Why boil boilers instead of baking them, you would less much less ingredients and therefore make them better.

In reply to Post #1
Because then they would be called 'bakies', which just sounds daft.

In reply to Post #1
Because they will float....

In reply to Post #3
Then call them boilies but baked lol, and no they won't float, floating will be down to the density and transparency of ingredients used ie oranges and apples float but if you put holes in them they will sink.

In reply to Post #4
I can assure you that baits that have been boiled sink, and you bake exactly the same baits and they float

In reply to Post #1
baking removes moisture from the object.

boiling baits its just to greater a skin to leave a soft centre.

and they will float.....

In reply to Post #6
Hmmmm but yous are forgetting one major thing, density and total weight.

Newton's law would strongly disagree.

In reply to Post #6
Also baking doesn't typically (at low heat) remove a lot of moisture. Ie slow cooker meat vs high short durations of same meat and variables.

In reply to Post #7
Newton or not, baking boilies makes the float usually.

In reply to Post #8
you cant use a slow cooker as an example.
its in an environment with steam from the cooking.
take a biscuit for example due to a similarity of ingredients. if you drop that in a cold glass of milk it will float.

also if you already have the counter to all arguments against boiling bait why bother asking the question?
roll your base mix and wack it in the oven. Id put my house on a boiled bait with a soft paste centre out catching it.

In reply to Post #10
The question is to find new reasons ie research.

I can make a boilie float or sink, most on here can aswell.

The difference is in the ingredients ie Density, Transparency.

Some ingredients take on more water others don't, so boiling them will make them sink and baking them will mean they float, but this doesn't mean baking all boilie recipes will make them float.

It is to do with density and transparency of ingredients.

A bait buff will understand.

In reply to Post #11
Lol

In reply to Post #11
are you a bait buff?
I strongly believe you sir are not going to win any arguments on this topic.

there is a reason we have been boiling bait for the past 50 years and not baking them.

In reply to Post #12
I'm sorry if I sounded abit ??? I just feel that there is a much better alternative to boiling especially from a nutritional and attractive point of view.

If you lose say 30% from boiling and only 5% from baking and they let's just say for this Hypothetical scenario both float if needed or sink if needed, then why don't people or companies do this instead of boiling?

Is it to reduce time ?

In reply to Post #13
What is that reason ? Please explain

In reply to Post #14
Forget the science. Its irrelevant when compared to results. If baking were the way to go then bait companies would have gone that way, after all I'd hazard a guess that large scale baking would be easier than boiling?!
When you have a mix that sinks when boiled, it usually floats when baked. To alter that would mean altering the mix, which defeats the object. Plus as far as nutrition goes, the carp isn't overly efficient at digesting food, so they end up crapping a lot of it out the back of them already, so what is adding more actually going to achieve, other than them just having a higher nutritional crap?

In reply to Post #16
Forget the science ?

The point being more nutritionally dense therefore better detection from the carps end, better growth rates, healthy fish that live longer.

Also if it's from a cost perspective then you are able to use less ingredients to get the same desired effect.

In reply to Post #16
Also I think many haven't given it a go to get the results because they are under some delusional beliefs/ myths that it can't be done.

Also being inventive is creating newer better baits for the future, or at least the idea.

Think of it like this if one ingredient can be detected for 100 minutes in the water and tha bait is boiled, then one baked will be detected for longer

In reply to Post #17
Yes forget the science. Your points don't really make sense imo, after all you don't govern everything the fish eat, do you? Breeding had more to do with longevity than what's in some boilies they eat.

In reply to Post #1
you bake your baits and cath regularly on them?

In reply to Post #18
id get in touch with Mr Nash mate.

you're obviously well versed in bait development.

talking that much ***** you're going to get skid marks on your teeth.

In reply to Post #21
No need to be like that, I'm sorry if you don't understand or passed physics.

In reply to Post #22
not being like anything.

3 people on this thread helped me with my own bait rolling. you're passing off their knowledge like its worthless.

I was having problems with my own bait and they helped me out. now I'm happy with my own mix and catching.
now they are telling you that baking bait is not as good as boiling it and you're just dismissing it because you think the latter.

if anyone is being ''like that'' it is you sir.

