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In reply to Post #300
Yep....what I said years ago.,all come true..got a released single Beaver in my local river,done loads of damage in one area already ...
Thanks to Mr Henk cattle breeder ,himself..my local waters will never recover,nor will the ecosystems..my evenings involve daily checking of two venues,fence,mesh ,electric..if it wasn't for me these lakes are dead ,finito
So last week ,fishing my elderly friends lake,a place I have loved since aged 14,...I'm the only one allowed to fish it now,plop,bubbles ,leaping fish ...I shook my head,packed up,came home ,wondering how long those remaining few carp have left ,are they dead,ripped up on the bank ,body parts missing ..
The owner ,my friend,she's 85,I have not ,will not tell her..
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It will go more or less the same way as badgers, give them protection and when they get to such numbers they are forced to turn to prey other than that is normal to them, implement culls, usually at great financial costs, not to mention the detrimental affects to other species. some of which may never recover.
it's a result of city folk telling country folk how to run things.
I imagine most of you will now have seen video evidence of otters killing geese in the center of Wroxham on a busy saturday surrounded by holidaymakers, not the shy secretive creature it once was eh??
a cynical person might think it has seen humans before, and knows no fear of them.
signatures wont stop otters.
and yes I have lost well over a 100k worth of leney stock to almost 35lb in a lot less time than it takes to build a fence. in addition to scores of double figure tench,bream not far off the record, pike over 30lb, and roach and rudd that any angler would be thrilled to land.
then they moved onto the other wildlife, mussels, amphibians, songbirds, wildfowl, even swans are not immune from them.
they kill for fun rather than necessity, until an area is devoid of life, which probably went a long way to their previous reduction in numbers.
the clowns that made this happen are the same bunch who want wolves and bears, lynx buffalo and [insert latest crackpot idea here] into this small overcrowded island.
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In reply to Post #297
Maybe not completely run its course?? https://petition.parliament.uk/petitions/577582
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In reply to Post #296
Good for you mate,
Guess otter stuff has run it's course on here....... for now .
Well done with your 8 posts btw 
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In reply to Post #279
I've joined the angling trust today and parted with my £29
As some of us have said angling needs one voice and unless an alternative emerges the angling trust looks the only hope currently
the only way to have a voice in the angling trust is to join it
Rob Hughes has been appointed angling trust carp consultant & i think he has credibility
see his announcement on following link
https://youtu.be/UV_keLApBPo
they have helped secure a 3 rod licence, cormorant legislation and now campaigning for control of unregulated release of rehabilitated otters
the other thing i wanted to mention was twitter as I've started following groups both for and against otters, angling etc.
this has meant i have already exchanged tweets with nature lovers who love their otters...its really important we anglers maintain empathy with these people and what I've found (apart from the odd anti I've come across) is most people will listen to your opinion. what we dont need is an aggressive approach that does nothing but turn more people against angling. I believe that over time more people will be persuaded that in certain areas otters need to be controlled.
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In reply to Post #277
As it is now St Piran's Day, maybe give your evidence of the 80 plus waters that you say have been affected by otters to younger guns to get your stuff on social media mate?
So are you saying there are no venues - except the one's you know are fenced - that are worth fishing now in kernow?
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In reply to Post #293
No need to sell your carp gear mate. There will always be places to fish.
Think you missed the point, yes it was old news , but at the time he had a profile that went beyond anglers, and if no one - who are not anglers - took any notice then how is it going to happen now??
As for Ali Hamidi and the others in the monster carp fishing programs he is in on tv with, not a chance of non anglers even knowing who they are.
Jeremy Wade is a different case, river monsters is an entertainment program and very good too, but to go back to your statement about people joining the AT, it will not be happening trust - pardon the pun - me.
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In reply to Post #292
Well let’s all put the carp gear on eBay now then !
This is old news I am a massive fan of John Wilson the mans a legend but this is 2018 and a new band of anglers are in the spotlight ie Jeremy Wade Ali Hamidi & social media means every angler has a voice
The point I originally made was the AT rhetoric towards otter predatation has changed for the better
I was merely stating that that for me was enough to warrant joining and the more people we can encourage to join the better
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Not sure how many on here remember John Wilson, for all his faults he did bring angling to a lot of people on tv.
Here is an article on bbc - can't get much more exposure at the time than that - about otters:
John Wilson - Otters
This is from 2013, so for anyone on here who calls me a troll about otters, think I have been more aware than a lot who have now jumped on the bandwagon.
However, the sad thing is, if a tv presenter with the 'power' he had in the media at the time had no effect on public opinion , there is no chance now.
Tight lines to all
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In reply to Post #290
You will learn mate. 
Don't be so arrogant to suggest if 'all carp anglers' joined the AT they will make carp angling their priority lol , look on their website to see what they actually do.
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In reply to Post #288
I agree they do good work for all anglers. I was just making the point that IF all carp anglers were members carp Angling would be their number 1 priority based on fact carp Angling is the most popular genre.
I would never accept that anglers can’t be persuaded to join the AT for cost of a bag of pellets or a packet of hooks per month. Neither will I accept that the public can’t be persuaded to understand the otter problem.
It won’t be easy it will need a strategy and the best brains in Angling inc the best media stars to deliver our message. In order to do that we need one voice and the funds to do it. Birdwatchers have managed to get unilaterally behind the RSPB it’s time anglers followed suit and stood up for Angling
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The trouble is, as i’ve mentioned before, at the moment, although large stretches of river, and many stillwaters have been devestated, many venues, and anglers, so far, have not.
Lots will go on websites and social media saying what should be done but, unless it directly effects them, that’s about as far as their campaign will go.
We do need to be a strong and numerous body of people to be taken seriously. The EA, RSPB, Wildlife Trust, just to mention a few, all know what is going on with the otter but, seem to be **** scared of doing or suggesting anything?
These animals do need culling, and controlling, just like other animals that cause problems. There are other animals, causing a lot less problems than otter, that are under regular control.
Why can’t all these groups come together as one?
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In reply to Post #286
If you look at what the AT currently do, your remark about their 'agenda' being a carp anglers one shows a lack of understanding of what they try to do for ALL anglers 
If you are so socially media aware, don't waste your time with fishing social media, they already know! get wandle1 or others to give you pics of the damage and use your farcebook \ twitter presence to send them to friends, tourists boards, bbc, celebs, etc etc
NO I am not a troll, but just trying to say we know in angling what is happening in certain ares of the country with otters but somehow the message needs to get out to the public, will they care tho??
Cheers
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In reply to Post #278
Good luck persuading anyone to join the AT mate, most people will moan about paying £29 a year, heard all the arguments on other forums in the past about what they do for the money etc etc, not seen it on here yet to be fair.
I doubt it will happen, sorry to be so pessimistic, but NOT only carp anglers every angler in my opinion should join.
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In reply to Post #279
Couldn’t agree more 👍🏻. The Angling Trust appears the only option for one voice and once we join we then have a voice. I respect their stance on cormorants and think they are at least starting to see the otter menace fir what it is...I’m only 1 noddy carp angler but I will pester the hell out of Angling Times Korda Nash etc on social media to encourage them to speak out and ensure we try and drive up the membership. If all carp anglers were members of the angling trust their agenda would be carp Angling s agenda. I don’t see any other solution.
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In reply to Post #284
From an angling point of view I'd say definitely,you really don't know what your going to find up the bank dead..
But hey ho,we're only anglers,and anglers and angling doesn't count..
But cute cuddly mustiladae does count...so were bucked..
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In reply to Post #283
Must be like living on a knife edge mate 
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In reply to Post #282
Righto,back from fence checking,no debris on the mesh or wires,no spraint on any prominent stones in the river..
Lots of deer tracks around lake perimeter in the snow...
Well,I couldn't have put it better Steve...but as a fourth generation angler,if my place gets done again,that's it I'm done,I have seen far too much ,I know too much now,mentally..
If you got to know me ,you'd find id helped literally loads of local youngsters stay off the booze n drugs that's rife in Cornwall..but trying to explain or show others the full extent of the ecosystem damage is a hard thing to do...
Otters are cute,cuddly and can do no wrong,springwatch says so,so it must be true...👎
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Adam, so far, locally to me, the otter hasn’t taken a foothold but, i have no doubt, that it will, unless something realistic is done.
I do know the devestation, and heart ache and anger it has caused in Devon and Cornwall, as after i quit fishing, when on holiday, the draw of these beautiful waters, was what made me give into my deep passion for carp angling again.
I hired gear, and fished some of these waters, and instantly fell off the wagon. I was happy again, as i realised angling was the thing missing in my life.
Ever since, i have watched and heard of how these beautiful tranquil waters have been devasted by these ****ing otter, and nobody seems able to stop the destruction?
The fishery owners are left with a hole in the ground, full of water. Some could say a fishery should be able to pay for fencing but, some charge hardly anything to fish, and cannot afford fencing.
I worked on a barn a few years ago, the farmer allowed me to fish his pond as a gesture, and sometimes his b&b guests were allowed to fish.
They started the b&b as money was tight, so couldn’t afford fencing. They have no fish left now, and used to see the otter on there regularly, until the fish were gone.
I imagine all the other places i fished would tell a similar story. I know when i phone them, they just say, we don’t have fishing any more, and when i ask why, the otter is always the reason.
So, i feel very sad, angry and frustrated, and i can only imagine how you feel Adam.
Surely presenting evidence, from all concerned including the RSPB, EA, the Wildlife Trust etc, and asking for cull in the worst hit areas, is plausible? If it’s not plausible what is?
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In reply to Post #280
Ok Dave ,thanks for the reply...
Well,I started collating evidence in 1990 when all my local waters in my area,the Tamar valley slowly and surely became destroyed by predation,I had good long term friends pack it in ,carping,and fishery owners suffer mentally and physically as their business went down the pan..
Cornwall is a small county or was in angling terms,I know lots of people,fishery owners etc...and being a trained photographer and at one time,for over ten years a full time angler,and heavily into nature,countryside and bushcraft,I did indeed build up a huge amount of predation collation evidence of Cornish otter predation..
My saying is no fence,no fish,this is because I cannot find a water that has not been predated by the otter to a low or high level..
Unfortunately I have many,many sad stories,and photos to 100% back up what I have learnt...
Like the human body ,the veins etc ,are likened to the streams,ditches,small spate rivers in the Tamar valley,these motorways ALL are interconnected to the river Kensey in Launceston,guess what's at North pertherwin,? the Tamar otter park,..they have or had info saying how many they used to let go plus,youtube footage of herons being killed ,not to mention their own carp,when a otter got in to the lake,their lake and the owners proudly showed this on youtube..
