I am hoping that there may be a historian here.
The average carp angler today is working class - although the definition is increasingly blurred as plenty of trades persons lead thoroughly middle class lives (house, car, holidays etc.).
However some of the original carpers/specimen anglers were posh boys (Yates and Walker - I am assuming the latter was middle class).
In fact a lot of pastimes were up until recently the preserve of the rich.... foreign travel, pet ownership to name a couple.
Would anyone be able to shed any light?
The average carp angler today is working class - although the definition is increasingly blurred as plenty of trades persons lead thoroughly middle class lives (house, car, holidays etc.).
However some of the original carpers/specimen anglers were posh boys (Yates and Walker - I am assuming the latter was middle class).
In fact a lot of pastimes were up until recently the preserve of the rich.... foreign travel, pet ownership to name a couple.
Would anyone be able to shed any light?
In reply to Post #1
I would have said Most of the middle and upper classes were game anglers in by gone days
I would have said Most of the middle and upper classes were game anglers in by gone days
In reply to Post #1
Good grief...
Good grief...
In reply to Post #1
Stupid post. Who cares. What defines class anyway?
Stupid post. Who cares. What defines class anyway?
In reply to Post #1
Hilarious!
Hilarious!
In reply to Post #1
Yates and Walker were instants, ask Issac Walton
Yates and Walker were instants, ask Issac Walton
Some of the CCC wore a tie if that helps. So did Eric Hosden.
In reply to Post #1
I've got a house, cars and take a few holidays but I don't consider myself middle class. My 28 year old daughter thinks we are middle class though so I reckon for some it all depends on your age group?
It used to be that successful carpers used to be on the dole or done just enough work to go fishing now many of them make a modest living out of it. Does that make them middle class....perhaps others can tell me?
I've got a house, cars and take a few holidays but I don't consider myself middle class. My 28 year old daughter thinks we are middle class though so I reckon for some it all depends on your age group?
It used to be that successful carpers used to be on the dole or done just enough work to go fishing now many of them make a modest living out of it. Does that make them middle class....perhaps others can tell me?
In reply to Post #4
Any more stupid that half the ones in most other threads that descend into chaos? Lol
I‘m Sure this post stems from the passion for angling thread
I always thought bob and Chris were posh when I was a kid now I just realise they never grew up.
Any more stupid that half the ones in most other threads that descend into chaos? Lol
I‘m Sure this post stems from the passion for angling thread
I always thought bob and Chris were posh when I was a kid now I just realise they never grew up.
In reply to Post #9
When you put it that way I start to get it
I think Bob and Chris were more the exception than the rule?
When you put it that way I start to get it
I think Bob and Chris were more the exception than the rule?
In reply to Post #10
I could have the total wrong end of the stick lol
I could have the total wrong end of the stick lol
In reply to Post #4
Easy.....if you have to sell your arse for a wage, you're working class. Yep. Even if you're a GP, dentist, barrister etc, etc, etc. What kind of an arse do you think you have? And your arse doesn't have dibs on what's stupid or otherwise.
Easy.....if you have to sell your arse for a wage, you're working class. Yep. Even if you're a GP, dentist, barrister etc, etc, etc. What kind of an arse do you think you have? And your arse doesn't have dibs on what's stupid or otherwise.
In reply to Post #1
And for balance, in conjunction with my previous post, are you related to Bob, in any way? Kev Clifford has a good overview of carp fishing history. In guess what? A history of carp fishing. Draw your own conclusions. 👍
And for balance, in conjunction with my previous post, are you related to Bob, in any way? Kev Clifford has a good overview of carp fishing history. In guess what? A history of carp fishing. Draw your own conclusions. 👍
In reply to Post #12
What does selling you arse mean?
People go to work and get a wage, some people get paid more for doing their jobs than others.
Genuine question without taking it literally what does selling your arse mean?
What does selling you arse mean?
People go to work and get a wage, some people get paid more for doing their jobs than others.
Genuine question without taking it literally what does selling your arse mean?
hmmmm
maybe cross reference this thread with the 'too much gear' thread... if you are looking st the working class and disposable income then there's an interesting study there I think.
game fishing definitely feels historically middle / upper class but then there is the history of farmers being very into game fishing also...
class has shifted over the last few decades. I've just started reading a book called 'Respectable' by Lynsey Hanley which looks at that shift from 'working class' to 'middle class' (when did dinner become lunch and tea become dinner etc.?)
if we are looking at the more well known anglers then you have to also consider the way broadcasting has evolved. the BBC in particular - and ITV channels to a similar degree - was a very class driven organisation and the anglers they chose to film would reflect that. more recently this has shifted (although Channel 4 and BBC3 do still seem to be the domain for the children of well to do TV execs, ...)
