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High protein milk bait (58 posts / 13,287 views)
essesxandy essesxandy
Posts: 3,215
Post #1 1 Jan 2025 12:55
0
A little while ago I got chatting to a guy, clearly a pretty successful big fish angler and we ended up talking about bait. He said that his bait is made up of just casein, calcium caseinate and just enough birdfood to help with rolling. Oh and just one old skool flavour. He said he believes that carp just love protein and that's why he's successful.
I'm sure he's also a good angler as well though.
Anyone have any thoughts on such a simple high protein bait?
mark1009
Posts: 4,745
Post #2 1 Jan 2025 14:03
0
In reply to Post #1
If it contains a bird food it won't be simple, protein content above about 35% is just wasted. Carp like the taste of milk proteins, calcium caseinate is a good ingredient, so im not surprised it's a good bait. Not the cheapest nowadays though, probably why it's used less.
dickweed dickweed
Posts: 1,268
Post #3 1 Jan 2025 18:10
0
If it's a pure milk and you roll yourself you are looking at around 15 quid a kilo rolled.

20 years ago when I did a winter with a high protein mix it's was about 6 quid a kilo made.

From memory.

Casein
Calcium cassinate
Lactalbumin
Egg albumen

Rich worth blue cheese flavour.
Nutrabaits garlic oil.
essesxandy essesxandy
Posts: 3,215
Post #4 3 Jan 2025 09:11
0
In reply to Post #2
He is well aware that from a nutritional point of view his bait is neither complete or the protein content necessary, he's just convinced that the carp are attracted to and love eating his extremely high protein milk based bait.
mark1009
Posts: 4,745
Post #5 3 Jan 2025 10:23
1
In reply to Post #4
I wouldn't disagree with that.
55s 55s
Posts: 713
Post #6 3 Jan 2025 11:30
2
In reply to Post #4
I am with him 100%.

i recently put together about a kilo of what i believed was a 'super bait' based on old school Milk proteins and new wave attraction powders, liquids etc. Using baby food milk proteins and the like. It rolled like a pig, but given small quantity it was do-able.

Using very little bait, I have caught on the three sessions I have fished with it, using no more than about 100 baits across the sessions. Previously I had blanked on a fairly 'OK' water that had decided to go granite for all members. Was it the bait? I'm not sure, but it seemed spooky and results whilst not conclusive suggest that on the sessions I fished they were not after food, but easy sweets in low quantities that satisfied something.

I did some very basic maths and in the way I purchased ingredients it would be fortunes to put together and even worse to roll mechanically. I don't think any angler would be prepared for the huge increase in price or would trust any roller to put together the attractor package in he detail needed.

Some of the ingredients we now have access to from other avenues (health and body building etc.) are unbelievable.
Andy__C Andy__C
Posts: 1,867
Post #7 4 Jan 2025 10:36
0
In reply to Post #6
Nice. I've promised myself to have a crack at high milks mix this year, picked up some decent priced bits, hydros and carbs etc in some of the fitness site sales over the hols.

What % solubles do you think you've topped out at for gunning and handling and break down levels?

Messing around on the spreadsheets it's easy to get to crazy looking soluble levels with the high milk blends and the stickiness of some of the hydros when wet.
Monkeypox
Posts: 440
Post #8 4 Jan 2025 15:50
1
In reply to Post #1
There is a very good high protein milk bait in the Carp strikes back.
JamieH
Posts: 318
Post #9 4 Jan 2025 16:36
1
In reply to Post #8
I believe this is the one that you are alluding too -

2oz x Lactalbumin
2oz x Caseinate (Sodium or Calcium)
2oz x Soya Isolate
4oz x Casein
1/2oz x Vitrex
mark1009
Posts: 4,745
Post #10 4 Jan 2025 18:43
1
In reply to Post #9
I used this mix after reading the book about 1984/5 dyed red, and flavoured with ritchworth pineapple flavour and sweetener. Best Roach bait I've ever used.
chrispfox chrispfox
Posts: 600
Post #11 4 Jan 2025 20:06
1
In reply to Post #7
I played about with a high milk bait a while back and had a few chats with John Baker about it as well. I can't find the exact recipe that I ended up with but here's what I think it was:

200g Acid Casein, 200g Rennet Casein, 150g WPC, 150g Calcium Caseinate, 100g Soya Flour, 100g Semolina, 50g Wheatgerm and 50g Brocacel

Honestly, I think I didn't give it a good enough go or apply it properly. Perhaps at some point I'll go back to it...
Andy__C Andy__C
Posts: 1,867
Post #12 4 Jan 2025 20:54
0
In reply to Post #11
Thanks for sharing Chris.

Thats not a million miles away from what I've got on paper. I'm going to add in some hydrolysed milk proteins too - adjusting levels of others and i was considering, depending on how it rolled, some CLO/nut.

chrispfox chrispfox
Posts: 600
Post #13 4 Jan 2025 21:38
0
In reply to Post #12
Yeah even since then the hydrolysed milks are a bit of a game changer. If I were to do it again, I'd just get some of Sam Barley's stuff from Optibaits. He knows his stuff with milks. Prob a better mix than I could do and at a not too bad price. If I ever get my barbel head on again I'll definitely be back on the milks.
55s 55s
Posts: 713
Post #14 6 Jan 2025 13:23
1
In reply to Post #7
The firmness of mine was the issue and I believe the binding properties I used in the baby milks and body building powder along with eggs meant it could only be hand rolled really. Hydros I completely stayed away from due to not understanding or trusting longer term storage and stability. I purchased some brilliant hydro direct and fresh from producer but found that the month old product (even stored properly) was nothing like the what it was.

The thing with using milks and expensive attractor packages is that I am much more careful that something amiss can ruin an expensive and laborious process!
whataclonker whataclonker
Posts: 365
Post #15 6 Jan 2025 17:02
1
I listened to a podcast with Shaun Harrison earlier today.

He was telling a story about how he was developing a high protein milk bait years ago. He said that as he was getting the bait closer to where he wanted it, he noticed that his catch rates dropped. It wasn't until he started reducing the protein content that his catch rate picked up again.

The fish were "fuller" for longer on the high protein which then obviously affects how often they feed. He also mentioned that carp can't utilise proteins over the 40% mark.

I'm not as knowledgeable as you chaps but maybe that's some food for thought?


Baitman Baitman
Posts: 5,266
Post #16 6 Jan 2025 17:09
0
In reply to Post #14
I have never dabbled with a milky bait, but I remember many of the fans (back in the day) mentioned better results cutting the hi-nu-val 50/50 with the yellow birdy mix.
JamieNow JamieNow
Posts: 7,471
Post #17 6 Jan 2025 21:10
0
In reply to Post #15
definitely something that is affected by water temps too.

the colder it is, the less protein they need & whilst they will seek out higher protein baits, they won't need to eat as many of them - as has been mentioned - less is more when the temps drop.

frothey frothey
Posts: 3,580
Post #18 6 Jan 2025 21:39
0
In reply to Post #17
Use it as a paste or wrap....
whataclonker whataclonker
Posts: 365
Post #19 6 Jan 2025 22:22
0
Deffo affected by water temps also I agree.
MJTee
Posts: 53
Post #20 7 Jan 2025 17:06
4
My current base mix (since the mid-90's) is as follows :-

Rennet Casein. 500g
Acid Casein. 500g
Calcium Caseinate. 1000g
Lamlac. 1000g
WPC 80. 500g
Nectarblend. 2000g
PTX. 1000ge S
CLO. 1000g
Robin Red. 2000g
Liver Powder, Bovine. 500g


To each 500g of base I add 5g of garlic powder - use 350g of egg (or close to) , add 20 ml Sunflower Oil and 3 drops Garlic EA. Normally roll as 12mm , 45 second boil. Nicely skinned , soft-centred.