All this info has been passed on via Carpforum or PAG...
Right now I am witness to a local estate lake being destroyed by this Apex pred...yet another beautiful ecosystem destroyed...for all time
I think along with a lot of people down here the Tamar park,are absolutely detested...not to mention the other people who let otters go....I could write a book very easily on what I have learnt,far,far more than I let on on an open forum
I haven't been to uni,nor am I a clever dicky,I do however have a huge amount of passion for angling and the countryside,...
Right,I'm off to check my fencing round my lake...
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In reply to Post #277
I mean by flushing, use of one way gates, leaving gates open, running dogs through the complex that sort of thing
There are few people that keep otters as pets for obvious reasons ... if any are kept, and there are some then they have to have a licence to keep them the same as a zoo in captivity. That is monitored ongoing. Most of those captives are Asian Short Clawed otters and would be illegal to release into the wild as it is a non native species
It is not illegal to release an orphaned otter that has been rehabilitated back into the wild so any prosecution would be unlikely
I personally fully get the amount of distrust and hatred as I experience it every day! Partly, this is down to not understanding some intentions and they are suspicious which is understandable. Portraying the otter wrongly is a pet hate of mine although that said, if its used in the right context then thats fine but its important to make sure its done in the right way
80 waters in Cornwall is worrying - I would be interested to see any evidence you have on that - otters@ukwot.org
Dave
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| | | Frenzy | | Posts: 11403 |  | | [ MODERATOR ] | |
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In reply to Post #278
A single voice is needed, once an angling trust member joins he/she has the power to push for more answers.
Bitching on facebook and all the silly predation groups that are springing up are nothing but a platform for un educated people to moan about everything and do nothing to help
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In reply to Post #261
Now the Angling Trust have responded do you think all UK carp anglers should join the angling trust?
i am not a member but may now join following their statement about otters plus the work they are doing on behalf of carp anglers. Angling needs a single voice and whilst there are many smaller organisations doing great work anglers need to lobby in numbers which today isn't happening
For example twitter, the angling trust has 16k followers on twitter RSPB has nearly 300k
The AT posted following statement earlier this week
Angling Trust @AnglingTrust Feb 27
The @UKParliament has dismissed the recent petition for 'non-lethal' control of #otters. However, the @AnglingTrust is pressing @NaturalEngland for regulation of the release of rehabilitated otters: http://bit.ly/2ozGTPO
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In reply to Post #276
Hello Dave,what do you mean by removing an otter by other means...?
Also what are your feelings and understanding of individuals with their own private agenda who keep otters as shall we say pets.and then put them into a previously otter free area,with no viable food sources other than local fisheries?
And how successful would a private prosecution be against a local otter releaser as or under the heading wildlife crime be..with much evidence to support it...
Plus,and I'm being upfront does the otter world understand the huge growing undercurrent of distrust and hatred towards rewilders and conservation people..?if they don't then they have surely misunderstood the angling fraternity..
Plus,as an aside,quite a few members of the non angling public are learning that the otter is not as cuddly as they perceive,especially now the damage to birds are being more widely recognized..
Down here in Cornwall the damage to water birds and carp angling is beyond repair now...at my last count it was over eighty plus waters that I have evidence of otter predation....it's ruined now...unless you have a fence..
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In reply to Post #266
Myself and Skeff had a meeting in London with the head of licencing in NE re trapping and in little over a year we have had over 60 contacts for help and advice. That alone demonstrates a use of the CL36 ...... had that not been in place we would never have had that much contact so the fact that there have been few actual trapping applications submitted is a good thing. Trapping for us is a last resort if we fail to move the otter by other means so, actually its far more of a success than people give it credit for
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In reply to Post #274
It sets precedents that ensure Natural England must assess any application for licensed control objectively, based upon the facts of the application and not take account of public opinion or any value judgements of their staff over the relative "importance" of game birds or buzzards (or in the case of otters, otters or fish).
So relevant but the NE licence application process we went though to obtain the CL 36 trapping licence remains clear and thorough.
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Interested to hear your views on this ramifications of this landmark case in which a gamekeeper was given the right to shoot protected BOP to protect livestock.
Makes very interesting reading and I certainly a (small) step in the right direction...
Full link...
http://www.shootinguk.co.uk/news/gamekeeper-finally-wins-licence-for-buzzard-control-as-high-court-overrules-natural-england-refusal-49505
Couple of extracts..
The Judicial Review at the High Court has quashed Natural England’s refusal to grant him a licence to control buzzards, a battle that has been going on for four years.
Mr Waddell added: “This Judicial Review was never about changing the law – buzzards, although now very common, remain fully protected birds and the wildlife licensing system quite rightly has safeguards to ensure that there cannot be a ‘free-for-all’ against them. Rather, the case was about seeking the court’s view on whether the existing licensing system, available for the control of wild birds since 1981, was being fairly administered by Natural England. The court found that it was not. It is the right result, for individual justice and the countryside "
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| | | Frenzy | | Posts: 11403 | | | [ MODERATOR ] | |
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In reply to Post #271
Agree
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In reply to Post #268
The way i understand it Nick, is you can only apply for legal trapping, if the water is fenced/enclosed?
Because of all the red tape, by time permission is granted, it’s often too late.
Many unfenced venues don’t have the option, i’m not just talking about stillwaters, miles of river stretches are now baron of any fish, mainly, because of otter.
Most places, who have been wiped out, are hardly going to apply for trapping permission when they have nothing left?
So, a lot of those angry people, vent their anger on the net, and forums.
The way the government paint the picture, is everything’s peachy, when they are only too aware of what’s really going on.
Hopefully the other things that are happening to otters will keep the numbers down. If it’s left to the government, we’re all ****ed (in my opinion)
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In reply to Post #270
That would be a major step forward to be able to trap an unfenced water but the problem remains of where does the Otter get relocated too as at the moment it has to be released directly outside the fence.
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In reply to Post #269
But we're talking test cases, the process needs testing. Don't ask, don't get. I work for/with NE, they're not completely closed to applications from unfenced waters, you just need to build a comprehensive case and from what I understand that's not been done yet.
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In reply to Post #268
taken from the license application :
This licence may only be used at fisheries that are enclosed by fencing that meets the minimum
specification set out in Annex B. Where the fishery is fenced but the fencing does not meet the
standard in Annex B, Natural England must be consulted before any action is taken under this
licence.
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In reply to Post #267
That's not entirely true
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In reply to Post #266
The lack of applications is because you can only apply for a license to trap when the fishery is already fenced and an Otter has got in.
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In reply to Post #265
There is no evidence, if you look at the number of applications for trapping then it can only suggest that there's not a big problem. If there was a big problem then NE would be inundated with applications. Of course we all know differently and there's a plethora of 'evidence' on social media but they're challenging people to go through the correct channels.
Instead of everyone moaning on fb and posting up photos of otters from other countries under the false belief that they're our own native otter, anglers & fishery managers need to be gathering evidence and compiling reports of lost earnings etc and submitting those. There's a system in place, it's just not being tested. Only when this happens will the 'evidence' become visible.... In my opinion.
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In reply to Post #264
Most of it (in my opinion) they’re basically saying how great it is that a top predator is back, gaining strength, and no evidence of any real destruction to other wildlife. Also a lot more, that does’t tie in with all the reports of fish and other wildlife destruction, that’s frequently reported.
Or are you reading something different to me?
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In reply to Post #263
What specifically is laughable about it?
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Their government response and outlook, is still laughable though, and shows they have their heads up their arses!
You’re receiving this email because you signed this petition: “For the introduction of non-lethal means of control of the Otter (Lutra- lutra)”.
The Government has responded to the petition you signed – “For the introduction of non-lethal means of control of the Otter (Lutra- lutra)”.
Government responded:
While the Government understand concerns raised about the impact otters may have on fish populations, they are a protected species and there are no plans to introduce methods to control their numbers
The Government understands that there are concerns that otters may have adverse impacts on fish populations and wildlife more generally but we do not accept that the otter ‘has become a detriment to the river environment’.
Mainly as a result of the banning of certain pesticides, otters are now once more present in each county in England. They are an important indicator of the great strides we have made in improving our waterways, with more than 5,300 miles of rivers being improved since 2010. There have been no reintroductions of otters by conservation groups since the late 1990s and the bulk of the recovery of the otter has been through natural re-colonisation.
A healthy otter population results from favourable conditions in the natural environment, including water quality and the availability of prey (including fish), as well as availability of breeding sites. Otters are found at low density, and limit their own populations through territorial activity. Carrying capacity is determined by environmental conditions.
There is no evidence to suggest that otters have a major impact on wildlife as a whole, and although localised impacts could occur where otters have not been previously present for some time, they are a natural part of the freshwater ecosystem and we believe these systems will adapt to the return of the natural top predator.
We do recognise that otters can in some instances impact on still water fisheries, which is why there is provision through the Angling Improvement Fund (AIF), administered by the Angling Trust on the Environment Agency’s behalf, to help deliver improvements including projects to protect fisheries from otter predation through the erection of otter-proof fencing. Further information can be found on the Angling Trust website at: www.anglingtrust.net.
Otters are a protected species and it is an offence to harm capture, kill, disturb or injure any animal and/or damage, destroy or obstruct their resting or sheltering places. Therefore any methods of control, including non-lethal methods, would constitute an offence. A licence may be granted by Natural England to catch and move an otter trapped inside a suitably otter-proof fenced fishery to prevent loss of fish stocks.
Department for the Environment, Food and Rural Affairs
Click this link to view the response online:
https://petition.parliament.uk/petitions/209735?reveal_response=yes
The Petitions Committee will take a look at this petition and its response. They can press the government for action and gather evidence. If this petition reaches 100,000 signatures, the Committee will consider it for a debate.
The Committee is made up of 11 MPs, from political parties in government and in opposition. It is entirely independent of the Government. Find out more about the Committee: https://petition.parliament.uk/help#petitions-committee
Thanks,
The Petitions team
UK Government and Parliament
Crazy but true 
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In reply to Post #258
I think a lot of the people knew what the response would be to be fair... Nice to see a response from government, the first of many steps 
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| | | Frenzy | | Posts: 11403 | | | [ MODERATOR ] | |
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In reply to Post #260
Hi mate,
The AT are shortly about to provide a response to the petition rejection as will the PAG at some point soon I guess.