In reply to Post #22
The only way to avoid floating baits (that I can think of) would be to replace loads of the highly nutritional ingredients with heavy fillers such as oyster shell and lime stone flour. I can't see how that would benefit the bait?

In reply to Post #23
So your getting worked up because I disagree with others who have helped you ? That's very childish.

In reply to Post #24
Most hnv ingredients are dense and won't suffer but I like the idea of adding small particles to a recipe.

Maybe crushed hemp or crushed nuts/seeds.

In reply to Post #7
Can you leave Newton out of this. He was a scientist and you are apparently not.

In reply to Post #27
Apparently not? According to who ?

Also the reason I mentioned him is because of his laws which considered fact until proven otherwise.

I'm stating facts against opinions, if everyone was to leave facts out of a discussion because they aren't the individuals who discovered them, then where would that leave us? Probably dead lol

What an interesting topic. With 'standard' base mixes and the answer is... high heat, bake for a short time and they float. Lower the heat and you have to bake for longer....only some will float. Add some fillers and they can be made to sink, but the fillers are all low nutritional value. What have you gained?

I did make some pellets this way (back in the 00's) but to unlock the nutrition when baking requires a very different mix to a boilie and I only had so many hours in the day to try this method. I had some success but no better than a boilie.

Normally fish pellets are effectively steamed. if baking worked then the aquafeed industry would switch to it as its safer and easy to do on an industrial scale.

Boil or steam work for the low volumes that we fisherman use (yes even the likes of nashbait are 'low' volume at 30+ tons a week) compared to the aquafeed industry.

Baking is very hit and miss, requires a lot of work to even start to get right and actually takes a long time if doing decent size batches. A home oven is useless for anything more than a kg at a time.

Well....been on the forum for about 4 hours and already putting boxing gloves on about the properties of boilie mixes and questioning why boilies aren't baked- loads of reasons for that- but asking questions about baitworks in another thread. I haven't used them but they have a good reputation. To the best of my knowledge they are boiled though...... so probably not what you're looking for?

I have a saying. I like to be proved wrong and It looks like you are a wind up merchant. So far you're not doing a lot to prove that assumption wrong.....

In reply to Post #29
get ready peter.

hes about to tell you why you are wrong

In reply to Post #31
looks like talent to me... maybe even for talent show

In reply to Post #29
Thank you for your reply, I was thinking that if someone could work out through a percentage (nutrition needed) then look at ingredients and then look through their density and thus come up with base mix.

I think it would be easier to find alternative ingredients to your standard mix that have the same value but maybe in a different state (liquid, powder, micronised etc)which could acquire the desired affect, so you would have the same bait but have the the benefits of losing less because none of the ingredients are being bombarded with water molecules.


Your thoughts?

In reply to Post #32
hes more confused than a goat on AstroTurf.

I WaNt BaKeD bAiTs - anyone tried baitworks?

clown

In reply to Post #34
I never said I wanted baked now but was discussing the pros and cons aswell as the science behind the process and the reasons why people/companies don't use them.

Please read more carefully and stop trying to one up its pathetic.

And to the other few trying to stir the pot, grow up and have some respect and understanding to how discussions work, your meant to have opposing opinions this is where the research and practice comes in to benefit the overall development of said topic.

I'm playing nice but already I'm thinking of deleting this thread in case I just get into a pointless argument with individuals who can't conduct themselves properly in a DISCUSSION!!!

In reply to Post #31
Also if someone tells you and proves you are wrong don't be mad or upset, be happy because you have just learnt something and we have all been wrong from time to time it's called learning it's great.

In reply to Post #33
You have made an assumption that by baking you will be' losing less'. I am not sure why you assume this.

You also assume that ingredients being 'bombarded with water molecules' is a bad thing. Ask yourself how carp 'smell' and 'taste' (to anthropomorphise a carps senses) in water, what carries these 'triggers'. Without a (or a very low) water content baits are more or less 'odorless' and 'tasteless' to carp until they have taken on water....why start with a dry bait

I tried baking, it didn't give me a better catch rate and was by no means easy to do. Nothing has changed in my view in the last 10+ years since trying it.