Has caught everywhere I've taken it , even in the depths of winter - protein content is around 38% or so
whataclonker whataclonker
Posts: 365
Post #21 7 Jan 2025 18:06
1
It would be interesting to be able to compare catch rates on a water, over say a year. Using 2 baits which are essentially the same but one with maximum protein content & one with reduced protein content.

mark1009
Posts: 4,745
Post #22 7 Jan 2025 22:37
0
In reply to Post #20
I know it's a good bait just by looking at the ingredients, but I bet it's expensive. Still if you're making it yourself its part of the experience of carp fishing as a whole, as it was 40 years ago. More power to your elbow.
JamieNow JamieNow
Posts: 7,471
Post #23 7 Jan 2025 23:09
0
In reply to Post #21
then compare them to a crap bait full of taste enhancers & processed ingredients.

plenty of proof that big fish eat the meals that give them the easiest access to their nutritional requirements but there is a lot more to it than protein content - just cos there's protein doesn't mean they want to eat it. HNV does not mean high protein but a lot of carpers are still stuck in their ways, just because someone wrote a theory on it 50 years ago.

science around carp nutrition has come on leaps & bounds in the last 50 years but for some strange reason, carp anglers seem stuck in their ways & are happy to ignore a lot of it.
MJTee
Posts: 53
Post #24 8 Jan 2025 08:19
1
In reply to Post #22
The ingredients to make 10K of base mix cost £106 - taking into account cost of eggs , oils and gas for the boiling a kilo of finished bait comes out at around £10.50 . I'm happy to pay that

Andy__C Andy__C
Posts: 1,867
Post #25 8 Jan 2025 10:30
0
In reply to Post #24
Some top end ingredients in there, nice mix - I bet it catches. Thanks for sharing!

have you noticed any difference in the changes to the Robin Red over the years given the higher level you use it at and the talked about changes?

Do you tweak the oil levels for winter use or carry the recipie consistently all the way through?
MJTee
Posts: 53
Post #26 8 Jan 2025 12:23
1
In reply to Post #25
Thanks Andy - I make no changes at all , exactly the same all year round. The 20ml of Sunflower Oil is just to help with rolling a little

If the changes to Robin Red have made any difference it can only be minimal , I've certainly not noticed any difference - I do only use the "Hookbait" version though

It's an expensive bait to make , but not to use because you just don't need to pile in kilos of it - a couple of dozen 12mm baits is enough to start with , then top up after each bite. I go fishing to catch them , not to feed them !!
55s 55s
Posts: 713
Post #27 8 Jan 2025 12:26
0
In reply to Post #24
That's interesting but aren't you getting nearer 15kg of finished bait out of 10kg dry?

Regardless it shows that good bait is very expensive. Most rolled baits you can get for ‘about' £6 kilo rolled and so assume that these are being produced at £3-4. Yes they get bulk discounts but would imagine that ‘the best' available commercial bait should cost near £25kg shows that we are not prepared to spend that - which is fair enough.

I need to price up some of the old Geoff Kemp recipes in todays market and see how they fair.
Jaspertinto
Posts: 959
Post #28 8 Jan 2025 14:01
0
In reply to Post #20
Whose Garlic powder & Garlic EA do you use?
whataclonker whataclonker
Posts: 365
Post #29 8 Jan 2025 15:00
0
I'm not saying they won't catch.

I'm putting it out there that possibly catch rates could increase with a lower protein version of the bait on the same water.

Good Luck with the mix.
MJTee
Posts: 53
Post #30 8 Jan 2025 15:36
2
In reply to Post #27
I've just reviewed the costs , and have been very pleased with the end result - it turns out to be a little cheaper than I thought !!