In the meantime, hold fire
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In reply to Post #259
Not posted before so hello & just like to say great forum
Given govt has rejected otter petition what should the members of this forum do?
Join the anglingtrust? Im not currently a member but may now join
their otter policy isn’t in line with our thinking but the only way you change policy is to lobby and best way to do that maybe as a member
I support PAG not sure what if any other platform is out there
This is a complex issue which will take time but angling needs one voice if there is to be any change
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| | | Frenzy | | Posts: 11403 | | | [ MODERATOR ] | |
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In reply to Post #257
Petition rejected
Hate to say.....
Told you so
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Signed
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| | | Frenzy | | Posts: 11403 | | | [ MODERATOR ] | |
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In reply to Post #255
It's such a worry mate...I found a small jack pike today...very fresh, well chewed...couldn't say by what as it had been chewed right to the back bone, which isn't classic otter marks...may be a cormorant had it, spat it out during flight and the rats etc had a chew...I'll never know I guess...just makes your stomach churn...
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In reply to Post #254
I know that feeling Joss. I've got one of the PAG cameras on loan, I've been checking it each morning & they're regular as clockwork. Out of the river at 2am then off around site looking for a route in. Back in the river at 2:30. Got Monday off work to get some fortifications done as I've found a few weaknesses.
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| | | Frenzy | | Posts: 11403 | | | [ MODERATOR ] | |
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In reply to Post #253
Thanks mate..
I also walk my lake daily, dreading what I might find, even with it being fenced...
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In reply to Post #252
Joss, i fully understand, and sympathise mate, and as i’ve said many times before, you are all doing good things, and a sight more than anybody else on the matter.
I think i am just going to do all i can do, which involves, a few prayers, fingers crossed, and the occasional burying my head in the sand, hoping it will never happen to me.
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| | | Frenzy | | Posts: 11403 | | | [ MODERATOR ] | |
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In reply to Post #251
mate, its the most frustrating topic I have ever got involved with..it drives me insane, especially of late!!
I get that many phonecalls, txt, e-mails, pms etc regarding this and I so wish I could offer a more concrete solution.
There isn't one....
fence, or loose your stock at some point!
if you cant fence, there is currently no means of legal protection.
do I think there should be more help...YES of course I do...what help?
less restrictions on fencing waters, less red tape
more education surrounding otters is needed, for anglers and non anglers
are otters over protected...definitely!
should we drop the protection and what will that achieve?
well...my take on it..
drop protection of otters....what will it achieve...not a lot I suspect apart from every fishery owner applying for a shotgun licence and loads of dead otters with a massive backlash towards angling from non anglers, then the otter will be straight back on the protected species list...and we start again
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In reply to Post #250
Yeah, i know Les from way back mate, the Carp Cellar etc, although haven’t spoken to him in a long time.
That’s very sad about the fish mate, and these findings are a stark grissly wake up call, and a reminder, that the otter problem is very real. Yet still very little being done about it.
I’m wracking my brains trying to think of something, that would gather ground quickly in this nightmare. I’m constantly being told, i’d be wasting my time though?
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In reply to Post #249
You can't take away the history surrounding Redmire Steve but it's such a shame the water is a pale shadow of what it once was, I fish with someone who has known Les Bamford since the 80's also another friend of mine knows him well and helped out with a few carp stockings so over the years I have been told a few bits and pieces and have an understanding of things that have gone on at the lake.
A few of the remains of what was found of the fish at the day ticket lake that holds carp to 36lb (not Redmire).
upload image from mobile
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In reply to Post #248
I had heard rumours of predation at Redmire Ian, and some i spoke too played it down.
Really is a bloody shame.
I know what you mean about local fishing, i was lucky in having many good waters on my doorstep, or not far away. I still used to like a change though, so did travel around quite a bit.
Since getting back into it, i want to fish local again now, because of limited time etc but, many of the clubs and syndicates i once took for granted, now have long waiting lists, and at my age, by time i’ll get an interview, i’ll have a zimmer frame!
Then, one water that is dear to me, i managed to get a ticket for again, and finally decided to tackle it again, for old times sake, it had an oxygen crash, and massive fish kill.
It took years to get back from the last fish kill in the 90’s.
I was trully gutted, i can imagine how people feel when the otter strikes now. To have everything taken, in one swoop, and not being able to do anything is awful.
I’m doing a bit of long distance angling again now, which i’m enjoying apart from traffic. Might be moving soon too, so new challenges hopefully.
Never fished Redmire, although stood on the banks there twice. I didn’t feel the magic there though, as i think that’s long gone.
Lovely water though, amazing in fact, back in the day, and a lovely part of the world you live in, which should have an abundance of good angling, instead of the doom and gloom.
I do honestly feel for you mate.
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In reply to Post #244
Not far at all as the crowflies Steve probably less than 5 miles about 8 or 9 by road, Redmire has been predated for sometime now.
I've done my days of travelling to lakes around the Uk and I've been quite happy fishing locally the last few years but everywhere around Herefordshire is getting predated, very very sad times.
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In reply to Post #245
I should like to add a welcome to Dave Webb on here. We may be on the other side of the coin, so to speak, but I will always acknowledge a reasonable man, and Dave does appear to be such a person.
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In reply to Post #245
So, what do you suggest Dave, i mean apart from the legal trapping in the confines of a fenced water?
Are there other plans, or ideas in place? The otter is eradicating fish, birds and small mammals, at an alarming rate, and nobody apart from possibly some under the radar, are doing anything? 
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In reply to Post #242
I agree, I am fully aware that some are dealt with under the radar - everyone knows that!
It still isn't the solution - its just an act of frustration that will eventually lead to someone being fined or imprisoned
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In reply to Post #243
Ian, you’re absolutely right mate, about what happens to poachers.
It seems to be like that, anywhere that has good salmon runs. I used to do a bit of work for a family, who had a nice stretch of the Test. Salmon, sea trout etc were there in good numbers. My mate and me were often invited to fish, great days on there.
Then we found out how they dealt with poachers, turns out they were a well known, no nonsense family, and they had a lot of security blokes on their books.
Same on parts of the Spey, Tay, Tweed and Dee etc. They deal their own justice on poachers. I fished the Spey many moons ago, and our ghillie told me what happens to poachers, or anything else that helps itself to the stock, uninvited.
That’s a real shame about the local lake mate, just reading your post made me sad and frustrated. Is it far from Redmire? As i guess they could easily discover that too in time?
Bloody terrible state of affairs, like the petition, i get that it probably wasn’t as well thought out as it could have been. I honestly believe their intentions were good though, and they are probably very frustrated like lots of us.
Not sure what we’re supposed to do, wait for the otter to eat everything, then quit fishing, we won’t even be able to sell our gear, as it will be of no use to anybody?
We could all join an otter watching club? 
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In reply to Post #242
I can relate to the Salmon Poaching Steve as the Wye was heavily poached and some of the punishments handed out to those that were caught are unprintable, they were always one step ahead of the authorities but the land owners were a bit sharper same with the deer poaching.
I got word yesterday from a good friend that one of the day ticket waters near Ross on Wye that holds carp to mid 30's and probably the best venue around here for fish of that size for open access lake fishing has been predated by an Otter in the last day or two, he was walking the banks and found the evidence yesterday.
Unfortunately the guy who owns and runs it is in for a shock when word gets about as he will go from a very busy day ticket to a ghost venue, its a natural water that nobody really knows how the stock got put in there but the owner has had a good run of taking money on the bank, the problem now is that's all he was in it for (opportunist profiteering) a fence wont be happening as it means spending money also restocking means spending money so again it wont be happening, its a shame as the specimen carp fishing around here is pretty poor I can only think of one fenced fishery in and around our neck of the woods.
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In reply to Post #241
Cormorants were left to do as they pleased, until evidence showed they were causing untold losses to fish stocks. Now there is control of them, not enough control but control none the less.
The main problem with the otter situation is, apart from Joss, Mark and yourself doing all the work and putting in the time you all do, there is very little else, if anything being done.
It really is time, in fact is was quite a while ago, that if anglers care as much about their angling as they profess too, that they should be acting on it.
Some anglers aren’t even aware of any issue regarding otter, some aren’t currently being effected by them.
I also think, with respect, if you think some aren’t prepared to take the matter into their own hands, you’re either a little naive, which i doubt, or not being realistic. I used to shoot, (legally) i can tell you now, i had requests to deal with all sorts of animals, many that were protected. When i used to refuse, and point out the law to certain people, many would say, who will know? Or, i won’t say anything, i promise.
These were quite petty cases too. Like i say, what about a nice stretch of river, with some lovely salmon runs, and the otter is ravaging the place, do you honestly believe the owners are going to let that happen?
I’ve fished stretch of rivers years ago for salmon, where if poachers were caught, they had certain things inflicted on them. What kind of reception do you think an otter would receive? If we’re to discuss these things, lets at least be honest and realistic.
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In reply to Post #239
James, Buzzards are not in same category ... otters are protected under schedule 5/6 of the W & C act and are also a listed EPS species. Whether that's right or wrong, I'm sure there are many that will fear for angling if one is ever caught doing so. Whilst we know it happens, it will eventually lead to very bad press for angling which is currently whether agreed or not is and always will be classed as a bloodsport no matter what and the backlash that it would cause is, something that I personally would not want to see.
I have said many times before on other pages that control or culling will not make any difference, even if you got rid of all otters you will still have predation and the otter would simply be replaced by another predator - the next one the chai if you like
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In reply to Post #238
So, do you have any viable ideas about what “might” be done to offer any hope?
Or, should we as anglers, just keep getting fu**ed over, because of the misguided attitude of otter lovers?
I live among some of the best venuse in the country, and so far they have not seen the destruction and heart ache those furry b*st*rds cause. However, i am not selfish and naive in thinking it’s not my problem, as i know it easily could be.
Also, some other areas that i fished years ago, are now finished because of the otter.
For angling to have any kind of future, the otter problem needs to be addressed. Other than that, we all sit back tight lipped, hoping it will never happen to us. For too many though, it already has.
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In reply to Post #238
That's a bold statement to make Dave saying the first angler caught killing an otter will end angling as we know it. Personally I doubt it will. If anything it might be the catalyst for something to change, and maybe Natural England might consider the same route as they have done, by issuing a license to someone like they have for buzzards, which I think are in the same category as otters??
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In reply to Post #236
Your missing the point ... dealing with or culling otters is nothing like any other predator. Their behaviour is very complex and is nothing like that of fox, badger, rabbit or rat.
