. Almost everyone on there was a Mainline angler.
The switch from Grange CSL to 8Ball was the progression, and each was pretty much the only bait being fed.
Those who tried other baits failed, and ended up using Mainline bait. Its common knowledge that field testers were selling bait straight from the factory and making money out of it.
This country pretty much had a north/south divide, Mainline in the south, Nutrabaits in the north. It took the rise of selling direct (at less than tackle shop prices) for other bait companies to break into the market, or the hiring of a big name and a massive advertising campaign.
Grange does or did contain a complete protein profile, a yeast protein, and mixed with the Corn Steep liquor which contains amino acids and vitamins and minerals it was a decent food source.
Activ8 was a simple follow on still containing the vecon.
Grange was Mainlines test pit. Almost everyone on there was a Mainline angler.
The switch from Grange CSL to 8Ball was the progression, and each was pretty much the only bait being fed.
Those who tried other baits failed, and ended up using Mainline bait. Its common knowledge that field testers were selling bait straight from the factory and making money out of it.
This country pretty much had a north/south divide, Mainline in the south, Nutrabaits in the north. It took the rise of selling direct (at less than tackle shop prices) for other bait companies to break into the market, or the hiring of a big name and a massive advertising campaign.
Grange does or did contain a complete protein profile, a yeast protein, and mixed with the Corn Steep liquor which contains amino acids and vitamins and minerals it was a decent food source.
Activ8 was a simple follow on still containing the vecon.
In reply to Post #17
Back in the day I fished the Grange for a number of years and have never used a Mainline bait in my life, despite meeting Kevin and Steve down there. Maybe I just like making life harder for myself.
I agree that the water was saturation baited with whichever M bait was that years choice. And I agree that those using the bait caught plenty.
In the limited time I did on there I found that it wasn't easy to compete. I caught my share either with single smelly baits over big buckets of hemp or very small baits with tiny stringers. But it was a bit of an act of faith to try fishing like that.....
Back in the day I fished the Grange for a number of years and have never used a Mainline bait in my life, despite meeting Kevin and Steve down there. Maybe I just like making life harder for myself.
I agree that the water was saturation baited with whichever M bait was that years choice. And I agree that those using the bait caught plenty.
In the limited time I did on there I found that it wasn't easy to compete. I caught my share either with single smelly baits over big buckets of hemp or very small baits with tiny stringers. But it was a bit of an act of faith to try fishing like that.....
In reply to Post #17
That's my point - it wasn't the "best" bait, it was basically the only bait!
Just look at the results on Richworth readmades on unfairfield when there was a lot of other decent baits being fed in. Although it helps if you can put it in the right areas......
That's my point - it wasn't the "best" bait, it was basically the only bait!
Just look at the results on Richworth readmades on unfairfield when there was a lot of other decent baits being fed in. Although it helps if you can put it in the right areas......
In reply to Post #19
That's my point - it wasn't the "best" bait, it was basically the only bait!
Just look at the results on Richworth readmades on unfairfield when there was a lot of other decent baits being fed in. Although it helps if you can put it in the right areas
You're mixing your concepts.
The Richworth Tutti-Fruttis on Harefield were using attraction, attractor baits, the flavour, sticky sweet, in limited amounts.
Squimp used exactly the same concept on The Grange, with hemp or tiny stringers.
Attractor baits work in limited amounts. You don't fish with massive amounts of free boilies, you rely on the high attraction or even nutrition of the background feed (hemp) or the limited amount of freebies.
In the limited time I did on there I found that it wasn't easy to compete. I caught my share either with single smelly baits over big buckets of hemp or very small baits with tiny stringers. But it was a bit of an act of faith to try fishing like that
If you put an attractor bait, in the right place, as you rightly say, on a guaranteed patrol route, or on a natural food source, even over leftover bait, it can catch.
If a carp is munching and feeding over food, be that particles or boilies, it does not usually stop to inspect every item. Whatever boilie is on the hook will be taken.
If the boilie is giving off the right attraction signals on a patrol route, the carp might stop to take it. It does not necessarily mean that it is a viable food source. To inspect a bait the carp have to pick it up and mouth it, because they don't have hands. An efficient rig means they get hooked!
Years ago, back when I was still a youngster in my teens, I still caught my fair share of carp, on shelf life boilies, the ubiquitous Tutti-Frutti and Honey Yucatan baits. One bag would last me weeks, fishing every weekend. I discovered that a 3 or 4 bait stringer with the hookbait was all I needed to catch. I caught less when I used more!