The latest 10K of base mix ingredients have cost me £119.12 , so here are my calculations

500g base 5.96
Eggs 2.00
Garlic Powder 0.15
Garlic EO 0.02
Sunflower Oil 0.04

Total items cost 8.17 (per mix)
Gas 0.23 (nicely rounds-up the cost)

TOTAL 8.40

This produces 875 grammes of rolled bait (this is the weight after a couple of hours drying , which I find sufficient to make the bait work how I want it to)

So, 840 divided by 875 , multiplied by 1000 gives a cost per kilo of rolled bait of £9.60 . I reckon that's not bad at all
MJTee
Posts: 53
Post #31 8 Jan 2025 15:38
0
In reply to Post #28
The Garlic Powder is from Whole Foods World , the EO is Nikura - both off Ebay
PaulBishop PaulBishop
Posts: 371
Post #32 8 Jan 2025 15:50
1
In reply to Post #30
Your labour is free though.
MJTee
Posts: 53
Post #33 8 Jan 2025 16:03
1
In reply to Post #32
You're correct !! So maybe I should also add in a couple of hours-worth of my time at minimum wage rate of £11.44 ............ or maybe not , that brings it up to £32.48 a kilo
PaulBishop PaulBishop
Posts: 371
Post #34 8 Jan 2025 16:16
1
In reply to Post #33
LOL, I did that to highlight the biggest cost per unit in bait making.
The real answers would come from field trials with your mix (which is undoubtably a technically and real, very good one) and a £6/kg alternative fished over the course of a year on different waters by a group of anglers.
Confidence and ability would play the highest factor.
Saying that, if I had the space and commitment, I'd do what you're doing .
dickweed dickweed
Posts: 1,268
Post #35 8 Jan 2025 16:36
0
In reply to Post #30
How many eggs are you using / getting for 2 quid?
MJTee
Posts: 53
Post #36 8 Jan 2025 19:44
0
In reply to Post #35
Six large eggs in my local "One Stop" ( owned by Tesco ) retail at £2.00 - I don't buy in bulk because I don't make the bait in bulk

I also weigh the eggs , trying to get as close as possible to 350g

I am well aware that could also get the base mix ingredients cheaper if I bought in bulk , but given that I only use 20 - 25K in a year and don't have anywhere suitable for bulk storage that's not really an option
Nobbie
Posts: 261
Post #37 9 Jan 2025 10:55
0
Hi,
Does anyone know of a bait maker that can make/supply this type of bait allready made, as i am on a lifetime ban from making bait at home and dont have the option of making them anywhere else.

Kind regards & tight lines.
PaulBishop PaulBishop
Posts: 371
Post #38 9 Jan 2025 11:06
0
In reply to Post #37
Talk to any reputable bait roller and get their advice. If money is no object then there are custom routes you might be able to go down but there will be a minimum order quantity.
CV-Deano
Posts: 380
Post #39 9 Jan 2025 12:05
0
In reply to Post #37
Take a look at rollin baits optimum
scaley&dark
Posts: 5,573
Post #40 9 Jan 2025 12:56
0
In reply to Post #37

Does anyone know of a bait maker, as I am on a lifetime ban from making bait at home.....

I think us DIY Bait makers have all been here at one point or another, either at home with mum & dad, or after moving out.


chrispfox chrispfox
Posts: 600
Post #41 9 Jan 2025 14:30
0
In reply to Post #38
If I were buying a ready made milk protein bait then I'd either get Rollin Baits optimum or the new Baitworks bait Pro-Flow.

If I was rolling my own then I'd get either John Bakers Supermilk or Optibaits HydroMilk.


As a home roller the milk/nut basemixes were fine - nice and sweet and creamy. I got away with doing these in the kitchen.

