In reply to Post #16
Yes they have been here a long time ..
But not in the uncontrolled numbers they are right now ,due to ,in many cases illegal reintroduction from private collections ,or similar..
There is a reason we had otter hunts and otter hounds ,..
People seem to forget ,they don't just take carp ,they also kill and destroy our native waterbirds and native fish stocks as well...
This so called balanced reintroduced has been so successful, that it has failed the indigenous species ,in fact ,there are so many male otters ,they tolerate each other, in real ,un messed around with nature ,this would never happen ..
Otter reintroduction.,is a ecological disaster, on many levels ...that does not even include carp or carp angling ,it's everything ,the circle of life has been ..distorted, and skewed in favour of a over protected apex predator ...its wrong on every level ,those involved should face the full force of the law ,it's a wildlife crime,rewilders are wildlife criminals bar none,they have no reality other,than a uni course,or degree..
I live it,I see it ...its depressing
Yes they have been here a long time ..
But not in the uncontrolled numbers they are right now ,due to ,in many cases illegal reintroduction from private collections ,or similar..
There is a reason we had otter hunts and otter hounds ,..
People seem to forget ,they don't just take carp ,they also kill and destroy our native waterbirds and native fish stocks as well...
This so called balanced reintroduced has been so successful, that it has failed the indigenous species ,in fact ,there are so many male otters ,they tolerate each other, in real ,un messed around with nature ,this would never happen ..
Otter reintroduction.,is a ecological disaster, on many levels ...that does not even include carp or carp angling ,it's everything ,the circle of life has been ..distorted, and skewed in favour of a over protected apex predator ...its wrong on every level ,those involved should face the full force of the law ,it's a wildlife crime,rewilders are wildlife criminals bar none,they have no reality other,than a uni course,or degree..
I live it,I see it ...its depressing
In reply to Post #17
You are very doom and gloom about most things. Yes they cause issues but I know of lakes in my area that aren't fenced, have thriving ecosystems, lots of bird life and otters are present. They are bigger pits in general but still not all is lost because of them. They still hold plenty of fish too. Further back towards how it was in carp fishing originally, before commercial fisheries and artificial stocking of fish.
Just because otters are hunting a lake does not mean the end of the world as you know it. You'll likely end up with a 60 acre low stock lake. The otters will hunt it down to a point that the energy exertion to catch a carp outweighs the energy gained eating it, and they'll just move on and hunt occasionally on the off chance.
Beavers, we have just had some released here, contained by fencing, right next to the main river. When they inevitably escape it'll be fun. But then they aren't going to change flood extents of larger return periods, and if they do, well the data and model needs updating anyway!
We don't live in a natural environment at all, there is 1 maybe 2 rivers in England that can be classed as truly natural and unmodified. What you see as natural is natural to NOW after human interventions for hundreds of years. Stop all abstraction, discharge and navigation and see how many rivers become seasonal or dry up completely.
You are very doom and gloom about most things. Yes they cause issues but I know of lakes in my area that aren't fenced, have thriving ecosystems, lots of bird life and otters are present. They are bigger pits in general but still not all is lost because of them. They still hold plenty of fish too. Further back towards how it was in carp fishing originally, before commercial fisheries and artificial stocking of fish.
Just because otters are hunting a lake does not mean the end of the world as you know it. You'll likely end up with a 60 acre low stock lake. The otters will hunt it down to a point that the energy exertion to catch a carp outweighs the energy gained eating it, and they'll just move on and hunt occasionally on the off chance.
Beavers, we have just had some released here, contained by fencing, right next to the main river. When they inevitably escape it'll be fun. But then they aren't going to change flood extents of larger return periods, and if they do, well the data and model needs updating anyway!
We don't live in a natural environment at all, there is 1 maybe 2 rivers in England that can be classed as truly natural and unmodified. What you see as natural is natural to NOW after human interventions for hundreds of years. Stop all abstraction, discharge and navigation and see how many rivers become seasonal or dry up completely.
