Looking for a non-fishmeal shelflife boilie.
A local water fished consistently sees more fish banked to non-fishmeal baits. I catch a few on fishmeal baits but i struggle to be consistent and would like to use an alternative to fish along side or as a primary bait going forward.
Really does need to be shelflife due to a fairly recent change in my storage options.
A local water fished consistently sees more fish banked to non-fishmeal baits. I catch a few on fishmeal baits but i struggle to be consistent and would like to use an alternative to fish along side or as a primary bait going forward.
Really does need to be shelflife due to a fairly recent change in my storage options.
In reply to Post #1
You'll get thirty different suggestions, I'd personally go with mad baits or manilla. Clean factory's and roll their own bait. Unlike I anticipate 60% of suggestions 🤣
You'll get thirty different suggestions, I'd personally go with mad baits or manilla. Clean factory's and roll their own bait. Unlike I anticipate 60% of suggestions 🤣
In reply to Post #1
Premier Baits will roll all of their ranges as shelf life if you want.
Premier Baits will roll all of their ranges as shelf life if you want.
In reply to Post #1
A few years ago, shelfies had a bad reputation for being crap. But nowadays, I think a lot of the main bait companies have good shelf life boilies. Such as CC Moore, DNA, RG, ABS, and so on. All have non fishmeal options.
A lot of people on here really rate The A Bait, they only make shelfies but they don't like calling them shelfies. Have a look at them, also use the search function on here to see reviews.
A few years ago, shelfies had a bad reputation for being crap. But nowadays, I think a lot of the main bait companies have good shelf life boilies. Such as CC Moore, DNA, RG, ABS, and so on. All have non fishmeal options.
A lot of people on here really rate The A Bait, they only make shelfies but they don't like calling them shelfies. Have a look at them, also use the search function on here to see reviews.
In reply to Post #1
Rg baits vita lac 👍 Job done
Rg baits vita lac 👍 Job done
In reply to Post #1
Baitworks creamino is catching a lot of fish around my way lately. Both frozen and shelfies. CC Moore live system would also be worth a look. Been around donkeys years and still catching loads of carp.
Baitworks creamino is catching a lot of fish around my way lately. Both frozen and shelfies. CC Moore live system would also be worth a look. Been around donkeys years and still catching loads of carp.
In reply to Post #1
Xcel Baits VNF (vanilla-nut-fudge), lovely bait.
Xcel Baits VNF (vanilla-nut-fudge), lovely bait.
I'd personally go for either live system or one of the ABS Nut variations, like plan B etc.
In reply to Post #9
I had a poor time on Live System, be it i was using the freezer range. I have know idea if i got a poor batch but they were very tough for a freezer bait and i struggled on it. The matching pop ups were good to be fair.
I've had a good look at RG Baits Vita-Lac and it sounds decent.
What are peoples thoughts on Sticky Manilla? The Krill is a constant recommendation but i haven't read much on any forums really about Manilla.
I had a poor time on Live System, be it i was using the freezer range. I have know idea if i got a poor batch but they were very tough for a freezer bait and i struggled on it. The matching pop ups were good to be fair.
I've had a good look at RG Baits Vita-Lac and it sounds decent.
What are peoples thoughts on Sticky Manilla? The Krill is a constant recommendation but i haven't read much on any forums really about Manilla.
In reply to Post #10
I guess it's things to consider regarding sticky
Immaculate unit
Biggest unit in the country
Most expensive machinery
Imports loads of ingredients in mass to keep cost down but has a rapid turnaround due to sheer size
There pop ups could be more buoyant if you need a chod etc but apart from that, I'd say all positives, especially if you find a reasonable price for it.
Whichever bait you go for get some liquid liver to use with it, none of my baits or recipes exclude it in powdered form but buying ready maxes the liquid is a better bet
I guess it's things to consider regarding sticky
Immaculate unit
Biggest unit in the country
Most expensive machinery
Imports loads of ingredients in mass to keep cost down but has a rapid turnaround due to sheer size
There pop ups could be more buoyant if you need a chod etc but apart from that, I'd say all positives, especially if you find a reasonable price for it.
