In reply to Post #74
Hi Mark
Sure, some will boil out but hardly everything. I have done a bit of research on that and used to add 7% of total boilie weight in hydrolysate to the dough to have an estimated 5% in the finished boilie. It was then clear to see the boilie was leaking liquid when in the water.
Obviously getting the pure liquid in the water will have a stronger effect. I have had access to tons of hydrolysate, (literally) and using ridiculous amounts like 0,5-1 litre per rod has given me some of my best catches.
Hi Mark
Sure, some will boil out but hardly everything. I have done a bit of research on that and used to add 7% of total boilie weight in hydrolysate to the dough to have an estimated 5% in the finished boilie. It was then clear to see the boilie was leaking liquid when in the water.
Obviously getting the pure liquid in the water will have a stronger effect. I have had access to tons of hydrolysate, (literally) and using ridiculous amounts like 0,5-1 litre per rod has given me some of my best catches.
In reply to Post #76
You're convinced I'm 'Mark' lol. I'd have already bet they are too Viking, your best catches like you say. Your getting it into the water in amounts that they can really hone in on, and thus get excited about. The more 'excited' you get a carp, the more you catch. What if I told you that there were ways of making that liquid that you love, even better. Even more effective than what it already is right now? It does not matter what the liquid is, or how effective it already is in its own right. You can actually change the way that liquid goes through the water itself, and make that same product, into an even more effective product. Liquid is fantastic, but by doing certain things to these amazing liquids, we can actually enhance them, and how and why they work under water. Some human made oils are rubbish. Put them in an oven for an hour on a low heat, it changes them. Changes the very structure of the oil itself. Changes how that oil works in water. Think of cars being able to run on cooking oil, only after it has been used though. It's a different beast too the original one once it's been cooked.
You're convinced I'm 'Mark' lol. I'd have already bet they are too Viking, your best catches like you say. Your getting it into the water in amounts that they can really hone in on, and thus get excited about. The more 'excited' you get a carp, the more you catch. What if I told you that there were ways of making that liquid that you love, even better. Even more effective than what it already is right now? It does not matter what the liquid is, or how effective it already is in its own right. You can actually change the way that liquid goes through the water itself, and make that same product, into an even more effective product. Liquid is fantastic, but by doing certain things to these amazing liquids, we can actually enhance them, and how and why they work under water. Some human made oils are rubbish. Put them in an oven for an hour on a low heat, it changes them. Changes the very structure of the oil itself. Changes how that oil works in water. Think of cars being able to run on cooking oil, only after it has been used though. It's a different beast too the original one once it's been cooked.
In reply to Post #55
Wrong on every single thing you just said.
Nut mc, Average seller
Malarkey has always been average seller
But your bait will be successful for only two reasons
One......your marketing is well funded and constant
Two.......you actually have a good bait that will work all year round and anglers results spread. I'm not trying to fall out with anyone I'm just trying to offer a few valid points as to what I think makes bait successful. Nuts have a place in angling but I think they are much more efficient when ground up, roasted, salted and turned into powder or meal and combined with other base ingredients. Of course I have used peanuts over the years and caught carp but nothing to convince me they are any better than sweet corn or hemp. We will see more nut boilies in the future simply because they are cheaper to make (in most cases) and sustainable but I think the other ingredients used alongside the Nut meals are more beneficial. True we ain't there to feed carp, but a free meal goes along way to catching them in my opinion
Wrong on every single thing you just said.
Nut mc, Average seller
Malarkey has always been average seller
But your bait will be successful for only two reasons
One......your marketing is well funded and constant
Two.......you actually have a good bait that will work all year round and anglers results spread. I'm not trying to fall out with anyone I'm just trying to offer a few valid points as to what I think makes bait successful. Nuts have a place in angling but I think they are much more efficient when ground up, roasted, salted and turned into powder or meal and combined with other base ingredients. Of course I have used peanuts over the years and caught carp but nothing to convince me they are any better than sweet corn or hemp. We will see more nut boilies in the future simply because they are cheaper to make (in most cases) and sustainable but I think the other ingredients used alongside the Nut meals are more beneficial. True we ain't there to feed carp, but a free meal goes along way to catching them in my opinion
In reply to Post #78
Ah okay, so all that is rubbish then is it. Okay. Shall we put it another way then keeperboy? Does Geoff formulate your baits, or did he used too? Do you sell MC Nut as something else, under a different name? I came and brought a load of particles from you lot once if you're who I'm thinking. Was served by a lovely lady. Whatever, the ratio of nut baits, to fish meals you have sold over the past five years has dramatically changed.That's a fact. Eight years ago if you were selling bait, you would have barely have been selling any nut mix boilies, it was far more swerved towards fish meal. You get my point.