In reply to Post #16
You have to also accept that back in years gone by all the way back to the ice age man has hunted
This hunting as kept the balance of nature in touch we are naturally the apex predator who hunt and kill those times have changed given other species time to recover and others to explode
If a farmer is having trouble with foxes stealing his chickens that he has bought and is breeding for whatever financial gain he sees fit he goes out and is perfectly entitled to shoot said fox
If badgers are causing a problem with tb to his cattle for his financial gain he goes and shoots them
If crows and magpies are killing the lambs in the field of the farmer and destroying his livestock they are shot
If an otter goes to a private fishery where it is someone's livelihood why shouldn't he have the same rights
The world is evolving we was hunter gatherer and kept things controlled this way also survival of the fittest now it's changed so far from what it was as we have evolved and life has become easier not doing what we use to do neglects nature and causes issues like this look at Asia look at Africa they are still hunter gatherer nations to an extent and there wildlife is in check
If we rewilded wolves in this country a better a you my last pound they would be maintained and definitely wouldn't be allowed to settle in the city's and surrounding suburbs
Banning fox hunting has caused an explosion in foxes which are vermin no one thought that one through properly nature needs balance and we are not doing are part in keeping the balance
And as for carp not being native your right the where brought here for food not sport so back to the farmer he protects his so why can't fish farmers protect theres
You have to also accept that back in years gone by all the way back to the ice age man has hunted
This hunting as kept the balance of nature in touch we are naturally the apex predator who hunt and kill those times have changed given other species time to recover and others to explode
If a farmer is having trouble with foxes stealing his chickens that he has bought and is breeding for whatever financial gain he sees fit he goes out and is perfectly entitled to shoot said fox
If badgers are causing a problem with tb to his cattle for his financial gain he goes and shoots them
If crows and magpies are killing the lambs in the field of the farmer and destroying his livestock they are shot
If an otter goes to a private fishery where it is someone's livelihood why shouldn't he have the same rights
The world is evolving we was hunter gatherer and kept things controlled this way also survival of the fittest now it's changed so far from what it was as we have evolved and life has become easier not doing what we use to do neglects nature and causes issues like this look at Asia look at Africa they are still hunter gatherer nations to an extent and there wildlife is in check
If we rewilded wolves in this country a better a you my last pound they would be maintained and definitely wouldn't be allowed to settle in the city's and surrounding suburbs
Banning fox hunting has caused an explosion in foxes which are vermin no one thought that one through properly nature needs balance and we are not doing are part in keeping the balance
And as for carp not being native your right the where brought here for food not sport so back to the farmer he protects his so why can't fish farmers protect theres
In reply to Post #18
Beavers have been reintroduced in small numbers over the last decade and are being monitored along with the effects they have on the environment. Those doing the research believe they will have a positive effect on the environment by building there dambs the water will back up and find a natural course not one created by man.
Beavers have been reintroduced in small numbers over the last decade and are being monitored along with the effects they have on the environment. Those doing the research believe they will have a positive effect on the environment by building there dambs the water will back up and find a natural course not one created by man.
In reply to Post #14
You may be surprised as breeding programs has already begun. Kytes and buzzard populations have increased due to breeding programs and they have already started breeding eagles. Wild bore have also been reintroduced some time ago.
You may be surprised as breeding programs has already begun. Kytes and buzzard populations have increased due to breeding programs and they have already started breeding eagles. Wild bore have also been reintroduced some time ago.
In reply to Post #19
Fish farmers can though protect themselves. With a fence because no one farms a 60 acre pit. It's small ponds. Easy to fence when you're making money and as you said yourself, these fish are for sport not food. Completely different to the farmer you have examples about. When the do gooders finally turn on angling, boy will fish farmers be out of business fast. We might stick a hook in a fish, but they breed fish for the sole purpose of being hurt. That'll be their view of it, look how they are about animals being farmed and killed for food.
A private fishery, someone profiteering from the desire of others to inflict pain on a living creature. I think most people would not agree they should be able to shoot and kill a protected species. Paying out their own pocket to protect their business sounds reasonable.
Bit like business owners aren't allowed to shoot anyone that tries to steal from them, they can hire security and put a fence up though.
Fish farmers can though protect themselves. With a fence because no one farms a 60 acre pit. It's small ponds. Easy to fence when you're making money and as you said yourself, these fish are for sport not food. Completely different to the farmer you have examples about. When the do gooders finally turn on angling, boy will fish farmers be out of business fast. We might stick a hook in a fish, but they breed fish for the sole purpose of being hurt. That'll be their view of it, look how they are about animals being farmed and killed for food.
A private fishery, someone profiteering from the desire of others to inflict pain on a living creature. I think most people would not agree they should be able to shoot and kill a protected species. Paying out their own pocket to protect their business sounds reasonable.
Bit like business owners aren't allowed to shoot anyone that tries to steal from them, they can hire security and put a fence up though.
In reply to Post #18
Doom and gloom,lol...no I just tell the truth of what's happened ..shame that some don't have the knowledge and understanding ,but hey all I can do is pass what I see and experience ..