It was the attraction of the high flavour level that got the fish picking up the hookbait. The same fish rarely got caught on the same boilie, to any angler. (Bear in mind we were all mates fishing the same water, so pooled information and baits). To continue catching you regularly had to change baits, until we discovered grinding up pond pellets, adding casein and semolina and making boilies.
We have gone back to the high attraction fishing, using spod mixes, particles, hydrolysate liquids and glugs instead of high attraction attractor boilies. Food source bait fishing is now a minority, except for those in the know, due in part because of the increased price of fishmeal.
That's my point - it wasn't the "best" bait, it was basically the only bait!
Just look at the results on Richworth readmades on unfairfield when there was a lot of other decent baits being fed in. Although it helps if you can put it in the right areas
You're mixing your concepts.
The Richworth Tutti-Fruttis on Harefield were using attraction, attractor baits, the flavour, sticky sweet, in limited amounts.
Squimp used exactly the same concept on The Grange, with hemp or tiny stringers.
Attractor baits work in limited amounts. You don't fish with massive amounts of free boilies, you rely on the high attraction or even nutrition of the background feed (hemp) or the limited amount of freebies.
In the limited time I did on there I found that it wasn't easy to compete. I caught my share either with single smelly baits over big buckets of hemp or very small baits with tiny stringers. But it was a bit of an act of faith to try fishing like that
If you put an attractor bait, in the right place, as you rightly say, on a guaranteed patrol route, or on a natural food source, even over leftover bait, it can catch.
If a carp is munching and feeding over food, be that particles or boilies, it does not usually stop to inspect every item. Whatever boilie is on the hook will be taken.
If the boilie is giving off the right attraction signals on a patrol route, the carp might stop to take it. It does not necessarily mean that it is a viable food source. To inspect a bait the carp have to pick it up and mouth it, because they don't have hands. An efficient rig means they get hooked!
Years ago, back when I was still a youngster in my teens, I still caught my fair share of carp, on shelf life boilies, the ubiquitous Tutti-Frutti and Honey Yucatan baits. One bag would last me weeks, fishing every weekend. I discovered that a 3 or 4 bait stringer with the hookbait was all I needed to catch. I caught less when I used more!
It was the attraction of the high flavour level that got the fish picking up the hookbait. The same fish rarely got caught on the same boilie, to any angler. (Bear in mind we were all mates fishing the same water, so pooled information and baits). To continue catching you regularly had to change baits, until we discovered grinding up pond pellets, adding casein and semolina and making boilies.
We have gone back to the high attraction fishing, using spod mixes, particles, hydrolysate liquids and glugs instead of high attraction attractor boilies. Food source bait fishing is now a minority, except for those in the know, due in part because of the increased price of fishmeal.
In reply to Post #20
Do you roll your own baits now or look for particular ingredients in a bait?
Do you roll your own baits now or look for particular ingredients in a bait?
In reply to Post #20
No Nick, there was, shall we say “boatloads” of Richworths going into Harefield. Not just Tutti's.
No Nick, there was, shall we say “boatloads” of Richworths going into Harefield. Not just Tutti's.
In reply to Post #22
Condensed Milk aka ‘Harefield Hauler'.
Condensed Milk aka ‘Harefield Hauler'.
In reply to Post #22
No Nick, there was, shall we say “boatloads” of Richworths going into Harefield. Not just Tutti's.
Not everyone using Richworths caught.
Baits can complement each other.
Many anglers who fished Harefield were rolling and fishing with high protein fishmeal baits.
Now this is the complement bit, the first nutritional need is for energy, which the high carbohydrate Richworths provided. The protein was provided by the Premier fishmeal baits.
Equally, you had anglers jumping in and fishing with Richworths over fishmeal boilies. Again, by accident or design, all nutritional needs provided, along with increased attraction of the fishmeal breaking down.
No Nick, there was, shall we say “boatloads” of Richworths going into Harefield. Not just Tutti's.
Not everyone using Richworths caught.
Baits can complement each other.
Many anglers who fished Harefield were rolling and fishing with high protein fishmeal baits.
Now this is the complement bit, the first nutritional need is for energy, which the high carbohydrate Richworths provided. The protein was provided by the Premier fishmeal baits.
Equally, you had anglers jumping in and fishing with Richworths over fishmeal boilies. Again, by accident or design, all nutritional needs provided, along with increased attraction of the fishmeal breaking down.
In reply to Post #24
And a lot of those anglers fishing their own baits admitted defeat and bought readymade. Selman and Lane mention it, for example.