Ah okay, so all that is rubbish then is it. Okay. Shall we put it another way then keeperboy? Does Geoff formulate your baits, or did he used too? Do you sell MC Nut as something else, under a different name? I came and brought a load of particles from you lot once if you're who I'm thinking. Was served by a lovely lady. Whatever, the ratio of nut baits, to fish meals you have sold over the past five years has dramatically changed.That's a fact. Eight years ago if you were selling bait, you would have barely have been selling any nut mix boilies, it was far more swerved towards fish meal. You get my point.
In reply to Post #79
We have sold Geoff's bait for years yes, I think that's common knowledge!! We do our own stuff now (and are expanding further if that helps you to drop in and make another purchase 😂😂
and we work with a few different boffins from back in the day. Yes nut baits feature more in modern bait sales but do I rate them above fishmeals? No I don't! But I'm not everyone and also I have never been shown a nut bait that I think offers a better profile than what I use today. That won't stop me trying to make a nutty bait though either as I understand that the market dictates what we work on and I have ideas which I think can make nut/carb baits better but that's for another day. I honestly think nut baits are popular because they smell nice!! And that makes it an easy sell for companies across the board. Think cell/Manila......id love a quid for every kilo sold. Fashion will go round again, hi protein insect meals may be the next step for baitworld who knows. The best boilies I have ever used honestly have a reason why they catch more carp and one of the main reasons is that they are still around on the lakebed when mr carp comes along. We designed a perfect ball designed to miss out other species, stay in tact, offer better nutrition and attraction (attraction being very important) and to be able to throw a long way with a tube of plastic (carbon now). Forget sales, forget hype and forget media and think about what you could make given a list of ingredients. The holy grail of boilie does exist and it will outfish a maggot or a seed or a nut simply cos it's easier for us to use!
We have sold Geoff's bait for years yes, I think that's common knowledge!! We do our own stuff now (and are expanding further if that helps you to drop in and make another purchase 😂😂
and we work with a few different boffins from back in the day. Yes nut baits feature more in modern bait sales but do I rate them above fishmeals? No I don't! But I'm not everyone and also I have never been shown a nut bait that I think offers a better profile than what I use today. That won't stop me trying to make a nutty bait though either as I understand that the market dictates what we work on and I have ideas which I think can make nut/carb baits better but that's for another day. I honestly think nut baits are popular because they smell nice!! And that makes it an easy sell for companies across the board. Think cell/Manila......id love a quid for every kilo sold. Fashion will go round again, hi protein insect meals may be the next step for baitworld who knows. The best boilies I have ever used honestly have a reason why they catch more carp and one of the main reasons is that they are still around on the lakebed when mr carp comes along. We designed a perfect ball designed to miss out other species, stay in tact, offer better nutrition and attraction (attraction being very important) and to be able to throw a long way with a tube of plastic (carbon now). Forget sales, forget hype and forget media and think about what you could make given a list of ingredients. The holy grail of boilie does exist and it will outfish a maggot or a seed or a nut simply cos it's easier for us to use!