The PAG book I helped to produce,with some of the most respected names around. ,do you think they are doom and gloom and lying..
Take note of what Goose said about what he saw ,not mine eyes ,but his eyes on the lakes and ressis,some of which I know ..
I know one thing ,after reading some of your posts Greekski,and that is you like to cause trouble or get a rise,however if you posted more in educational terms ,with some of the experience you say you have ,you'd come across better..
Educate ,not denigrate ,eh Greekski ...and I'm...out of this convo..
Doom and gloom,lol...no I just tell the truth of what's happened ..shame that some don't have the knowledge and understanding ,but hey all I can do is pass what I see and experience ..
The PAG book I helped to produce,with some of the most respected names around. ,do you think they are doom and gloom and lying..
Take note of what Goose said about what he saw ,not mine eyes ,but his eyes on the lakes and ressis,some of which I know ..
I know one thing ,after reading some of your posts Greekski,and that is you like to cause trouble or get a rise,however if you posted more in educational terms ,with some of the experience you say you have ,you'd come across better..
Educate ,not denigrate ,eh Greekski ...and I'm...out of this convo..
In reply to Post #22
Depends which country you live in if steal in some countries they will shoot you other countries will just chop your hand off ect ect nothing wrong with that in my eyes
People have fisheries which are there business that can't be fenced so people who illegally introduce otters or like the other week lynx into the wild are fine to do so and business just have to except that or be put under even more financial stress erecting fence around sites that vast in size ying and yang the ripple effect every action has a consequence
The lake I fish has shoots through the winter the pheasants are breed to shot for sport they can kill there predators foxes ect nothing wrong with that
Your right on the antis were all doomed if they start making head way so I think best keeping opinions of fish pain of public forums where you are basically give them bullets to fire in there search to ban this hobby of all ours
Depends which country you live in if steal in some countries they will shoot you other countries will just chop your hand off ect ect nothing wrong with that in my eyes
People have fisheries which are there business that can't be fenced so people who illegally introduce otters or like the other week lynx into the wild are fine to do so and business just have to except that or be put under even more financial stress erecting fence around sites that vast in size ying and yang the ripple effect every action has a consequence
The lake I fish has shoots through the winter the pheasants are breed to shot for sport they can kill there predators foxes ect nothing wrong with that
Your right on the antis were all doomed if they start making head way so I think best keeping opinions of fish pain of public forums where you are basically give them bullets to fire in there search to ban this hobby of all ours
In reply to Post #23
Try and give someone a glimmer of hope, it's not all the end of the world for his water. It'll just become a hard low stock pit. That suits plenty of anglers down to the ground.
That's the reality. Not that it'll become a lifeless waterbody with no ecosystem which is what you put across. Different, yes. Damaged, yes. But it still exists. I've seen much more devastation done by the hands of man to lakes and rivers.
Otters are incredibly intelligent, they won't wipe out a food source as then they don't have future food stocks in their territory, loads of apex predators do the same.
Fact is i'm trying to educate, and you don't/wont see that. Not my fault.
I have first handed witnessed otters hunting the lake I was fishing, seagulls attacking them the entire time. My friend caught a carp two hours after the otters hunted his swim! I've personally fished lakes where otters visited daily, they built a home in the riverbank behind my swim because of how well I got it going and the fish activity in it. I still caught a few of the remaining carp and tench and bream aplenty. I also never found a carcass of a carp in 2.5yrs, despite seeing them active daily. This was a 5 acre lake in a busy public park and I knew the rangers very well. Not one carp carcass was found.
To the OP, things will change but it isn't the end of the water. It's always horrific and disheartening to see otters arrive and kill fish. Been on the end of it plenty of times. But the world isn't ending so just keep going.
Try and give someone a glimmer of hope, it's not all the end of the world for his water. It'll just become a hard low stock pit. That suits plenty of anglers down to the ground.
That's the reality. Not that it'll become a lifeless waterbody with no ecosystem which is what you put across. Different, yes. Damaged, yes. But it still exists. I've seen much more devastation done by the hands of man to lakes and rivers.
Otters are incredibly intelligent, they won't wipe out a food source as then they don't have future food stocks in their territory, loads of apex predators do the same.
Fact is i'm trying to educate, and you don't/wont see that. Not my fault.
