Hi all, sorry for the length of this post, but the information is all relevant. I am a seasoned angler of 40 years plus and have enjoyed all types of fishing in this time. I am predominantly a carp angler and have fine tuned my tactics over the years, both with ideas of my own and information gleaned from the famous and those not so famous, from books, magazines internet etc. etc. I'm not gonna boast, but the main method I use catches me a hell of a lot of fish when others around me seem to struggle. However, I have come up against a problem, which is the result of the method that I use, and although I'm catching a lot of carp I need to change things. The problem is, that the fish I'm catching seem to be suffering mouth damage in the scissors section of the mouth - sometimes on one side, sometimes on both. I have been using propolis on the damage and carp disinfectant where appropriate, but I'm not prepared to carry on with the damage that I'm seeing. I fish all types of lakes and catch all sizes of carp. So, I'm using 10ft 3lb test curve rods, 16lb fluorocarbon mainline, 2 blobs (about the size of a large pea) of heavy metal putty on the mainline about 8 inches and then 16 inches above an 18 inch length of anti tangle tubing (to protect the carps flanks), anti tangle tubing plugs into a tail rubber which attaches to an inline pear lead (3oz or 4oz). I have my rods on alarms, with heavyish bobbins that register the bite quickly, and have my lines reasonably tight, but not bow string tight, as I like to have the line resting on the bottom about 4 feet from my lead. I have my rod butts sometimes on the floor (due to rock hard banks and not wanting to smash banksticks in - scaring all the carp away and naffing off every angler in the vicinity) and sometimes in a butt holder of some description. I fish big pit reels with baitrunners, with the baitrunner clutch set anywhere from no give ( if anywhere near bushes, reeds et) to fairly loose if in open water. My mainline is then threaded through the anti tangle tubing etc and attached to my rig via a 6 turn full blood knot to a size 8 swivel that plugs into the lead. My rig consists of a size 6 or 8 wide gape micro barbed hook or similar sharpened variety, tied onto soft 20lb braid (varying between 4 inches and 6 inches) via a 4 turn grinner knot. The braid is then tied to the size 8 swivel via the same knot. Both knots have a blob of rig glue applied. I whip a hair onto the hook using fine sewing thread material, and the hair leaves the hook opposite the hook point. The whipping uses a small blob of rig glue. I then have a one inch piece of shrink tubing which covers the hair whipping and the hook knot and extends the length of hook by about 1 cm in a gentle curve (line aligner style). I solely use PVA bags, which contain my lead and rig, which are separated by 2/3 the length of the rig that I am using. The bag is filled with pellets, boiles and various powders / groundbait and other goodies that the carp find attractive. Due to the effectiveness of my rig and boilie attachment, coupled with the PVA bag, most of my catches are nailed in the bottom of the mouth somewhere and rarely come out - in fact I only lose one or two fish in every hundred runs. The hook holds sometimes can be seen to have moved a bit initially, but this results in only small scratches or tears, which can easily heal with the aid of the carp care products that I use. I don't play the fish hard and don't drag them out of snags or reeds etc, although I will put some pressure on them to keep them out of said snags or reeds etc so that they don't damage themselves or get snarled up in their bid for freedom. I use a 42 inch landing net which I use to carry them to the unhooking mat, making sure that the line from the rod tip to the rig has slack line so that it doesn't pull on the fish whilst being transported. I am very proficient at unhooking them once on the bank and the hooks are removed with relative ease and no excessive damage. So, as I said at the beginning, I am catching a hell of a lot of carp with my methods (not gonna give my hook baits or bag mix away, as to be honest these are probably my biggest edge) but the mouth damage in the scissors is not acceptable to me, so something has to change. All thoughts welcome and feel free to ask questions and give helpful opinions. Tight lines to you all and thanks in advance 🙂👍🏻
In reply to Post #1
Whilst I have no experience in this reading the article below by Jason Hayward it seems (to me) a mono frigtener like Frank Warwick publicised a long while ago may help as you seem to be fishing so effectively that they don't realise they've been hooked
Whilst I have no experience in this reading the article below by Jason Hayward it seems (to me) a mono frigtener like Frank Warwick publicised a long while ago may help as you seem to be fishing so effectively that they don't realise they've been hooked
In reply to Post #3
frigtener ???
frigtener ???
In reply to Post #1
Is the 20lb braid hooklink a purpose made hooklink braid?
Either way check the diameter - Hooklink braids tend to be thicker in diameter so as not to cut into the the fish's mouth. If might be that whatever you are using is too thin.
Only other thing I can suggest is if you're not dropping the lead, is the lead bouncing around during the fight perhaps? Might be worth dropping the lead as an experiment to see if it changes things.
Is the 20lb braid hooklink a purpose made hooklink braid?
Either way check the diameter - Hooklink braids tend to be thicker in diameter so as not to cut into the the fish's mouth. If might be that whatever you are using is too thin.
Only other thing I can suggest is if you're not dropping the lead, is the lead bouncing around during the fight perhaps? Might be worth dropping the lead as an experiment to see if it changes things.
Also, try to unhook in the net if possible (quick change swivels good for this if you cannot physically remove the hook from the fish whilst in the water), and even better if you can get the fish into a sling to move it with the rod taken out of the equation.
In reply to Post #1
You're using a bolt rig and heavy leads, are you fishing in silt?
Sounds to me like the fish are turning to the left or right to be hooked in the scissors and not levelling up. What bait are you using?
Try using a lighter lead and longer hooklink but then you contradict what you are saying by, they are mostly hooked in the bottom lip?
Are you using the twig
You're using a bolt rig and heavy leads, are you fishing in silt?
Sounds to me like the fish are turning to the left or right to be hooked in the scissors and not levelling up. What bait are you using?
Try using a lighter lead and longer hooklink but then you contradict what you are saying by, they are mostly hooked in the bottom lip?
Are you using the twig
In reply to Post #5
Yes, it is a purpose made supple braid hooklink material, made by one of the biggest carp Kompanies out there. I would assume that the Kompany that makes it are well aware of the dangers of supple braid and would hope that this is reflected in the diameter.
It's a good idea to give the dropping the lead a go as an experiment, but can't see it as a long term solution, as it could cost up to £70 a week in leads. It would also mean there could be upwards of 400 leads a year discarded on the lake bed ...