In reply to Post #80
Not just fashion mate. You are totally underestimating the reason for that sales change. Look at this way, how many clubs were there and syndicate waters around the country that had banned nuts ten years ago? The answer, tons. So, nut based boiled baits then become popular for certain reasons. A whole generation of carp, whom had barely ever seen a nut on these waters (but remember they love them). Give those anglers a nut based boiled bait which they are allowed to use on that venue, bosh. That is the reason right there. You're right, the balance will and already is being addressed. But that's the reason right there. It's nothing to do with a nice smell lol. Joe bloggs goes fishing to his local lake. He don't care, he just wants to catch a few fish. He no great angler, he just enjoys fishing. Suddenly he tries this nut bait, instead of his normal, because everyone is suddenly banging on about them. Suddenly, Joe Bloggs catches twelve that weekend, instead of none. The real reason that just happened, nuts are banned on Joe's lake. The carp throw their guard right down and want to scoff every last one. Ban fish meal from half the lakes in the country. Give it ten years, and let me come along with a way around it, to use a more dissolvable version of fish meal that's been banned. What do you think would happen? Exactly the same thing. The fish love, what the fish love. We are the ones who put rules there.
Not just fashion mate. You are totally underestimating the reason for that sales change. Look at this way, how many clubs were there and syndicate waters around the country that had banned nuts ten years ago? The answer, tons. So, nut based boiled baits then become popular for certain reasons. A whole generation of carp, whom had barely ever seen a nut on these waters (but remember they love them). Give those anglers a nut based boiled bait which they are allowed to use on that venue, bosh. That is the reason right there. You're right, the balance will and already is being addressed. But that's the reason right there. It's nothing to do with a nice smell lol. Joe bloggs goes fishing to his local lake. He don't care, he just wants to catch a few fish. He no great angler, he just enjoys fishing. Suddenly he tries this nut bait, instead of his normal, because everyone is suddenly banging on about them. Suddenly, Joe Bloggs catches twelve that weekend, instead of none. The real reason that just happened, nuts are banned on Joe's lake. The carp throw their guard right down and want to scoff every last one. Ban fish meal from half the lakes in the country. Give it ten years, and let me come along with a way around it, to use a more dissolvable version of fish meal that's been banned. What do you think would happen? Exactly the same thing. The fish love, what the fish love. We are the ones who put rules there.
In reply to Post #81
Ok I can see some common ground there but let's go back to basics. Carp eat small fry and larger fish naturally. Isn't that a simple basic step to understanding what carp want to eat? Why do pellet companies use fishmeal not nutmeal when they could save shed loads of dollar using nut. They studied what makes fish eat more and grow faster......fishmeal! We are so lucky as anglers as we have so many things at our disposal to trick a carp into swallowing our rig. Even plastic hookbaits get a response but they wouldn't keep eating bits of plastic cos they know it offers nothing and is inedible. I guess what I'm trying to say is we have a basic formula which we know every carp in the world will pick up and eat more than once, it likes eating, it benefits from and it can be manipulated into so many different forms to keep on catching carp I.e fishmeal. You have to admit that it has been the one constant in carp fishing that has tripped up more carp than anything else. Make it digestible and you have a winner in cold water. If you could make it wriggle you would be top rod every year!! I'm not anti nut at all and an active nut with soluble ingredients has a place. One last note, if you think manky boilie is sitting around uneaten on lots of lakes round the country then you should see the amount of particles and maggots they found at linear when they had issues. At least a boilie normally floats off if not consumed.
I'm on one of the best well known boilie waters in the uk fished by a very broad band of anglers of all abilities and by my calculations the fishmeals and hnv bait have outfished all others by a huge margin.....is that a coincidence? Also they have accounted for the biggest carp of the year, and it was the same last year! It's these facts I find hard to ignore
Ok I can see some common ground there but let's go back to basics. Carp eat small fry and larger fish naturally. Isn't that a simple basic step to understanding what carp want to eat? Why do pellet companies use fishmeal not nutmeal when they could save shed loads of dollar using nut. They studied what makes fish eat more and grow faster......fishmeal! We are so lucky as anglers as we have so many things at our disposal to trick a carp into swallowing our rig. Even plastic hookbaits get a response but they wouldn't keep eating bits of plastic cos they know it offers nothing and is inedible. I guess what I'm trying to say is we have a basic formula which we know every carp in the world will pick up and eat more than once, it likes eating, it benefits from and it can be manipulated into so many different forms to keep on catching carp I.e fishmeal. You have to admit that it has been the one constant in carp fishing that has tripped up more carp than anything else. Make it digestible and you have a winner in cold water. If you could make it wriggle you would be top rod every year!! I'm not anti nut at all and an active nut with soluble ingredients has a place. One last note, if you think manky boilie is sitting around uneaten on lots of lakes round the country then you should see the amount of particles and maggots they found at linear when they had issues. At least a boilie normally floats off if not consumed.