Whichever bait you go for get some liquid liver to use with it, none of my baits or recipes exclude it in powdered form but buying ready maxes the liquid is a better bet
In reply to Post #10
I found Manilla to be bang average to be honest. Not a patch on the Krill. There's others I'd pick over it. I think it's perfectly fine, but nothing special. All the people who I know that used it when it first came out aren't using it anymore, which says something.
One that's definitely worth a look is that Banana one from Proper Carp Baits.
I found Manilla to be bang average to be honest. Not a patch on the Krill. There's others I'd pick over it. I think it's perfectly fine, but nothing special. All the people who I know that used it when it first came out aren't using it anymore, which says something.
One that's definitely worth a look is that Banana one from Proper Carp Baits.
In reply to Post #11
A fan of liquid liver myself, works well over washed out and softened baits.
I actually have a Sticky Baits brochure/tips guide with lots of pictures and info regarding there set up and it all looks impressive for carp baits.
Manilla seemingly doesn't get much of a look in compared to Krill.
Are there any long term users out there?
A fan of liquid liver myself, works well over washed out and softened baits.
I actually have a Sticky Baits brochure/tips guide with lots of pictures and info regarding there set up and it all looks impressive for carp baits.
Manilla seemingly doesn't get much of a look in compared to Krill.
Are there any long term users out there?
In reply to Post #12
Probably why i can't find much about it in terms of user experience.
I haven't actually seen Manilla in the flesh but i assumed it was a decent bait and the scope of baits within the range is attractive in respect to having matching items to go with the boilie.
Given the type of of fishing i do i tend to buy my bait in smaller quantities but utilise matching items to give me a few options.
Any more for RG Vita-Lac?
Probably why i can't find much about it in terms of user experience.
I haven't actually seen Manilla in the flesh but i assumed it was a decent bait and the scope of baits within the range is attractive in respect to having matching items to go with the boilie.
Given the type of of fishing i do i tend to buy my bait in smaller quantities but utilise matching items to give me a few options.
Any more for RG Vita-Lac?
In reply to Post #11
None of which mean that the mix catches fish though?
I'm sure the Richmond sausage factory is shiny, clean and expensive and I bet that they can buy salt and breadcrumb in huge quantities for a low price.
Doesn't mean the sausages are better quality than my local butcher.
None of which mean that the mix catches fish though?
I'm sure the Richmond sausage factory is shiny, clean and expensive and I bet that they can buy salt and breadcrumb in huge quantities for a low price.
Doesn't mean the sausages are better quality than my local butcher.
In reply to Post #12
Proper carp baits, with their water soluble oils 😂
Proper carp baits, with their water soluble oils 😂
In reply to Post #15
It's hardly going to be released without testing is it?!
All the decent nut baits out there now owe a usually key ingredient ( peanut protein ) to manilla for stickybaits importing it.
It catches huge amounts of fish, I know a lot of people use tge sweet speciaized hookbait over the top because why wouldn't you frankly but that's side tracking.
Your local butcher may well make a nice sausage but that's because they're subject to the same handling regs and food safety standards.
Yes, having the best factory doesn't mean you make the best bait but there is literally no need for sticky to cheap out on their baits, as relatively speaking tge price gap on ingredients is different to them, who will buy fifty tonnes direct from supplier, and the smaller firms who use tge bacarels and the BAFs etc. They e gotten to a point where it's an entirely different economic of scale. I can make decent bait at “price x” a bigger company like dynamite or dna and make it for “price y” and then sticky and a couple of European outfits can make it for “price z”.
Plus the more of a range you have, tge less reliant you are on any one thing for a high profit margin so take for example a bait company that does matching hookbaits, some liquids and a few fluoro ones, that's nothing compared to an entirely different import business, contract rolling, loads of ranges of hookbaits, liquids, groundbaits, trade supplies etc.
Im sure there are better nut baits out there, in fact I know there are but sticky aren't the Richmond sausage of the bait world by any means lol
It's hardly going to be released without testing is it?!
All the decent nut baits out there now owe a usually key ingredient ( peanut protein ) to manilla for stickybaits importing it.
It catches huge amounts of fish, I know a lot of people use tge sweet speciaized hookbait over the top because why wouldn't you frankly but that's side tracking.
Your local butcher may well make a nice sausage but that's because they're subject to the same handling regs and food safety standards.
