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In reply to Post #79
Quote... It's also about what else is in the make up of the bait not just best this or that.
Exactly that. Also, some individual ingredients are absolutely bang average on their own. Put them together with other bang average on their own ingredients, ferment them and incredible things are created. There are lots of examples of this that I have found.
So many incredible things are created in the human food industry by fermentation.
Cheese... Fermented milk.
Baking... Fermentation.
Beer & Wine making... Fermentation.
The list is endless.
A very simple Google will tell anyone that fermentation is used to IMPROVE the taste & nutritional value of so many products in the human food chain. It's even used to make penicillin and other medicines.
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In reply to Post #77
Agreed, the best way of all is finding out yourself.
It's also about what else is in the make up of the bait not just best this or that.
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In reply to Post #76
AA baits sell it. Never used it myself so no idea what it's like
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In reply to Post #76
Someone who sells Beef liver powder, is going to tell you exactly that. Someone who only sells Chicken liver powder will say the opposite.... Believe what you see with your own eyes. Not what some random person says online.
It's quite simple. Try them yourself Stephen. No one who has 'discovered' that for themselves through hard work, is ever going to just spill that information for you for all to see online. All that will happen is you will get others giving their 'opinions'.
Opinions are like bum holes. Everyone has one. The actual knowledge is another matter entirely.
Be the person who gains that very knowledge in the first place. Exactly what Lincs-Carper is trying to do on this very thread. It will open up endless possibilities for your bait if you can do that over the whole broad spectrum. There's no shortcuts by asking online. Not for anything real.
Please take that in the spirit in which it's meant. To help you.
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In reply to Post #75
So my question still stands from my original post. Can anyone recommend a supplier for beef liver powder or is it only mirage baits that it's easily accessible from?
Alongside that, what is the general consensus about liver powders? On one hand there are bait companies etc that are adamant chicken liver is inferior and then there are others that say there is simply no difference.
Which is it?
If you were let's say going to make a bait with liver as the main focal point. Would using beef liver produce a better bait or would using the chicken liver result in the bait being no different?
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In reply to Post #51
Robinbankes reply post #51
Off the back of this thread, has anyone tried the raw liver route or......Letting an enzyme treated solution begin to turn naturally and incorporate it into a good fishmeal/ milk protein mix? The fact that enzymes do not switch off without deactivation via Ph or heat in extreme, it would be interesting to decipher the possibility of the natural decomposition of these ingredients post enzymatic breakdown.
Hopefully back on track, if not it’ll be gone forever which would will be a shame.
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In reply to Post #49
LOL....I here you, but i guess its just tripe. Dogs love the stuff. No accounting for taste i guess. It does bloody pong for sure.
Interesting about the beef. Again, dehydrated and powdered, i guess the possibilities of an effective blend are endless, limited only to your imagination and what the old woman will tolerate on the stench scale! lol
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I picked up some dried beef from the market yesterday as a bit of fun. Once ground to a fine powder it became apparent the the protein element is very water soluble just leaving the remaining sinews etc and the resulting liquid is a very strong smelling one. It seems that liver dried at lower temps retains almost all protein as soluble. As another point, it's been well documented that liver goes well with yeast which have good nucleotide properties so the combo of liver/sodium inosinate/msg could bring good results. I don't think liver is that reliant on amino acids as an attractant but is actually a very good palatant with the added bonus of ffaa's mixed with a good array of aromatic compounds derived from maillards reaction plus fats just makes a bloody tasty treat. To then have nucleotidea added just adds to the attraction.
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In reply to Post #48
"Has anyone tried intestines as a viable source of inclusion ? " Erm, I think that will be a resounding have I fook mate 😂
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In reply to Post #47
Lets think what about the function of the liver and what it actually does in ANY animal or human. Then, allowing for all the toxicity accumulated, dependent on feed, hormones, steroids etc, It really does make you wonder just why these organs are so attractive to carp?
Going down this animal product line, has anyone tried, heart, kidney, flesh, intestines as a viable source of inclusion? Why is everything so one dimensional? Mince these, dehydrate these, Hydrolyse these and include these. I think that you will be pleasantly surprised. Blood products,both in liquid and powdered forms have always been a winnner for Carp attraction.