There are closed seasons in place for most species because there are set times of year for breeding - with otters there is not, they can produce young at any time of year.
Agree that illegal removal takes place and that worries me - more so because I was brought up with angling and the first person to actually get caught doing it will end angling as we know and love it and for that reason alone it should not be encouraged
Problem is, if you remove otters from one area the void will be filled within weeks so back to square one
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In reply to Post #231
Pag and AT don't want nothing to do with it as you say, but there are members of both organisations who do.
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In reply to Post #234
Hi and welcome.
Well obviously the areas that have been ravaged the hardest would be the first port of call?
Male or female, doesn’t matter, either way, it cuts down on reproduction.
Females, lactating? So if we’re getting sentimental at this stage, what’s the point?
When other pest, are culled or controlled apart from deer etc nobody worries if an animal is carrying, or feeding young?
Rabbits, rats, carion birds, fox, badger, grey squirrel and a good few others are culled on a regular basis, because of the issues they cause.
So, if enough evidence is presented that these animals are a pest, which they clearly are, why shouldn’t a cull be allowed?
The ultimate would be, if they were added to the general licence, then would be dealt with as and when they they present themselves as a pest.
I.e. wiping out a fishery, devestating the stocks of fish, birds and small mamals, on a stretch of river or canal.
Taking away the livelihood of a fish farm, wiping out a pond, basically presenting themselves as pests?
Eventually some will take the law into their own hands, i would take a guess and say, that some of the best salmon beats, have had otter come calling. I wonder, what the ghillie would make of that, grin and bear it? I have my own ideas.
Surely a legal cull is best for everybody, and in the long term, even the otter.
What do i know anyway, i’m just another angry and frustrated angler?
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| | | Frenzy | | Posts: 11403 | | | [ MODERATOR ] | |
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In reply to Post #234
Loads of question the BS haven't got a clue how to respond to
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In reply to Post #233
Because a "controlled" cull would not be controlled and you have to prove that culling would show that it contributes to the solution of a problem. Given that it would have no effect by culling just some from one or two areas, then this will never be granted by law. How would you exercise the cull? How/which animals would you select for culling? How would you ensure that your not culling a female that's lactating cubs? How many would you cull? How would you know what the actual population was in the proposed cull area? What ratios (male/female) would you cull?
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Perhaps a petition that clearly states culling, (in a humane manor) would be more clear, and a better idea?
Even castrated otter can still wipe out lots of fish, birds and other animals.
Why aren’t we all pushing for a controlled cull?
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In reply to Post #226
Yes, possibly Ken, might be because i’m and angler though?  Well at least i like to think i am.
We’re all people though, eh?
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| | | Frenzy | | Posts: 11403 | | | [ MODERATOR ] | |
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In reply to Post #230
Simply put...you can't,,,nor won't.
They knew full well that they want castration and moving otters 20 miles "up stream" when that petition was wrote...they also want a cull but daren't say that in the petition.
PAG told them NOT ton release the petition, Angling Trust wants no connection with it and the UWOT a has asked them to remove anything that may seem as a connection to the BS and the petition.
Without being overly blunt, they haven't got a clue, but I do understand ones frustration.
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The Barbel Society have released a statement to clarify what exactly the petition was asking for in terms of "non-lethal methods"... If anything it's just raising more questions. This extract, for example:
"we had to come with something that was all inclusive that would appeal to all people and to be honest we didn't want a cull or to suggest the eradication of the Otter, we wanted to create control and to reduce the Otters numbers in specific locations and maybe instigate new legislation.
Non-lethal is a scientific term used in the control of many predators by scientists and biologists across the world, from Russia, to Canada, to Australia via Africa, its methods are eclectic and considerable, and include everything other than killing, it was and is impossible to list all options either on the petition or here, we also did not want to detract from the main thrust of the petition of an awareness of an acute problem by creating argument and debate on particular suggestions of what we see as control, yes there are currently modest non lethal controls that cover stillwaters, but no solutions for rivers, we also saw the ambiguous and vague text of the petition to be its strength"
So they want to reduce numbers in certain areas but don't want a cull. All of a sudden that suggestion of castration perhaps makes sense! Either that or they're hoping to impose restraining orders on otters in certain parts of the country.
All joking aside, could someone 'in the know' please explain to me how you can reduce numbers of a species without culling them? The only ways that I can think of are to prevent them from breeding or to introduce a predator.
Anyone have a good design for a wolf & bear proof fence?
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In reply to Post #228
I think we all know what response it will get.........
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| | | Frenzy | | Posts: 11403 | | | [ MODERATOR ] | |
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In reply to Post #220
lets see what response it gets
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| | | Frenzy | | Posts: 11403 | | | [ MODERATOR ] | |
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In reply to Post #217
How strange.,,,,the petition was condemned by certain members of both PAG and AT
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In reply to Post #225
Surely your very post is nit picking, Steve... 
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Anglers are people aren’t they? Some are also nit pickers it seems?
Just for the record, non anglers, who are also people, also suffer because of the otter
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In reply to Post #223
Agreed.
As said before anglers views on otters don't mean anything to non anglers sadly.
However, saw a bit of HFW Wild West program about Abbotsbury Swannery in Dorset, imagine what would / will happen when / if they get there?
That might stir a bit of public opinion but sadly I doubt it .
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In reply to Post #221
It shows people have had enough, if nothing else
It shows anglers have had enough.
'People' don't give a toss about dead carp, barbel, chub, bream etc, not even about the odd bird or two. As far as the 'people' are concerned otters are lovely, cuddly, litte ottery-poos! How cute.
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In reply to Post #221
Exactly that mate
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In reply to Post #220
It shows people have had enough, if nothing else
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In reply to Post #219
Bravo to all those who signed the petition to bring it over the 10k mark
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In reply to Post #217
It's died a death now anyway, doesn't look like it'll get enough votes. Let's hope they don't try again as the cause will begin to lose credibility.
93,000 signatures short of being considered for debate.
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In reply to Post #217
I signed it but I don't believe it will go anywhere. I'd say most not if the signatures are similar.
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In reply to Post #216
I think we are all aware of Joss, PAG, Dave Webb and any other person before the petition was started.
Just so you are aware even members of PAG have been signing the petition, and members of the AT, even though they have come out and opposed it, the general angler have signed it, people in the trade have signed it
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In reply to Post #214
Maybe if and I mean a big if you listened and researched otters and looked into what PAG are trying to do you may appreciate what people like Joss (frenzy) are trying to do,
And one thing he does is answers questions based on facts and as far has I’m aware this is all voluntary.
Remember Mr Barbel we can all go gun ho on this and maybe some would love us to do this but PAG go about the problem in the right way.
I would love to know what you signed the petition for.
I don’t know Joss but appreciate what he does for my hobby.
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| | | Frenzy | | Posts: 11403 | | | [ MODERATOR ] | |
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In reply to Post #214
Well I'm glad you know what you've signed for because ive asked loads of people and none have a clue, but I'm well aware you are with the BS and your background knowledge is very different to those who have merely signed it for the sake of it...it will, if not already fall flat in its face due to its content...
But as mentioned before, good luck.
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In reply to Post #213
I'm sure one day a beer would be good, but I'm not angry, I'm proud I put my name down on the petition. I'm aware the work you have all done, and I'm sure your do plenty more, I'm just supporting a different way
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| | | Frenzy | | Posts: 11403 | | | [ MODERATOR ] | |
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In reply to Post #212
Shame mate...I'll extend that offer...I'm not the enemy mate...dont shot the ones that can help the most and we can all learn from each other,,mwe have had some debate, we share different views...just remember I was Mr angry when my lake was predated upon for 3/4 yrs and I lost half of my stock that were nearly 50 yrs old...so,yeah..I was proper miffed...today...ive learnt how to cage that, Chanel it into something constructive...and along with mark, dave and other key pple, we have achieved so much...lots that are in very higher levels I can't talk about openly...so don't hate, embrace like I had to...makes you a much more planted person and you will get further.
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In reply to Post #211
Maybe another time for that beer, unfortunately like most, poxy work will get in the way.
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| | | Frenzy | | Posts: 11403 | | | [ MODERATOR ] | |
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In reply to Post #210
Don't understand that bit, but I'm sure I will get over it.
Fancy a beer on Friday, ive got the day off...we can have a proper chat about this and probably end up laughing it all off...
Now..where's that email addy to congratulate Mark Owen for the AT statement 😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😜😂😂😂😜
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In reply to Post #209
Apart from your crying on ukwot?
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| | | Frenzy | | Posts: 11403 | | | [ MODERATOR ] | |
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In reply to Post #207
😂😂😂😂😂...your so funny mate. I'm enjoying this and won't go crying cause ive not got a clue about the subject ....admire your passion though ...gotta give that one to you...
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| | | Frenzy | | Posts: 11403 | | | [ MODERATOR ] | |
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In reply to Post #205
Haha...Ill take that as a compliment mate 😂
I call it unique 😂
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In reply to Post #205
Better than being a c...
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| | | Frenzy | | Posts: 11403 | | | [ MODERATOR ] | |
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In reply to Post #203
I get sent things from most angling and wildlife groups through friends who know what they are in about, focused on and understand the process..intelligent chaps they mate 😜
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| | | Frenzy | | Posts: 11403 | | | [ MODERATOR ] | |
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In reply to Post #202
But I can explain how we may get there..Mr barbel ain't got a clue..😂😂
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In reply to Post #202
Of course, just choosing different paths to get there
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In reply to Post #200
am I missing something surely you and frenzy want the same outcome?
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| | | Frenzy | | Posts: 11403 | | | [ MODERATOR ] | |
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In reply to Post #200
😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂
Mr barbel must try harder 😜😂
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In reply to Post #197
Sorry for one moment I thought you had grew a set
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| | | Frenzy | | Posts: 11403 | | | [ MODERATOR ] | |
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In reply to Post #195
That's even better..it's in Mk site..lol...
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| | | Frenzy | | Posts: 11403 | | | [ MODERATOR ] | |
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In reply to Post #192
Hate to disappoint you but no, I can't ..you can though 😂😂😂😂
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In reply to Post #194
Sorry, which petition? The one Ken mentioned or the current one?
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Well said Mark the work done by the PAG could be seriously undermined by this ridiculous petition as has been stated before dialogue is the only way forward.
In response to the picture of the other killing a swan that was taken in Canada!
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In reply to Post #193
Where did the petition originate from?
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In reply to Post #186
Good.
There's an awful lot of detail and complexity in this debate but the basic issue with this petition is that the petition is demanding something that already exists!