I have first handed witnessed otters hunting the lake I was fishing, seagulls attacking them the entire time. My friend caught a carp two hours after the otters hunted his swim! I've personally fished lakes where otters visited daily, they built a home in the riverbank behind my swim because of how well I got it going and the fish activity in it. I still caught a few of the remaining carp and tench and bream aplenty. I also never found a carcass of a carp in 2.5yrs, despite seeing them active daily. This was a 5 acre lake in a busy public park and I knew the rangers very well. Not one carp carcass was found.
To the OP, things will change but it isn't the end of the water. It's always horrific and disheartening to see otters arrive and kill fish. Been on the end of it plenty of times. But the world isn't ending so just keep going.
In reply to Post #25
"Otters are incredibly intelligent, they won't wipe out a food source as then they don't have future food stocks in their territory, loads of apex predators do the same"
They're predatory animals, not farmers or gamekeepers, once they've decimated a food supply, they move onto the next. Attributing crop rotation or what have you to some sort of super intelligence is naive.
Or do you think they fast occasionally to conserve future food supplies ?
"Otters are incredibly intelligent, they won't wipe out a food source as then they don't have future food stocks in their territory, loads of apex predators do the same"
They're predatory animals, not farmers or gamekeepers, once they've decimated a food supply, they move onto the next. Attributing crop rotation or what have you to some sort of super intelligence is naive.
Or do you think they fast occasionally to conserve future food supplies ?
In reply to Post #25
I share the water with loads of beavers & a few otters here close to where I live.
Beavers are everywhere - I have never heard of anyone mention they eat fish & I have never seen then chasing / hunting fish as I think they're too slow. The don't always make dams - they will make lodges too which are basically massive snags made out of old branches. The do take down trees but they seem to manage the area & there are still loads of trees around the areas where they live - I think they prefer dead branches over live ones. They aren't particularly clever animals & if they are annoyed at you they will swim up & splash their tails at you - sounds like a crashing fish & can be annoying if you're trying to sleep. Nobody here seems them as an issue (public & anglers) - I believe that if a farmer has issues with them damning a stream, they just break it down (Lots of videos on youtube - a weird kind of AMSR following)
Otters are a bit more elusive but I am seeing more of them over the last couple of years including some in the city. I have caught one carp that had tail damage from one - I didn't realise but someone from the Uk who fishes the Cotswold Water Park told me when I showed them a picture. I have caught carp from swims where they have been hunting just a few minutes before & from what I can tell, they are more interested in any crayfish than fish - the ones I have watched usually come back with crays & when I come across their preferred area's / eating spots, I have only seen bits of cray shells & no fish bones yet. They seem to love swan mussels too. They seem to be very territorial & I will only see a single adult & a couple of pups in the area. They are on a smaller local pond & I have caught plenty of carp from it - there may be more food here but there seems to be a balance. I watched one follow a cormorant around for over an hour last year - it was proper comedy as it was just behind it like a benny hill sketch - every time the cormorant turned around the otter dipped beneath the surface. As mentioned - they seem to be quite clever.
RE other animals - we get the occasional bear up north of the city - they are more akin to foxes as a PITA - you don't leave food out at all as they are scavengers & will always prefer an easy meal. There are loads of them out west & you hear of the odd trouble but that is usually when they have been startled or have their young near by. We have had a few sightings of cougars in the area over the last few years - they are very elusive & will avoid humans completely if they can. I don't think I have ever heard of any attacks.
I share the water with loads of beavers & a few otters here close to where I live.
Beavers are everywhere - I have never heard of anyone mention they eat fish & I have never seen then chasing / hunting fish as I think they're too slow. The don't always make dams - they will make lodges too which are basically massive snags made out of old branches. The do take down trees but they seem to manage the area & there are still loads of trees around the areas where they live - I think they prefer dead branches over live ones. They aren't particularly clever animals & if they are annoyed at you they will swim up & splash their tails at you - sounds like a crashing fish & can be annoying if you're trying to sleep. Nobody here seems them as an issue (public & anglers) - I believe that if a farmer has issues with them damning a stream, they just break it down (Lots of videos on youtube - a weird kind of AMSR following)
Otters are a bit more elusive but I am seeing more of them over the last couple of years including some in the city. I have caught one carp that had tail damage from one - I didn't realise but someone from the Uk who fishes the Cotswold Water Park told me when I showed them a picture. I have caught carp from swims where they have been hunting just a few minutes before & from what I can tell, they are more interested in any crayfish than fish - the ones I have watched usually come back with crays & when I come across their preferred area's / eating spots, I have only seen bits of cray shells & no fish bones yet. They seem to love swan mussels too. They seem to be very territorial & I will only see a single adult & a couple of pups in the area. They are on a smaller local pond & I have caught plenty of carp from it - there may be more food here but there seems to be a balance. I watched one follow a cormorant around for over an hour last year - it was proper comedy as it was just behind it like a benny hill sketch - every time the cormorant turned around the otter dipped beneath the surface. As mentioned - they seem to be quite clever.