Yes, having the best factory doesn't mean you make the best bait but there is literally no need for sticky to cheap out on their baits, as relatively speaking tge price gap on ingredients is different to them, who will buy fifty tonnes direct from supplier, and the smaller firms who use tge bacarels and the BAFs etc. They e gotten to a point where it's an entirely different economic of scale. I can make decent bait at “price x” a bigger company like dynamite or dna and make it for “price y” and then sticky and a couple of European outfits can make it for “price z”.
Plus the more of a range you have, tge less reliant you are on any one thing for a high profit margin so take for example a bait company that does matching hookbaits, some liquids and a few fluoro ones, that's nothing compared to an entirely different import business, contract rolling, loads of ranges of hookbaits, liquids, groundbaits, trade supplies etc.
Im sure there are better nut baits out there, in fact I know there are but sticky aren't the Richmond sausage of the bait world by any means lol
In reply to Post #17
I've always found nut boilies to be like vegan sausages. Just use a bloody nut or kill an animal ffs
Saying that I'd take a hand full of dynamite tiger nut shelf life in 10 or 12mm over 5kg of manilla
I've always found nut boilies to be like vegan sausages. Just use a bloody nut or kill an animal ffs
Saying that I'd take a hand full of dynamite tiger nut shelf life in 10 or 12mm over 5kg of manilla
The pot of mulbz I have are like no other sticky baits pop up iv had before I got sick of looking at it on my kitchen windowsill after a week with the spinner rig sat of the bottom of a jar only held down by the putty I put on... Krill are good for a night just
In reply to Post #14
I've used Vita Lac hookbaits (wafters in barrel or round) and it's defo a good bait. I would use the Vita Lac shelfies with confidence.
I've used Vita Lac hookbaits (wafters in barrel or round) and it's defo a good bait. I would use the Vita Lac shelfies with confidence.
In reply to Post #17
I know two well known anglers that were consultants for sticky (one is still with them one has moved on) both dont rate Manilla at all and one was buying a nut mix from another manufacturer on the sly. You may call it inferior (it may well be nutritionally i have no idea and i suspect you don't either) but ABS nut mix and its various descendants of, easily holds its own against Manilla in the fish catching stakes in my experience.
I get sticky are producing baits in huge quantities so have massive buying power, but on the flip side they are also paying consultants a fair whack to use their gear. They are also spending a fortune on marketing, funding big overseas shoots and hiring professional video makers, not least supplying baits to the shops for them to whack their 40/50% on top.
Its not as clear cut as saying those with the most buying power produce the best or most productive bait.
I know two well known anglers that were consultants for sticky (one is still with them one has moved on) both dont rate Manilla at all and one was buying a nut mix from another manufacturer on the sly. You may call it inferior (it may well be nutritionally i have no idea and i suspect you don't either) but ABS nut mix and its various descendants of, easily holds its own against Manilla in the fish catching stakes in my experience.
I get sticky are producing baits in huge quantities so have massive buying power, but on the flip side they are also paying consultants a fair whack to use their gear. They are also spending a fortune on marketing, funding big overseas shoots and hiring professional video makers, not least supplying baits to the shops for them to whack their 40/50% on top.
Its not as clear cut as saying those with the most buying power produce the best or most productive bait.
In reply to Post #20
It's a fantastic bait 👍 the guys at Rg are good blokes
It's a fantastic bait 👍 the guys at Rg are good blokes
DNA baits always get good write ups and they do good deals.
In reply to Post #23
I'm happy with my dna order so far,trying the bug this year
I'm happy with my dna order so far,trying the bug this year
In reply to Post #24
I had one on The Bug at the weekend - first time using it. Nice confidence booster.
I had one on The Bug at the weekend - first time using it. Nice confidence booster.
In reply to Post #25
I'm off to a little pool straight after work at 4:30 jump on and off bus with my dwarfs rods and bucket and my dna bait and got the liquid to go in bags and the hydrowheat syrup to go over the bag before I lob the bags out.
I'm off to a little pool straight after work at 4:30 jump on and off bus with my dwarfs rods and bucket and my dna bait and got the liquid to go in bags and the hydrowheat syrup to go over the bag before I lob the bags out.
In reply to Post #21
I wasn't implying tge biggest buying power equals tge best bait, rather, the biggest buying power equates to the best prices for the manufacturerC which in turn means that for the same level of money, a better bait can be produced.