But just goes to show the bait you use doesn't have to the best, most nutritious bait going. Just putting something they want to eat in the right place trumps any bait.
And a lot of those anglers fishing their own baits admitted defeat and bought readymade. Selman and Lane mention it, for example.
But just goes to show the bait you use doesn't have to the best, most nutritious bait going. Just putting something they want to eat in the right place trumps any bait.
In reply to Post #25
I have been to so many venues now where they tell you that you must be on a certain boilie to get results. Normally due to the fact that they sell the bait there (which I understand as they want to make extra money) but hand on heart, my own results often prove that a decent well balanced bait that is nothing like the bait being sold is often a better choice. A good bait is a good bait, and I try to look back with an open mind. Attractor baits can work short term as can tigers or sweetcorn but the biggest and more awkward ones to catch always slip up on a decent bait in the end. Welly was dominated by b5 when I went there and even the lads sponsored by other companies were using it. Three of us started on hnv pro and used maybe 2 percent of the volume of the other lads and we had an amazing season with all of the big mirrors slipping up to us.
Why do I think this happens? Well when anything is used to excess it always loses its effectiveness and the greater the pressure, the quicker it happens. Also, big carp need certain minerals and salts which they don't get from a lot of modern baits.
Tuttis In very small amounts can be effective but I found that I generally had poor results if I overdid them (too strong)
I always use small volumes of bait but they are all high protein and rich in minerals yet low in flavours.......and it seems to work everywhere regardless of who is piling in particles or boilies.
I have been to so many venues now where they tell you that you must be on a certain boilie to get results. Normally due to the fact that they sell the bait there (which I understand as they want to make extra money) but hand on heart, my own results often prove that a decent well balanced bait that is nothing like the bait being sold is often a better choice. A good bait is a good bait, and I try to look back with an open mind. Attractor baits can work short term as can tigers or sweetcorn but the biggest and more awkward ones to catch always slip up on a decent bait in the end. Welly was dominated by b5 when I went there and even the lads sponsored by other companies were using it. Three of us started on hnv pro and used maybe 2 percent of the volume of the other lads and we had an amazing season with all of the big mirrors slipping up to us.
Why do I think this happens? Well when anything is used to excess it always loses its effectiveness and the greater the pressure, the quicker it happens. Also, big carp need certain minerals and salts which they don't get from a lot of modern baits.
Tuttis In very small amounts can be effective but I found that I generally had poor results if I overdid them (too strong)
I always use small volumes of bait but they are all high protein and rich in minerals yet low in flavours.......and it seems to work everywhere regardless of who is piling in particles or boilies.
In reply to Post #26
Personally I've found sweetcorn & tiger nuts to work over long periods of time and catch some incredible fish not just short term as you suggested, no doubt decent boilies are very effective also.
IMO it's the calibre of angler and how they are fishing which will impact on results regardless at times of baits being used.
Personally I've found sweetcorn & tiger nuts to work over long periods of time and catch some incredible fish not just short term as you suggested, no doubt decent boilies are very effective also.
IMO it's the calibre of angler and how they are fishing which will impact on results regardless at times of baits being used.
In reply to Post #26
Don't get me wrong Gary - the two baits I buy, and the baits i make myself, I'm happy provide carp with everything they need. But if you think of the amount of different baits that go into a lot of day ticket waters is it worth it for occasional short visits? Sensible tactics make more of a difference imo
Totally different with a water that you're able to put some time in on tho.
Don't get me wrong Gary - the two baits I buy, and the baits i make myself, I'm happy provide carp with everything they need. But if you think of the amount of different baits that go into a lot of day ticket waters is it worth it for occasional short visits? Sensible tactics make more of a difference imo
Totally different with a water that you're able to put some time in on tho.
In reply to Post #28
Every bait has some nutrition but I don't believe long campaign succes can only happen with baits that fulfill all carps needs. Had to many great experience with tigers, high carb baits, etc.
This basically due to the fact that your boilie/bait isn't their only feed source.
Nevertheless, white papers have confirmed that carp can be selective towards their feed intake: e.g. when 3 populations of carp were fed with deficient feed (1 population good carbs deficient, the other fat and the last protein.) They selected the bait containing the nutricient they were lacking. This situation would only be valid with a unbalanced feed supply and/or an overstocked lake. In any other situation the baits providing carp the complete essential spectrum of nutrition will not automatically outfish other baits.
Every bait has some nutrition but I don't believe long campaign succes can only happen with baits that fulfill all carps needs. Had to many great experience with tigers, high carb baits, etc.