Publishing will likely follow a similar history - so the carp anglers of the past in print are more likely to come from middle / upper class circles
It doesn't necessarily matter in the grand scheme of things, but it's an interesting study to keep you busy in lockdown
maybe cross reference this thread with the 'too much gear' thread... if you are looking st the working class and disposable income then there's an interesting study there I think.
game fishing definitely feels historically middle / upper class but then there is the history of farmers being very into game fishing also...
class has shifted over the last few decades. I've just started reading a book called 'Respectable' by Lynsey Hanley which looks at that shift from 'working class' to 'middle class' (when did dinner become lunch and tea become dinner etc.?)
if we are looking at the more well known anglers then you have to also consider the way broadcasting has evolved. the BBC in particular - and ITV channels to a similar degree - was a very class driven organisation and the anglers they chose to film would reflect that. more recently this has shifted (although Channel 4 and BBC3 do still seem to be the domain for the children of well to do TV execs, ...)
Publishing will likely follow a similar history - so the carp anglers of the past in print are more likely to come from middle / upper class circles
It doesn't necessarily matter in the grand scheme of things, but it's an interesting study to keep you busy in lockdown
In reply to Post #15
dinner/lunch tea/dinner is an interesting one. It's taken decades and decades for me to finally say lunch followed by dinner (whatever happened to supper?) By there are somethings that I will never change. It will always be Christmas dinner never lunch and the kids were always given school dinner money
dinner/lunch tea/dinner is an interesting one. It's taken decades and decades for me to finally say lunch followed by dinner (whatever happened to supper?) By there are somethings that I will never change. It will always be Christmas dinner never lunch and the kids were always given school dinner money
In reply to Post #1
wot ********
when I fished Longfield Ritchie Mcdonald used to come down after finishing his window cleaning round Pete Springate drove a hoover van Rod Hutchinson was a scruffy scaffolder Fred Wilton was a docker (he invented boilies) Len Arbury was an engineer all working class as were 90% I was a ****ing babe magnet
wot ********
when I fished Longfield Ritchie Mcdonald used to come down after finishing his window cleaning round Pete Springate drove a hoover van Rod Hutchinson was a scruffy scaffolder Fred Wilton was a docker (he invented boilies) Len Arbury was an engineer all working class as were 90% I was a ****ing babe magnet
In reply to Post #17
1) oldgeezer - I am aware of the backgrounds of people from that era. They represent an era where a community (however small) was starting to develop but there were people who came before them, and chapters in books about fishing for carp dating back well before the anglers you mention.
2) Fly fishing in the UK is now very mixed, which contrasts with its origins. From personal experience I've encountered labourers to lawyers and people from all over the world and from different ethnic groups. When I was carp fishing on Walthamstow I naturally assumed that they were mostly middle class - until I took up fly fishing and spent my first year on the trout ressies on the complex
1) oldgeezer - I am aware of the backgrounds of people from that era. They represent an era where a community (however small) was starting to develop but there were people who came before them, and chapters in books about fishing for carp dating back well before the anglers you mention.
2) Fly fishing in the UK is now very mixed, which contrasts with its origins. From personal experience I've encountered labourers to lawyers and people from all over the world and from different ethnic groups. When I was carp fishing on Walthamstow I naturally assumed that they were mostly middle class - until I took up fly fishing and spent my first year on the trout ressies on the complex
In reply to Post #18
You must of edited post #1 it reads differently today than it did yesterday.
You must of edited post #1 it reads differently today than it did yesterday.
In reply to Post #1
Very strange question to ask, all the ones I knew – were all from a working class background, they were certainly a much better class of people because of this I'd say.
There's were so few so few of them in my neck of the woods, to a degree they was looked upon by Match & Game Anglers as a bit “Odd” at the time.
Very strange question to ask, all the ones I knew – were all from a working class background, they were certainly a much better class of people because of this I'd say.
There's were so few so few of them in my neck of the woods, to a degree they was looked upon by Match & Game Anglers as a bit “Odd” at the time.
In reply to Post #18
Pre-gangsterfication of Britain most people dressed and spoke better, they'd appear more well to do.
A lot of working class folk probably couldn't write well enough for a book and there was obviously no vlogs, so their voices went unheard outside of their own circles
Pre-gangsterfication of Britain most people dressed and spoke better, they'd appear more well to do.