From my own perspective, the days of innovation have given way to lazy imitation. The instant carp angler syndrome most definitely prevails. Those that go above and behond through personal experimentation will, with a certain level of angling ability, shine much brighter.
What you put in, you will eventually receive back for your steadfast experimentation.
Christian.......Fats are KING! 
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In reply to Post #46
Can I just throw this out there, are we using livers just as a source of amino acids. I think there is something in Liver aside from the protein. Liver powder plain and hydrolysed, has a high fat content and is rich in fat soluble vitamins.
There is definitely to my mind something that elevates it above other meals.
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In reply to Post #45
Would not the resulting hydrolysis and then subsequent dehydration, if done on a lower heat ,yet for longer, still give out the liberated amino acids from that process, thus making that powder kind of an advanced Amino 50, Keratine powder?
I would have thought that would really come into its own as a hookbait coating or an addition to a bait/basemix?
I think you could actually take that a whole step further if you chose to!
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In reply to Post #44
37c is the optimum for my protease but yes will work at higher temps up to 60c. You are correct that any dehydration after enzyme treatment will denature them making a powder just a soluble liver powder. The liquid version is better if you want to keep it enzyme active. I actually used the liquid to create an enzyme bait but that's a whole different headache
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In reply to Post #41
That's really interesting. Can I ask if the effective working temp of your protease is 37c, or is that a heat that you are comfortable with? As most enzymes, protease that is peak at around 55c what temp are you then dehydrating at as i would hazard a guess that if your dehydrating your hydro at 55c-70c as is what most dehydrators suggest, will that not inhibit activity as it generally takes a good 16hrs and if it hits the top temp for any duration, will that not then shut off activity with your resulting powder? Unless of course you are dehydrating longer on a lower heat?
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In reply to Post #42
I actually just dry thick cut lumps of liver, then dehydrate before grinding the hard chunks. Sadly Philip Harris will no longer supply to anyone outside school, colleges, uni's so I'm now using a good multi enzyme. I don't get any off cuts but obviously I can't hydrolise everything in the mixture as the substrate is around 60% protein leaving sinews etc, mind you those bits float up leaving a nice droplet effect
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In reply to Post #41
A perfectionist at work ! Drying out ( and I'm guessing thinly slicing ) the liver beforehand sounds like work though ! The food chopper I mentioned earlier has 4 blades and does a fairly decent job if I add some liquid. Any stubborn bits I just sieve out and the dog gets a treat. Are you still using the Philip Harris bacterial protease ?
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Just seen this thread and thought I'd add my thoughts and ideas. I do my own beef liver hydro and could also turn that into a powder but I use straight protease to facilitate the hydrolosis. I started using blended liver but omg it's messy and I found any bits more than a few mm in size wouldn't work so decided to dehydrate fresh liver and then grind to a powder. This then had water added plus the enzyme and then left for 6hrs at 37c. What you end up with is a liver liquid/waste product. This mix can obviously be used strained or as is and dehydrated again to achieve a powder if that's what you want. As well as the liver which smells amazing it will remain enzyme active unless the liquid is heated which makes one hell of a coating.
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In reply to Post #39
Yep, but liquidising the liver can be a bit messy! I'm using a Homgeek 500w food chopper . Just have to make sure that the lid is firmly sealed , otherwise the kitchen looks like a crime scene 😂.
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In reply to Post #38
Sounds good mate!
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In reply to Post #37
Made a few batches of liver and CSL already from watching his vids. Instead of his lactoserum, I'm using lactobacillus from Vadasz live sauerkraut. I put about a tablespoon of the juice into a solution of 50/50 molasses and water and incubate for a few days to grow the bacteria for a starter culture. I then ferment either liquidised liver or cracked corn in a carboy with an airlock for up to 5 weeks. The finished liquid is not as thick as commercially available ones. This is not a problem for me as I use the liquid at higher levels whilst reconstituting powdered egg for a mix. The thinner consistency is also better for using as a bait soak.
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In reply to Post #35
Look up bait tactics on you tube. South African guy he does some really interesting videos including making your own hydros liver etc
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In reply to Post #35
Oh Gosh no, not commercially. However he has been supplying quite a few seasoned anglers under the radar with products for many years, just a little different to the norm. I will ask, but don,t hold your breath. You know how secretive these old school boys can be about recipes and giving away their edges. 