This basically due to the fact that your boilie/bait isn't their only feed source.
Nevertheless, white papers have confirmed that carp can be selective towards their feed intake: e.g. when 3 populations of carp were fed with deficient feed (1 population good carbs deficient, the other fat and the last protein.) They selected the bait containing the nutricient they were lacking. This situation would only be valid with a unbalanced feed supply and/or an overstocked lake. In any other situation the baits providing carp the complete essential spectrum of nutrition will not automatically outfish other baits.
In reply to Post #28
There's being confident but then there's actually analysing what you've got infront of you., speaking to suppliers and knowing what roughly goes into the bait etc
There's being confident but then there's actually analysing what you've got infront of you., speaking to suppliers and knowing what roughly goes into the bait etc
In reply to Post #29
This basically due to the fact that your boilie/bait isn't their only feed source
After all these years of getting it wrong with bait there is one common factor for me. The fish will decide what it is going to eat, end of
For every water I have fished I have learnt something and that's important. It makes total sense to use the “ultimate” food bait if you are campaign fishing and feeding them, however, I have lost count of the times a numpty rolls up and does a pub chuck with a yellow pop up and rattles a few special ones out in no time at all
I try and use a quality food source, feed the fish and catch them but I have been one dimensional over they years and it has cost me fish because the thought of lobbing a yellow pop up out into the abyss and sitting on my hands does not appeal to me one bit, it's luck fishing, I like to try and stack the odds in my favour
They key point from years of getting it wrong, fish are getting more and more pressured and we need to learn from this. I have been fortunate over they years to fish a few un pressured waters and I can say this, they are relatively easy to catch and soon know what a 20mm boilie is, that's what I use. Start with pressured fish and it changes their feeding habits, big fish have to eat some food to maintain their weight, all those crafty carp not getting caught because they are dealing with our hookbaits, I don't doubt there is an element of getting away with it, have seen it many times but there is also the element of feeding on naturals!
A TOP angler who I know and respect once said to me, they are scared of having a feed in here. I thought, bollox lol,I will show you, he was wrong, I caught loads of fish, some 3 and 4 times but I didn't catch a couple of the special ones, he was right, these fish didn't need boiled bait. Guess what, after looking at all the past catches of them for over the previous 10 - 15 years nearly all of them were opportunist, Fluoro singles. Once talked to one bloke, came on a water and he rattled 3 top fish out in no time at all, bright orange scopex WTF
I know another bloke and I always used to laugh to myself, he had a large yellow van for his trade, he also used yellow pop ups on all 3 rods lol and he catches his fair share of fish. Use to think, the yellow peril pop up man is here, get ready lol
Bait is a key part of the jigsaw and as anglers we can become numb. We need to be adaptable to the water we are fishing at the time and be prepared to change and stop going through the motions because using the ultimate food source is not always the ultimate answer. Notice what is working and understand WHY
This basically due to the fact that your boilie/bait isn't their only feed source
After all these years of getting it wrong with bait there is one common factor for me. The fish will decide what it is going to eat, end of
For every water I have fished I have learnt something and that's important. It makes total sense to use the “ultimate” food bait if you are campaign fishing and feeding them, however, I have lost count of the times a numpty rolls up and does a pub chuck with a yellow pop up and rattles a few special ones out in no time at all
I try and use a quality food source, feed the fish and catch them but I have been one dimensional over they years and it has cost me fish because the thought of lobbing a yellow pop up out into the abyss and sitting on my hands does not appeal to me one bit, it's luck fishing, I like to try and stack the odds in my favour
They key point from years of getting it wrong, fish are getting more and more pressured and we need to learn from this. I have been fortunate over they years to fish a few un pressured waters and I can say this, they are relatively easy to catch and soon know what a 20mm boilie is, that's what I use. Start with pressured fish and it changes their feeding habits, big fish have to eat some food to maintain their weight, all those crafty carp not getting caught because they are dealing with our hookbaits, I don't doubt there is an element of getting away with it, have seen it many times but there is also the element of feeding on naturals!
