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 New Posts  Otters and the real damage
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Frenzy
Posts: 11390
Frenzy
[ MODERATOR ]
   Old Thread  #81 20 Jan 2014 at 8.52pm    Login    Register
In reply to Post #80
sorry chaps....ive been rather bogged down of late with business, life and all the normal stuff that surrounds us....

I will get to your pms soon and YES Wandle...thank you
wandle1
Posts: 6989
wandle1
   Old Thread  #80 20 Jan 2014 at 4.10pm    Login    Register
In reply to Post #54
Hello mate i pm`d you for your email addy ,as i also wish to contribute to this topic in a pictorial fashion ,as you may know this is a topic i am familiar with ,but not heard back from you...??

cheers Adam
lucipetrescu
Posts: 16
   Old Thread  #79 20 Jan 2014 at 12.56pm    Login    Register
In reply to Post #78
I can't sign it as I'm not from UK.
But i think the only way is the low suite.

P.S I see some very good business opportunities for fenced fisheries in the future but for those who used to fish in natural water especially for wild carp will be just a walk in nature
captainqpr
Posts: 2695
captainqpr
   Old Thread  #78 20 Jan 2014 at 11.29am    Login    Register
Has everyone on this forum signed this e-petition , i looked this morning and its only got 900 odd signatures , which is pathetic given this is the single biggest threat to our sport at the moment.

http://epetitions.direct.gov.uk/petitions/44656

Please take 5 minutes to sign this..


edit : Sorry if this is the wrong thread , Mods do you think this should be in a new thread , closing date is tomorrow 10.00 am i believe.
lucipetrescu
Posts: 16
   Old Thread  #77 20 Jan 2014 at 11.10am    Login    Register
For those who read my last posts and got scared of the things I wrote please try to find out if my worries are real before scaring other people as E. A. can prosecute you for scaring other people of presence of otters.
So before sharing your worries with other people or in newspapers you can ask EA to comfort you here:
http://www.environment-agency.gov.uk/contactus/feedback.aspx
It won't take long. You can just write: I've read something on a public forum that makes me very worry about our ecosystem .. and just copy paste what I wrote or express yours worries.
If they don't give you the answers to comfort you than you must share your worries with others (If I were you I will ask for Secretary of State for Environment honor resignation ) especially with a agencies for wetland protections.

I don't have a clue about how things goes in UK so it is your fight. Still I can't help myself stop writing as I just saw what EA published here: http://www.environment-agency.gov.uk/business/sectors/39873.aspx

"What should I do?
..If otters are thought to be the culprit, there are several measures that could be taken, for example fencing and developing a small decoy pond close to the river or stream, stocked with low value fish and with easy access for otters . Variations in site conditions and the behaviour of individual otters mean there are no 'hard and fast' rules. Permanent fencing is an option which is known to work."
It is a STUPID recommendation . If you don't trust the lunatic (me) trust them:
http://www.latrobe.edu.au/news/articles/2013/opinion/should-we-feed-starving-polar-bears
http://www.polarbearsinternational.org/about-polar-bears/what-scientists-say/can-we-help-polar-bears-supplemental-feeding
.. and number of polar bear are declining

While writing all this my uncle's saying keeps coming in my mind "The dog dies because of long road and the fool from someone else worries "
lucipetrescu
Posts: 16
   Old Thread  #76 19 Jan 2014 at 1.42pm    Login    Register
......(did't fit in one post lol)..Unfortunately I think only countrys in witch their fur is still expensive will accept them ... and if it is possible just their fur. Or maybe just put them on a big boat and send them to Australia to finish what humans, cats and rats didn't already succeeded.(last sentence was only a naughty joke, take it as a joke). ....



The otters are responsible beings. They chase their own offspring from the fishinground if the fishingground can't suport them. Human aren't. I am very sure that if the otters were really ugly not a pound woud be spent on them. I am very sure that the EA knows better than us the real danger but as they used public founds for breeding and if they do admit now that a massive overpopulation of otters are able to destroy entire ecosystems and that till "natural balance" is back may pass a lifetimes than some heads must fall at the highest level, and nobody wants to be in public shame. But sooner the danger is admitted sooner actions plans for preventing a ecological disaster. Things move very slow in E.U. due to paperwork so action plans in case of disaster should be prepared and accepted before the disaster come. Nature can hit back sometimes with incredible violence.