A lot of working class folk probably couldn't write well enough for a book and there was obviously no vlogs, so their voices went unheard outside of their own circles
In reply to Post #20
how do you defines class
is dan fairbrass upper class now hes a millionaire or is he still working class cos he still runs his company
how do you defines class
is dan fairbrass upper class now hes a millionaire or is he still working class cos he still runs his company
Jim Shelley is an upper middle class angler.
It's not just how much money you have it's how you behave and in an angling contex your sporting ethos.
Jim is the epitome of a well mannered, gentle, thoughtful angler who puts others before himself. He has become someone of note due to his well mannered deferential style.
I say, One should Keep it Real Chaps.
It's not just how much money you have it's how you behave and in an angling contex your sporting ethos.
Jim is the epitome of a well mannered, gentle, thoughtful angler who puts others before himself. He has become someone of note due to his well mannered deferential style.
I say, One should Keep it Real Chaps.
In reply to Post #23
In reply to Post #22
40-50 years ago we had manufacturing and an industrial base, a totally different landscape, it self defined itself.
40-50 years ago we had manufacturing and an industrial base, a totally different landscape, it self defined itself.
In reply to Post #19
The post hasn't been edited Sir.
I am interested in the very beginnings of carp so I feel that it's a valid question (to those who think it's a strange question).
And I did acknowledge at the beginning that class is not as easily defined now.
However it would have been back in the first part of the 1900s when very small numbers of people dabbled in carp.
The post war era saw a boom in angling as workers had more free time, manufacturing techniques made gear more accessible and things that were once out of reach for working class people were now available to all.
Jim Shelley, haha, well he's built like Henry VIII.
The post hasn't been edited Sir.
I am interested in the very beginnings of carp so I feel that it's a valid question (to those who think it's a strange question).
And I did acknowledge at the beginning that class is not as easily defined now.
However it would have been back in the first part of the 1900s when very small numbers of people dabbled in carp.
The post war era saw a boom in angling as workers had more free time, manufacturing techniques made gear more accessible and things that were once out of reach for working class people were now available to all.
Jim Shelley, haha, well he's built like Henry VIII.
In reply to Post #26
I would imagine that early carp anglers were among the more well off in society, and at that time people with money would have been more likely to be in what could be called the middle or upper classes. They would have needed free time and transport to get to waters containing carp that were more commonly found on country estates than in urban areas, where canals were popular for match fishing.
The post war rebuild and the development of infrastructure in and around London lead to gravel pits popping up (popping down?) all over the place, which greatly expanded the accessibility of waters that contained carp to 'normal people', thanks to some great stocking activities.
I grew up in the 70s, when carp anglers weren't necessarily posh, but they were a bit 'odd', and there weren't many of them.
I would imagine that early carp anglers were among the more well off in society, and at that time people with money would have been more likely to be in what could be called the middle or upper classes. They would have needed free time and transport to get to waters containing carp that were more commonly found on country estates than in urban areas, where canals were popular for match fishing.
The post war rebuild and the development of infrastructure in and around London lead to gravel pits popping up (popping down?) all over the place, which greatly expanded the accessibility of waters that contained carp to 'normal people', thanks to some great stocking activities.
I grew up in the 70s, when carp anglers weren't necessarily posh, but they were a bit 'odd', and there weren't many of them.
Starting my independent angling in 1960 in SW Lancashire I would say the vast majority of anglers were working class in the traditional sense. Happily coarse angling was a very open pastime that required people to work together and share. The canals, lakes, flashes, clay pits, and industrial reservoirs of my area were run by clubs. Warrington and Lymn Anglers had a large number of waters between them and membership was cheap and within reach of everyone's pocket. The waters were cheap to rent as many of them were redundant and unused. Clubs would manage them and provide fishing for members. Certainly where I lived carp fishing was done by a tiny minority of club members fishing for a small number fish.
Nobody would have believed that a 5 acre pit could bring in a gross income of 20 grand and more, that people would have to pay £25 a day for coarse fishing. We have done it to ourselves with greed and selfishness with carp and match fisherman leading the charge. Class has got nothing to do with this, individual greed is the problem as it always is.
Nobody would have believed that a 5 acre pit could bring in a gross income of 20 grand and more, that people would have to pay £25 a day for coarse fishing. We have done it to ourselves with greed and selfishness with carp and match fisherman leading the charge. Class has got nothing to do with this, individual greed is the problem as it always is.
Not so much about class but I found this interesting
A brief history of UK carping
A brief history of UK carping
In reply to Post #29
Reading it now, very informative!
