Just a little test with a home made enzyme paste (made by Butterbean on the forum) vs frozen bloodworm in a tank.
Before someone goes off their hinges, we all know this is small koi in a tank and not necessarily comparable to a fishing situation. There is no commercial baits involved here so nobody should have to get upset over this.
There is bloodworm spread on the bottom and a large lump right next to the paste:
VIDEO HERE
Before someone goes off their hinges, we all know this is small koi in a tank and not necessarily comparable to a fishing situation. There is no commercial baits involved here so nobody should have to get upset over this.
There is bloodworm spread on the bottom and a large lump right next to the paste:
VIDEO HERE
In reply to Post #1
What conclusion do you draw from this then?
What conclusion do you draw from this then?
In reply to Post #2
That the fish sure likes the paste.
What conclusion did you draw yourself?
That the fish sure likes the paste.
What conclusion did you draw yourself?
In reply to Post #7
"Now a new study has shown for the first time that staring at swimming fish really does lower blood pressure and reduce heart rate. ... Watching fish also reduced blood pressure by four per cent. "
Obviously not working for everyone
"Now a new study has shown for the first time that staring at swimming fish really does lower blood pressure and reduce heart rate. ... Watching fish also reduced blood pressure by four per cent. "
Obviously not working for everyone
In reply to Post #1
They certainly liked it and it created competitive feeding, how do the fish behave or what sort of feeding response do you get if there was just a block of bloodworm there ?
They certainly liked it and it created competitive feeding, how do the fish behave or what sort of feeding response do you get if there was just a block of bloodworm there ?
In reply to Post #10
How would you relate this to optimal foraging theory... Which in this case would state that the paste would be selected, especially by juveniles, over the bloodworm, as the energy expended to gain the nutritional benefits will be considerably lower for the paste?
How would you relate this to optimal foraging theory... Which in this case would state that the paste would be selected, especially by juveniles, over the bloodworm, as the energy expended to gain the nutritional benefits will be considerably lower for the paste?
Thread tidied.
No decent input then it's probably best not to post on the thread
No decent input then it's probably best not to post on the thread
I think you have an issue here with the size of food on offer. Block of bloodworm vs block of paste of the same size would be more fair.
New theory, enzymes don't exist on this flat earth we live on
New theory, enzymes don't exist on this flat earth we live on
In reply to Post #10
Just a block of bloodworm gives a similar reaction, but its torn to pieces pretty fast and spread all over.
Greek, the lump of bloodworm next to the paste is pretty similar in size. It was a full block but I squashed it to make it sink so there is single worms around it.
By no means claiming this is a serious test, but still interesting to watch in my opinion.
Just a block of bloodworm gives a similar reaction, but its torn to pieces pretty fast and spread all over.
Greek, the lump of bloodworm next to the paste is pretty similar in size. It was a full block but I squashed it to make it sink so there is single worms around it.
By no means claiming this is a serious test, but still interesting to watch in my opinion.
In reply to Post #14
Definitely mate. I find the reaction to daphnia in a fish tank interesting. Maybe that could be the next test?
Definitely mate. I find the reaction to daphnia in a fish tank interesting. Maybe that could be the next test?
In reply to Post #15
It would definetly be interesting to test if I can get any.
I tried live white mosquito larvae one time and the daft tank fish spent ages before they understood that it was possible to eat them.
It would definetly be interesting to test if I can get any.
I tried live white mosquito larvae one time and the daft tank fish spent ages before they understood that it was possible to eat them.
In reply to Post #11
Hi NW,
Not quite sure of the point you are making.
It seemed to me the fish took no notice of the bloodworm and expended plenty of their energy fighting over the paste.
As Viking says, this and the many other tests he has done are in no way scientifically viable, but it's the best he is able to do, on the side, whilst he is busy running a bait company.
As we know, you use enzymes in your bait and are fully aware of how effective they can be.
BB.
Hi NW,
Not quite sure of the point you are making.
It seemed to me the fish took no notice of the bloodworm and expended plenty of their energy fighting over the paste.
As Viking says, this and the many other tests he has done are in no way scientifically viable, but it's the best he is able to do, on the side, whilst he is busy running a bait company.
As we know, you use enzymes in your bait and are fully aware of how effective they can be.
BB.
In reply to Post #17
That's not the point, BB. The test is pointless, the comparison is completely non-scientific. Read up on it... It is about expending the least energy to get the maximum benefit.
What would be interesting is to see a vid of the paste vs identical paste excluding enzymes, with the paste 'ball' of the same size and shape.
And yes, if the circumstances permit, I will use enzymes as you know, and there's a lot we agree on!
That's not the point, BB. The test is pointless, the comparison is completely non-scientific. Read up on it... It is about expending the least energy to get the maximum benefit.
What would be interesting is to see a vid of the paste vs identical paste excluding enzymes, with the paste 'ball' of the same size and shape.
And yes, if the circumstances permit, I will use enzymes as you know, and there's a lot we agree on!
In reply to Post #18
"What would be interesting is to see a vid of the paste vs identical paste excluding enzymes, with the paste 'ball' of the same size and shape."