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In reply to Post #34
Is it made commercially for retail ? If not, spill the beans on the process. We all love a bit of DIY bait info on here 😁
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In reply to Post #33
Thank you for explaining that, that actually makes a lot of sense. Different processes i would assume, give different aroma's. Thank you.
And yes Enzymes are used in his process, so this makes perfect sense. Apologies to all.
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In reply to Post #31
It states on the Mirage Baits website that the liquid contains no stabilisers or additives. It's a lacto fermented product which will attain a PH low enough to preserve the liquid naturally once it's ready. Any beer brewer will tell you, that you get different flavour/aroma compounds dependant on yeast strain, fermentables and fermentation conditions. This also applies to lacto ferments. Is your friend producing his liquid on a commercial scale using enzyme hydrolysis ?
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In reply to Post #31
No offence taken from me mate. I have no affiliation to Marcus watts apart from enjoying listening to his podcasts.
I have no idea about his liver hydro other than what he stated in his podcast that he orders ox liver from his local butcher and makes it himself.
What I do know is making a consistent hydro at home without dedicated specialist lab equipment isn’t easy so I would say there are many factors that could make a product that isn’t consistent or stable, this is another reason I opt for dna/baf liver hydro. I know it’s consistent as it’s produced under laboratory conditions and not someone’s bait unit.
As I side note I’m no expert but I’ve used many hydros that haven’t been particularly active. I have heard some home bait makers confuse Fermentation with hydrolysis which I know can cause containers to explode but I’m talking well outside my box now. Hopefully someone will correct me if I’m wrong.
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In reply to Post #28
Now... Please do not take this the wrong way.....
My friend, a very close one, has given me some feedback on the liver hydro after using it and having a damn good sniff. His professional opinion is , it is not a straight forward Beef liver hydro. Not at least from the way he makes it himself. There would appear to be, an underlying aroma which does not represent pure hydrolysed liver, especially Beef which is what he specialises in and would suggest to him at least, that there is another ingredient involved? Preservative or stabiliser perhaps? Activity once left in a warmer environment, will be the tell tale sign, as activity once preserved should cease or the bottle will shoot to the stars stored above ambient temperatures .Lets see. Fingers well and truly crossed.
Please do not shoot the messenger.
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In reply to Post #28
Sounds like a banging bait. Lots going on in there. Loving the savoury with onion route , Liquid beef extract, Liver in both powdered and liquid form.
That will be very interesting to taste. I can imagine it doing very well.Lets see what that retail is. Hopefully not the same price as the Key! lol
Thanks for the information. 
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In reply to Post #28
Sounds like a interesting bait
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In reply to Post #1
It seems Marcus watts at Mirage baits is going to be selling a rolled bait containing his home made beef liver powder. Thought a few in this thread may be interested.. info below copied from his FB page
I guess the cats out of the bag ! as I let slip on the recent carp chronicles pod cast with Sam that I had been playing with a proper liver bait to do our liver powder and hydro liquid justice. The messages since, asking about will it be released, when, and can’t wait ! Have been very encouraging so here’s the info
The Liver and onion mix is called ‘The Lion’ 😉(see what we’ve done there lol)
It’s freezer only !!!!! A total break from every other bait I provide but I’m so proud of the active properties and bacterial breakdown going on in the liver liquid it would be criminal to stop this by stabilising- and the active compound then starts working on the rest of the bait.
It’s got bits of a real old school high protein base but with my twists to make a unique combination - the ingredients are classic, expensive and some are only used these days at the correct levels by a small minority of home rollers.
Does it make a difference? Some will know, some will experiment and some are already catching enough on our other baits so won’t need it 😂
In the mix !