A TOP angler who I know and respect once said to me, they are scared of having a feed in here. I thought, bollox lol,I will show you, he was wrong, I caught loads of fish, some 3 and 4 times but I didn't catch a couple of the special ones, he was right, these fish didn't need boiled bait. Guess what, after looking at all the past catches of them for over the previous 10 - 15 years nearly all of them were opportunist, Fluoro singles. Once talked to one bloke, came on a water and he rattled 3 top fish out in no time at all, bright orange scopex WTF
I know another bloke and I always used to laugh to myself, he had a large yellow van for his trade, he also used yellow pop ups on all 3 rods lol and he catches his fair share of fish. Use to think, the yellow peril pop up man is here, get ready lol
Bait is a key part of the jigsaw and as anglers we can become numb. We need to be adaptable to the water we are fishing at the time and be prepared to change and stop going through the motions because using the ultimate food source is not always the ultimate answer. Notice what is working and understand WHY
In reply to Post #26
To state that the bigger or harder to catch fish will always be caught on a boiled bait over a nut or corn is a bit of a stretch.
Boilies dominate waters because anglers love to use them. They are convenient, easy to get out into the lake and versatile in how they can be applied. Most of all anglers believe the hype that is peddled on forums, social media or YouTube that boiled baits catch you more fish than lower cost baits like pellet, hemp or corn.
This information is pushed by people who pay their bills from selling the bait. They reward people for sending photos of fish, people see the photos and buy the bait, more people use the bait to catch fish and send the photos.
The whole process is far more effective at sustaining the myth than any magical combination of ingredients in a ball of boiled by-products.
I don't think many people who have actually observed fish feeding would be able to say that a carp would pick up a man made boiled ball over a few grains of corn or a handful of peanuts.
To state that the bigger or harder to catch fish will always be caught on a boiled bait over a nut or corn is a bit of a stretch.
Boilies dominate waters because anglers love to use them. They are convenient, easy to get out into the lake and versatile in how they can be applied. Most of all anglers believe the hype that is peddled on forums, social media or YouTube that boiled baits catch you more fish than lower cost baits like pellet, hemp or corn.
This information is pushed by people who pay their bills from selling the bait. They reward people for sending photos of fish, people see the photos and buy the bait, more people use the bait to catch fish and send the photos.
The whole process is far more effective at sustaining the myth than any magical combination of ingredients in a ball of boiled by-products.
I don't think many people who have actually observed fish feeding would be able to say that a carp would pick up a man made boiled ball over a few grains of corn or a handful of peanuts.
In reply to Post #32
Lot of truth in that
Lot of truth in that
In reply to Post #22
and hemp
and hemp
In reply to Post #32
I have never caught a big carp on a tiger nut, but I have caught plenty on a well made boilie. I understand that you can catch carp on a whole number of different items and I have had enough on plastic corn to realise that
But when I fish a water for a period of time I want to be working towards a final goal and improving my chances of the bigger fish, and that's where I think a decent food bait has a major edge. I have seen the particle revolution hit Oxfordshire and the boilie fishing has been so effective against it. You had a bit of a dig at bait makers there which is aimed at all the boilie manufacturers out there. Let's take a look at bill cottam, Mike willmott, John baker, etc. I think it's fair to say that the amount of huge carp caught on their products is probably ten thousand times more than those caught on a peanut (which I quite like using). A boilie offers something that no particle can replicate and I can avoid all of the others species by using them. I know I sell boilies, but I sell pellets and particles too, and I see what catches most carp over twelve months of the year.
The local ressie near me is a tricky one to fish, the particle brigade have had very few bites in the last 12 months......the lads on a decent boilie have had 90 percent of the stock and repeated so many carp in that time. Why is this?
I have never caught a big carp on a tiger nut, but I have caught plenty on a well made boilie. I understand that you can catch carp on a whole number of different items and I have had enough on plastic corn to realise that
But when I fish a water for a period of time I want to be working towards a final goal and improving my chances of the bigger fish, and that's where I think a decent food bait has a major edge. I have seen the particle revolution hit Oxfordshire and the boilie fishing has been so effective against it. You had a bit of a dig at bait makers there which is aimed at all the boilie manufacturers out there. Let's take a look at bill cottam, Mike willmott, John baker, etc. I think it's fair to say that the amount of huge carp caught on their products is probably ten thousand times more than those caught on a peanut (which I quite like using). A boilie offers something that no particle can replicate and I can avoid all of the others species by using them. I know I sell boilies, but I sell pellets and particles too, and I see what catches most carp over twelve months of the year.
The local ressie near me is a tricky one to fish, the particle brigade have had very few bites in the last 12 months......the lads on a decent boilie have had 90 percent of the stock and repeated so many carp in that time. Why is this?
In reply to Post #35
A guy on my lake last night just said he has had his best winter in 20 odd years... Not using boilies!
A guy on my lake last night just said he has had his best winter in 20 odd years... Not using boilies!