I wasn't implying tge biggest buying power equals tge best bait, rather, the biggest buying power equates to the best prices for the manufacturerC which in turn means that for the same level of money, a better bait can be produced.
In reply to Post #27
But it's a pointless statement, because none of us know if they spend those savings on more of the expensive ingredients or paying somebody to film some northern bloke climb a tree over and over again.
But it's a pointless statement, because none of us know if they spend those savings on more of the expensive ingredients or paying somebody to film some northern bloke climb a tree over and over again.
In reply to Post #28
drop the shelf life and id comment
drop the shelf life and id comment
In reply to Post #28
You can get a rough idea when you know how these ingredients taste and look on bait but also when you know the ingredients they stock.
It's popular to hate in the big boys but genuinely if I didn't too I'd be thinking of using either sticky or maybe one or two others that's it
You can get a rough idea when you know how these ingredients taste and look on bait but also when you know the ingredients they stock.
It's popular to hate in the big boys but genuinely if I didn't too I'd be thinking of using either sticky or maybe one or two others that's it
In reply to Post #30
your thoughts on vegetable proteins?
your thoughts on vegetable proteins?
In reply to Post #31
Completely valid ingredients.
Soy, maize, pea, bean, pulse there is such a wide variety of source material and then you have categorised such as micronised / infested or heat treat meal products, protein isolates / concentrates etc
One thing I will say, I've not found any that necessarily get the same feeding realise as fishmeals in most scenarios, but they're handy functions and can certainly be nutrient dense. In terms of functionality virtually every individual product has its own particular traits such as a lot of the seed meals having a high fat / lipid content or maize protein fractions which are a very dense meal, or maize flours inherent property of reducing the break down time of most baits.
One thing I feel that is often overlooked is the fibre content of all of these which is usually high in the meals, it moves bait through fish faster, bad for nutritional benefits to the fish but advantageous in that you reduce the chances of fish filling up.
I don't feel the protein element is the reason that some work, for example tigernuts are a very low protein high fat bait but carp because excessively preoccupied on them.
I flirted around with a recipe for a very sustainable pea and insect based bait with optimum levels of soluble fish extracts for attraction purposes but ultimately couldn't get a consistent product for insect meals ( not a problem if a minor ingredient but it was a major constituent in the recipe ).
Certainly vegetable proteins will have a bigger role to play in the future as a sustainable component of carp baits.
Completely valid ingredients.
Soy, maize, pea, bean, pulse there is such a wide variety of source material and then you have categorised such as micronised / infested or heat treat meal products, protein isolates / concentrates etc
One thing I will say, I've not found any that necessarily get the same feeding realise as fishmeals in most scenarios, but they're handy functions and can certainly be nutrient dense. In terms of functionality virtually every individual product has its own particular traits such as a lot of the seed meals having a high fat / lipid content or maize protein fractions which are a very dense meal, or maize flours inherent property of reducing the break down time of most baits.
One thing I feel that is often overlooked is the fibre content of all of these which is usually high in the meals, it moves bait through fish faster, bad for nutritional benefits to the fish but advantageous in that you reduce the chances of fish filling up.
I don't feel the protein element is the reason that some work, for example tigernuts are a very low protein high fat bait but carp because excessively preoccupied on them.
I flirted around with a recipe for a very sustainable pea and insect based bait with optimum levels of soluble fish extracts for attraction purposes but ultimately couldn't get a consistent product for insect meals ( not a problem if a minor ingredient but it was a major constituent in the recipe ).
Certainly vegetable proteins will have a bigger role to play in the future as a sustainable component of carp baits.
DNAs Bug or switch?
Related to my initial question. Are there any time proven non-fishmeal baits that are actually nutritionally comparable or on par with a good fishmeal bait? As previously mentioned i have used a variety of fishmeal baits over the years but never really a nut bait long term for example.
I can think of many proven baits that contain no fishmeal that work and do so consistently but from what info is available I'm fairly sure such baits couldn't be classified as nutritional or food source but fall more into the attractor category.
I know a multitude of non-fishmeal baits work and in some cases despite what would seem a distinct disadvantage nutritionally continue to do so year in year out.
Ultimately what i suppose I'm asking is if you are happy using a proven bait that catches fish but doesn't necessarily provide a decent 'meal' long term? However if fish come back again and again for a less nutritionally sound bait does that not contradict the notion that food source baits always win long term?