The "natural balance" as EU is seeing right now it is not the natural balance in witch otters and humans lived together since first human and otter encounter and both species survived together. During thousands of years of living together humans always chased otters for their fur, used fishingtraps in witch otters sometimes got caught, chased the otter for lowering fish stock. Otter survived even the guns, modern traps. We successfully exterminated them just recently without intention by poisoning the waters. The poison in the waters now are of course much lower than used to be 20-30 years ago. So why all this unnecessary measure of protection since the extinction factor was removed... Endangered and fragile wetlands ecosystems are now small and vulnerable and I don't think they can handle without major casualties the fluctuations between predator and pray till a "natural balance" is installed .... a "natural balance" that never existed since humans and otter lived together.

Please don't take this ideas as scientific documented.... I am just a lunatic who spent last 3 years in paternity leave and watch wildlife programs on TV while children felt asleep as I couldn't go fishing. Though, in some cultures the lunatics are respected as they say gods reveals future through the words of the lunatics..
lucipetrescu
Posts: 16
   Old Thread  #75 19 Jan 2014 at 1.38pm    Login    Register
Hello again. I promise this will be my last long post on this topic.
Just couldn't sleep last night thinking at all kind of apocalyptic scenarios so today after my kids felt asleep drove home in the middle of the night to write. Just keep seeing in my mind hungry otters chasing pigeons in town squares, injured and sick young dying otters wondering on land in hope of finding something to eat or a place to die... and then of course the rivers empty of fish will run red again as they will be regarded as pests . Please read the Post #32 from Old time angling pt.2. I agree with Mr. Pete Pemberton.
Of course by that time (praying that time won't come) all wetland already endangered fauna destroyed in parts where otters over-breed.
(It's been 4 hours since i start writing this, meantime i was googling for information, I have so many things I want to write but I'm tired and maybe become rambling )
There are NOT otters fault. People shouldn't feed wildlife because even a single person constantly feeding wildlife can create natural unbalance. Just Copy paste something from http://www.paws.org/feeding-wildlife.html
"Reproduction rates may also be affected when an artificial food source is readily available. In the wild, the number of animals being born is often directly related to the amount of natural food available. The number of animals surviving will also depend on how much food is available. This is nature's way of keeping a balance. When an unnatural food supply becomes available, animals may produce more young and soon there may be more animals living in the area than what the natural food sources can support".

But that's what EA and other wildlife organizations did that purposely or unpurposely on a huge scale through:

1 Allowing the otters to feed and breed in fisheries with human rised fish
2 Lots of human raised otters relished in wild
3. Not taking in consideration that fish stocks in natural fresh water are in some cases maybe ten times higher as woud have been if otters were already there. So they keep over-breed happy in the natural fresh water tolerating each other (What a joy to see from bridges otters playing and jumping like dolphins , children will be very happy! and so will be those happy fulls who are suppose to protect wildlife ).
4. Every new predator (and otter is new for the actual fish stock) has huge advantage on unaware fish. For example a fish witch was chased from otters since it was a minnow and escape has better strategies of escaping from otters and will react differently when it feels the otter is around.

Fast overbreeding comes along with inbreeding. .....