RE other animals - we get the occasional bear up north of the city - they are more akin to foxes as a PITA - you don't leave food out at all as they are scavengers & will always prefer an easy meal. There are loads of them out west & you hear of the odd trouble but that is usually when they have been startled or have their young near by. We have had a few sightings of cougars in the area over the last few years - they are very elusive & will avoid humans completely if they can. I don't think I have ever heard of any attacks.
In reply to Post #1
In reply to Post #26
As I said previously, when the exertion of energy to catch prey outweighs the energy gained they move on, from the water or to a new food source. This naturally allows food sources to regenerate and be available again in the future.
But yes, they seem to be more intelligent than some of the forum members at times. They don't piss on their doorstep, they hunt from the extremities of their territory to the middle, normally where the main holt is. I've watched them swim through lakes full of fish to a preferred hunting ground for that day. Eat where/what is plentiful and all that.
It's extremely naive to think these animals are not highly intelligent and complex tbh. Believing they are some mindless animal that just eats every last bit of food before moving on, even if it means exerting 100x the energy to catch it than they gain from eating it, can't even be called naive, it's beyond that.
As I said previously, when the exertion of energy to catch prey outweighs the energy gained they move on, from the water or to a new food source. This naturally allows food sources to regenerate and be available again in the future.
But yes, they seem to be more intelligent than some of the forum members at times. They don't piss on their doorstep, they hunt from the extremities of their territory to the middle, normally where the main holt is. I've watched them swim through lakes full of fish to a preferred hunting ground for that day. Eat where/what is plentiful and all that.
It's extremely naive to think these animals are not highly intelligent and complex tbh. Believing they are some mindless animal that just eats every last bit of food before moving on, even if it means exerting 100x the energy to catch it than they gain from eating it, can't even be called naive, it's beyond that.
In reply to Post #29
Look at the wildlife on a lake with otters compared to one that is fenced off...
The otter lake is almost barren.
Look at the wildlife on a lake with otters compared to one that is fenced off...
The otter lake is almost barren.
In reply to Post #30
Unfenced club lake of around 16 acres. Maybe 15-20 carp left. Otters spotted regularly but tend to just pass through. Has a similar amount of coots, moorhens, mallards, swans, geese than the fenced lake next door. The tufties prefer the unfenced lake over winter most years.
The lake has recovered now otters don't hunt it as regularly, just use it as part of their route. You wouldn't know otters were there apart from the lake of bigger fish or seeing them. It's taken it a few years.
80 acre pit up the the road, unfenced, otters there regularly, still has a good head of carp and when I walked it this winter there were 100s if not 1000s of birds of all species. Rich and flourishing ecosystem still.
5 acres country park like I mentioned earlier, rich ecosystem still.
The way you lot speak about the effects of otters is that once they turn up the entire ecosystem does and you're left with a muddy, barren place. No life, no nothing. It just isn't the case. I have more first hand examples if you want them.
OP, like I said the fishing will change but the lake won't die completely like some are telling you. It'll be different and in years will recover as the otters move on. Probably end up with more weed as the stock gets reduced. It won't end up a muddy bomb hole.
Unfenced club lake of around 16 acres. Maybe 15-20 carp left. Otters spotted regularly but tend to just pass through. Has a similar amount of coots, moorhens, mallards, swans, geese than the fenced lake next door. The tufties prefer the unfenced lake over winter most years.
The lake has recovered now otters don't hunt it as regularly, just use it as part of their route. You wouldn't know otters were there apart from the lake of bigger fish or seeing them. It's taken it a few years.
80 acre pit up the the road, unfenced, otters there regularly, still has a good head of carp and when I walked it this winter there were 100s if not 1000s of birds of all species. Rich and flourishing ecosystem still.
5 acres country park like I mentioned earlier, rich ecosystem still.
The way you lot speak about the effects of otters is that once they turn up the entire ecosystem does and you're left with a muddy, barren place. No life, no nothing. It just isn't the case. I have more first hand examples if you want them.
OP, like I said the fishing will change but the lake won't die completely like some are telling you. It'll be different and in years will recover as the otters move on. Probably end up with more weed as the stock gets reduced. It won't end up a muddy bomb hole.