Yes, it is a purpose made supple braid hooklink material, made by one of the biggest carp Kompanies out there. I would assume that the Kompany that makes it are well aware of the dangers of supple braid and would hope that this is reflected in the diameter.
It's a good idea to give the dropping the lead a go as an experiment, but can't see it as a long term solution, as it could cost up to £70 a week in leads. It would also mean there could be upwards of 400 leads a year discarded on the lake bed ...
In reply to Post #8
Not sure how much you're paying for your leads, but even an expensive one at £2 means you're catching 35+ fish a week - are you sure it's you that's doing the damage?
Not sure how much you're paying for your leads, but even an expensive one at £2 means you're catching 35+ fish a week - are you sure it's you that's doing the damage?
In reply to Post #7
Sometimes I fish in silt, but the PVA bag usually sits on the top as I use quite a lot of buoyant baits in my mix, to give a fizzing / rising effect.
The fish are not usually hooked in the scissors (although they are sometimes), but most often they are hooked plum in the bottom lip. I'm using bottom bait boilies as hookbaits.
I'll give the lighter leads a go, but the whole point of the heavy leads is to drive the hook home once the carp has picked it up and it has got some sort of hold (maybe I should contact Frank Warwick, as he is always going on about 4oz and 5oz leads for this very reason)
Sometimes I fish in silt, but the PVA bag usually sits on the top as I use quite a lot of buoyant baits in my mix, to give a fizzing / rising effect.
The fish are not usually hooked in the scissors (although they are sometimes), but most often they are hooked plum in the bottom lip. I'm using bottom bait boilies as hookbaits.
I'll give the lighter leads a go, but the whole point of the heavy leads is to drive the hook home once the carp has picked it up and it has got some sort of hold (maybe I should contact Frank Warwick, as he is always going on about 4oz and 5oz leads for this very reason)
In reply to Post #6
Thanks, I'll try this and see if it makes any difference. To be honest I don't mind cutting through the line or hooklink, as I usually bin a rig after I've caught one anyway, as these super sharp hooks blunt over pretty easily.
Thanks, I'll try this and see if it makes any difference. To be honest I don't mind cutting through the line or hooklink, as I usually bin a rig after I've caught one anyway, as these super sharp hooks blunt over pretty easily.
In reply to Post #9
The Kompany that makes the leads are on sale in my tackle shop for around £2.25. And you're right, as sometimes I can land 30 + fish in a week if I get everything right and the carp are on a good old munch up.
But as I said, I'm not sure what's causing it, as I'm not doing anything out of the ordinary, but I put all the tiny percentages together and it seems to work. Maybe I'm just highlighting an issue that many carp anglers are faced with, but they just don't say anything and move on. I have noticed that lots of photographs of carp in the magazines and on the net tend to have the head / mouth facing slightly away from the camera ... maybe for this very reason ???
Maybe I'll have to get on to some rock hard waters just to cut down on costs dump all the leads and cut the hooklimks in the landing net ££££££
The Kompany that makes the leads are on sale in my tackle shop for around £2.25. And you're right, as sometimes I can land 30 + fish in a week if I get everything right and the carp are on a good old munch up.
But as I said, I'm not sure what's causing it, as I'm not doing anything out of the ordinary, but I put all the tiny percentages together and it seems to work. Maybe I'm just highlighting an issue that many carp anglers are faced with, but they just don't say anything and move on. I have noticed that lots of photographs of carp in the magazines and on the net tend to have the head / mouth facing slightly away from the camera ... maybe for this very reason ???
Maybe I'll have to get on to some rock hard waters just to cut down on costs
dump all the leads and cut the hooklimks in the landing net ££££££
In reply to Post #10
My point is, it is probably buried in the silt causing more resistance and potential mouth damage. I know a couple of very silty waters around me and as a consequence a lot of the carp have the sides of their mouths missing, poor show really and not something we should be doing
My point is, it is probably buried in the silt causing more resistance and potential mouth damage. I know a couple of very silty waters around me and as a consequence a lot of the carp have the sides of their mouths missing, poor show really and not something we should be doing
I have been thinking about this some more, maybe a short length of shrink tube in a line aligner style may help to stop any braid/fluorocarbon cutting into the mouth if the damage is close to the hook hold.
In reply to Post #2
Thanks, from what I can glean from his article this would mean dropping hooklinks down to 2 or 3 inches, as I'm already using hooklinks of 4 inches for 50 % of the time. Also, my hookholds are usually in the bottom lip (although sometimes they can be in the scissors), and the hookhold usually stays firm and doesn't move or slip, so the scissors aren't ripping due to poor hookholds.
I don't really want to reduce my catching potential, as I like a bend in my rod, but there is something happening that is causing damage to the sides/ scissors of the mouths and so I need to fathom out the cause and change this particular part of my method.
So far, dropping the lead as an experiment is a good idea, as this allows me to fish exactly the same method up until the hook has taken hold and hence would not affect my catch rates.
Thanks, from what I can glean from his article this would mean dropping hooklinks down to 2 or 3 inches, as I'm already using hooklinks of 4 inches for 50 % of the time. Also, my hookholds are usually in the bottom lip (although sometimes they can be in the scissors), and the hookhold usually stays firm and doesn't move or slip, so the scissors aren't ripping due to poor hookholds.
I don't really want to reduce my catching potential, as I like a bend in my rod, but there is something happening that is causing damage to the sides/ scissors of the mouths and so I need to fathom out the cause and change this particular part of my method.
So far, dropping the lead as an experiment is a good idea, as this allows me to fish exactly the same method up until the hook has taken hold and hence would not affect my catch rates.
In reply to Post #13
I understand what you are saying and can see that this could be an issue, but when I am fishing the silty waters, if I reel in without having a run there is no plugging or difficulty in retrieving the lead and rig. As I said, I think it's because I use lots of buoyant baits in my PVA bags and hence the bags sit nicely on top of the silt.
Also, the problem still exists on predominantly gravelly bottoms or choddy bottoms, so I don't think it's the make up of the lake bed, it's something to do with my set up from rod and reel down to hair stop.
I understand what you are saying and can see that this could be an issue, but when I am fishing the silty waters, if I reel in without having a run there is no plugging or difficulty in retrieving the lead and rig. As I said, I think it's because I use lots of buoyant baits in my PVA bags and hence the bags sit nicely on top of the silt.