Anyone can apply to Natural England for a Licence to control an otter that is causing damage already.
When it gets to 10,000 votes and Govt has to respond. they will go to the senior Natural England staff Joss, myself and others have been meeting for the past three years about the issue and ask,
"What is your view on this petition calling for the humane control of otters?"
And be told
"The mechanism that allows control of otters that are causing damage to a fishery exists already. Here's the form you can use to apply for a licence and these are the criteria we use to assess whether it is granted or not".
It's like motorists starting a petition demanding the right to drive safely on the motorway at seventy miles an hour.....
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In reply to Post #191
Can you not do it then?
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| | | Frenzy | | Posts: 11403 | | | [ MODERATOR ] | |
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In reply to Post #190
Someone please screenshot the responses on this petition from the BS facebook page..it's comical
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| | | Frenzy | | Posts: 11403 | | | [ MODERATOR ] | |
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In reply to Post #189
It will have been noted mate...rspb aren't fussed about anglers at all...I wonder why when they get the ammo we give them in form of pointless petitions 😄😄
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In reply to Post #187
Will one of these be one of the sponsors of the RSPB then who are watching this thread mate?
https://www.rspb.org.uk/join-and-donate/join-us/corporate-supporters/aldi/
Sorry but the whole thing has to be taken away from carp anglers and made aware to the general public.... not that they will give a sh*t about fish kills, but bird deaths might be a very small step forward to get a message out there.... maybe .
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| | | Frenzy | | Posts: 11403 | | | [ MODERATOR ] | |
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In reply to Post #186
Good on the AT
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| | | Frenzy | | Posts: 11403 | | | [ MODERATOR ] | |
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In reply to Post #185
Trust me...you would be extremely surprised who sees things on social media...nothing goes un noticed especially re this topic
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I see the Angling Trust are now distancing themselves from this petition too.
*** Angling Trust response to Barbel Society petition ***
The Angling Trust was not consulted on the wording of this petition despite holding a meeting with the Barbel Society on otter predation in October 2017 and agreeing to work together through the Angling Trust’s specialist angling group on this issue, which involves numerous other organisations.
Whilst this petition will no doubt provide a useful snapshot of anglers’ frustrations with the impacts of otter predation, there is a danger that the wording and lack of clarity about what is meant by “non-lethal means of control” will either be misinterpreted or dismissed out of hand by government ministers. The Angling Trust has written to the Society asking for clarification but as this has not been forthcoming we are therefore unable to support this petition in its current form, but we do understand and share many of the concerns raised by its authors.
The Angling Trust is actively pursuing with Natural England and the Environment Agency a number of measures to manage the impact of otters on fisheries, as agreed with the Barbel Society last year.
The Angling Trust & Fish Legal continue to deliver a wide range of campaigns and legal action focussed on improving water quality, restoring healthy river flows and habitat in our rivers so that fish stocks are better placed to withstand the pressures of all forms of predation.
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In reply to Post #184
Yeah but with the greatest of respect mate, no one here doubts the time effort and passion you put into this ..... BUT who apart from a few carp anglers are going to see it??
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| | | Frenzy | | Posts: 11403 | | | [ MODERATOR ] | |
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In reply to Post #183
There's currently a photo of an otter that's killed a swan on Mk angling fb page...
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In reply to Post #177
Actually and this is a bit radical, maybe you have hit the nail on the head by mentioning Farcebook and sh*tter.
Remember the backlash against M+S a few weeks ago about their veggie cauliflower meal.
If anyone has pics of 'bird' predation by otters, get it out there to RSPB, MPs, friends family etc, hopefully but I doubt it that might move things on - shock tactics might work better.
A petition is not the way to go, only a very small minority of anglers will know about it, and indeed the problem certain areas have been affected by will not even bother other anglers , don't forget we on here are carp anglers - mainly - match anglers on commies prob couldn't toss.
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In reply to Post #177
Out of interest, did the petition have to reach a certain number? Ie 10k, 100k etc etc
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In reply to Post #174
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In reply to Post #177
Yep. Agree with that Ken...
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In reply to Post #176
Thank you mate
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| | | Frenzy | | Posts: 11403 | | | [ MODERATOR ] | |
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In reply to Post #177
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Many moons ago I was asked to reword a petition that was couched in a total antagonistic manner. I did so and then launched a revised petition that was worded in much more conciliatory terms than this current one. It fell by the wayside with about 6,000 votes despite being featured on forums, Faceache, ****ter and even the mags. Petitions are NOT the way to go. Dialogue is...
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In reply to Post #174
Spot on .Keep up the good work Joss too topman doing alot behind the scenes and getting results with PAG 
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In reply to Post #174
ok cheers
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In reply to Post #173
you do know Joss is right in everything he has questioned you on right?
Like you have nothing to offer any intelligent debate on this subject, neither does the petition and it will fall before it gets anywhere near 10,000 signatures.
Joss has done more for the fight against otters than 90% of the angling industry, so you're reasons for "not expecting him to be behind it" probably dont exist. just like the weight to the petition doesnt exist.
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In reply to Post #172
cheers
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| | | Frenzy | | Posts: 11403 | | | [ MODERATOR ] | |
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In reply to Post #171
There you go James...crack on and I hope you achieve what you seek
Again, if I understood I'd sign and support, I don't, nor do 99% of those who already have signed
You should apply to NE for a trapping licence? Or maybe lethal control licence...?
Good luck
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In reply to Post #170
I have my reasons, not silly enough to share them on here though
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In reply to Post #167
Think your showing you real self now 😂
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In reply to Post #166
Like i said before, never in a million years did anyone expect you to be on board
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In reply to Post #165
No worries, but that still hasnt answered your question though 
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In reply to Post #164
Well no wonder it will NEVER EVER get any better
I rest my case.
POINTLESS
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In reply to Post #162
Thank you
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In reply to Post #163
I dont really care
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I think the point that frenzy is getting all frenzied about is that the very people you are trying to get to take notice here are absolute experts at picking an argument to pieces and if there is no substance to that argument they will quickly dismiss it. And then probably automatically dismiss any further arguments regardless of their validity.
To present a good case you need clearly laid out, totally valid points.
This needs to backed by strong evidence.
To make the case cast iron workable solutions should also be presented.
Fail to deliver these things and it just looks like a knee jerk rant venting exercise dressed up to look like someone trying to be taken seriously. Which is damaging to the cause that this petition is trying to represent. I think des has tried to use his sheeple for his own ego stroking interests here which is a shame really....
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In reply to Post #157
Ive signed it because i want otter numbers controlled in a non lethal way, quite simple
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In reply to Post #159
Yes me too and it goes right over my head without crying about it...
You didn't answer my questions ?
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In reply to Post #158
I've been called worse
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In reply to Post #156
Oh and I apologise if your offend by me calling you stupid...😉
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In reply to Post #156
What idea?
There isn't an idea 😂😂😂😂😂
Get a grip fella...explain, understand, lobby correctly in a way that will appeal and make a difference.
You want to release otters 20 miles up stream 😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂
Come on fella...it shows lack of intelligence over this...you NEED a plan, you need direction, you need to get it right...if so, you will get far more support, but all your getting is support for a petition that has no meaning...so explain to me..educate me and I may well have a different opinion and actually sign it..
Help me understand it?
Don't panic, ive got the details ...I want you as someone who has signed it explain to me your understanding..not much to ask?
I'll ask you AGAIN base your responses on nYOUR understanding
HOW
WHERE
What is being done with the trapped otter?
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In reply to Post #155
There you go again personal attacks, and again i refer back where i said debates like this really show people what they are really like.
Time and time again i've pointed to you in the direction of their facebook page, but declined to go there, then moan on the UKWOT facebook page about being "hounded" when in reality you are the one doing the hounding.
We will never see eye to eye about this issue, mainly because it probably isn't your idea
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In reply to Post #154
That's because you Fail to understand what the hell you are on about
I said before hand
I WOULD FULLY SUPPORT IF IT HAD A CLEAR DIRECTION
It has NO direction at all...and the fact you can't see that worries me..
I couldn't give a dam about pointless things and trying to rally up suppor for what?
YOU DONT EVEN KNOW WHAT YOUVE SIGNED
The statement from BS even says they haven't got a clue 😂
Oh hang on,..don't they want to trap and release said otter 20 miles up stream 😳
Don't they want to chop off all the males balls 😳
Do me a favour, come back when you actually understand what the hell is being proposed, cause quite frankly, people like you are comical
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In reply to Post #151
Think what you like, others see it differently, as i said way back, i never expected you to be on board with it, so im not particularly bothered about your view
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In reply to Post #152
Oh mate...it beggars belief
I'm sitting here thinking...with people's attitude to this sensitive subject, it's no wonder angling is looked down upon
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In reply to Post #149
The whole petition is clueless ...absolutely clueless...
"We don't know what to do so let's ask someone and we will make ourselves look stupid in the process"
Ive wasted far too much time on this the past few days and it's nothing but pathetic
You lot, don't even know what you've bloody signed it for...tell you what, se d me a signed blanked cheque to me please !,
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In reply to Post #149
Like I said its not up to us to decide its up to the experts, and the people who know, what's wrong with that?
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In reply to Post #148
Beggars belief! the prospect of even counting how many there are is daunting enough and riddled with logistical problems.
But we should be able to capture them all and sterilise them!
Sheesh!
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In reply to Post #145
Its the 21st century, im sure there are ways to stop otters from making more otters, without killing them
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In reply to Post #144
Why not? somebody else gave us the problem
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In reply to Post #143
because we can all think of a way. Name one then?
I can only see 2 non-lethal ways.
1. You keep them in captivity - where? - who's paying for that then?
2. Release them elsewhere - where is elsewhere if they're already bloody everywhere?
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So it's about getting someone else to come up with a solution.... OK......
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In reply to Post #138
Officially no, but then again that's the idea, its to get the people who are paid the money to come up with the ways to do it, putting the ball firmly back into their court, its saying you got us into this mess, now you figure out a way to get us out of it. Clearly at the moment the lethal ways will not work, so what harm is there it ask for non lethal ways to control them? I'm sure if MP's sat down with various experts and bodies, they would easily come up with a couple, i think we can all think of a couple ourselves, and that's why people sign it, because we can all think of a way.
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In reply to Post #141
Surely a body as large as the wildlife Trust wouldn't attempt to mislead the general public with outright lies though?
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In reply to Post #140
Yet 74% of rivers in UK are in a poor state?