Casein - the best I can get from sports nutrition supplier @ 20%
My liver powder @ 5% by weight of basemix
Pre digested CPSP90 fishmeal @ 10%
Whey protein concentrate at 5%
Meat meal (beef origin) 25%
Onion powder, mushroom powder and some other powders 😂
Last parts will be wheat germ, home milled clo, some micronised veg etc to get it to the rollable consistency
Liquids are: lots of my liver hydro, onion oil, another essential oil long forgotten 😂. Liquid Beef extract, csl and that’s all I can mention
I’d like it used - the food value and attraction is high so there’s no need to throw loads in
Release will be mid to late October and it will be no more expensive than the higher priced but inferior baits out there on shelves. There won’t be gimmick products - just what’s needed to catch carp
The LI-ON. The king of the carp world is nearly out of the cage
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In reply to Post #26
Couldn't you make liver meal yourself, grind up dried, readily avavilable as dog chews, easy enough to make your own if you have a dehydrator
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In reply to Post #20
As far as I'm aware Protavit Liver contained liver meal but where you would get that from these days is anyone's guess.
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In reply to Post #24
On the datasheet for the AA beef liver it says its spray dried cooked beef liver. Not quite the same as a hydro but probably more soluble that a desiccated liver I guess.
I used to use the BAF hydro liver powder which is from chickens but now they are trade only I get it from AA Baits.
Certainly many options when it comes to just adding 'liver' to a bait 
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In reply to Post #22
Not compared them side by side but from memory the only difference was that the protolysed was slightly paler in colour but that might change batch to batch.
Both are very hydroscopic, highly soluble very fine powders
If you look at the beef liver on AA baits web site you will see that they don't actually call it "hydrolysed" so it might be exactly the same product as QBs
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In reply to Post #21
If protolised and hydrolised are very similar in what they do then I would expect the products to be equally attractive in a bait. I am no expert in both processes to say and google is not a great deal of help on the subject.
If I had the time I would buy and compare them both but my bait works fine with hydrolised chicken liver so no real need to chop and change it right now.
>Having since used the "hydrolysed" beef liver I am actually not sure they aren't the same >product. Certainly very, very similar.
That is what I suspect is the case. Maybe a slightly different process but the end results are very similar, at least as far as application in baits.
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In reply to Post #21
Hi Christian
Just out of interest, does it look and smell the same? I can't actually find much info on the product other than for pharma uses which could well be the reason it is so costly.
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In reply to Post #18
It's over 10 years ago now but at one time QB used to sell desiccated liver powder and I had ordered a kg along with other ingredients. For whatever reason they sent a kg of protolised liver instead. I had used it before in small quantities so I recognised it immediately.
Long story short I used it in the bait at 5% and that bait was very effective. Couldn't afford to replicate it at the time.
Having since used the "hydrolysed" beef liver I am actually not sure they aren't the same product. Certainly very, very similar.
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In reply to Post #18
Just as an aside...where did you think the name of the old bait Protovit liver came from?
Just linking things up like 
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In reply to Post #18
Ok....That's a great point made, one which i had not really thought about. However, Another way of approaching or looking at this would possibly be synergistically, what would be the likely outcome of blending various meat meals, as every organ is potentially that, i would guess .Could it be that the AA profile could be attained from various sources of animal, meat based products derived from , liver, heart, kidney, spleen and flesh? if that's the defining factor? Based on an Amino Acid profile......
Would powdered dehydrated products, be, from an anglers point of view, both cost effective and ultimately be more productive as in fish stimulation and subsequent captures, than raw flesh......ie, liquidised squid etc....Banging additive i might add. But my real question is, considering the basic requirements of carp and also the fact that they really are underwater pigs that will exploit each and every available food source. Why do we feel the need to spend all that money, time and stress , on a fish that will eat with gusto, a grain of hemp, chick peas and a very forgotten bait, broad beans?. Case and point, protolised Liver extract? Is it really that expensive? Are we over complicating things?
I myself love liver, eating it and the taste of it. There must be something very primal and addictive to us and to carps receptors.....If you like liver that is?
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In reply to Post #17
Depends if its the mix of AA that you are looking for or if other elements of the liver powder are what you want (vits, mins, fats etc). If the later then mixing might just dilute what you want. Personally I have never tried mixing them but then I don't often mix fishmeals either but rather use more of one and make sure its as fresh as possible.
>Protolised Liver Extract
Not me, Quality Baits list it but at £56/kg I am not jumping in to try it when hydrolised is £12/kg. Unless someone can show its worth the money?