In reply to Post #35
I saw a water ruined by muppets using particle, one lad had a decent result and then every monkey was bucketing it in, loads of it, slowed the fishing right off, virtually killed the boilie fishing and fish captures were very very low
If I use particle it always has a good percentage of what I'm using as a hook bait in it, hole and crushed. I have applied it on some untouched waters and the fish have gone absolutely mental on it, tore all the weed up and reeds, looked like a bomb had gone off
Downside they get preoccupied with it and get a free meal when they want one for me, nothing worse than sat on fish and you can't get a touch
I find it best to fill it in about 4- 5 days before I fish and then fish minimal bait or hookbaits over the spots
I saw a water ruined by muppets using particle, one lad had a decent result and then every monkey was bucketing it in, loads of it, slowed the fishing right off, virtually killed the boilie fishing and fish captures were very very low
If I use particle it always has a good percentage of what I'm using as a hook bait in it, hole and crushed. I have applied it on some untouched waters and the fish have gone absolutely mental on it, tore all the weed up and reeds, looked like a bomb had gone off
Downside they get preoccupied with it and get a free meal when they want one for me, nothing worse than sat on fish and you can't get a touch
I find it best to fill it in about 4- 5 days before I fish and then fish minimal bait or hookbaits over the spots
In reply to Post #36
Maggots ??
Maggots ??
In reply to Post #36
I have had good winters on maggots, zigs, single hookbaits, all of these things will catch carp. The point I am trying to get across is that the sheer numbers of big carp caught across the whole of Europe right now will get caught again and again on a boilie that contains certain elements that sweetcorn and hemp do not!
Pellets came up earlier, well hold on a minute, a pellet is a man made easy to store item that contains the basic nutritional requirements that the Intended species needs to repeatedly eat and prosper, carp love them and gorge on them because............they know they are good for them! A boilie is just one stage further with greater options! I don't want this thread to sound like I'm saying particles are not catchers cos we all know that's not true, but I'm a massive believer that offering the carp attraction and salts or minerals they need but can not easily find on the lakebed, puts me in a better position to catch them in the course of a season. I know that sometimes I should be casting a piece of foam a foot under the surface, or dropping a bag of maggots in front of them. But before and after spawning carp definitely need to replace certain minerals. The nutrition theory has been around a very long time and year on year it works. When I fish I don't ever think that I need to spod a big bed of hemp out to catch loads of carp, I just want to lay the smallest most attractive trap to catch them one at a time and hopefully catch the big buggers! Not everyone thinks like me In fact I have no doubt I am the minority but after keeping carp for so long and watching them feed all year round I know what it is that can make them drop down and feed and also the things that they refuse to eat. A tiger in summer can be brilliant, in winter they are not as effective! A boilie can bridge the gaps that certain other baits cannot.
I have had good winters on maggots, zigs, single hookbaits, all of these things will catch carp. The point I am trying to get across is that the sheer numbers of big carp caught across the whole of Europe right now will get caught again and again on a boilie that contains certain elements that sweetcorn and hemp do not!
Pellets came up earlier, well hold on a minute, a pellet is a man made easy to store item that contains the basic nutritional requirements that the Intended species needs to repeatedly eat and prosper, carp love them and gorge on them because............they know they are good for them! A boilie is just one stage further with greater options! I don't want this thread to sound like I'm saying particles are not catchers cos we all know that's not true, but I'm a massive believer that offering the carp attraction and salts or minerals they need but can not easily find on the lakebed, puts me in a better position to catch them in the course of a season. I know that sometimes I should be casting a piece of foam a foot under the surface, or dropping a bag of maggots in front of them. But before and after spawning carp definitely need to replace certain minerals. The nutrition theory has been around a very long time and year on year it works. When I fish I don't ever think that I need to spod a big bed of hemp out to catch loads of carp, I just want to lay the smallest most attractive trap to catch them one at a time and hopefully catch the big buggers! Not everyone thinks like me In fact I have no doubt I am the minority but after keeping carp for so long and watching them feed all year round I know what it is that can make them drop down and feed and also the things that they refuse to eat. A tiger in summer can be brilliant, in winter they are not as effective! A boilie can bridge the gaps that certain other baits cannot.
In reply to Post #39
Regarding the fact that big carp are getting caught more on boilies than anything else is statistical the only logical outcome. How many anglers solely fish boilies? How many of all use the occasional particles but use boilies as hookbaits? And how many use particles as hookbaits more often than they use boilies?
I think if you fill in these number is just pure logic more carp are caught on boilies and most big carp are caught on boilies.