And they have been reintroduced...127 originally...and rehab centres have a licence to release a certain amount per year?. So that's not accurate info from wildlife trust
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It was reassuring to read the wildlife trusts fb post earlier categorically stating that absolutely no otters have been reintroduced and that levels have increased due to improving water conditions & increasing fish stocks. Well that's put that myth to rest....
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Nobody’s denying the petition is well intentioned, but the fact is it is utterly, utterly pointless.
Until it reaches 100,000 signatures it is only going to get a polite “Yeah, thanks for that” and a rapid burial.
Even at a 100,000 signatures it will only be considered for debate in parliament.
The likelyhood of 100,000 anglers signing it?
Laughable.
It'll peter out before the 10,000 'ignore me" mark.
What this is, is 6000 anglers saying “somebody do something, we’ve no idea what though - that’s your problem”
It’s a vent of frustration, nothing more.
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In reply to Post #136
Straight up question for you..a simple yes or no
Do you know their intentions for thee humane non lethal excessive they are on about .?
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In reply to Post #135
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In reply to Post #135
No clearer?
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In reply to Post #130
Mods..can I have a bout of touretts please
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In reply to Post #132
Even I can't find that out...BUT...they are more than happy to cull deer, foxes
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In reply to Post #113
so what happens to said otters trapped inside the rspbs large fenced reserves
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In reply to Post #130
The official response from the barbel society. I had to do it in two halves as the text box wouldn't let me do it in one go, and excuse the fact it's abit arse about face
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In reply to Post #129
We also understand the current legal situation but we are primarily river anglers and for us it may be somewhat different.
Bear in mind also that it has taken the Stillwater lobby the best part of twenty years to reach their current position - we cannot and will not wait that long.
How a satisfactory result is achieved is for ‘experts‘ to decide but we would be at that table armed with the knowledge that we have thousands in support, it’s why we need your signatures!
The coming six months are hugely significant, it’s a time when YOU can make a difference.
Sign up, give us that mandate and we will fight hard on your behalf.
The very future of angling is at stake and if that isn’t worth fighting for - for our children and grandchildren - then I don’t know what is.
Steve Pope - Barbel Society Chairman
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In reply to Post #128
Dear Fellow Angler,
I am writing with regard to the petition which was launched yesterday by the Barbel Society .
Let me start by giving a massive thank you to everyone who has signed our petition.
The response in the first twenty four hours has been truly amazing and confirms our belief that this topic really does strike a chord with so many people.
We fully understand the concerns some have raised but let me say first and foremost this petition is all about numbers - the number of people who consider this subject to be among those right at the top of the Angling Agenda and who want to add their weight to that cause.
We acknowledge the fact that the wording of the petition may be somewhat vague but please bear in mind there is a limit to what can be said. We needed to grab attention and be all inclusive and it’s fair to say the initial response has justified our decision.
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In reply to Post #127
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In reply to Post #119
Hear, bloody hear
It's an emotive subject but we (as anglers) need to keep our message clear, accurate and factual. We don't need various groups of anglers attempting to fight it as individuals we need to combine efforts and resources. Our voice will be louder and can't be ignored.
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In reply to Post #125
Or most lakes, canals, meres, reservoirs etc.
I’m not going to fish in a bloody zoo, behind bars, I can assure you.
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In reply to Post #123
Exactly we can't fence rivers.
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In reply to Post #122
There is an official response from the barbel society on their facebook page if anyone is interested.
It's too long to type, and I can't figure out a way to copy and paste off my phone
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In reply to Post #121
We have no chance of raising sufficient money for fencing. Funds would be wiped out by just a handful of lakes. I’m afraid that it is the political campaign that needs funding.
Social media is Crazy today regarding otters. I sense a sea change. I sense that many are not going to accept the current plight.
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In reply to Post #121
Exactly
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In reply to Post #120
don't think the use of any donations should be spent on the political fight tbh. It would be wasted unless there was millions available.
Much better to spend it on fencing...but then you have the debate on where and why and that some will see no benefit, etc.
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In reply to Post #117
Donations also need a clear goal mate...I recently said the same...every angler donate to a cause to help...we need to define what help as we will no doubt have serious debates about where it should be spent.
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In reply to Post #114
We find a common ground Mr Barbel at last.
I'm 110% in support of raising the profile of the damage cause by otters...BUT..it has to be done correctly, factually, non confrontaionaly ..or we will NEVER be listened too..
If it wasn't for the the efforts of the UKWOT, the trapping licence wouldnt have ever happened..FACT
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Would most definitely donate for the cause, if it helped those in need!
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In reply to Post #115
I've donated to the PAG recently, I also used to be a payed up member of the Angling Trust I have also paid into the carp society for a good many years I like to think my small donations were making a difference but 40'000 grand wouldn't go very far based on your numbers.
I would without question pay an extra 10 or 20 pounds a year on my rod licences if the money was distributed at non profit to help fence course fisheries or restock them rather than get gobbled up into reintroduction of Salmon fry or runs and spawning grounds of which is no direct benefit to my angling they can distribute that monies from the 82 pound salmon license money shouldn't be to difficult to work out.
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In reply to Post #115
I very much doubt you will get many people donating £10 to the PAG, years ago on other forums, maybe on here too, there was much heated debate about Angling Trust membership.
It amused me that most of the moaners didn't bat an eye on spending hundreds / thousands on fishing gear but were not prepared to fork out £25 a year for AT membership at the time.
Just for info I think the RSPB annual income is around the £100M mark, puts it in perspective really.
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In reply to Post #1
I have been following all these threads with a lot of interest, it seems to me the only "in roads" to this problem of predation is political and we need organisations like the PAG to fight for us! but they need funds imagine if all 4000 of those signatures had donated say £10 to the cause we are all so highly strung about! It would make a massive impact and wouldnt break any of our banks! Voicing our concerns is great but we need it taking further than on here and donating is the only way to do it!
Get donating!
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In reply to Post #112
I agree, the chances of this actually going anywhere is slim, but what is has done is to voice the massive concern anglers and lake owners have regarding otters. I suspect this is just the start, and no doubt in the coming years there will be more stuff like this, the issue will never go away without some form of intervention.
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In reply to Post #112
I agree mate
Otter counts can be done at the cost of millions...plus they don't really want us to know numbers as that would be a bigger case for a judicial review ...of which would cost thousands of pounds to even get tread in court.
RSPB etc won't address it publically as they are a huge money driven organisation that will play of fluffy things. They just put up huge fences instead!
For the record ...I personally believe otters are far too over protected...! And we are in need of more up to date information on the damage they cause to the environment...and I'm not just talking fishing...fact is today, they are in every county of England, they are seen regually in towns and villages...road kills are well up on previous years and Cardiff have such a back log of dead otters to test for cause of death, it will take the a year to get through them
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In reply to Post #110
Yeah I know about the cormorants, but the licenses are pitiful. Local club counted 80 around the site in a space of two days. I believe 30+ at one time. annual license of 3 per year. Might as well not bother.
I signed it, but I do know it will go nowhere because it's a waste of space on a webpage. But I know the real situation is that without actual population numbers the lethal control is unlikely to occur, and you cant really count otter numbers at all for various reasons. We are years off the right research being conducted to show the devastation to the entire ecosystem. We are also a long way off all the organisations with actual political clout coming together for once and putting aside differences to tackle the issue.
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In reply to Post #109
No...farmers rights will NEVER be applied...FACT
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In reply to Post #108
Shooting of cormorants is also under licence via the angling trust mate
No, I don't think that anyone has applied for lethal control of a protected species.
But if no one tries, then we will never find out.
What I'm trying to put across is the amount of ill informed people there are signing a petition that provides you with zero information...
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In reply to Post #107
I had read that there was something tabled for farmers rights so to speak but not that there was an application for lethal control in process, it will never see the light of day.
My very good friend is a manager at WWT Slimbridge, he could have done with an application for lethal control many years ago, and on their home page their is an otter for the ticket section not that that was his idea, he is a very capable carp angler for whom predation effects both social and work activities.
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In reply to Post #107
Joss do you know if anyone has even attempted to go down this route by taking it to court?
Surely as it is now a precedent this called be used not only for otters, but cormorants. Just suppose you have to have the money to build your case and take it to court. Most fisheries & clubs wont have the resource, but easily winnable obviously.
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In reply to Post #106
No probs mate
On a slight tangent
Did you realise that the IS an application for LETHAL CONTROL available today?
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In reply to Post #105
It will be interesting to know the figures Joss.
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In reply to Post #104
I will get the most accurate info for you later today and will post later on tonight..I have last months figures, but I'd rather be bang up to date with any info I provide if that's ok with you mate
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I agree it is an ill structured petition most definitely written from frustration that will not be given the light of day, but I also feel the frustration given to anything like this is what is at the forefront of any like minded angler who would rush to sign it, although I haven't
I feel a lot of this frustration is born from being ill informed or not being kept in the loop of the latest things being tabled in discussions that anglers are not privy to, or the outcomes of such discussions yet groups who are working for backing and support treat it as almost a secret society, yes were informed meetings are happening but not necessarily the outcomes or what is being tabled, for people to back such groups they like to know what their getting for their donations, which I feel is why a lot of these groups loose momentum or peoples interest.
I'm not knocking anyone and appreciate the effort that many others as well as Joss have put in and allotted so much of their time to the otter problem faced by all of the angling community, but and it is my only but I do feel more could be said/released for general consumption for anglers to digest.
If you take a look at the PAG Facebook page or website other than Tim's posts over the last twelve months as to what has been happening there is not a great deal of anything else being posted and with Tim having stepped out of the limelight who else is going to keep this up to date I feel it will fall by the wayside as my interest into looking at it has already subsided.
Natural angling is fooked, if you want anything other than a fenced fishery which for me takes away the essence of being in the countryside it feels more like Colditz.
Out of interest and I hope Joss will answer the question if he sees it, how many otters within a fenced fishery have been trapped and released since its introduction mainly as a gauge for those whom believe a fenced fishery is the only solution for sanctuary, is the number so minute in relation to its need.
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In reply to Post #102
RSPB have just quietly fenced some of their reserves...
Even with their power as an organisation I think they are worried about the backlash from the general public. I cant talk round my colleagues in the office no matter how much evidence I show them!
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Whatever the outcome of this petition, at least the people that started it, are actually doing something, albeit not in the best way possible but, they are doing something, because they care.
I can’t understand why anybody that’s concerned about birds and water fowl aren’t putting something together? Probably hoping somebody else will, we’re all guilty of that at times.