RIGHT HERE
Notice what happens when the fish feeding on the "non enz" ball (right side) get a whiff of the enz paste.
"What would be interesting is to see a vid of the paste vs identical paste excluding enzymes, with the paste 'ball' of the same size and shape."
RIGHT HERE
Notice what happens when the fish feeding on the "non enz" ball (right side) get a whiff of the enz paste.
In reply to Post #19
Interesting....food for thought....
Interesting....food for thought....
In reply to Post #18
Hi NW,
Viking and I have said the test was non scientific but to us, the test was not pointless. Any of the fish could have fed on the bloodworm without expending much energy, and without competition, but chose to expend energy fighting over the paste.
Viking has done many comparison tests using our enz paste against other baits and substances and in each case, the other bait and substances came a distant second.
BB.
Hi NW,
Viking and I have said the test was non scientific but to us, the test was not pointless. Any of the fish could have fed on the bloodworm without expending much energy, and without competition, but chose to expend energy fighting over the paste.
Viking has done many comparison tests using our enz paste against other baits and substances and in each case, the other bait and substances came a distant second.
BB.
In reply to Post #1
Interesting.
What are the fish usually fed on, dried food?
Have they seen bloodworm before?
Have they seen other decent pastes, with the emphasis on decent, I would be interested in seeing a few different ones as a comparison
The paste dissolves well, you can see it clouding, realising attraction
Interesting.
What are the fish usually fed on, dried food?
Have they seen bloodworm before?
Have they seen other decent pastes, with the emphasis on decent, I would be interested in seeing a few different ones as a comparison
The paste dissolves well, you can see it clouding, realising attraction
In reply to Post #22
The fish in the first video is pretty new with just a few weeks in the tank. They are fed on flaked food and get bloodworm 2-3 times per week and dried tubifex.
They have been through a few pastes too, both simples and decent ones with the full FLAA considered.
The fish in the second video was in the tank for many months, doing a lot of testing with all sorts. They died in a filter accident after a power break.
The fish in the first video is pretty new with just a few weeks in the tank. They are fed on flaked food and get bloodworm 2-3 times per week and dried tubifex.
They have been through a few pastes too, both simples and decent ones with the full FLAA considered.
The fish in the second video was in the tank for many months, doing a lot of testing with all sorts. They died in a filter accident after a power break.
In reply to Post #23
I guess it looks like the enzyme paste is more attractive or seemed to be to the larger dominant fish. if you were fishing the two at the side of each other then that would be the real test for me, both received attention though
Also, in a normal mixed fishery I doubt there would be any paste left by the time Mr carp arrives. Carp only water would be an interesting test I suppose 
I guess it looks like the enzyme paste is more attractive or seemed to be to the larger dominant fish. if you were fishing the two at the side of each other then that would be the real test for me, both received attention though
Also, in a normal mixed fishery I doubt there would be any paste left by the time Mr carp arrives. Carp only water would be an interesting test I suppose
In reply to Post #24
Yes, the enzyme pastes always win hands down in my feeble tank tests and also in real fishing thou I don't have significant numbers to make any real statistics. Where I fish you are usually lucky to catch one in a session so it is hard to judge, but I plan on spending a bit more time in an easier lake this season to get some numbers to compare.
The non enzyme dough getting attention is natural, as it is a well composed mix, exactly the same as the one with enzymes in it. But the enzyme treated mix probably has longer range attraction and creates a much better feed signal. Getting the right enzymes and match them with the proteins is what takes a lot of studying, and BB has been doing a lot of reading over the last couple of years to find out what we needed.
We don't have much nuicance fish where I fish, usually just the eels making trouble and the occasional trout having it.
When tested in mixed fisheries the paste has been devastated by most species but there is ways around that with wrappings etc. Also fishing a harder hookbait over a bed of paste seem to work very well as when the cloud spread in the water they sample everything in the area.
Yes, the enzyme pastes always win hands down in my feeble tank tests and also in real fishing thou I don't have significant numbers to make any real statistics. Where I fish you are usually lucky to catch one in a session so it is hard to judge, but I plan on spending a bit more time in an easier lake this season to get some numbers to compare.
The non enzyme dough getting attention is natural, as it is a well composed mix, exactly the same as the one with enzymes in it. But the enzyme treated mix probably has longer range attraction and creates a much better feed signal. Getting the right enzymes and match them with the proteins is what takes a lot of studying, and BB has been doing a lot of reading over the last couple of years to find out what we needed.
We don't have much nuicance fish where I fish, usually just the eels making trouble and the occasional trout having it.
When tested in mixed fisheries the paste has been devastated by most species but there is ways around that with wrappings etc. Also fishing a harder hookbait over a bed of paste seem to work very well as when the cloud spread in the water they sample everything in the area.
I can only comment on my experience of keeping aquarium fish and frozen blood worm didnt even illicit the same response as a Trout pellet, live blood worm on the other hand....but I think that was a motion/predatory response. Same re frozen Daphnia, most of it ended up in the filter. Marmite, that got them going, even when totally in solution.
In reply to Post #24
Hi Scozza,
Yes, you are right in that an enzyme bait is a feed magnet to all species that eat our bait.