Also, the problem still exists on predominantly gravelly bottoms or choddy bottoms, so I don't think it's the make up of the lake bed, it's something to do with my set up from rod and reel down to hair stop.
In reply to Post #14
As I said in my overly long post, I use an inch of shrink tube line aligner style, to cover my hair whipping and hook knot. This extends my hook by about 1 cm in a gentle curve that obviously bends once the fish has been hooked.
I think what you are saying makes sense, but means that I would need to extend the shrink tube further by an inch or two. If this is the case the this means that the braid must be damaging the mouth, but the braid is a supple hooklink material supplied by one of the biggest carp Kompanies out there. I will give this a go as an experiment to see if it reduces the damage, but long term I don't want to change the effectiveness of my method and so if it is the supple braid causing the issue, then I need an alternative material that behaves just like my current supple hooklink material, but that doesn't damage the sides of their mouths.
As I said in my overly long post, I use an inch of shrink tube line aligner style, to cover my hair whipping and hook knot. This extends my hook by about 1 cm in a gentle curve that obviously bends once the fish has been hooked.
I think what you are saying makes sense, but means that I would need to extend the shrink tube further by an inch or two. If this is the case the this means that the braid must be damaging the mouth, but the braid is a supple hooklink material supplied by one of the biggest carp Kompanies out there. I will give this a go as an experiment to see if it reduces the damage, but long term I don't want to change the effectiveness of my method and so if it is the supple braid causing the issue, then I need an alternative material that behaves just like my current supple hooklink material, but that doesn't damage the sides of their mouths.
In reply to Post #7
No, I'm not using the twig as the club I belong to has banned it. There again, they have banned a lot of things. Funny thing is they have banned some things on some waters that they own and not on other waters that they own - don't get me started on bans
Ok, just one then - they have banned all pre baiting of any kind of bait, on all club waters. I can only presume that they want to keep the fish as hungry as possible so that when an angler drops any bait in the water the fish are queueing up to get caught
No, I'm not using the twig as the club I belong to has banned it. There again, they have banned a lot of things. Funny thing is they have banned some things on some waters that they own and not on other waters that they own - don't get me started on bans
Ok, just one then - they have banned all pre baiting of any kind of bait, on all club waters. I can only presume that they want to keep the fish as hungry as possible so that when an angler drops any bait in the water the fish are queueing up to get caught
It sounds like you are fishing runs waters to be catching as many as that week in week out. They are notorious for fish having mouth damage in places like that too, especially if it is/was a match type water . If you know it's you causing the damage then try swapping over to a coated braid , lighten up your lead and use a tighter bait runner to set the hook rather than a bigger lead. If it's your method that is causing the damage you need to alter it, even if you don't want to.
And banning pre baiting isn't actually that unusual. It's to prevent too much bait going in and potentially harming water quality as it breaks down
And banning pre baiting isn't actually that unusual. It's to prevent too much bait going in and potentially harming water quality as it breaks down
In reply to Post #4
I must have got the name wrong!
Basically it is a piece of thick mono that you put horizontal through the aligner just after the hook eye so you create the look of an anchor - about 30mm depending on hook size.
It is meant to ‘scare' the fish and keep hook pointing down. I have used it for different reasons but for you it would stop the hook being able to travel to the scissors of the mouth.
Unless I have made all this up I'm sure someone on here will be able to get some kind of link to who and where this was published!
I must have got the name wrong!
Basically it is a piece of thick mono that you put horizontal through the aligner just after the hook eye so you create the look of an anchor - about 30mm depending on hook size.
It is meant to ‘scare' the fish and keep hook pointing down. I have used it for different reasons but for you it would stop the hook being able to travel to the scissors of the mouth.
Unless I have made all this up I'm sure someone on here will be able to get some kind of link to who and where this was published!
In reply to Post #20
You certainly haven't made it up
You certainly haven't made it up
In reply to Post #20
I've seen Frank Warwick using the thick mono arrangement above the hook as you describe, I think he calls it an anchor. Always thought it would be fine if the hook goes in point down but if it goes in point up then the mono would actually prevent the hook from flipping and catching. Could also lead to the hook resting point up on the lake bed as it lands.
I was always very dubious about the ‘experts' interpreting hook holds and making changes to rigs to get that magic bottom lip hold. There is so much going on in that vortex and so many influencing factors. The way the fish approaches, the way you have baited, the way that particular fish feeds, the chod and detritus on the bottom. Too simple to say if the hook goes in the scissors lengthen the hair by 3mm or whatever waffle the likes of Kevin Nash would have you believe. I'm more than happy with a hook in the scissors if it holds nicely.
To the OP on this thread. What size fish are we talking? If they are smaller young fish with soft or bashed up mouths I would suspect the 4oz lead bopping about 4 inches from the hook may be causing it to move around in the hold.
I've seen Frank Warwick using the thick mono arrangement above the hook as you describe, I think he calls it an anchor. Always thought it would be fine if the hook goes in point down but if it goes in point up then the mono would actually prevent the hook from flipping and catching. Could also lead to the hook resting point up on the lake bed as it lands.
I was always very dubious about the ‘experts' interpreting hook holds and making changes to rigs to get that magic bottom lip hold. There is so much going on in that vortex and so many influencing factors. The way the fish approaches, the way you have baited, the way that particular fish feeds, the chod and detritus on the bottom. Too simple to say if the hook goes in the scissors lengthen the hair by 3mm or whatever waffle the likes of Kevin Nash would have you believe. I'm more than happy with a hook in the scissors if it holds nicely.
To the OP on this thread. What size fish are we talking? If they are smaller young fish with soft or bashed up mouths I would suspect the 4oz lead bopping about 4 inches from the hook may be causing it to move around in the hold.
In reply to Post #19
Hi there, based on how many carp I'm catching I would class most of the lakes I'm fishing as runs waters, but yet most of the guys fishing them are moaning that they haven't caught anything or saying things like 'Oh it's not fishing well this year'
Anyway, I totally agree that I need to alter my method, but if you read my rather long post, I don't honestly think that I'm doing anything out of the ordinary. If it is the use of the soft supple braid, then why do this huge Kompany sell it and what are they expecting us to use it for ??? I will try a coated braid though ...
I am going to experiment with all of the advice given, so I will lighten the lead, but again many well known carp anglers use 4 oz and 5 oz leads and actually advocate their use - so are they just not reporting mouth damage ???