I can think of many proven baits that contain no fishmeal that work and do so consistently but from what info is available I'm fairly sure such baits couldn't be classified as nutritional or food source but fall more into the attractor category.
I know a multitude of non-fishmeal baits work and in some cases despite what would seem a distinct disadvantage nutritionally continue to do so year in year out.
Ultimately what i suppose I'm asking is if you are happy using a proven bait that catches fish but doesn't necessarily provide a decent 'meal' long term? However if fish come back again and again for a less nutritionally sound bait does that not contradict the notion that food source baits always win long term?
In reply to Post #34
There's lots of protein, fats, sugars, milks, fibre etc in a lot of nut bait. Just because it's not coming from fishmeals doesn't mean it's not a nutritious food source. Even the common binders add something in the way of nutrition to the bait. Plus plenty of rollers add additional vitamins. And don't forget there's a lot of fresh egg in a good nut bait as well.
There's lots of protein, fats, sugars, milks, fibre etc in a lot of nut bait. Just because it's not coming from fishmeals doesn't mean it's not a nutritious food source. Even the common binders add something in the way of nutrition to the bait. Plus plenty of rollers add additional vitamins. And don't forget there's a lot of fresh egg in a good nut bait as well.
In reply to Post #34
Yes there are nut baits that are comparable to fishmeal in terms of useable protein, with a complete essential amino acid profile, and can be food source rather than just attractor baits.
Vegetable and nut meals tend to be short of one or more essential amino acids, but the addition of yeast can complete the missing essential Amino acids.
There are a few other baits that do provide a complete profile, chicken meals, meat meals, but seem to be few and far between behind the 'fashion' of nut based boilies.
Yes there are nut baits that are comparable to fishmeal in terms of useable protein, with a complete essential amino acid profile, and can be food source rather than just attractor baits.
Vegetable and nut meals tend to be short of one or more essential amino acids, but the addition of yeast can complete the missing essential Amino acids.
There are a few other baits that do provide a complete profile, chicken meals, meat meals, but seem to be few and far between behind the 'fashion' of nut based boilies.
In reply to Post #34
A few of us used a basic birdseed bait years ago, 50% Red Factor and 50% binders, added Parmesan Cheese powder, Marmite & flavour.
Pretty much most baits will be nutritious to some extent, we caught loads on the above bait as did many on similar recipes over extended periods of time, the fish put on weight and looked in great condition.
The strange thing with boiled baits is many refer to them as either HNV or Crap but there is a big area between the two that gets brushed over, what if the fan dangled bait hasn't had it's FLAA's dealt with, Vitamins & Minerals, etc.
Long term is relative, how long do you need the bait to work on a particular water? The fish are just looking for food and I still catch plenty on dog biscuits, corn, maize, maples, tiger nuts all stuff that has been used for god knows how long and many say that they don't offer much nutritionally.
I don't get hung up on bait at all these days, I do get hung up on how and where I'm using said baits and I use shelf-life boilies which many say are not as good as frozen etc.
A few of us used a basic birdseed bait years ago, 50% Red Factor and 50% binders, added Parmesan Cheese powder, Marmite & flavour.
Pretty much most baits will be nutritious to some extent, we caught loads on the above bait as did many on similar recipes over extended periods of time, the fish put on weight and looked in great condition.
The strange thing with boiled baits is many refer to them as either HNV or Crap but there is a big area between the two that gets brushed over, what if the fan dangled bait hasn't had it's FLAA's dealt with, Vitamins & Minerals, etc.
Long term is relative, how long do you need the bait to work on a particular water? The fish are just looking for food and I still catch plenty on dog biscuits, corn, maize, maples, tiger nuts all stuff that has been used for god knows how long and many say that they don't offer much nutritionally.
I don't get hung up on bait at all these days, I do get hung up on how and where I'm using said baits and I use shelf-life boilies which many say are not as good as frozen etc.
Thanks for some really good information and responses.
Given that non-fishmeal baits can be very nutritious what baits are out that work and fit this description?
Again a bait i have no first hand knowledge about but seems to be fairly well reviewed through the forums is Munch Baits Cream Seed. I'm sure i saw a video review/experience where along with reading out the ingredients on the bag the guy stated it had a crude protein content of around 32%.
