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In reply to Post #46
Would you say that the same theory applies to fish and insect meals? Which proteins do the carp have the ability to digest and how are they different from ‘animal’ proteins?
Would milk protein also be classified animal? Or are you referring to ‘meat and bone meal’ as a specific product?
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In reply to Post #47
Referring to the same book I mention in #48 (can be bother to type its name out again!) liver meal is very good at improving weight gain in young carp and 'there is no limit in use of....liver meal except of economic reasons'. This suggests it is very digestible despite being an animal product.
They recommend 5-10% to gain the full nutritional benefits which they do not separate from attraction as its a guide for fish farmers who are after different things (max weight vs min cost).
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In reply to Post #46
What is your source for this information? Not picking a fight, I really like to learn new things.
The protein in Meat and Bone meal is up to 75% digestible by some fish (can't find specific data for carp but it is lower than this due to no real stomach). This is not as good as fish meal (86% digestible by carp) or poultry by-products (feather) meal but it is still not terrible. My source is mainly the Handbook on Ingredients for Aquaculture and Feeds by J. Hertrampf and F Piedad-Pascual.
The main issue with the meat and bone meal is the AA profile is not great and the ash content is high. With a mixture of other AA sources and higher fiber/course ingredients this can be helped a bit and thus improve the apparent digestibility. Probably stops them getting gut ache to 
I don't personally use meat and bone meal but I have in the past been very successful with a poultry by product meal which served me well in a bait at 15% inclusion rate for over 10 years. Caught loads on it from all sorts of different waters. I also sold a few tons of that bait commercial in that time. I only stopped using it when availability became an issue due to changes in EU laws and truth be told I fancied trying something different!
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In reply to Post #46
Just out of interest, what would liver powder be considered as, as it comes from animals and has a good protein content. Or are you specifically referring to just those 2 types of animal protein?
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In reply to Post #45
What you are referring to is meat and bone meal ,while loads of anglers and bait makers think that ,meat and bone and for that matter poultry meal ,is good protein for bait ,it is not fish do not have the ability to diguest animal protein, why would they ?
So while they will initially eat bait containing these ingredients ,they basiclly get severe guts ache and probably constipated, and rapidly learn not to eat it , so I think it is highly unlikely to have been included in any successful long term bait.
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In reply to Post #44
I doubt it’s the same. I’ve been told by several people that one of the key ingredients was a bovine animal feed meal, and after either foot and mouth or BSE it became illegal to feed cows on cow meat, so the product became redundant and was discontinued.
No idea how you’d find out for certain though.
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In reply to Post #43
Yes but is it the same activ-8 and what about the liquid. Loved activ-8. Premier base mix with nodd oil and peach. Hutchinson addicted cheese smell. And definitely cc moore metor
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In reply to Post #41
Johnsonross the tackle box will have 10 kg buckets in stock
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In reply to Post #41
That’s why I originally asked about a stockist not been able to find a bucket anywhere
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"didn’t want to just have to buy base mix in 1kg bags"
According to mainline website base mixes are available in 10 kg buckets including active 8 but couldn't find a stockist, maybe Jr could source it 🤔
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Matrix -ari = mtx
Same bait/recipe I believe, think I'll ask for a sample with my next order see if it compares to what I remember.
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In reply to Post #37
That’s where I was referring to didn’t want to just have to buy base mix in 1kg portions
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In reply to Post #6
What is ARI as referenced by Scotch-Egg in reference to ABS MTX?
I'm currently having good success with ABS Malarkey, have got some Quality Baits Squid in too but tbh the Malarkey appears to be out-fishing it, will keep trialling the two together but think Malarkey will be my staple going forward.
Do have a 'Monster Crab' bait to try at some point too.
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In reply to Post #36
Have you had a look at Johnson Ross tackle. Think they've got a bit of an exclusive with mainline on there base mixes.
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In reply to Post #35
Where abouts are you getting it could only find 1kg bags of the base mix last time I looked?
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In reply to Post #33
Id agree with what shimmer said, its just not fashionable anymore, its harder to get hold of but a lot of places stock it still . Got 20 kilo in the freezer might give it a whirl next week
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In reply to Post #33
"old bait" not fashionable
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In reply to Post #32
Didnt know that! I wonder why they dont really promote it?
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In reply to Post #14
you can still get activate friom mainline..
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In reply to Post #30
Essential b5
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In reply to Post #28
Wasn't that activ-8? The original grange didn't contain any flavour. CSL was added but people often used milky toffee or sweet plum as well.
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In reply to Post #28
Didn't the OG grange bait also contain blue cheese powder?
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In reply to Post #23
The Grange bait flavour was a boiled or smoked ham flavour that they brought off Rod Hutchinson
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In reply to Post #25
Trigerol is a figment of some ones imagination ,like so many supposed exotic ingredients ,
the flavour which was liver came from Pancosma , I knew the dear lady ( dead several years now from the big C )who operated the office in Nottingham quite well , and she told me what Nutrabaits were buying at the time and the base mix was a copy of a very successful bait still in production today but without the Robin Red (too expensive ) They actually purchased their first Krill and Hydrolysed fish from the company that still make the bait.