I will also tighten up my baitrunner clutch, but fear that the initial run on a tight clutch may cause damage as described. Again though, there must be thousands of carp anglers fishing tight baitrunner clutches when fishing near snags or reeds etc - again, are they just not bothered about mouth damage ???
Personally, and only my opinion, I think that carp anglers far and wide must be causing mouth damage with some of the methods described, but they just see it as part of the process, whereas I'm prepared to change whatever it is that's causing the issue, in the name of carp welfare. Maybe certain components of end tackle should carry warnings - for example on the supple braid it may be that it should state 'only to be used with leads of 2oz or less' or 'in conjunction with a drop off lead'.
I'd like some of the big names to answer questions like these on their podcasts etc, but I'm pretty sure that money talks and no one would be prepared to discuss this side of our sport.
oh and I can agree that pre baiting can ruin water quality if too much bait is going in, but banning it on all waters seems a bit over the top - there is one water that I fish, that only sees one other carp angler a week or maybe two if it's a bank holiday. However, I suppose it negates the need to police the different lakes that have different rules.
Rant over and thanks for your input - much appreciated
'
Hi there, based on how many carp I'm catching I would class most of the lakes I'm fishing as runs waters, but yet most of the guys fishing them are moaning that they haven't caught anything or saying things like 'Oh it's not fishing well this year'
Anyway, I totally agree that I need to alter my method, but if you read my rather long post, I don't honestly think that I'm doing anything out of the ordinary. If it is the use of the soft supple braid, then why do this huge Kompany sell it and what are they expecting us to use it for ??? I will try a coated braid though ...
I am going to experiment with all of the advice given, so I will lighten the lead, but again many well known carp anglers use 4 oz and 5 oz leads and actually advocate their use - so are they just not reporting mouth damage ???
I will also tighten up my baitrunner clutch, but fear that the initial run on a tight clutch may cause damage as described. Again though, there must be thousands of carp anglers fishing tight baitrunner clutches when fishing near snags or reeds etc - again, are they just not bothered about mouth damage ???
Personally, and only my opinion, I think that carp anglers far and wide must be causing mouth damage with some of the methods described, but they just see it as part of the process, whereas I'm prepared to change whatever it is that's causing the issue, in the name of carp welfare. Maybe certain components of end tackle should carry warnings - for example on the supple braid it may be that it should state 'only to be used with leads of 2oz or less' or 'in conjunction with a drop off lead'.
I'd like some of the big names to answer questions like these on their podcasts etc, but I'm pretty sure that money talks and no one would be prepared to discuss this side of our sport.
oh and I can agree that pre baiting can ruin water quality if too much bait is going in, but banning it on all waters seems a bit over the top - there is one water that I fish, that only sees one other carp angler a week or maybe two if it's a bank holiday. However, I suppose it negates the need to police the different lakes that have different rules.
Rant over and thanks for your input - much appreciated
'
In reply to Post #20
I know the rig you mean, and it is called 'the anchor rig'. If you note the part in my post about hookholds, I state that most of my hooks are in the bottom lip (although not 100% of the time), but I am still getting this mouth damage. From my own thoughts, and the great advice from other carp anglers, it seems that it may be the soft supple braid that I am using that causes the damage when the carp is making a bid for freedom, or when the 4oz or 5oz leads are banging / swinging around during the fight.
If this is the case, then why do carp companies sell soft braid without advice on lead size etc and why do many anglers advocate the use of large leads without advice on how to negate mouth damage. It can't just be me that is having this problem. so it must be that other carp anglers are just cracking on as they see it as part of the process, or are just not bothered. I hope it's neither, but fear the worst.
I know the rig you mean, and it is called 'the anchor rig'. If you note the part in my post about hookholds, I state that most of my hooks are in the bottom lip (although not 100% of the time), but I am still getting this mouth damage. From my own thoughts, and the great advice from other carp anglers, it seems that it may be the soft supple braid that I am using that causes the damage when the carp is making a bid for freedom, or when the 4oz or 5oz leads are banging / swinging around during the fight.
If this is the case, then why do carp companies sell soft braid without advice on lead size etc and why do many anglers advocate the use of large leads without advice on how to negate mouth damage. It can't just be me that is having this problem. so it must be that other carp anglers are just cracking on as they see it as part of the process, or are just not bothered. I hope it's neither, but fear the worst.
In reply to Post #22
In my post I describe that my hookholds are usually in the bottom lip, nut not always and indeed some are hooked in the scissors. I also mention that I am happy with my hookholds, as they stay planted wherever they find a hold and I am only losing 1 or 2 fish in say every hundred runs. Due to this, I don't think it's the hookholds that are causing the issue, as the damage seems to be occurring on one or both sides and sometimes on the opposite side to the hookhold.
Some of the fish are small stockies, but this is due to my club having an odd policy where they stock the smaller fish in with the bigger carp (even though some of these lakes have a smaller stock pond right next to them), so there is a mix of 2 or 3lb carp, lots of doubles and some high doubles and twenties. Most of the fish that I'm catching are suffering some mouth damage at the sides, but as you say the smaller fish do seem to be more affected.
However, it's not the hookhold that's causing the damage so it must be something else.
I fear that it's the supple braid in conjunction with the 4oz or 5oz lead, which I will change on my next trip out.
As I stated in a few of my other replies, I fear that this is not solely a problem for me, but one that is far and wide and the damage is just not being highlighted. In my opinion only, I think that lots of the end tackles that we are using are not as fish friendly as the media will have us believe, but that it is just something that is 'not talked about'.
It would be interesting to see if any brave carpies out there might raise their hand and say that they indeed suffer the same problem. I'm sure that I'm not the only one using 4oz or 5oz leads with short supple hooklinks - or am I ???
In my post I describe that my hookholds are usually in the bottom lip, nut not always and indeed some are hooked in the scissors. I also mention that I am happy with my hookholds, as they stay planted wherever they find a hold and I am only losing 1 or 2 fish in say every hundred runs. Due to this, I don't think it's the hookholds that are causing the issue, as the damage seems to be occurring on one or both sides and sometimes on the opposite side to the hookhold.