I'm on one of the best well known boilie waters in the uk fished by a very broad band of anglers of all abilities and by my calculations the fishmeals and hnv bait have outfished all others by a huge margin.....is that a coincidence? Also they have accounted for the biggest carp of the year, and it was the same last year! It's these facts I find hard to ignore
In reply to Post #81
Some interesting reading in your last posts
Agree about the nut baits, something different
Deffo agree about the L030, something else at the time
And as for sweetness, one of the best, carp love sweet things, I learned this quite a while ago now from a pal who was a matchman. Three words - Hitchens wonder paste. A guy started to use a home made paste at Hayfield lakes, Rob Hitchens, he absolutely battered my mate and all the top match lads week in and week out, took all the money, to the point they all complained and wanted him banning lol, bags of fish
It was finally accepted though when they started to market it so everybody could use it. I was most definitely interested, admit ably he was doing bags and bags of smaller carp but carp are carp to an extent. The short of it is, got the paste mix, pellets and powder, tasted it, just like pure sugar and the powdered additive was just like...icing sugar, and all the ingredients came from his kitchen cupboard, the rest is history as they say
Some interesting reading in your last posts
Agree about the nut baits, something different
Deffo agree about the L030, something else at the time
And as for sweetness, one of the best, carp love sweet things, I learned this quite a while ago now from a pal who was a matchman. Three words - Hitchens wonder paste. A guy started to use a home made paste at Hayfield lakes, Rob Hitchens, he absolutely battered my mate and all the top match lads week in and week out, took all the money, to the point they all complained and wanted him banning lol, bags of fish
It was finally accepted though when they started to market it so everybody could use it. I was most definitely interested, admit ably he was doing bags and bags of smaller carp but carp are carp to an extent. The short of it is, got the paste mix, pellets and powder, tasted it, just like pure sugar and the powdered additive was just like...icing sugar, and all the ingredients came from his kitchen cupboard, the rest is history as they say
In reply to Post #35
Had to suppress post as link took the info over page width.
Here is viking text-
In reply to Post #34
Quote:
The digestibility of various diet components as protein sources for common carp, Cyprinus carpio L., at 500–800 g was studied by using an inert marker in the feed and collecting the faeces by stripping. Protein in fish meal (83.8%) and soybean meal (69.8%) were significantly more digestible than that of poultry meal (47.2%). Energy digestibility tests gave the following results: fish meal 93.4%, soybean meal 74.7% and poultry meal 63.9%. It was evident that the ability of carp to digest proteins is very high, and that they can utilize proteins as the main component of their diet.
From here: https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/abs/10.1046/j.1365-2109.1997.00825.x
And behold, nuts isnt too good:
Hazelnut meal was evaluated as an alternative protein source to fishmeal in diets for mirror carp, Cyprinus carpio (mean initial weight 18.24±0.08 g). Hazelnut meal was incorporated into diets at levels of 0 (control), 10%, 20%, 30%, or 40%. Diets were tested in triplicate for 12 weeks. Hazelnut meal beyond 10% significantly reduced growth performance in comparison to the control (p<0.05). Feed conversion and protein efficiency ratios were significantly lower in fish fed hazelnut meal higher than 20% (p<0.05). The feed intake, condition factor, and dress-out percentage were not affected by treatment but the viscero-somatic index significantly dropped in fish fed 40% hazelnut meal. High levels of hazelnut meal reduced body moisture and ash but increased lipid concentration. Apparent digestibility coefficients of dry matter and energy were lowest in the diet containing the highest level of hazelnut meal (p<0.05) but those of protein and lipid did not differ. Crude and digestible protein retention were significantly depressed at high hazelnut meal levels. Results suggest that up to 10% hazelnut meal can be incorporated in diets for young mirror carp without growth retardation.