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In reply to Post #99
I've been talking to someone who supposed was involved in it. He told me that the intention of the petition was to pass the problem back on to the EA as they're responsible for it. I asked where in the petition it mentioned need this & he couldn't answer.
It's weak, hollow & amateurish. Obviously the intentions are good but it's so poorly thought. Imagine it getting to parliament...
So what do they want?
Non-lethal means to control otters
Don't they already have that?
Yes
OK, moving on...
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In reply to Post #98
Surely this isnt literally it? I thought I must be missing a link to the proper document but can’t seem to find anything else. All that’s there is a generic opening paragraph that says absolutely nothing. Nice idea with good intentions but I’m in agreement with the doubters... it’s terrirbly presented.
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In reply to Post #97
Can't see anything, can you tag me in?
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In reply to Post #95
No, not seen it. I'll have a look. Is it on his own page or the PAG page?
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In reply to Post #89
You'll not get any answers Joss as I'm sure those who set this petition up haven't got a clue. It's well meaning but there's no real content. If they want it debated then there needs to be something to debate and nothing has been provided.
We all know that the lethal option is off the table but I'm not sure that folk really know what is meant by non-lethal. Ok, let's assume it's debated and all fishery owners are given licences to trap otters. What happens to an unfenced water? You've got an otter in a trap, now what? Relocate it to Ben Nevis?
Like I said, the intention is good but there's no meat on the bones, it's a hollow petition. The PAG have made excellent ground and I'm sure there's lots going on behind the scenes that us mere mortals aren't aware of. Things like this won't derail your efforts but equally I don't think they're helping in any way.
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In reply to Post #92
Horse and water spring to mind. Hey ho, everyone is different I suppose
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In reply to Post #90
Good night James
I have no further questions as you can't answer them 😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂
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In reply to Post #84
Nail on head.
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In reply to Post #88
I know exactly what I've signed, as have thousands of others.
Of course I knew that was coming, nice to know where people stand, debates like this brings out what people are really like, give my regards to Dave, although as predicted you've already spoke to him about me.
I'll let the barbel society know that a request is imminent from yourself as you have a few questions.
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In reply to Post #88
Sorry James...I forgot...
Ive not moaned, ive asked questions...
Be lucky not many barbel left round our way now on the Ouse...few in upper nene cropping up I hear 😉
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In reply to Post #87
So you STILL don't know what youve actually signed 😳😳
Anyway, ive enjoyed our little debate...always find it amusing with uneducated people...(you knew that was coming as you can read me so well 😂
It makes no odds, to me at all, just found the whole petition rather confusing
Be lucky James, don't be to harsh on Dave Webb, he's done far more to raise this issue than anyone in the non angling fraternity...you may well do,well to remember that one...mind you, top marks for signing a petition 😜
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In reply to Post #85
I clearly can't give you the answer you crave, but what I have done is to point you in the direction of the people who can, they are a friendly bunch, and I'm sure they can help. Now it's entirely up to you, either ask the ones who know, or moan on carp forum.
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In reply to Post #84
Very well put 👍
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In reply to Post #83
😂😂😂😂 and you said you could read me like a book....😂😂😂😂 far too easy you are James
There is No one way....one will find his/her path...that's fine...but don't expect not to find the odd cross road 😜
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It's a pile of rubbish that will go nowhere. Due to reasons stated, it has no substance to it.
Personally I still signed it though, maybe a bit hastily, but let's be honest. Until the otter population is even attempted to be counted no lethal means will be introduced. One crappy petition won't solve nothing but it may get them thinking that xxxx number of people actually have a concern about the issue.
If this petition can get the amount of interest being poor quality, imagine what a properly researched and evidenced petition could do. Not just fish, extended to birds, mammals, amphibians, etc. Show the devastation of all biodiversity and then you'll have something that cannot be ignored by even the most ignorant human.
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In reply to Post #82
Point proven, your way or the highway
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In reply to Post #80
No I'm bring serious now
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In reply to Post #79
Well i am and I'll answer a direct question of I can..
I dislike people when have other intentions ...answer the question..Or say you can't,,,or grow up ..simples
Ive bent over backward for angling re this subject and suffered first hand...I know what goes on behind the scenes and I know what's being worked on for the good..I dislike pple who refuse to work with others and I dis like lack of communication ..
James likes to cause a row...I'm well up on that...I'm not here to row, I asked simple questions...he knows the answers....yet fails to inform the forum readers ...shame really
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In reply to Post #79
I'd like to think most of it is tongue in cheek, well I hope it is anyway
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In reply to Post #78
Come on now lads! You’re actually on the same side you know.
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In reply to Post #77
I doubt that very much James, you have to work it out fella, something you won't be able to do with me 😜
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In reply to Post #74
Can read you like a book
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In reply to Post #75
Well at least I know now you've not a clue what you've signed ...fair one, you choice as its mine to question the petition in the first place. It's a shame you've not bothered to try and help me in my lack of knowledge behind the petition, but hey ho.
Just think. If we all knew what a great petition it is, we could have advertised it and government would be reading it tomorrow morning ...I call it working as One 😜
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In reply to Post #73
Again I haven't claimed that I've tried to educate, in fact I have stated that everyone has a choice, and an opinion.
I have stated to you more than once if you have any questions pop along to the society page and I'm sure they will answer them.
There is no right or wrong answer, unless it's not the answer you desire, then unfortunately there is nothing I can say that will help.
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| | | Frenzy | | Posts: 11403 | | | [ MODERATOR ] | |
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In reply to Post #73
Oh James...don't put your frustrations onto me cause you've had rows with Dave Webb 😂😂
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| | | Frenzy | | Posts: 11403 | | | [ MODERATOR ] | |
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In reply to Post #72
Oh James...I was hoping we could find a common ground and find out what you understood behind the petition that isn't clear at all...it appears you have not wished to educate me....so much for anglers pulling together...😜
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In reply to Post #69
But if you want answers you can't moan on here that no one is giving you them, most people would go and seek them?
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| | | Frenzy | | Posts: 11403 | | | [ MODERATOR ] | |
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In reply to Post #70
I have no quest...
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In reply to Post #67
I give up, good luck on your quest but fear it will fail unless the cause is expanded to include non anglers.
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| | | Frenzy | | Posts: 11403 | | | [ MODERATOR ] | |
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In reply to Post #68
Not my style mate...either do it directly or don't,ma bit like answer questions if you know the answers...if you don't...dodge them 😜😜😜😜😜😜
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In reply to Post #64
I'm sure you're savvy enough to try and add yourself to the facebook page
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| | | Frenzy | | Posts: 11403 | | | [ MODERATOR ] | |
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In reply to Post #65
Rspb more concerned about domestic cats and use the otter as a bill board to attract funds
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| | | Frenzy | | Posts: 11403 | | | [ MODERATOR ] | |
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In reply to Post #65
Poxy Ipad 😄
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Here is a thought I am sure have said before, forget about the damage otters damaging fish stocks WE all know that and as anglers we can persuade fishery owners where possible to to protect their waters.
Why not concentrate the efforts now on how otters are damaging bird life and get that out on social media etc, sure some of you guys can provide evidence of this, I sadly think this is the ONLY way the general public will actually care about the damage they can and will do.
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| | | Frenzy | | Posts: 11403 | | | [ MODERATOR ] | |
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In reply to Post #63
Then as this is an open forum, maybe you would be so kind as to answer my questions posed previously...if the petition actually has a decent explanation then I may well also sign ..
I only seek answers and I'm not on the barbel page nor a friend of Laurence
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In reply to Post #53
I know exactly what I am signing, I'm signing a petition written by a group of people who feel passionately about the sport, they are not lawyers, nor do they get paid, like most Ive read the petition, but I also engage in discussions on their facebook page, where I have understood where it has come from.
The way I see it is that the anglers ask the powers that be the questions, it's up to them to decide how to act if it ever comes to fruition
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| | | Frenzy | | Posts: 11403 | | | [ MODERATOR ] | |
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In reply to Post #61
Agree...so,we need to at least try and address our concerns correctly.
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In reply to Post #60
but realisticly unfenced waters and rivers will be rinsed
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| | | Frenzy | | Posts: 11403 | | | [ MODERATOR ] | |
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In reply to Post #59
It's becoming a very popular discussion these days..and it will grow more
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In reply to Post #55
this has been discussed for years the only changes are less fish and water birds and more otters.no fence no fish or bird life
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| | | Frenzy | | Posts: 11403 | | | [ MODERATOR ] | |
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In reply to Post #55
I'd support it more if it actually said non leathal at least it's got an end to it 😄
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I signed it, i thought i was being helpful.
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| | | Frenzy | | Posts: 11403 | | | [ MODERATOR ] | |
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In reply to Post #54
Much the same here, not the 50years bit ..I jest...
Ive had my own lake smashed by otters, so don't think I dnt know how it feels...
Your right...anglers won't achieve anything on their own...hence why poorly written petitojn don't help...do them by all means, fully support a good one...but come on...non lethal control with no explanation and ifread by government..IF they get 10,000 signatures .😂😂😂😂😂
It,will be chucked in the bin and laughed at
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In reply to Post #53
I’m with Frenzy on this. I will sign the petition,but only due to my rage over the otter situation. I would sign anything if I thought that it might help in any remote way. It is not, however, well worded and is utterly meaningless. There is no way to control numbers by non lethal methods. Lethal methods or at least a massive clampdown on the illegal releasing would be a positive first step.
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In reply to Post #44
I have been an angler for 50 years mate.
I have seen otter damage in Norfolk in the late 80's and seen carp torn to bits on the bank first hand.
Anglers WON'T make it change and I guess you actually know that, they would not join the Angling trust our only organisation that had years ago a chance to raise the issue with any real force.
As said before, don't keep having a go at some of us who are just being realistic.
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| | | Frenzy | | Posts: 11403 | | | [ MODERATOR ] | |
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In reply to Post #52
Take it back a notch...
What did you understand regarding the petition? Do you know what you have signed...have you got the details required or did you just sign it regardless?
Fair questions?
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In reply to Post #51
I haven't got all the answers, and I never said I did, I didn't even start the thread, all I'm doing is showing my support for it. The only thing I have basically said is that it's not pointless and that you wouldn't like it.