Some of the fish are small stockies, but this is due to my club having an odd policy where they stock the smaller fish in with the bigger carp (even though some of these lakes have a smaller stock pond right next to them), so there is a mix of 2 or 3lb carp, lots of doubles and some high doubles and twenties. Most of the fish that I'm catching are suffering some mouth damage at the sides, but as you say the smaller fish do seem to be more affected.
However, it's not the hookhold that's causing the damage so it must be something else.
I fear that it's the supple braid in conjunction with the 4oz or 5oz lead, which I will change on my next trip out.
As I stated in a few of my other replies, I fear that this is not solely a problem for me, but one that is far and wide and the damage is just not being highlighted. In my opinion only, I think that lots of the end tackles that we are using are not as fish friendly as the media will have us believe, but that it is just something that is 'not talked about'.
It would be interesting to see if any brave carpies out there might raise their hand and say that they indeed suffer the same problem. I'm sure that I'm not the only one using 4oz or 5oz leads with short supple hooklinks - or am I ???
In reply to Post #25
Is most of the damage new and mainly in the smaller fish? The smaller and younger the fish the weaker their mouths will be, with small fish (anything low doubles and smaller) and the gear you are using it's not surprising they are being damaged. Modern carp anglers use way too heavy rods, line and leads in such situations. I would be willing to bet that if you changed to leads under 2oz and 2 lb test curve rods you'd see far less, if any, mouth damage, you'd probably enjoy the fight more too.
A 4 - 5oz lead, bolt rig and tight line is just going to damage weak mouths all day long I'm afraid. Ditch the heavy tactics, even if you don't hook as many fish I'd rather do that than damage all the ones I do catch. I used a rig once that damaged the mouths of a couple of fish I caught, I immediately binned it and haven't ever used it again.
If the lake is silty rather than gravel bottomed this also leads to soft mouthed fish as they are never digging through gravel etc to feed.
It's probably a combination of things but you can certainly adapt your methods and gear to lessen the chances of it happening.
Is most of the damage new and mainly in the smaller fish? The smaller and younger the fish the weaker their mouths will be, with small fish (anything low doubles and smaller) and the gear you are using it's not surprising they are being damaged. Modern carp anglers use way too heavy rods, line and leads in such situations. I would be willing to bet that if you changed to leads under 2oz and 2 lb test curve rods you'd see far less, if any, mouth damage, you'd probably enjoy the fight more too.
A 4 - 5oz lead, bolt rig and tight line is just going to damage weak mouths all day long I'm afraid. Ditch the heavy tactics, even if you don't hook as many fish I'd rather do that than damage all the ones I do catch. I used a rig once that damaged the mouths of a couple of fish I caught, I immediately binned it and haven't ever used it again.
If the lake is silty rather than gravel bottomed this also leads to soft mouthed fish as they are never digging through gravel etc to feed.
It's probably a combination of things but you can certainly adapt your methods and gear to lessen the chances of it happening.
In reply to Post #25
I wouldn't use a 5oz lead and size 4 hook for single figure fish, that's for certain. These are juvenile fish with small, soft mouths. It's not necessary.
I wouldn't use a 5oz lead and size 4 hook for single figure fish, that's for certain. These are juvenile fish with small, soft mouths. It's not necessary.
Change your 'soft' 20lb cheese wire braided hooklink, to 30lb. Or use the braid from inside some heavier coated braid. It will make zero difference to the mechanics of your rig. The braid inside coated is never as soft as a purpose made hooklink braid.
It's not just your manufacturer, they all sell 15 & 20lb hook length braid that will be absolutely fine on a big old knarly carps mouth. But exactly the same stuff, in a lake with younger fish, or a lake which is silty (this causes soft mouths)... It will 'chelsea smile' them both sides in the scissors. When carp are feeding over a gravel bottom constantly, their mouths will be like leather and a lot tougher.
Silt feeders = soft mouths.
If you do not believe me, take a small bit of your braid, wet it, then put it onto a soft part of your skin on your hand... Give it a small pull backwards and forwards. The soft, thinner braids in 10,15 or 20lb will cut you badly like cheese wire if you try it. Unless, similar to the carp who feed over gravel, you work with your hands, and thus have hands like leather. If you do the same test on yourself with some 25, 30 or 35lb braid from inside some coated hooklink. It's thicker, and nowhere near as soft (when dry). You simply will not be able to cut yourself.
Think of it in the same way as casting with braid. With 30lb power pro or similar, you will have no problems. Try casting with a thinner casting braid. You will seriously cut your finger to bits if you do not use a finger stool.
It's not the 80's anymore. None of these companies should be selling thin hook link braids that can do this to a carps mouth. 25lb, 30lb or 35lb you will have no problems at all. It's all about the thickness, and to a lesser degree the softness of braids. But all the companies tend to sell a 10lb, a 15lb or a 20lb soft hooklink braid, which are far too thin to be used on carp with softer mouths, like the ones in your lake.
Change to 30 or 35lb braid. All of your problems will stop instantly.
It's not just your manufacturer, they all sell 15 & 20lb hook length braid that will be absolutely fine on a big old knarly carps mouth. But exactly the same stuff, in a lake with younger fish, or a lake which is silty (this causes soft mouths)... It will 'chelsea smile' them both sides in the scissors. When carp are feeding over a gravel bottom constantly, their mouths will be like leather and a lot tougher.
Silt feeders = soft mouths.
If you do not believe me, take a small bit of your braid, wet it, then put it onto a soft part of your skin on your hand... Give it a small pull backwards and forwards. The soft, thinner braids in 10,15 or 20lb will cut you badly like cheese wire if you try it. Unless, similar to the carp who feed over gravel, you work with your hands, and thus have hands like leather. If you do the same test on yourself with some 25, 30 or 35lb braid from inside some coated hooklink. It's thicker, and nowhere near as soft (when dry). You simply will not be able to cut yourself.
Think of it in the same way as casting with braid. With 30lb power pro or similar, you will have no problems. Try casting with a thinner casting braid. You will seriously cut your finger to bits if you do not use a finger stool.
It's not the 80's anymore. None of these companies should be selling thin hook link braids that can do this to a carps mouth. 25lb, 30lb or 35lb you will have no problems at all. It's all about the thickness, and to a lesser degree the softness of braids. But all the companies tend to sell a 10lb, a 15lb or a 20lb soft hooklink braid, which are far too thin to be used on carp with softer mouths, like the ones in your lake.
Change to 30 or 35lb braid. All of your problems will stop instantly.