I know what core temperatures my baits get to when boiled, steamed and baked. I have measured them at different sizes to establish this (yes i'ma geek). Honestly boiling is the way to go, steaming follows second and baking a distant third (unless you want a burnt surface and 'raw' inside). Boiling is a gently way to give a tough skin to keep smaller fish away and helps start to break down certain nutrients inside the bait (its called denaturing, and despite the writings of many 'bait buffs' is not always a bad thing ) which makes it easy/quicker to digest.

The ONLY downside to boiling is loss of some solubles and vitamins but this is all taken into account when making the bait by adding higher levels of these in the basemix to start off with

In reply to Post #28
Which particular law or laws are you referring to. Perhaps you might want to refer to Archimedes and his principle as you are discussing sinking and floating. I fear you may be on a difficult path.

In reply to Post #38
there are quite a few baits out there that are half-baked lol

Years ago bottom baits were made into pop ups by either microwaving them or baking them

In reply to Post #39

In reply to Post #37
I haven't made an assumption it is fact that direct heat(suspended in boiling water) to flesh/ingredients will denature the proteins/ amino acids more than non direct heat(oven). Imagine sitting round a fire as opposed to being in it. The heat is the same, both are able to burn you l but the lesser is not as harsh.

Also because the bait is in water it will soak up water and push out some of the ingredients even more so because it is going from cold to hot.

I personally think that in the future boiling baits will become less used and there is money to be made with better baits and bigger, better fish.

In reply to Post #38
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Newton%27s_law_of_universal_gravitation

In reply to Post #40
Made into pop ups by microwave or baking them ? I actually tried this and it is false, it all depends on the ingredients and cooking process. More so the ingredients.

In reply to Post #42
Sorry but your 'facts' are just wrong and your hypothesis is full of flaws and wild assumptions despite you saying otherwise.

Boiling water at sea level is 100°C. That is a fact. If you think baking in an oven puts less heat energy into a bait and exposes it to lower temperatures then can I have some of what you are smoking

I am not going to keep repeating what I have already said other than when measured, with calibrated tools, boiling is the best way to skin and cook the inside of a bait By best I mean quickest, most repeatable and with minimum over heating. That doesn't mean you can't make a good baked bait but better than boiling....my time trying it would suggest not.

Now find me scientific evidence that breaking down proteins into shorter chains of amino acids is a bad thing for attraction and digestion? 'Bait Buffs' have repeated this saying for decades and its simple not backed up by ANY fact I have been able to find or read in my studies, in fact 'the facts' show the complete opposite

Final word on this thread now as I am bored with your ramblings. I am not going to tell you what I do for a living other than I do it well. For the last 18+ years I have run environmental test chambers from -40°C to +350°C looking at the effects on both liquids and many solids to these heats when the liquids and solids are put together. Its my business and I own all the tools to do this and yes I do use these tools at weekends for 'fun' i.e. stuff for my hobbies

You still think my facts are flawed

In reply to Post #45
man somebody already snatched www.bakebaits-international.com and co.uk must be those future millionaires.

In reply to Post #44
It is not false. Also, if you are such a bait buff, why is it you have another thread enquiring about buying bait from a company? Seems odd for someone who thinks they have so much knowledge.

In reply to Post #45
Please re-read what I have written as you are confused.

I said the temperature kept the same not different? You keep contradicting yourself.

Ps I've studied advanced physics at Brighton university so no I'm not mistaken.

In reply to Post #47
Because I'm still working out the kinks

In reply to Post #48
>Ps I've studied advanced physics at Brighton university so no I'm not mistaken.
and I studied Theoretical Physics (BSc) at Canterbury but this has zero to do with it

on the subject of baked baits......I am saying no more

In reply to Post #49
So you don't really know about rolling bait and yet you come on here and tell people with decades of experience rolling bait that they are wrong? Priceless....

In reply to Post #51
i really wish there was an emoji for eating popcorn...
I'm shaking with anticipation for the next snippet of ''the baked baits saga''

skid marks on teeth comes to mind once again....

In reply to Post #52
There's no helping some people.....

