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In reply to Post #79
Quote... It's also about what else is in the make up of the bait not just best this or that.
Exactly that. Also, some individual ingredients are absolutely bang average on their own. Put them together with other bang average on their own ingredients, ferment them and incredible things are created. There are lots of examples of this that I have found.
So many incredible things are created in the human food industry by fermentation.
Cheese... Fermented milk.
Baking... Fermentation.
Beer & Wine making... Fermentation.
The list is endless.
A very simple Google will tell anyone that fermentation is used to IMPROVE the taste & nutritional value of so many products in the human food chain. It's even used to make penicillin and other medicines.
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In reply to Post #77
Agreed, the best way of all is finding out yourself.
It's also about what else is in the make up of the bait not just best this or that.
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In reply to Post #76
AA baits sell it. Never used it myself so no idea what it's like
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In reply to Post #76
Someone who sells Beef liver powder, is going to tell you exactly that. Someone who only sells Chicken liver powder will say the opposite.... Believe what you see with your own eyes. Not what some random person says online.
It's quite simple. Try them yourself Stephen. No one who has 'discovered' that for themselves through hard work, is ever going to just spill that information for you for all to see online. All that will happen is you will get others giving their 'opinions'.
Opinions are like bum holes. Everyone has one. The actual knowledge is another matter entirely.
Be the person who gains that very knowledge in the first place. Exactly what Lincs-Carper is trying to do on this very thread. It will open up endless possibilities for your bait if you can do that over the whole broad spectrum. There's no shortcuts by asking online. Not for anything real.
Please take that in the spirit in which it's meant. To help you.
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In reply to Post #75
So my question still stands from my original post. Can anyone recommend a supplier for beef liver powder or is it only mirage baits that it's easily accessible from?
Alongside that, what is the general consensus about liver powders? On one hand there are bait companies etc that are adamant chicken liver is inferior and then there are others that say there is simply no difference.
Which is it?
If you were let's say going to make a bait with liver as the main focal point. Would using beef liver produce a better bait or would using the chicken liver result in the bait being no different?
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In reply to Post #51
Robinbankes reply post #51
Off the back of this thread, has anyone tried the raw liver route or......Letting an enzyme treated solution begin to turn naturally and incorporate it into a good fishmeal/ milk protein mix? The fact that enzymes do not switch off without deactivation via Ph or heat in extreme, it would be interesting to decipher the possibility of the natural decomposition of these ingredients post enzymatic breakdown.
Hopefully back on track, if not it’ll be gone forever which would will be a shame.
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In reply to Post #49
LOL....I here you, but i guess its just tripe. Dogs love the stuff. No accounting for taste i guess. It does bloody pong for sure.
Interesting about the beef. Again, dehydrated and powdered, i guess the possibilities of an effective blend are endless, limited only to your imagination and what the old woman will tolerate on the stench scale! lol
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I picked up some dried beef from the market yesterday as a bit of fun. Once ground to a fine powder it became apparent the the protein element is very water soluble just leaving the remaining sinews etc and the resulting liquid is a very strong smelling one. It seems that liver dried at lower temps retains almost all protein as soluble. As another point, it's been well documented that liver goes well with yeast which have good nucleotide properties so the combo of liver/sodium inosinate/msg could bring good results. I don't think liver is that reliant on amino acids as an attractant but is actually a very good palatant with the added bonus of ffaa's mixed with a good array of aromatic compounds derived from maillards reaction plus fats just makes a bloody tasty treat. To then have nucleotidea added just adds to the attraction.
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In reply to Post #48
"Has anyone tried intestines as a viable source of inclusion ? " Erm, I think that will be a resounding have I fook mate 😂
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In reply to Post #47
Lets think what about the function of the liver and what it actually does in ANY animal or human. Then, allowing for all the toxicity accumulated, dependent on feed, hormones, steroids etc, It really does make you wonder just why these organs are so attractive to carp?
Going down this animal product line, has anyone tried, heart, kidney, flesh, intestines as a viable source of inclusion? Why is everything so one dimensional? Mince these, dehydrate these, Hydrolyse these and include these. I think that you will be pleasantly surprised. Blood products,both in liquid and powdered forms have always been a winnner for Carp attraction.
From my own perspective, the days of innovation have given way to lazy imitation. The instant carp angler syndrome most definitely prevails. Those that go above and behond through personal experimentation will, with a certain level of angling ability, shine much brighter.
What you put in, you will eventually receive back for your steadfast experimentation.
Christian.......Fats are KING! 
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In reply to Post #46
Can I just throw this out there, are we using livers just as a source of amino acids. I think there is something in Liver aside from the protein. Liver powder plain and hydrolysed, has a high fat content and is rich in fat soluble vitamins.
There is definitely to my mind something that elevates it above other meals.
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In reply to Post #45
Would not the resulting hydrolysis and then subsequent dehydration, if done on a lower heat ,yet for longer, still give out the liberated amino acids from that process, thus making that powder kind of an advanced Amino 50, Keratine powder?
I would have thought that would really come into its own as a hookbait coating or an addition to a bait/basemix?
I think you could actually take that a whole step further if you chose to!
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In reply to Post #44
37c is the optimum for my protease but yes will work at higher temps up to 60c. You are correct that any dehydration after enzyme treatment will denature them making a powder just a soluble liver powder. The liquid version is better if you want to keep it enzyme active. I actually used the liquid to create an enzyme bait but that's a whole different headache
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In reply to Post #41
That's really interesting. Can I ask if the effective working temp of your protease is 37c, or is that a heat that you are comfortable with? As most enzymes, protease that is peak at around 55c what temp are you then dehydrating at as i would hazard a guess that if your dehydrating your hydro at 55c-70c as is what most dehydrators suggest, will that not inhibit activity as it generally takes a good 16hrs and if it hits the top temp for any duration, will that not then shut off activity with your resulting powder? Unless of course you are dehydrating longer on a lower heat?
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In reply to Post #42
I actually just dry thick cut lumps of liver, then dehydrate before grinding the hard chunks. Sadly Philip Harris will no longer supply to anyone outside school, colleges, uni's so I'm now using a good multi enzyme. I don't get any off cuts but obviously I can't hydrolise everything in the mixture as the substrate is around 60% protein leaving sinews etc, mind you those bits float up leaving a nice droplet effect
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