In reply to Post #23
Even runs waters can have off years, or maybe the ones complaining simply aren't very good anglers? I'm not sure about your comment about anglers causing damage but not caring about it, I can't see that being the case on many places . Maybe on runs water type places, but you won't get many on here that fish those kinds of places with any sort of regularity if ever at all. A lot of the known anglers you refer to are fishing harder waters for older fish which generally have a lot tougher mouths, which therefore stand up to things like thin supple braids a lot better than younger fish, or ones that are very regularly caught leaving little time to heal properly. There are a lot of factors which could be causing the damage, but without knowing exactly what sort of places you are fishing and for what fish nobody can do any better than give you an educated guess really.
Even runs waters can have off years, or maybe the ones complaining simply aren't very good anglers? I'm not sure about your comment about anglers causing damage but not caring about it, I can't see that being the case on many places . Maybe on runs water type places, but you won't get many on here that fish those kinds of places with any sort of regularity if ever at all. A lot of the known anglers you refer to are fishing harder waters for older fish which generally have a lot tougher mouths, which therefore stand up to things like thin supple braids a lot better than younger fish, or ones that are very regularly caught leaving little time to heal properly. There are a lot of factors which could be causing the damage, but without knowing exactly what sort of places you are fishing and for what fish nobody can do any better than give you an educated guess really.
In reply to Post #26
Hi there, no, the damage is not mainly in the smaller fish, but I understand what you are saying about younger fish and weaker mouths.
I think that your statement about heavy gear is fair, but slightly flawed in this instance, as if you read through my post you will see that I play the fish very lightly and only apply pressure if the carp are making a bid for freedom into snags and reeds. Generally I let them plod around gently under the rod tip until they are tired enough to be drawn over the landing net cord without any unnecessary pressure. I have considered using lighter rods, but the trouble is that the particular lakes that I am fishing at the moment are run by a club and unfortunately they take very little interest in the lakes on their books. By this, I mean that there are so many overhanging trees, snags in the water and read beds that have grown out of control, that if you were to use 2lb test curve rods, you would more than likely end up with every other run making it into some kind of snag or sanctuary. I think that losing a fish in this way could be far more detrimental to the fish' welfare than landing them on slightly heavier gear. I think the lighter gear approach would mean losing more fish in the lilies and the snags than are being landed. This is obviously not good for the fish, as trailing line, leads and what not is far from ideal.
I think the lighter lead as you suggested is a good idea and I will try this on my next trip out, but the club rules are that if you are fishing for carp then you must use a minimum of 15lb breaking strain !!! I would prefer to use 2lb test curve rods and 10lb line if I'm honest, but as above I can see this causing a whole new set of issues.
Your reply has sparked a thought in my little brain though. The club that runs the lake (this particular lake is gravelly not silty) has recently stocked (in the last 3 months) 1000 smaller fish. The lake used to be predominantly carp between say 9lb and 24lb. This has meant that lots of the smaller fish are getting caught whilst waiting for a run from their heavier and older counterparts. This stocking has messed up equilibrium of the carp stocks and made fishing this particular lake more of a challenge to winkle out the bigger specimens. So if you fish light, you will catch lots of smaller carp and I agree there will be less, if any, damage. However, if you latch into a bigger specimen, due to the snags etc you risk losing the fish due to being undergunned and unable to stop the runs and lunges into the snags / trees / reeds in their bid for freedom. I think that I have come to the conclusion that I will ditch this lake and move on elsewhere and leave them to it, as it seems that this stocking has produced an unsolvable quandary that I no longer wish to be involved in.
Hi there, no, the damage is not mainly in the smaller fish, but I understand what you are saying about younger fish and weaker mouths.
I think that your statement about heavy gear is fair, but slightly flawed in this instance, as if you read through my post you will see that I play the fish very lightly and only apply pressure if the carp are making a bid for freedom into snags and reeds. Generally I let them plod around gently under the rod tip until they are tired enough to be drawn over the landing net cord without any unnecessary pressure. I have considered using lighter rods, but the trouble is that the particular lakes that I am fishing at the moment are run by a club and unfortunately they take very little interest in the lakes on their books. By this, I mean that there are so many overhanging trees, snags in the water and read beds that have grown out of control, that if you were to use 2lb test curve rods, you would more than likely end up with every other run making it into some kind of snag or sanctuary. I think that losing a fish in this way could be far more detrimental to the fish' welfare than landing them on slightly heavier gear. I think the lighter gear approach would mean losing more fish in the lilies and the snags than are being landed. This is obviously not good for the fish, as trailing line, leads and what not is far from ideal.
I think the lighter lead as you suggested is a good idea and I will try this on my next trip out, but the club rules are that if you are fishing for carp then you must use a minimum of 15lb breaking strain !!! I would prefer to use 2lb test curve rods and 10lb line if I'm honest, but as above I can see this causing a whole new set of issues.
Your reply has sparked a thought in my little brain though. The club that runs the lake (this particular lake is gravelly not silty) has recently stocked (in the last 3 months) 1000 smaller fish. The lake used to be predominantly carp between say 9lb and 24lb. This has meant that lots of the smaller fish are getting caught whilst waiting for a run from their heavier and older counterparts. This stocking has messed up equilibrium of the carp stocks and made fishing this particular lake more of a challenge to winkle out the bigger specimens. So if you fish light, you will catch lots of smaller carp and I agree there will be less, if any, damage. However, if you latch into a bigger specimen, due to the snags etc you risk losing the fish due to being undergunned and unable to stop the runs and lunges into the snags / trees / reeds in their bid for freedom. I think that I have come to the conclusion that I will ditch this lake and move on elsewhere and leave them to it, as it seems that this stocking has produced an unsolvable quandary that I no longer wish to be involved in.
In reply to Post #29
The lakes that I am fishing are not runs waters as such, and are mature club waters. However, I think that the stocking policy of the club is flawed in many ways. What I mean by this is that one particular lake was well known for carp fishing and there were plenty of carp between say 9lb and 26lb. It was never a runs water, but you could have some good sport and the banks were reasonably tidy and snag free. Over the years the club seems to have just stocked bream, roach, crucians and carp, but with no real plan for the lake. I presume they want to make it a mixed fishery. They have also let trees grow unchecked out into the lake and lilies and snags are common place in most swims. The swims have also slowly become overgrown and some are actually unfishable.