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In reply to Post #11
I would hazard a guess that given most people mix combinations of fishmeals to achieve a certain amino profile, would it not and correct me if i am wrong, be prudent or at least a consideration to mix various Liver powders, to achieve the very same?
We do it with milks and fishmeals, so for those looking to create something a bit different and who have deep pockets and are not governed by £££££,s, it just could work in their favour?
As an aside, has anyone looked at Protolised Liver Extract?
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I've been using bovine liver powder at 5% inclusion in my base mix since the mid-nineties - I see no reason to change something which seems to work rather well .........
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In reply to Post #12
That’s the point I think. It’s been mentioned a couple of times on podcasts by various people and now all of a sudden everyone is jumping on it. At least one of the people I’ve heard banging its drum happens to be one of the few people selling it also. Funny that.
Chicken liver products have been used for years and have caught untold carp. I’m yet to be convinced beef is a big upgrade especially when you take into account the different in price and availability.
But ultimately what do I know, my only experience of beef liver products was a few years ago when the guy that did the enzyme reactive bait (can’t remember his name) was selling it. I much preferred the hydrolysed chicken product from BAF
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In reply to Post #13
Not quite a direct comparison but years back I could buy dessicated liver but not the hydro.
I really liked the dessicated version but found you had to use at least 5% inclusion rate, preferably 10% for it to make a perceivable difference.
I use both chicken and beef hydros and while I am sure the beef is best the chicken is not that far behind. For me 5% is still the minimum to include.
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In reply to Post #12
I have listened to that one but don't recall talk of hydro liver just dried liver so two very different things in my experience.
Anyone else compared dried liver powder with hydro liver powder in the same, or very similar, mix?
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In reply to Post #11
Have a listen to the carp chronicles lastedt podcast. There is a section discussing just this and the perceived differences between chicken pork lamb beef livers.
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In reply to Post #9
I have also been wondering this. Some of the products mentioned are dried and powdered liver and some are hydrolysed before being turned into a powder. I have used dried/powdered chicken and beef and in my, admittedly limited, tests found no difference to attraction.
I currently used a hydrolysed chicken liver in a fishmeal based bait and it works better in my fishing (and on my pond fish) than a dried beef liver powder in the same mix. This comparison was done in the spring last year so could be different in the other seasons, not something I have time to try out. Being hydrolysed it is much more soluble than just dried/powdered liver. You will need to take this solubility into account when working out your mix and the function you want the liver powder to have
edit to add that although dried/powdered chicken and beef liver seemed to make no difference to attraction in my basic tests the nutritional profile of beef is better on paper so could be better for longer term bait use. Now if I could just find some hydrolysed beef powder I would be willing to bet that would be better but so far not seen it as sensible prices.
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In reply to Post #9
https://www.saebaitdevelopments.com/blogs/prototype-bait-developments/stage-1-amino-liver
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In reply to Post #1
What is it that makes beef liver powder seemingly so much more desirable than chicken? Not trying to be controversial I’m genuinely interested. To me the chicken liver hydro and powder from DNA/BAF have always been really good for me.
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I bought some beef liver from AA Baits recently.
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I'm sure AA baits have a beef liver powder on their website
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In reply to Post #5
Never used em mate as I make all my own No doubt someone on here will be along soon to give you some info. Meanwhile, like I said, have a listen to the Carp Chronicles Podcast. The man knows his onions. There's a clue there if you put liver in your baits 😉
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In reply to Post #4
Haha yes I didn't see the 40g bit. The mirage stuff is perfect thank you. Whilst on mirage, what bare his actual boilies like ?
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In reply to Post #2
Looks like the real deal but do the maths. £4.95 for 40 g, so £123.75 per KG Lol
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In reply to Post #1
Mirage Baits do their own beef liver powder. The owner, Marcus sources beef liver from the local butchers and dessicates it in house before powdering. You won't do any better than that !
Also, have a listen to the latest Carp Chronicles Podcast as he talks about it on there.
Or get yourself a dessicator and do your own.
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In reply to Post #1
Is this the real stuff?
https://www.thedogchef.co.uk/supplements/liver-powder-for-dogs/
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Can anyone recommend somewhere i can get hold of someone proper beef liver powder. Seen a few places advertising beef liver powder but it's a sandy colour not dark brown which tells me its chicken liver not beef
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