Regarding the fact that big carp are getting caught more on boilies than anything else is statistical the only logical outcome. How many anglers solely fish boilies? How many of all use the occasional particles but use boilies as hookbaits? And how many use particles as hookbaits more often than they use boilies?
I think if you fill in these number is just pure logic more carp are caught on boilies and most big carp are caught on boilies.
In reply to Post #40
Fair point!
Boilies are a convenient hookbait, to fish over particles or on their own more so as a hookbait, than probably all particles, with the exception of tigers, which may be banned on some waters.
Because of that boilies do account for most fish. They can also be left in place for an 'extended' period of time.
I must admit that I have fished with just particles on a few waters, sweetcorn or maize over Vitalin, where boilies were ignored, but that is a rare one.
I have also fished with boilies alone as using particles attracted too many bream and tench. Carp would feed on just boilies and bream and tench would not. Equally I have piled in the particles and fished boilie over the top.
Fair point!
Boilies are a convenient hookbait, to fish over particles or on their own more so as a hookbait, than probably all particles, with the exception of tigers, which may be banned on some waters.
Because of that boilies do account for most fish. They can also be left in place for an 'extended' period of time.
I must admit that I have fished with just particles on a few waters, sweetcorn or maize over Vitalin, where boilies were ignored, but that is a rare one.
I have also fished with boilies alone as using particles attracted too many bream and tench. Carp would feed on just boilies and bream and tench would not. Equally I have piled in the particles and fished boilie over the top.
In reply to Post #41
Carp know whats good for them , just got to train them
Carp know whats good for them , just got to train them
Do we believe carp can differentiate between baits, particularly fishmeals as they all contain the same ingredients, I've read statements such as " the carp were on the lookout for a particular brand ignoring all others", personally i can't accept this, what are other peoples experience on this
In reply to Post #43
100 percent yes!
I have seen several waters dominated by certain boilies and not because they were used more than another bait. People seem to think it's a volume thing (put loads out and get them on it) but I don't think at all. As I have said on here recently, our local fishery is literately dominated by one bait applied by two lads and I bet they haven't used half the amount of some of the others. The bait they chose has such a good record there (and I think that it's because it's high In salt and calcium and protein) and I reckon they will be top rods again this year.
For whatever reason that bait is effective there! But a good bait is a good bait in my mind!
100 percent yes!
I have seen several waters dominated by certain boilies and not because they were used more than another bait. People seem to think it's a volume thing (put loads out and get them on it) but I don't think at all. As I have said on here recently, our local fishery is literately dominated by one bait applied by two lads and I bet they haven't used half the amount of some of the others. The bait they chose has such a good record there (and I think that it's because it's high In salt and calcium and protein) and I reckon they will be top rods again this year.
For whatever reason that bait is effective there! But a good bait is a good bait in my mind!
In reply to Post #43
Yes!
On Earith I was fishing an homemade version of Trigga, prebaiting with around 2 kilos of boilies a week. Other baits were ignored, including hi-attract hi-vis pop-ups. Even the standard Trigga did not produce as many fish.
Taverham Mills was dominated at one time by New Concepts Mariner mix, to the point that other boilies would not catch. It was only when Brian Hewitt sold New Concepts and moved that other baits started to catch.
Yes!
On Earith I was fishing an homemade version of Trigga, prebaiting with around 2 kilos of boilies a week. Other baits were ignored, including hi-attract hi-vis pop-ups. Even the standard Trigga did not produce as many fish.
Taverham Mills was dominated at one time by New Concepts Mariner mix, to the point that other boilies would not catch. It was only when Brian Hewitt sold New Concepts and moved that other baits started to catch.
In reply to Post #43
When carp come across bait I believe that they are more likely to feed and feeder harder and so become more catchable on some baits rather than others. This includes baits that at first look are very similar. If that's not true why aren't we all using the same bait, if making your own why include often expensive ingredients to make your bait the one they will be more enthusiastic for.
But as for carp searching our lakes for their favourite boilies and ignoring all others, my experience suggests that's just fantasy. They might ignore boilies and only feed when they come across tigers or maggots but that's not quite the same thing, if they are feeding on boilies on a lake where they see lots of them they will at least try a few if they find them in an area they feed and at a time they feed. If they aren't that keen on the taste they will move on quickly but if they really like them they will eat every one, and you will catch them.
When carp come across bait I believe that they are more likely to feed and feeder harder and so become more catchable on some baits rather than others. This includes baits that at first look are very similar. If that's not true why aren't we all using the same bait, if making your own why include often expensive ingredients to make your bait the one they will be more enthusiastic for.