My comment about fish mouth damage was only my opinion, and I only stated that if they are using the same type of methods that I am using and they are encountering smaller carp, then they must also be coming up against the mouth damage issue. This being the case, how many posts, magazine articles, facebook posts or you tube videos actually broach this subject so that carp anglers can avoid falling into these pitfalls. It would be great if they would say things like 'if you're using a soft supple braid, then keep your lead size to 2oz or below if fishing for smaller / younger fish'. Or when using 4oz or 5oz leads be aware that a coated hooklink would be a far better option than supple braid in order to prevent mouth damage. I think that the amount of carp that we encounter that do have mouth damage far outweighs the number of posts or vlogs etc that we see that are trying to solve this problem.
This must be a problem at hundreds of carp lakes nationwide, as I could list loads of called carp fisheries that have stock ranging from 10lb up to 50lb and many carp anglers are using 4 oz leads and supple braid etc. so they must be encountering some mouth damage.
I'm not having a go at carp anglers, as like I said on the whole I am a carp angler. I just think that the big companies and big names could try a lot harder to make sure that everyone is educated in the issues that their end tackle components could cause.
The lakes that I am fishing are not runs waters as such, and are mature club waters. However, I think that the stocking policy of the club is flawed in many ways. What I mean by this is that one particular lake was well known for carp fishing and there were plenty of carp between say 9lb and 26lb. It was never a runs water, but you could have some good sport and the banks were reasonably tidy and snag free. Over the years the club seems to have just stocked bream, roach, crucians and carp, but with no real plan for the lake. I presume they want to make it a mixed fishery. They have also let trees grow unchecked out into the lake and lilies and snags are common place in most swims. The swims have also slowly become overgrown and some are actually unfishable.
My comment about fish mouth damage was only my opinion, and I only stated that if they are using the same type of methods that I am using and they are encountering smaller carp, then they must also be coming up against the mouth damage issue. This being the case, how many posts, magazine articles, facebook posts or you tube videos actually broach this subject so that carp anglers can avoid falling into these pitfalls. It would be great if they would say things like 'if you're using a soft supple braid, then keep your lead size to 2oz or below if fishing for smaller / younger fish'. Or when using 4oz or 5oz leads be aware that a coated hooklink would be a far better option than supple braid in order to prevent mouth damage. I think that the amount of carp that we encounter that do have mouth damage far outweighs the number of posts or vlogs etc that we see that are trying to solve this problem.
This must be a problem at hundreds of carp lakes nationwide, as I could list loads of called carp fisheries that have stock ranging from 10lb up to 50lb and many carp anglers are using 4 oz leads and supple braid etc. so they must be encountering some mouth damage.
I'm not having a go at carp anglers, as like I said on the whole I am a carp angler. I just think that the big companies and big names could try a lot harder to make sure that everyone is educated in the issues that their end tackle components could cause.
In reply to Post #27
Hi there, I'm not fishing for single figure fish with a 5oz lead and a size 4 hook. I'm fishing for 20lb plus fish with a 4 oz lead and a size 6 or 8 hook.
The trouble is that the club that runs the lake (this particular lake is gravelly not silty) has recently stocked (in the last 3 months) 1000 smaller fish. The lake used to be predominantly carp between say 9lb and 24lb (with rumours about 26lbers and higher etc). This has meant that lots of the smaller fish are getting caught whilst waiting for a run from their heavier and older counterparts.
They have also let the trees, snags and lilies etc grow out of control and the banks are becoming overgrown and some swims unfishable. So, I'm glad I posted this topic as out of it all I have actually decided to stop fishing these club waters and move on elsewhere, as the stocking policies and lack of lets say 'gardening' on the lakes has given rise to more issues, that to be honest are not going to be solved any time soon (and I am getting on a bit).
I am very grateful for everyone's posts in reply to this topic, as it has produced some great ideas, some points worth pondering over and has got my old grey matter ticking over nicely.
Hi there, I'm not fishing for single figure fish with a 5oz lead and a size 4 hook. I'm fishing for 20lb plus fish with a 4 oz lead and a size 6 or 8 hook.
The trouble is that the club that runs the lake (this particular lake is gravelly not silty) has recently stocked (in the last 3 months) 1000 smaller fish. The lake used to be predominantly carp between say 9lb and 24lb (with rumours about 26lbers and higher etc). This has meant that lots of the smaller fish are getting caught whilst waiting for a run from their heavier and older counterparts.
They have also let the trees, snags and lilies etc grow out of control and the banks are becoming overgrown and some swims unfishable. So, I'm glad I posted this topic as out of it all I have actually decided to stop fishing these club waters and move on elsewhere, as the stocking policies and lack of lets say 'gardening' on the lakes has given rise to more issues, that to be honest are not going to be solved any time soon (and I am getting on a bit).
I am very grateful for everyone's posts in reply to this topic, as it has produced some great ideas, some points worth pondering over and has got my old grey matter ticking over nicely.
In reply to Post #28
Hi there, yes you are spot on with your comments. It seems that the 20lb supple hooklink that I have been using is like a cheese wire, and that I have placed too much faith in the massive Kompany which sells this product, to provide carp safe end tackle components. I only used the 20lb version as this was the closest to the 16lb mainline that I have been using, which I think sounds sensible, but is obviously not a good idea.
I am having the same issues on both the silty lakes that I fish and the gravelly waters that I fish, because as you stated I thought that silty waters would contain fish that had softer mouths than those on gravelly waters. However, the cheese wire effect seems universal. I agree with you and think that these types of braid should be banned, but who is going to speak up and broach this subject in magazines, podcasts or you tube channels ???
I'm definitely going to up the braking strain of my hooklink as you suggest. I wonder if the tackle shop will give me a refund of the £15 I paid for the cheesewire stuff ???
Hi there, yes you are spot on with your comments. It seems that the 20lb supple hooklink that I have been using is like a cheese wire, and that I have placed too much faith in the massive Kompany which sells this product, to provide carp safe end tackle components. I only used the 20lb version as this was the closest to the 16lb mainline that I have been using, which I think sounds sensible, but is obviously not a good idea.
I am having the same issues on both the silty lakes that I fish and the gravelly waters that I fish, because as you stated I thought that silty waters would contain fish that had softer mouths than those on gravelly waters. However, the cheese wire effect seems universal. I agree with you and think that these types of braid should be banned, but who is going to speak up and broach this subject in magazines, podcasts or you tube channels ???