In normal condition the otters knows that they need in a small river huge amounts of space and that's why they fight to the death to protect the territory. Every fisherman knows and so does the otter well established in one place that there are periods when fish can be caught easy an periods when fish are difficult to be caught, that there are good years and bad years. Human can store food, otter can't so the otter will defend a huge territory so it can feed on bad periods, bad years. The otters bred in fisheries and abnormal rich natural water does not know that bad years can come. When the bad year come first time that will be the problem.
Hundreds of hungry otters roaming and searching for food in a small river as well as associated tributary streams, ditches, ponds, lakes, woodland can destroy 90% to 100% of the population of fish able to breed as well as the endangered wetlands animals such as Water Vole if any present. (It is quite hard to rise money for saving Water Vole. Otters are more charismatic for the public and are at great fashion right now) An establish strong otter can't fight for it's territory with tens or hundreds of intruders coming at once so it will go with the heard.The lucky ones will get to the sea shore or in a bigger river leaving behind an unsustainable river for an otter and a lot of injured, sick and hungry otters witch will kill everything they can till they die, including pigeons in towns squares if they get there, even the swans from park lakes won't be safe .
Of course this will not happened as you have RSPCA witch will take the wondering otters, feed them, cure them and than what?! Putting them back they will starve again and get injured again or even worst
those recovered losers otters will be able to kill or injured a strong otter witch is hungry and weak and had an established territory but can't defend it of well fed looser otters the RSPCA put back. Human intervention it isn't good.
It is a paradox here
The EA says:
"Lifespan
Most otters live for three to four years in the wild, although they can live longer. Mortality is high among young animals looking to establish their own territories,
particularly in areas with well established populatio
Frenzy
Posts: 11390
Frenzy
[ MODERATOR ]
   Old Thread  #74 17 Jan 2014 at 5.03pm    Login    Register
In reply to Post #73
lucipetrescu
Posts: 16
   Old Thread  #73 17 Jan 2014 at 4.50pm    Login    Register
In reply to Post #72
No problem Frenzy. Apologies accepted.
Frenzy
Posts: 11390
Frenzy
[ MODERATOR ]
   Old Thread  #72 17 Jan 2014 at 4.23pm    Login    Register
In reply to Post #69
i was being flippant...i apologise
Defiant.one
Posts: 4310
Defiant.one
   Old Thread  #71 17 Jan 2014 at 8.56am    Login    Register
In reply to Post #67
Your first worry should be as the people who are paid to handle the situation are incompetent.

Now if someone from Romania can see this, why is it most in the UK can't???

One guy said to me the other day " The EA should be Prosecuted for wasting Taxpayers money! They take our money buy stock fish, then release them in known areas with large populations of predators, to feed the F#### things to try and disguise the problem!

How bloody true!
woody71
Posts: 2935
   Old Thread  #70 16 Jan 2014 at 10.03pm    Login    Register
In reply to Post #69
lucian please dont delete your post as you have made some interesting points
lucipetrescu
Posts: 16
   Old Thread  #69 16 Jan 2014 at 9.56pm    Login    Register
In reply to Post #68
Sorry about the long and boring post. I will delete it if you want as it is your topic.
I was saying as UK environment agency haven't got a clue either


And to get a clue sometimes you have to read...
Frenzy
Posts: 11390
Frenzy
[ MODERATOR ]
   Old Thread  #68 16 Jan 2014 at 8.01pm    Login    Register
In reply to Post #67
sorry....but I got so bored after the first 3 lines mate...

so....sum it up for us

apart from Romanians haven't got a clue
lucipetrescu
Posts: 16
   Old Thread  #67 16 Jan 2014 at 6.57pm    Login    Register
Just read http://www.environment-agency.gov.uk/static/documents/Business/Otters_the_facts.pdf
It was a light and interesting reading as i don't know a lot about otters but it looks like it was written by a high-school pupil as a biology project.
It starts hilarious for an government agency relish(witch it is suppose to hire top scientist) even at Romanian low standards
"The Angling Trust, Environment Agency, Natural
England and others are working together to
improve understanding about the interactions
between otters and fish. This document
summarises our current knowledge and is
intended as a starting point for further work."
If this document "summarises our current knowledge" than you from UK have all the reason to worry.
Your first worry should be as the people who are paid to handle the situation are incompetent.
You have well protected natural water full of fish grown without commercial fishing, without poaching, without natural predators as soon as they pass the minnow stage, and extra fed by anglers. So maybe in some rivers the fish live stock is a couple of times more then normal. In this rivers i don't think the otters will be as territorial as described (as they don't have any reason) especially the ones grown in captivity and will bread well and live well for a couple of years till "natural balance" is back. They does say "their social
behaviour has some flexibility" . The real problems will begin i think in a couple of years when thousands of hungry animals well be banish from fishing grounds by the stronger otters when the fish stock will be below normal and had no place to go as the same situation will be everywhere.
I don't think environment-agency tested before releasing or when observing the explosion of otter populations what these animals do on land before dieing of hunger(as they said they will). It isn't cruel just to let a couple of otters away from any sources of water and monitor them. Maybe they won't die as soon as they predict. maybe the agony will take a few years maybe they can find pray on land and flourish. I'm pretty sure that they willl kill anything they can catch just not to die(i would do so if i were an otter)
But after all this will be gone, and of course, all private ponds surrounded you will enjoy these lovely creatures in your water. Personally i am proud that otters are living in the river near my town, here in romania. They came back slowly and they don't have condition to overbreed
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