In reply to Post #53
well there is, you can help them by offering advice and help from fonts of knowledge such as yourself and pete (who both have kindly helped me over the past month) only to say you are wrong with no evidence to back up their claims.

In reply to Post #54
That's just it, evidence. Theory is just that, theory. In practice its a very different story as you well know

In reply to Post #50
Doesn't this topic fall more towards chemistry?

Its a wind up thread but I'll ask a question anyway, wouldn't the core of the bait reach a much higher temperature through baking? Steaming also sounds good on paper but my baits were cooked through rather than just skinning over

My bait also doubled in size and filled with air pockets when making floater cake in the oven with exactly the same mix

In reply to Post #56
Some companies do actually steam their baits already. Out of the bag you wouldn't tell the difference between steamed and boiled with the ones that I've seen

In reply to Post #57
Maybe my mix wasn't suitable or the method wrong, but by the time they felt firm enough to stick the core was pretty firm rather than still raw paste, it also took longer than boiling so I gave up with it after a couple of test batches

In reply to Post #58
Maybe different using commercial sized steamers too at a guess? There's a company local to me that steams, it's quite an impressive setup they have, and their baits are very good and catch a lot of fish. Not actually played around with doing it with my baits. If it ain't broke and all that..

In reply to Post #59
https://www.oreilly.com/library/view/cooking-for-geeks/9781449389543/ch04.html

In reply to Post #59
When I was making my bait there was a bit of fuss with one company marketing 'steamies' heavily, so I gave it a try in the mrs vegetable steamer I think a lot of people tried it and it didn't really skin the baits but cooked them through, which went against the idea of lower heat affecting the bait less.

Experimenting was a big part of the draw of making my own bait, once I had a mix I was confident in that rolled well I realised I was only saving about a pound per kilo before I factored my own time in, so really it was more expensive than a quality bait with a proven track record.

In reply to Post #60
Thank you for that, not really sure what you think I'm going to do with it though. I'm perfectly happy boiling my baits, just like I have since 1989 when I rolled my first lot. Experience will beat theory(science) for me every time

We've had boilies since when, late 70s? They worked from the off and still work. They work for large companies and us home rollers alike, they have stood the test of time.

Now I could believe that a large producer might invest in an oven capable of baking baits and might have space to locate it but a home roller, errh, don't think so, my missus would divorce me if I used the kitchen oven for baking my baits and I'm not thinking of buying one for the shed anytime soon.

Boiling works, it's convenient because it can be done anywhere and it's inexpensive, nobody in their right mind could suggest otherwise.

In reply to Post #1


Some absolute tripe being spouted in this thread


" Boiling relies on convection, Baking relies on radiation as a means to transfer its energy" the efficiency of both can vary widely, but fundamentally its the transfer of energy from heat to boilie which differs/

The data is out there if you spend the time to research it on the web. My personal opinion on bait (and I have very limited knowledge on bait making):- If I was a home roller I would boil, if I was producing large quantities in a industrial way I would use steaming. Baking would be my last choice - it costs a lot to heat air when baking

In reply to Post #64
Bake a potato or boil a potato. Look what finishes first and at a lower temperature.
Case closed?

I just use paste 😊

In reply to Post #64
Cheers and perhaps it's just cheaper and easier to boil them and it's tried and tested so they have stuck with that.

In reply to Post #65
Look at what finishes first - are they in a race?

how do you define finish? internal temperature, remaining moisture, remaining dry matter, cell structure, carbohydrate structure, startch leaching?

Think you need to define what you want from your end product before saying what the best way to heat treat it

In reply to Post #64
Some absolute tripe being spouted in this thread

You sure, can't see anybody from the non carp section

Something that has always interested me though, how much so called food baits can denature, precisely calculated mixes, boiled, or cooked lol, air dryed, frozen, sometimes for extended periods and defrosted before being air dryed again in some cases

In reply to Post #68
And why is denaturing a bad thing? (I keep saying this and have been for years)

To quote Tamberly Powell, M.S., R.D on nutrition " Once proteins are denatured or uncoiled, then enzymes have an easier time facilitating the breakdown of proteins through enzymatic digestion. Enzymatic digestion breaks the protein into smaller peptide chains and ultimately down into single amino acids, which are absorbed into the blood."