As for Hydrolysed Chicken liver I doubt it, they were selling Beef liver powder at £8.00 for 50grms at the time.
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In reply to Post #19
Im not sure that isn't true of all the older baits (not just Nutrabaits) with the various laws and restrictions placed on ingredients.
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In reply to Post #24
Yep... BFM is easily made from scratch to the original recipe.
Trigga would be more difficult as Trigerol isn't available now, although the bulk of that product was actually hydrolysed chicken liver. So adding that with krill, to a good proper fishmeal/CLO/milks type base would get you pretty close I'd have thought?
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In reply to Post #19
Haiths Robi red, CLO fishmeal and milk proteins all still readily available. Maybe a few tweeks. But I doubt it effected the baits ability to catch that much I'd of thought.
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In reply to Post #20
Keramine and a meat meal (not meat and bone).
The flavour was a water based Boiled Ham.
Having also air dried some too many moons ago, I remember the smell taking on a slight parmesan type aroma, so I suspected that there was some form of cheese powder in there too (as there was in the Grange)
And I agree, the original was a damn fine bait!
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In reply to Post #13
Forgot about Active-8
I still have some that I air dried about 15 years ago 
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In reply to Post #20
I’d be interested to know too!
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In reply to Post #15
Does anyone what the key ingredients in activ8 were?
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Can’t include BFM or Trigga because some of the core ingredients are just not available anymore , yet Nutrabaits still call the new baits with the old name , basically resting on the laurels of the old recipes. Not saying the new base mixes are not great carp catchers , but did they have the same impact on waters as the originals did 20/30 years ago ?
Probably not .
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In reply to Post #17
Have to agree with that.. 
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In reply to Post #6
Premier Fish Base.
Because every great fishmeal since has its core built around the fishmeal/CLO/milks combo.
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In reply to Post #15
I pre rolled my Active 8 because the stuff bought wasn't patch on the old boilie.
For some reason when I rolled my own and added nutramino it was awesome.
But I'm tired of rolling now so changed
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In reply to Post #14
Activ-8
One or more of the key ingredients were discontinued, or become too expensive to put into a bait.
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In reply to Post #13
Anyone know why they stopped producing it?
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In reply to Post #11
Activ-8 for me is still the best bait I’ve used in 35 years of carp fishing. Literally catches everywhere from the off.
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I'm rolling my own bait for the first time in twenty three years, but if I wasn't I'd happily still use Scopex Squid
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In reply to Post #3
Nutrabaits big fish mix
Carp Company Icelandic Red
Essential baits B5.
& Cell, can't argue with any of that. It's a shame Active 8 was stopped, it'd be up there too.
Even though I didn't particularly like it I might add Trigga & Trigga Ice to that list and push come to shove it'd get booted for Cream Cajouser, for me anyway.
If I had to choose 1 it'd be BFM Cran & Cav, simply because I spent more time fishing with it though I also did well on Carp Company IR, Never used B5 but it's rep was right up there and still is.
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In reply to Post #9
With the Cell I'd say a combination of both. A very palatable bait. Palability plays a bigger part in what makes a great bait, than what people think. Goes like mush after a few hours in the water making it far more digestible.
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In reply to Post #8
Is that because it's so good, or because it's so widely used? I'd say the latter
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Cell, put more big carp on the bank than any other - irrespective what someone on here/ the internet will try and tell you about hnv/nutritious carp baits ect ect ect . Shame they dont do big ( 24mm) baits as id use it at the drop of a hat.
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In reply to Post #6
Loved the matrix
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Not only malarkey an old premier classic recipe,abs do MTX which is simply premier matrix without the ARI . Another classic red fishmeal with year round effectiveness.
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In reply to Post #4
Dynamite still make it. So it must be selling. Marcus Watts of Mirage baits the originator of the Source for Dynamite. Does his own version Resevoirs specials I think there called. Another classic red fishmeal.
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In reply to Post #3
Yep those boilies with heritage that is still going and doing it today.
I did wonder if Source should have been on the list too, but wasn't sure if it was used much these days.
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If your looking at an actual bait that's been catching big fish year in year out for 30 years plus. Rather than an actual company. For me it would be a Red Fishmeal, Robin red or some other spice product. Fish oil plus flavour. As for company's. You would have to look at.
ABS ( Malarky etc, Premiers baits spiced fish was a pre runner )
Nutrabaits big fish mix
Carp Company Icelandic Red
Essential baits B5.
No doubt a few I've forgotten abait
There's a reason these company's still have them in there line up for the best part of 30 yrs. And the GOAT Terry hearn still uses a Red fishmeal to this day. Even the new kids on the block Sticky baits are bringing one out.
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Another all round bait for the winter and summer would be ABS malarkey I believe he drops the % of oil in the winter bait.
But if I had to choose a mainstream bait that probably most anglers have heard of then it would be the mainline cell
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I've been looking at something for the colder months and it has got me wondering what the most successful boilie has been over the longest period of time (not just in the colder months)?
I figured it was between Mainline Cell and CCM Live System, with Cell probably coming out on top.
Are there any other readily available boilies today up there with these two? Appreciate the likes of Sticky, DNA and BaitWorks are doing it now, but do they or any others even get close?
Surely there's a fishmeal that should be up there too?
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