|
|
|
|
In reply to Post #29
Cannot argue with the bait make up you describe, I have and still do use similar quality mixes. Cost is not an issue for me, I want a bait I am confident will catch the fish I'm after.
However I still would not use such a mix in the colder seasons preferring a much lower protein content and no fishmeal.
Interesting comment re lysine, as I notice that a lot of egg food based birdfood ingredients have added lysine and methionine.
|
|
|
|
This message has been suppressed by a moderator.
|
|
|
|
In reply to Post #31
BB
I've had a look at your previous post but still not convinced, a product with a stated % susceptibility does not mean that a carp can access all the nutrition, I thought it meant that at best it can be digested to that %.
So a carp might get a proportion of the % digestibity while for instance a carnivore such as a pike could in the case of a fish meal could get more. As cold blooded creatures the amount would be dependant on the temperature of the water which would effect the rate of metabolism. A warm blooded mammal with a more efficient digestive tract would get even more.
This is why I believe the FLAA theory does not stand up, the carp's ability to digest protein is temperature dependant, and the digestability of each protein source (eg fish, soya, yeast, etc) is also different and I doubt that this can be determined accurately.
Give them a decent amount of protein in the summer and we are doing the best we can. It has certainly worked very well for me without ever having to worry about FLAAs
|
|
|
|
In reply to Post #28
Thanks for the replies folks! I never knew the subject of digestability was sooo complicated!
The digestibility of the oils and carbohydrates surely has to be taken into account in the overall digestibility.
I posed a similar question too christian.
Seems to me that just focusing on the protein side of things is only a part of the whole picture.
I also wonder how quickly a Carp can tell that a food source is readily digestible and will preference a bait over a natural food source it is regularly consuming.
From what I've read and heard, it's tough to get fish eating bait if there is an abundance of natural food in a lake on offer.
|
|
|
|
In reply to Post #1
Hi Gaius,
"given their simple digestive system."
There are some great posts on this thread in answer to your initial question which makes very interesting reading.
My thoughts are that no matter how digestible you make a bait you will never be able to overcome the fact that carp have a "basic" digestible system that's incapable of processing the highest HNV baits.
Why they seek them out is for another thread.....
Best
Jon
|
|
|
|
In reply to Post #28
Hi Christian,
Please read my post no 12.
In your previous post, you based some of your points on the fact that commercial baits catch most of the fish.
But considering that probably 95% of anglers use them, it's hardly a fair comparison to use as to their effectiveness.
BB.
|
|
|
|
This message has been suppressed by a moderator.
|
|
|
|
In reply to Post #28
A good mix of a quality lt fishmeal, soluble quality milk protein, active yeast, some good attractors and a lysine rich liquid combined with a good flavour combo has been catching me carp for about 30 years now. Trouble is this mix costs a fair dollar these days and Therein lies the problem.......it ain't 5 quid a kilo anymore!!
If in doubt try a maggot
|
|
|
|
In reply to Post #27
Somebody is going to have to please explain to me the link between FLAA and digestibility as I don't get it, most of the AA's in our baits are in the form off the original protein or in peptides in pre-digested ingredients. How easy these are broken down I can understand as how digestible a bait might be. But even this only addresses the digestibility of the protein which might only account for 30-40% of the best baits. The digestibility of the oils and carbohydrates surely has to be taken into account in the overall digestibility.
And, as I stated previously in winter the carp's metabolism will be much slower than in the summer so the breakdown of the bait will be slower. This is why we use less bait in winter, but its not beyond possibility that we could use more if we reduced the nutritional ingredients of our baits and reduce the strain on the carps digestive tract.
|
|
|
|
FLAA is not about fish attraction. You can make a bait that is very digestible and have high attraction..
A well balanced bait, with attention given to the details such as FLAA and vitamin and mineral content, will be good for the carp. A healthy carp will grow more and feed more often so you have a better chance of catching a bigger fish. You also have the knowledge that you are doing everything you can to look after the carp.
Undigested bait will lead to poor water quality but a balanced bait will benefit the fish and the fishing 
|
|
|
|
In reply to Post #24
ABS have been telling their customers not to change off the hydra k for winter, I know that, and that backs up this argment nicely. Definitely a nicely put together bait that.
|
|
|
|
I would like to add my view regarding both FLAA and winter baits....
With regards to FLAA the theory is interesting but I have ignored it, as I would suggest have most commercial bait companies and there have been probably millions of carp caught on their baits plus the odd one or two on my own. It is quite possible to formulate a very attractive and nutritious bait with out considering it. Carp binge on what is available be that snails, bloodworm, etc without a single thought on whether they provide a full amino profile, and they treat our baits exactly the same.
It's all very good in a laboratory but in the real world the carp do not eat a single foodstuff and there will be so many different varieties of boilie eaten how could we possibly know which is the limiting amino acid.
With regards to winter baits, I think this relates to the original post, as cold water creatures the carp's metabolism will be different (slower?) in the winter so why shouldn't a different bait type be better at this time of year. They probably can't digest food as well as in the summer so baits that pass through them easily in the summer might not in the winter.
Most birdfood baits and even nut baits, commercially available are generally low in protein and there can be no denying that it is these types of bait have historically been the most successful winter baits, eg nutabaits enervite, Nash amber attract and of course mainlines cell.
I need to make sure I have as much as possible in my favour especially in the winter and my advice is don't take a chance come up with a birdfood bait relatively low in protein and if you must use fishmeal stick to the predigested variety as they are far more soluble.
|
|
|
|
In reply to Post #23
Yep, no coincidence that I use that mix (or a slight variation on it) for both summer and winter. Of course I catch less in winter due to the decreased metabolism of the carp in cold water but it has never crossed my mind to alter the bait's composition for summer/winter use. I get that people do like to change but also like to point out that their reason for doing so is flawed.
|
|
|
|
In reply to Post #22
Hi CC,
On the B/F, Pete B listed his standard mix, which has a fishmeal main protein and which many of the members used. He was asked whether he would change anything for winter fishing, and he replied no, and that the bait would work just as well in cold water.
BB.
|
|
|
|
Interesting thread with good contributions and no mud slinging!
In terms of bait for cold water it is often touted that we should drop fishmeals etc due to oil content and go to a nut bait for example with milk powder etc.
Due to poor digestion of oil in cold temps this has always been contradictory when you consider that the sack of Provimi I was looking at yesterday had an oil content of 6.8% whereas the milk powder next to it was 22% and nuts would certainly be higher than that. In my experience a well balanced fishmeal which covers FLAA and is not too high in oil will produce more than the accepted winter baits do. Anyone else have this experience?
|
|