They are talking about human digestion which is a little different to fish but the principles of releasing the AA by denaturing allowing better digestion (and detection ) still holds true to our fishy friends

A balanced protein base will break down into a balanced AA mix

In reply to Post #69
Agree about the breakdown. I would love to see some test analysis though from fresh rolled baits that had followed that process if only to put my mind at rest

Now after all that if the AA profile is still very good that's brilliant. I suppose the degradation of the bait regenerates them in a way as they degrade, even after all the above

In reply to Post #56
With any cooking process (or scalding process) its a very simple equation of contact time verses temperature.....the hotter the temperature the less contact time for sealing. The difference with baking to boiling is that the moisture (read that any liquids) would be taken from the bait through baking however boiling would take significantly less out of the bait simply because the transfer medium from Water to air is very easy but liquid to water isn't as there more of an equilibrium.

Steaming (and boiling) are completely different to baking as the high humidity of the steam (and saturated boiling water) inhibits the enthalpy effect on the bait whereas the dry heat of baking increases enthalpy effect and actually 'draws' the moisture out.

In all 3 scenarios you would lose far more liquid additives out of the bait through baking than the other 2 even if all were carried out at the same temperature.

In a nutshell, I am completely with Smurf on this one.

In reply to Post #69
When you denature protein it loses some of its amino acids, also since aminos acids are absorbed in the intestines there better absorbed with less “damage” that's why it's beneficial to take enzyme tablets or acidic foods along with protein to aid in digestion and absorption.

I'm pretty sure carp are carnivores which would mean there system is best suited to digestion raw flesh which means no denatured at all because there is no cooking process.

This would also aid (I assume) in detection due to it being more natural ie raw if that makes sense.

In reply to Post #72
I'm pretty sure carp are carnivores which would mean there system is best suited to digestion raw flesh which means no denatured at all because there is no cooking process.

I would imagine that the whole process of denaturing the proteins and the Holy grail of baitmakers sourcing enzymes to faciltate the breaking down of specific peptide chains are done with the main purpose of giving 'their system' a benficial, helping hand...

In reply to Post #44
Yup
I found fish meals didn't Often turn into pop ups either when microwaved lol

In reply to Post #73
You do have a point and I agree. I guess it depends on whether your looking at it from a natural approach or a possible more Optimum approach.

If carp can detect amino acids in the water, the real question is can they detect denatured amino acids or the denaturing of them.

In reply to Post #72
Carp are omnivores, they eat anything and everything. They are a highly aggressive, dominant species in most habitats and are regarded as pests in many parts of the world. They cause havoc in aquatic environments by eating everything out of house and home as well as by eating the eggs, fry, larvae and adults of pretty much everything else. They also convert food into carp very efficiently which is why they are a big business table fish in many parts of the world.

Stick a bit of bread, Luncheon meat or sweet corn on, or if you need to cast or beat nuisances stick a decent mainstream boilie on. You'll catch a lot of fish.

If bait making races your motor, enjoy. I do think you might be overthinking it a touch.

In reply to Post #72
Sorry but you haven't a clue. You do not 'lose some of its amino acids' when protein is denatured. A protein is a chain of AA. When you denature proteins you break some of these bonds and the chain unravels a bit. If it was a functional protein such as trypsin then it will no longer function.

When a carp digests proteins it uses enzymes to break down the long chain proteins into smaller chains which it can then adsorb.

Carp do not have a stomach..... But if they did guess what the acids do to help digestion.... They denature the proteins

What happens if you hydrolyse a protein into a hydrolysate (which carp love, very attractive and they scream food to there senses)? You are denaturing the proteins

By using heat denaturing you are giving the carps digestive system a helping hand so to speak

The old saying that denatured proteins are 'bad' in baits is just incorrect. I did not make this discovery it's published findings.

My 11 year old knows carp are omnivores

In reply to Post #77
You learn something new every day, thanks.

In reply to Post #71
Agreed

You also have to take pressure into account as it can have a significant impact, but most likely not in a home rolling environment.