Reading it now, very informative!
In reply to Post #29
Great read thanks
Great read thanks
Wasn't Jack Hilton a Landscape Gardener or owned a gardening business?
Left fishing at the top of his carp fishing career because he became a Jehovahs Witness. His daughter Amy lived in Ipswich, and is a JW herself, at the same hall as my ex.
I also think that a few of the anglers around that time all worked with him as well from my understanding or (mis) reading of articles.
I think the North of England had more match style anglers, factory jobs in heavy industry and days out meant they would compete against each other in matches.
Inthink Jim Gibbinson was a school teacher, Elliott Symak had an engineering background, and Kevin Maddocks was a Band Manager.
Left fishing at the top of his carp fishing career because he became a Jehovahs Witness. His daughter Amy lived in Ipswich, and is a JW herself, at the same hall as my ex.
I also think that a few of the anglers around that time all worked with him as well from my understanding or (mis) reading of articles.
I think the North of England had more match style anglers, factory jobs in heavy industry and days out meant they would compete against each other in matches.
Inthink Jim Gibbinson was a school teacher, Elliott Symak had an engineering background, and Kevin Maddocks was a Band Manager.
as a carp angler of 40 years standing and travelled the length and breadth of the country in my pursuit of the most noble of fish I think I can safely say that apart from the good men of Essex the rest of the anglers I have encountered on my travels could definitely be regarded as lower class.
this is not a slur on the poor unfortunate wretches and I wouldn't want to stigmatize them but us Essex chaps will always have the upper hand whether it be financially, sartorially or mentally.
Essex has historically produced the biggest bait and tackle companies, we even had a notorious gangster accompanied by a flock of dolly birds appear on a carp fishing TV programme.
so to answer post no1 yes I do think that the original carp anglers were middle too upper class but only if they came from Essex.
this is not a slur on the poor unfortunate wretches and I wouldn't want to stigmatize them but us Essex chaps will always have the upper hand whether it be financially, sartorially or mentally.
Essex has historically produced the biggest bait and tackle companies, we even had a notorious gangster accompanied by a flock of dolly birds appear on a carp fishing TV programme.
so to answer post no1 yes I do think that the original carp anglers were middle too upper class but only if they came from Essex.
In reply to Post #33
In reply to Post #33
Very funny
Now **** off back to Jaywick
Very funny
Now **** off back to Jaywick
In reply to Post #33
But those Essex carp anglers were late to the party by three or four decades but that's understandable as most I met when starting out near on fifty years ago couldn't read
Kevin Clifford's history of carp fishing is a great read along with Chris Ball's Historical Carp Waters.
But those Essex carp anglers were late to the party by three or four decades but that's understandable as most I met when starting out near on fifty years ago couldn't read
Kevin Clifford's history of carp fishing is a great read along with Chris Ball's Historical Carp Waters.
In reply to Post #36
You must be reeaaallly old 👨🦳
You must be reeaaallly old 👨🦳
In reply to Post #17
Great photo that Gerry
Great photo that Gerry
When I was a lad I had to get up at 3.30am, six days before I wanted to go fishing and walk 40miles to buy a sack of coal, whilst doing my paper round and delivering bread on my push bike, all before school. I'd only get to eat on every third Tuesday and then it would only be the scraps from the glue factory. Eeee bah gum we ad it touf.
If we wanted to fish the canal match, we had to build the canal before we started. Don't know you are born you lot.
Essex, pah. White trainer wearing, folded handlea ****ers.
If we wanted to fish the canal match, we had to build the canal before we started. Don't know you are born you lot.
Essex, pah. White trainer wearing, folded handlea ****ers.
In reply to Post #39
a sack of coal?!?!
you lucky, lucky b****rd. if we wanted a fire we had to burn our grandparents. and once they were used up, we would just have to try and warm each other on the breath of the cat.
etc.
a sack of coal?!?!
you lucky, lucky b****rd. if we wanted a fire we had to burn our grandparents. and once they were used up, we would just have to try and warm each other on the breath of the cat.
etc.
In reply to Post #39
Mmmmm not sure I believe you.. anyhow,someone had to do the dirty work whilst we were conquering Spain.
Mmmmm not sure I believe you.. anyhow,someone had to do the dirty work whilst we were conquering Spain.
In reply to Post #40
Is that why you grew your hair,to keep warm
Is that why you grew your hair,to keep warm
In reply to Post #42
In reply to Post #36
Carp fishing is important, but a good education is importanter.
Carp fishing is important, but a good education is importanter.
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