I'm definitely going to up the braking strain of my hooklink as you suggest. I wonder if the tackle shop will give me a refund of the £15 I paid for the cheesewire stuff ???
Another point I would like to add is sharpened hooks, specifically those sharpened on one plane. I have recently stopped using pre sharpened hooks as many of my hook holds would have sliced from their original hold causing damage. I don't know if this applies to all sharpened hooks but certainly the ones sharpened on a single plane, since going back to packet sharp hooks the holds have significantly improved and now I find them still in the original point of entry and require some effort to pop out. Be interesting to know if anyone else has found this but this might also be a factor if you are using similar hooks that have been sharpened in this way.
In reply to Post #34
Hi there, what pre sharpened hooks were you using ??? Did they come in a little black, white and red box ??
Hi there, what pre sharpened hooks were you using ??? Did they come in a little black, white and red box ??
So, I will have a look at purchasing longer, through action rods in a lighter test curve (recommendations appreciated), but this will probably be my last port of call due to cost £££
The hooklink braid is 20lb KORDA DARK MATTER SUPER-HEAVY BRAIDED HOOKLINK, I have now purchased the same braid in 30lb, some 20lb ESP TUNGSTEN LOADED SOFT and some SEMI STIFF 20lb KORDA N-TRAP ... so we shall see if this makes a difference
I have made a load of new rigs in longer lengths and am going to make them gradually shorter to see if the length is making a difference.
I have made the rigs with 2 different hooks attached, the KORDA wide gape and the sharpened KORDA KAMAKURAs in sizes 6 and 8, to see if this makes a difference.
I have also bought some lighter leads 3oz, 2.5oz and 2 oz, to see if this makes a difference.
I am also going to drop the lead, to see if this makes a difference.
Lots to be going on with, but at least it will keep me busy
The hooklink braid is 20lb KORDA DARK MATTER SUPER-HEAVY BRAIDED HOOKLINK, I have now purchased the same braid in 30lb, some 20lb ESP TUNGSTEN LOADED SOFT and some SEMI STIFF 20lb KORDA N-TRAP ... so we shall see if this makes a difference
I have made a load of new rigs in longer lengths and am going to make them gradually shorter to see if the length is making a difference.
I have made the rigs with 2 different hooks attached, the KORDA wide gape and the sharpened KORDA KAMAKURAs in sizes 6 and 8, to see if this makes a difference.
I have also bought some lighter leads 3oz, 2.5oz and 2 oz, to see if this makes a difference.
I am also going to drop the lead, to see if this makes a difference.
Lots to be going on with, but at least it will keep me busy
In reply to Post #36
I don't think it's your rods to be honest. The carp pull back just as hard on lighter rods.
I don't think it's your rods to be honest. The carp pull back just as hard on lighter rods.
In reply to Post #36
I fish pretty much the same as you apart from the lead size , I use 2.5 Oz inlines in bags and don't drop the lead , I don't get the mouth damage that you seem to get . Are you sure it's you that's causing the damage ?
I fish pretty much the same as you apart from the lead size , I use 2.5 Oz inlines in bags and don't drop the lead , I don't get the mouth damage that you seem to get . Are you sure it's you that's causing the damage ?
In reply to Post #36
Please feedback, it will be interesting to hear
Please feedback, it will be interesting to hear
In reply to Post #38
what hooklink are you using ???
what hooklink are you using ???
Dark matter braid is relatively thick for its breaking strain
In reply to Post #35
JP Precision, very sharp and strong, just appear to slice occasionally
JP Precision, very sharp and strong, just appear to slice occasionally
In reply to Post #39
In reply to Post #40
Korda supernatural sinking braid 18lb bs or fox reflex camo in 20 lb . Both finer diameter than the korda dark matter .
Korda supernatural sinking braid 18lb bs or fox reflex camo in 20 lb . Both finer diameter than the korda dark matter .
In reply to Post #36
Kindfisher, it's really good to see someone going to such effort for fish safety. I wish everybody cared as much as you.
You're doing everything right - all those things you've identified are going to reduce the chances of damage.
I'm no Korda fanboy, but as it happens that 30lb braid you just bought is the one I use in solid bags, specifically because I think it's kind on mouths. I do feel it's a little stiff for the hair though, so I use something much lighter for the hair itself. (usually light braid nicked off my lure rod - think it's maybe 8-10lb)
Kindfisher, it's really good to see someone going to such effort for fish safety. I wish everybody cared as much as you.
You're doing everything right - all those things you've identified are going to reduce the chances of damage.
I'm no Korda fanboy, but as it happens that 30lb braid you just bought is the one I use in solid bags, specifically because I think it's kind on mouths. I do feel it's a little stiff for the hair though, so I use something much lighter for the hair itself. (usually light braid nicked off my lure rod - think it's maybe 8-10lb)
Could it be the rig glue you are using on your rig knots causing the damage? I'm using the same set up as you, 3oz leads, size 8 hooks, 4 inches DM braid and I am not experiencing mouth damage, never mind damage on both sides. The only thing I am not using is the rig glue. I've never used it, so I don't know what it is like but is it possible it could leave edges that could cause the damage along with the weight of the lead?
In reply to Post #45
Thanks for that, I must admit I did feel like I'd accidentally walked into a firing range.
I never use the braid as a hair, I think all of them are far too thick (after all, it did get it's name from using human hairs). I always use some strong cotton from HOBBYCRAFT.
Thanks for that, I must admit I did feel like I'd accidentally walked into a firing range.
I never use the braid as a hair, I think all of them are far too thick (after all, it did get it's name from using human hairs). I always use some strong cotton from HOBBYCRAFT.
In reply to Post #46
I'm pretty sure it's not the glue, as I cover my glue at the hook end with shrink tubing ...
If all else fails, I'll try the rigs without the glue
I'm pretty sure it's not the glue, as I cover my glue at the hook end with shrink tubing ...
If all else fails, I'll try the rigs without the glue
have you though about trying a different hooklink like the Nash triggerlink? My thoughts are that it has a certain amount of stretch in it which may act as a bit of a shock absorber and help stop mouth damage.
In reply to Post #49
That sounds like a good idea. I'll look into it. Thanks
That sounds like a good idea. I'll look into it. Thanks
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