Like I said before you know where it originated from, I'm sure there are people there that'll give you the answers you require, or at least you will understand why it was started
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| | | Frenzy | | Posts: 11403 | | | [ MODERATOR ] | |
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In reply to Post #50
Iam not insulting anyone...I'm merely asking questions that aren't being answered...its an open forum andmi posed some simple questions...ive also stated that I have no issue with any petition if they are correctly out and out angling in a good light...the fact it's not being answered speaks volumes
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In reply to Post #49
Everyone has a choice, everyone has an opinion, no one is forcing anyone to sign it, what's more worrying is that you are insinuating people's intelligence on this issue.
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| | | Frenzy | | Posts: 11403 | | | [ MODERATOR ] | |
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In reply to Post #48
I was asking you?
No one else has bothered to respond ?
Is that cause they don't know the answers..? Strange if they've signed it really. Don't you think?
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In reply to Post #46
You know where the petition originated from, maybe ask the questions there
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| | | Frenzy | | Posts: 11403 | | | [ MODERATOR ] | |
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In reply to Post #45
Tongue in cheek mate...you'll get used to it
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| | | Frenzy | | Posts: 11403 | | | [ MODERATOR ] | |
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In reply to Post #42
Mr barbel itmkakes NO odds to me what so ever if one chooses a different direction...that doesn't mean I can't ask questions...the fact you can't even answer the basic of them begs yet another question...!
So,moto enable,me to understand the point of the petition ..please would you mind educating me
Where is the non lethal control taking place...?
What is being used as a method for non lethal control
Once caught..what is intended and where is the animal being released?
Not exactly damaging questions you might agree?
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In reply to Post #44
Just proved my point
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| | | Frenzy | | Posts: 11403 | | | [ MODERATOR ] | |
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In reply to Post #41
Well. I was sort of hoping that anglers, if they made the effort can make a change...just like mark and I have with the otter world and natural england...but, I guess your right...wasting my time with people who have no understanding of the larger impact of what we do as anglers to bond with non anglers...sod it...lets trap and kill everything..I'll do a petition that will sort em out 
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In reply to Post #41
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In reply to Post #40
Why? Because people have decided to go a different way than the way you want it to go.
Grey carper has already perfectly answered your question below
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In reply to Post #37
Simple really....
We all know on here and other fishing forums and anglers in general about otters, but if you are really serious about the problem and I know you are, and wandle1, you have have to move on from anglers to make the general public aware, if they actually care about fish.
Seriously , this otter debate is just going nowhere now if restricted fishing forums.
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| | | Frenzy | | Posts: 11403 | | | [ MODERATOR ] | |
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In reply to Post #39
Why?
And thats not what I asked...
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In reply to Post #38
I fully expected you not to like it
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| | | Frenzy | | Posts: 11403 | | | [ MODERATOR ] | |
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In reply to Post #35
Mr Barbel...please explain to me the good points of such a poorly written petition?Mive given you a few bad points...I'm amazed at how anyone can think it's good?
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| | | Frenzy | | Posts: 11403 | | | [ MODERATOR ] | |
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In reply to Post #36
Not sure I unsstand the I should move out of the angling zone bit
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In reply to Post #32
Well maybe, with respect, you should move out of the angling zone with this issue , as I have said we all know the damage they do and keep repeating the same old things on here is never going to change things, if it ever can be?
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In reply to Post #32
Not pointless at all, this is just the start, people have had enough
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| | | Frenzy | | Posts: 11403 | | | [ MODERATOR ] | |
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In reply to Post #33
That's actually very good
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In reply to Post #29
The problem was caused by bunch of well-intentioned but extremely ill-informed idiots.
It's not going to be solved by another bunch!
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| | | Frenzy | | Posts: 11403 | | | [ MODERATOR ] | |
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In reply to Post #30
I'm not arguing the fact of exposure and the damage otters cause, it's a good thing.
ive fought this for too long and spent countless hours studying otters, and their effects on fish stocks...including my own...what I do have a issue with is how stupid anglers can look from the outside by pointless poorly written petitions that get laughed at by the very people we need to make our point too...
One needs a case study, needs to say exactly their intentions..and trapping an otter in an un fenced water is ...well....comical...it shows the lack of knowledge towards the animal...pointless..
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In reply to Post #1
I'd urge anyone who feels deeply about the otter situation to sign the petition
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In reply to Post #27
With respect mate, if you want to get your message out to the general public, all of us on here now know the damage they cause so don't need to be constantly reminded.
I guess you are on FB, Twitter etc etc, get a list of MP's, then get Wandle 1 to give you some pics of otter damage to fish and post on their accounts, then do the same to RSPB members and anyone else not connected to angling you can think of.
At least the bloke starting the petition has made an effort to get it out to be debated in somewhere away from the fishing community, that can't be a bad thing can it??
Tight lines
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| | | Frenzy | | Posts: 11403 | | | [ MODERATOR ] | |
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In reply to Post #28
I have NO objection to petitions if they are clear...I have serious issues with badly written ones that make anhlglers look stupid and that petition hasn't been thought through at all...
Write all the testimony you want..until they are factual and give the correct instructional adivce and guidance then they are laughed at by wildlife groups...thick as ***** anglers...that's exaxtly what they will think when they read that
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In reply to Post #26
I understand totally what you mean...
I think or feel that in the world of angling there is a sense of frustration and anger,there is too much talking,some may feel and not enough doing...,I don't know..
I think they'll be more petitions' from people who are fed up and angry about the situation,..
What is gong on ,on facebook?...this is the only medium I visit regularly...
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| | | Frenzy | | Posts: 11403 | | | [ MODERATOR ] | |
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In reply to Post #24
It's NOT bitching, it's asking for clarification, of which that petition is a not clear, no direction and people will sign it cause they think its summut the have to do...well instead of signing poor petitions, get your fishery to apply for a individual licence...if fenced...if not, go and educate yourselves about otter behaviour...removing an otter from a un fenced water achieves ZERO
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| | | Frenzy | | Posts: 11403 | | | [ MODERATOR ] | |
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In reply to Post #22
Trust me mate,,,it has NOTHING to do with any work I or anyone else has done...its just I didn't understand IT.
Remove a otter from an un fenced water and what happens...oh...they return....remove an otter to where exactly...? That's what I dont understand,,.the simple fact that it hasn't been thought through...its NOT an attack on anyone...if things go ahead for the good of angling, then I'll back it 110%..if not. I will question it
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In reply to Post #24
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Here is the full info, guess you have all seen it by now though:
For the introduction of non-lethal means of control of the Otter (Lutra- lutra)
Since its assisted re-introduction to the freshwater waterways of the UK, the otter has reached levels of increased population on lakes, canals and rivers where its presence has become a detriment to the riverine environment affecting most fish species and birds and mammals.
More details
Evidence shows with some certain fish species, their populations have been reduced dramatically to the point of collapse, the rivers Kennet, Great Ouse, Teme, Bristol Avon, Cherwell, Dorset Stour and Thames are good examples of the otters effect on the local environment of these rivers. Many commercial fisheries and fish farms are regularly invaded by the otter with the negative effect of costly indiscriminate fish kills, many fisheries are now ring fenced to keep this predator at bay.
Created by
Lawrence Breakspear
I believe he is / was a barbel angler
Rather than bitching between each other on here which with respect is 'only' a carp fishing forum, I think anything that gets this out to the wider public is a good idea, but we have to remember that to 90% of the population a fish is just a fish as most of my non angling friends have said when I bring this up.
Hate to say it but unless an organisation like the RSPB starts getting involved when bird stocks are affected, they really do have the resources and the clout to make the public aware, the otter problem for anglers will be ignored.
Bit of a bleak view, no pun intended, but just being honest.
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In reply to Post #10
I read it before I signed it mate,however you raise a very valid point,one which is not mentioned in the link or info,what are they going to do with them once captured?
Euthanized?
Put in permanent captivity ?
Sent back to the Isle of Skye?
To be honest anything heading towards the Government gaze has got to be looked at ,I feel things are moving far too slowly..
I have to say though,I could have worded it better on a postage stamp..as you could have too..
Don't worry mate,this wont undo your work,the more recognition the problem gets the better..
My local mp,Scott Mann,conservative is a carp angler...before this he was a postie...!..edit,I have just emailed him
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| | | Frenzy | | Posts: 11403 | | | [ MODERATOR ] | |
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In reply to Post #13
Answers on a postcard please
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| | | Frenzy | | Posts: 11403 | | | [ MODERATOR ] | |
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In reply to Post #17
Make no odds to what has been already achieved...especially as it doesn't explain in anyway shape or form of the intention
That's the bit I'm struggling with
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| | | Frenzy | | Posts: 11403 | | | [ MODERATOR ] | |
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In reply to Post #15
I'm NOT attacking anyone...I'm merely asking questions that most stupid people won't cause they have zero knowledge of this extremely complicated subject and poorly wrote petitions make angling look pathetic...
SO...I'll ask again.
What is non lethal?
What is done with the animal once captured?
What type of waters is this intended for?
The are already 2 types of non lethal licences available.
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In reply to Post #12
I dont know mate just hope it does not undo all the hard work you have already put in mate
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| | | Frenzy | | Posts: 11403 | | | [ MODERATOR ] | |
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In reply to Post #13
Didn't say I didn't like it...I said I dontunderstand it...don't be ignorant and sign it for signing sake
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In reply to Post #6
Don't like it don't sign it
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| | | Frenzy | | Posts: 11403 | | | [ MODERATOR ] | |
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In reply to Post #11
How?
Where?
What happens once caught?
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In reply to Post #8
To control lutra lutra in a non lethal way isnt it joss
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| | | Frenzy | | Posts: 11403 | | | [ MODERATOR ] | |
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In reply to Post #9
wandle...you know the crack...what you actually signed?
What's the intention
How, what they going to do once non lethally captured?
I'm baffled?
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In reply to Post #3
Done,cheers
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| | | Frenzy | | Posts: 11403 | | | [ MODERATOR ] | |
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In reply to Post #7
So...what have you signed...what do you understand about the petition?
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In reply to Post #1
Email signed
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| | | Frenzy | | Posts: 11403 | | | [ MODERATOR ] | |
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In reply to Post #5
Can someone explain to me the intention behind this petition, cause ive been having a debate on FB over this and I'm competly lost over it
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In reply to Post #4
Nicely done mate
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In reply to Post #3
I added it in the Otter thread as well but thought it needed its own thread. Thanks for the link
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In reply to Post #1
I'll sign it....
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Found this on another angling forum. There’s a hell of a lot of signatures needed but we have to start somewhere although it probably won’t make the slightest difference.
https://petition.parliament.uk/petitions/209735
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General Carp Discussion