But as for carp searching our lakes for their favourite boilies and ignoring all others, my experience suggests that's just fantasy. They might ignore boilies and only feed when they come across tigers or maggots but that's not quite the same thing, if they are feeding on boilies on a lake where they see lots of them they will at least try a few if they find them in an area they feed and at a time they feed. If they aren't that keen on the taste they will move on quickly but if they really like them they will eat every one, and you will catch them.
In reply to Post #44
Interesting, was it a conscious effort to make the bait high in salt, calcium and protein, were they able to ascertain a deficiency in the carps diet?
Interesting, was it a conscious effort to make the bait high in salt, calcium and protein, were they able to ascertain a deficiency in the carps diet?
In reply to Post #47
No not at all, the lads just picked a bait that we had used there before and used it again. The lake is ridiculously rich in naturals and always has been, but for some reason that one bait has always been very effective there. Very hard to explain or understand why but very noticeable.
No not at all, the lads just picked a bait that we had used there before and used it again. The lake is ridiculously rich in naturals and always has been, but for some reason that one bait has always been very effective there. Very hard to explain or understand why but very noticeable.
In reply to Post #48
There are some variables that you should take in consideration.
Type of bottom, pH of water, what ingredients is the mix containing, etc.
In addition, I've noticed that one bait with the inclusion of one specific ingredient can alter the catch rate and/or the common-mirror ratio.
E.g I fished extensively a certain lake for a period of 10 years.
And I've found that the addition of a poultry liquid on my fishmeal baits yielded to more commons than the use of aminol.
All other ingredient remained the same.
Also, (same water) I've noticed that the addition of sugars and sweeteners led to catching another part of the population.
There are some variables that you should take in consideration.
Type of bottom, pH of water, what ingredients is the mix containing, etc.
In addition, I've noticed that one bait with the inclusion of one specific ingredient can alter the catch rate and/or the common-mirror ratio.
E.g I fished extensively a certain lake for a period of 10 years.
And I've found that the addition of a poultry liquid on my fishmeal baits yielded to more commons than the use of aminol.
All other ingredient remained the same.
Also, (same water) I've noticed that the addition of sugars and sweeteners led to catching another part of the population.
In reply to Post #49
Poultry liquid?
Poultry liquid?
In reply to Post #50
Yes, something I could get hold on for 2 years and then it was not available any more.
It was a liquid hydrolysate of poultry meal.
Yes, something I could get hold on for 2 years and then it was not available any more.
It was a liquid hydrolysate of poultry meal.
In reply to Post #51
So a hydrolysate made from dried poultry meal?
I ask because I fiddle with enzymes and making it from meals is more appealing than using fresh chicken.
So a hydrolysate made from dried poultry meal?
I ask because I fiddle with enzymes and making it from meals is more appealing than using fresh chicken.
In reply to Post #52
theres a very simple answer to this
what do cyprinoids require to function?
theres a very simple answer to this
what do cyprinoids require to function?
In reply to Post #52
Maybe I expressed me wrong.
Since I didn't know the production process but the supplier told me that it's a liquid hydrolysate made of same stuff as poultry meal but the hydrolyzed and in liquid form.
Maybe I expressed me wrong.
Since I didn't know the production process but the supplier told me that it's a liquid hydrolysate made of same stuff as poultry meal but the hydrolyzed and in liquid form.
In reply to Post #54
Ok, thanks. English is not my native language so the misunderstanding may be on my side.
Ok, thanks. English is not my native language so the misunderstanding may be on my side.
In reply to Post #53
Is your conclusion ending with amino acids?
If so I believe there is a lot more to various hydrolysates than AAs alone.
Is your conclusion ending with amino acids?
If so I believe there is a lot more to various hydrolysates than AAs alone.
In reply to Post #56
No, it's not.
Just that some additives, products can influence what group/part of the population you're catching
No, it's not.
Just that some additives, products can influence what group/part of the population you're catching
In reply to Post #57
Very true but not commonly known in my view
Very true but not commonly known in my view
In reply to Post #57
My reply was to Frenzy.
Very interesting with how different ingredients appeal to different fish.
In tank testing taste preferences (single molecules) a rather large proportion of the fish, like 5-10% seem to have different preferences to the rest.
These was usually removed from the project and replaced.
My reply was to Frenzy.
Very interesting with how different ingredients appeal to different fish.
In tank testing taste preferences (single molecules) a rather large proportion of the fish, like 5-10% seem to have different preferences to the rest.
These was usually removed from the project and replaced.
Reading ALL pages