In mixed fisheries where nuisance fish are a problem, there is another string to our bow that hasn't been mentioned.
When an enz mix has finished its incubation, the end result is a thick, sticky, liquid slurry similar to porridge.
This then is stiffened with binders to produce a usable paste, the breakdown time of which can be adjusted to suit.
We can use the slurry, watered down to make a groundbait of vitalin, micro pellets, hemp etc to use as a carpet feed along with a bed of diced paste.
Obviously, in a long session and depending on fish action, this approach has to be fed more often than a bed of hard boilies that take days to breakdown.
We mostly fish short sessions, so this approach gives us immediate high attraction.
BB.
Hi Scozza,
Yes, you are right in that an enzyme bait is a feed magnet to all species that eat our bait.
In mixed fisheries where nuisance fish are a problem, there is another string to our bow that hasn't been mentioned.
When an enz mix has finished its incubation, the end result is a thick, sticky, liquid slurry similar to porridge.
This then is stiffened with binders to produce a usable paste, the breakdown time of which can be adjusted to suit.
We can use the slurry, watered down to make a groundbait of vitalin, micro pellets, hemp etc to use as a carpet feed along with a bed of diced paste.
Obviously, in a long session and depending on fish action, this approach has to be fed more often than a bed of hard boilies that take days to breakdown.
We mostly fish short sessions, so this approach gives us immediate high attraction.
BB.
In reply to Post #27
See how your trials go. Runs water would be a starter for me
I thought the same too Vossy with the dead bloodworm
See how your trials go. Runs water would be a starter for me
I thought the same too Vossy with the dead bloodworm
In reply to Post #28
Bloodworm is used as a benchmark in agar pellets, they eat 100% nearly every time.
We have done countless tests with a number of products, but I found it is best not to upset people so posted the one with bloodworm as I guessed it would cause the least amount of aggro.
Bloodworm is used as a benchmark in agar pellets, they eat 100% nearly every time.
We have done countless tests with a number of products, but I found it is best not to upset people so posted the one with bloodworm as I guessed it would cause the least amount of aggro.
In reply to Post #27
Sounds like you've gone down the 'Soup' route, BB. Ideal for short sessions and close in work.
Sounds like you've gone down the 'Soup' route, BB. Ideal for short sessions and close in work.
In reply to Post #30
Hi NW,
Yes, it gives the bait another use and dimension, just the same as is done with the E liquid.
And the attraction of the carpet feed exactly matches that of the bait.
BB.
Hi NW,
Yes, it gives the bait another use and dimension, just the same as is done with the E liquid.
And the attraction of the carpet feed exactly matches that of the bait.
BB.
In reply to Post #26
im sure fish can instantly detect if a food item is dead or alive using its chemo receptors - dead bait (frozen) will have a completely different signal whereas live bait, live worms, snails maggots etc give of chemical sins of life, amonia production etc - im no expert but live maggots always score better than dead, same with worms etc
the second test here with the Non-enzyme paste vs the Enzyme paste is really interesting...!
im sure fish can instantly detect if a food item is dead or alive using its chemo receptors - dead bait (frozen) will have a completely different signal whereas live bait, live worms, snails maggots etc give of chemical sins of life, amonia production etc - im no expert but live maggots always score better than dead, same with worms etc
the second test here with the Non-enzyme paste vs the Enzyme paste is really interesting...!
In reply to Post #32
No doubt about that. Some of the stuff leaking from a live worm or maggot will be degraded very short time after death, frozen or not.
No doubt about that. Some of the stuff leaking from a live worm or maggot will be degraded very short time after death, frozen or not.
In reply to Post #33
Hi Viking ... how you doin´mate ?
Have you tried Surströmming( fermented Baltic Herring) in any of your tank tests ?
Would be awesome to see how the fish react to it. Can send a can over to you, if you want. 
NOT FOR THE FAINT-HEARTED
Hi Viking ... how you doin´mate ?
Have you tried Surströmming( fermented Baltic Herring) in any of your tank tests ?
Would be awesome to see how the fish react to it.
Can send a can over to you, if you want. NOT FOR THE FAINT-HEARTED
In reply to Post #34
Hi Des, all well buddy, and yourself?
Never tried the surströmning in the tank, I think it would classify as animal cruelty
Tried it ourself thou, it seem Norwegians are a bit less fuzzy about what they eat than the lads in your video.
(The guy in the white t-shirt is Danish, so he don't count)
But I would like another can, it's always fun to have at the socials.
We have some of the fermented Greenland shark for next time. Like being punched in the mouth with a bottle of ammonia.
Hi Des, all well buddy, and yourself?
Never tried the surströmning in the tank, I think it would classify as animal cruelty
Tried it ourself thou, it seem Norwegians are a bit less fuzzy about what they eat than the lads in your video.
(The guy in the white t-shirt is Danish, so he don't count)
But I would like another can, it's always fun to have at the socials.
We have some of the fermented Greenland shark for next time. Like being punched in the mouth with a bottle of ammonia.
In reply to Post #35
Quality ... very brave indeed 
Quality ... very brave indeed
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