Are there any users past or present with first hand experience with this bait?
Ideally i would like to fish with a bait that of course works and fish want to eat but also provides the fish with some of the goodies they need to be healthy.
Given that non-fishmeal baits can be very nutritious what baits are out that work and fit this description?
Again a bait i have no first hand knowledge about but seems to be fairly well reviewed through the forums is Munch Baits Cream Seed. I'm sure i saw a video review/experience where along with reading out the ingredients on the bag the guy stated it had a crude protein content of around 32%.
Are there any users past or present with first hand experience with this bait?
Ideally i would like to fish with a bait that of course works and fish want to eat but also provides the fish with some of the goodies they need to be healthy.
In reply to Post #38
The cream seed, bit of history...
Munch baits started out with three mixes, sold little so set up a a subsidiary company called total baits, which did two baits, one fish, one cream seed, VERY cheap. it could for £2 per kilo at shows and the owners dad remarked to me they were "good money makers". Munh baits did a rebranding and brought the cream seed bait over to their range.
The absolute roof cost for basemix components, if selling direct, is about 60% of the final product cost, so 1.20
Will it catch carp? Yes, but I've caught carp on a bare hook with a slice of cigarette filter glued to it in a PVA bag....
Also, The main component of all their liquids is glycerin ( listed as " humectant" on the bottle ) - quite why a liquid needs ones other that water it down....
BUT you pays your moneys, you do what you feel is right, but I'd take many a different bait over it.
I'd go with mad baits Nutz, poacher baits TNT, or stickys manilla for a nut based bait if I were to buy one.
Frenzy off this forum uses the TNT for donkeys years I believe, and hes a well fussy bloke
The cream seed, bit of history...
Munch baits started out with three mixes, sold little so set up a a subsidiary company called total baits, which did two baits, one fish, one cream seed, VERY cheap. it could for £2 per kilo at shows and the owners dad remarked to me they were "good money makers". Munh baits did a rebranding and brought the cream seed bait over to their range.
The absolute roof cost for basemix components, if selling direct, is about 60% of the final product cost, so 1.20
Will it catch carp? Yes, but I've caught carp on a bare hook with a slice of cigarette filter glued to it in a PVA bag....
Also, The main component of all their liquids is glycerin ( listed as " humectant" on the bottle ) - quite why a liquid needs ones other that water it down....
BUT you pays your moneys, you do what you feel is right, but I'd take many a different bait over it.
I'd go with mad baits Nutz, poacher baits TNT, or stickys manilla for a nut based bait if I were to buy one.
Frenzy off this forum uses the TNT for donkeys years I believe, and hes a well fussy bloke
In reply to Post #38
Now I have to say at the start that I've never used this bait. However I did take a very close look at it at a couple of the NA shows. Both times my impression was that it was a very low end bait. It's not something I'd personally use either. There's a lot of what in my opinion better baits already named in this thread.
Now I have to say at the start that I've never used this bait. However I did take a very close look at it at a couple of the NA shows. Both times my impression was that it was a very low end bait. It's not something I'd personally use either. There's a lot of what in my opinion better baits already named in this thread.
In reply to Post #39
Poacher Baits Tiger Nut and Maple (TNM) is not available in shelf life form, it's only available as fresh. If it was available in shelf life form, I would have recommended it to the OP as it is an excellent bait.
In reply to Post #38
I have used Munch Baits Cream Seed, bought 5Kg a few winters ago, caught a few fish on it over winter. It's a bit powdery, so as Wayne suggests in post #40, it is a low end bait. But what do you expect for something around £6 a kilo? I won't use it again, there are definitely better baits out there (Vita Lac, Live System and Tricknut to name but a few).
Poacher Baits Tiger Nut and Maple (TNM) is not available in shelf life form, it's only available as fresh. If it was available in shelf life form, I would have recommended it to the OP as it is an excellent bait.
In reply to Post #38
I have used Munch Baits Cream Seed, bought 5Kg a few winters ago, caught a few fish on it over winter. It's a bit powdery, so as Wayne suggests in post #40, it is a low end bait. But what do you expect for something around £6 a kilo? I won't use it again, there are definitely better baits out there (Vita Lac, Live System and Tricknut to name but a few).
What about Baitworks Creamino ?
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