Ala Salar and Monster Crab with fishmeals... not so much.
MJTee
Posts: 53
Post #42 9 Jan 2025 14:34
0
In reply to Post #37
I can't even find anyone to mix the base for me , hence why I buy the ingredients and mix them myself

Milks and liver powder from AA Baits , birdfoods from Haiths
Andy__C Andy__C
Posts: 1,867
Post #43 10 Jan 2025 10:41
0
In reply to Post #42
Won't target baits do that for you?


https://targetbaits.co.uk/your-baits-your-way


MJTee
Posts: 53
Post #44 10 Jan 2025 18:27
0
In reply to Post #43
Thanks for the heads-up Andy - I've emailed them
MARKerz
Posts: 1,954
Post #45 17 Jan 2025 07:31
0
In reply to Post #1
Simple high protein baits work well and why wouldn't they?
A friend rolled one with just 2 ingredients, it was fabulous but expensive, not great for his way of angling but perfect for mine!
When it comes to the whys that's most often personal assumption but being a good angler definitely helps.
JamieH
Posts: 318
Post #46 17 Jan 2025 08:37
0
In reply to Post #45
Interested to know what you are referring to when you mention not great for his way of angling but good for yours?
AnglingDays&Way AnglingDays&Way
Posts: 1,211
Post #47 17 Jan 2025 08:57
0
In reply to Post #45
Interested to know the two ingredients!
bristol bristol
Posts: 2,292
Post #48 17 Jan 2025 10:06
0
In reply to Post #47
Also very interested in this....guessing a high quality milk and a binder?
JamieH
Posts: 318
Post #49 17 Jan 2025 10:11
0
In reply to Post #48
Didn't Andy Little do very well using just Calcium Casinate and Semolina?
PaulBishop PaulBishop
Posts: 371
Post #50 17 Jan 2025 10:27
0
In reply to Post #49
Which is another variation of 50/50 mix, protein and binder.
scaley&dark
Posts: 5,573
Post #51 17 Jan 2025 11:04
0
In reply to Post #49
As per his writing, Initially when he started on Savay he went in with a protein bait.
But as he was fishing a lot, petrol, etc, and using so much bait ( for back then ) he dropped all the expensive protein ingredients and ended up using just semolina, eggs, a maple flavour and a simple sugar sweetener.

bristol bristol
Posts: 2,292
Post #52 17 Jan 2025 11:51
0
In reply to Post #49
Isn't calcium caseinate a particularly light milk protein? Cant imagine the inclusion rate would be more than about 10% without the baits getting light...?
PaulBishop PaulBishop
Posts: 371
Post #53 17 Jan 2025 11:59
0
In reply to Post #52
Light as in colour or buoyancy? Sodium Caseinate was the floater option I think 🤔.
bristol bristol
Posts: 2,292
Post #54 17 Jan 2025 12:35
0
In reply to Post #53
Buoyancy I thought, could be wrong.

Edit - taken from the AA Baits website:

Calcium Caseinate is one of the highest quality milk proteins, with a crude protein content of 96% this soluble lactic casein should not be overlooked as even being used at moderate levels this product provides valuable essential amino acids. Care should be taken as to the inclusion levels as this product is very light and can produce buoyant baits.
PaulBishop PaulBishop
Posts: 371
Post #55 17 Jan 2025 12:57
0
In reply to Post #54
That's practically word for word as Sodium C. So, don't use more than 10% of either.
Off to check out Casein or probably just buy JB or Optibaits hookbait versions.
JamieH
Posts: 318
Post #56 17 Jan 2025 13:17
0
In reply to Post #52
It appears my memory was wrong. Maybe is was another Milk Protein that he selected.
But as has also been said, I remember he dropped the ingredient eventually and continued with a 100% semo bait. Food for thought eh? lol!
MARKerz
Posts: 1,954
Post #57 20 Jan 2025 10:26
0
In reply to Post #46
He likes to use quite a bit of bait and fishes further out so is unable to know what could be eating these expensive baits, much of it could be wasted.

I fish pretty much exclusively with 1 rod in the edges so am able to have a good idea as to what is eating the bait which helps me understand when to adjust my baiting.

No point wasting this type of expensive bait IMO, i want the carp to be getting the vast majority.
MARKerz
Posts: 1,954
Post #58 20 Jan 2025 10:28
0
In reply to Post #47
It's not mine to give away I'm afraid, sorry.
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