From Here
viking link
Had to suppress post as link took the info over page width.
Here is viking text-
In reply to Post #34
Quote:
The digestibility of various diet components as protein sources for common carp, Cyprinus carpio L., at 500–800 g was studied by using an inert marker in the feed and collecting the faeces by stripping. Protein in fish meal (83.8%) and soybean meal (69.8%) were significantly more digestible than that of poultry meal (47.2%). Energy digestibility tests gave the following results: fish meal 93.4%, soybean meal 74.7% and poultry meal 63.9%. It was evident that the ability of carp to digest proteins is very high, and that they can utilize proteins as the main component of their diet.
From here: https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/abs/10.1046/j.1365-2109.1997.00825.x
And behold, nuts isnt too good:
Hazelnut meal was evaluated as an alternative protein source to fishmeal in diets for mirror carp, Cyprinus carpio (mean initial weight 18.24±0.08 g). Hazelnut meal was incorporated into diets at levels of 0 (control), 10%, 20%, 30%, or 40%. Diets were tested in triplicate for 12 weeks. Hazelnut meal beyond 10% significantly reduced growth performance in comparison to the control (p<0.05). Feed conversion and protein efficiency ratios were significantly lower in fish fed hazelnut meal higher than 20% (p<0.05). The feed intake, condition factor, and dress-out percentage were not affected by treatment but the viscero-somatic index significantly dropped in fish fed 40% hazelnut meal. High levels of hazelnut meal reduced body moisture and ash but increased lipid concentration. Apparent digestibility coefficients of dry matter and energy were lowest in the diet containing the highest level of hazelnut meal (p<0.05) but those of protein and lipid did not differ. Crude and digestible protein retention were significantly depressed at high hazelnut meal levels. Results suggest that up to 10% hazelnut meal can be incorporated in diets for young mirror carp without growth retardation.
From Here
viking link
In reply to Post #84
Good move, made the reading very tricky on my iPad, especially with my eyes
Good move, made the reading very tricky on my iPad, especially with my eyes
In reply to Post #84
So thats why the thread was difficult to read.
Sorry about that
So thats why the thread was difficult to read.
Sorry about that
In reply to Post #75
the sweetcorn post show's he's no flash in 'the pan' (as it were)
great thread this - nice to see some of the old faces posting with some interesting stuff.
hope you're good mart - long time no speak
the sweetcorn post show's he's no flash in 'the pan' (as it were)
great thread this - nice to see some of the old faces posting with some interesting stuff.
hope you're good mart - long time no speak
In reply to Post #87
So, if I read the post no 34 (or that of great blondini), I shouldn't be using poultry meals for baits as a substitute for fish meals. What's left then? I have a birdfood/milk/nut mix and a fishmeal. I wanted to make one extra with meat meals but those aren't properly digestable.
Should I go insect meal?
So, if I read the post no 34 (or that of great blondini), I shouldn't be using poultry meals for baits as a substitute for fish meals. What's left then? I have a birdfood/milk/nut mix and a fishmeal. I wanted to make one extra with meat meals but those aren't properly digestable.
Should I go insect meal?
In reply to Post #88
I've used meat and bone meal in long term baits and very successfully but only alongside fishmeal not as a replacement.
I've used meat and bone meal in long term baits and very successfully but only alongside fishmeal not as a replacement.
In reply to Post #89
My current recipe is this:
Poultry meal 25%
Liver meal 10%
CLO 15%
Corn meal 10%
Whey protein concentrate 5%
Pd fishmeal 15%
Silkworm meal 10%
I think th 25 percent would be to much. I thought about changing the poultry meal for insect meal (prosecto) but I understand that I no real good alternative.
My current recipe is this:
Poultry meal 25%
Liver meal 10%
CLO 15%
Corn meal 10%
Whey protein concentrate 5%
Pd fishmeal 15%
Silkworm meal 10%
I think th 25 percent would be to much. I thought about changing the poultry meal for insect meal (prosecto) but I understand that I no real good alternative.