|
|
|
|
Wish I could remember which brand had potash listed as one of the ingredients…
|
|
|
|
In reply to Post #72
Recipe on iso fish packets and their pop ups virtually the same
|
|
|
|
In reply to Post #74
I did that quite a while ago, after taking a picture and blowing it up so I could read it 
After a google, similar to what you have got.
I believe there is something like pythase, spelt right, in the activator, but can’t see that, tastes rank though, very chemical 
Base mixes have always been basic, not HNV
Mirage baits do a CSL with a part 2 or something, think they have figured it out, considering what the Grange was…
|
|
|
|
In reply to Post #75
EU law means you have to list ingredients for bait sold in the EU, who or how it's checked is at best vague! However you wouldn't want to get caught out as the consequences could be huge and probably not worth the risk for a long established business.
|
|
|
|
In reply to Post #74
Hi Smurf.
Yes they are the same liquid ingredients I could see listed on a packet from a bait group.
How bound would you be to include your exact ingredients on what in reality is fishing bait.
I suppose you can just get away with being vague.
You wouldn’t exactly give away your secrets which you have perfected, because of eu legislation surely.
Or is that just me 😅.
|
|
|
|
In reply to Post #72
That is from a bag of Essential Cell I believe? Is the freezer Cell the same?
Also the same bag of Essential Cell says 'EEC Permitted Liquid Flavourings, Antioxidant, Sweetner, Colourant 0.001%, E415, E422. 7g/Kg'.
The key to the bait could be in these mainly unknown products (E415 is Xanthan Gum and E422 is Ammonium phophatides which is often used in food products with Rapeseed oil as an emulsifier and stabiliser) and how they interact with the basemix ingredients.
|
|
|
|
In reply to Post #72
If that’s really the constituents of The Cell then we have been overthinking things. I have seen this bait dominate waters.
|
|
|
|
Reigniting an old thread.
I can see that it was mentioned in this thread that the cell ingredients were not known.
But they have obviously been listed on the packaging which I assume is since this conversation.
And they are indeed an extremely simple mix.
Soya 33%
Pasta flour 24%
Potato protein 18%
Micronised maize 7.7%
Soya bean meal 6.3%
Heat treated rapeseed 6%
Egg products 5%
I’m assuming this fuels the fire for the fermentation/enzyme argument?
To assume that it’s just good marketing is farcical, I think there most successful baits have continued on the same theme of the grange all those years ago, simply reinventing a new bait under the same guise.
Because anglers require it.
|
|
|
|
In reply to Post #69
I suppose that's the question i was asking or invitation for opinion as has been rightly stated we don't know what's in the basemix. Has any of the tests suggested that that reaction is only with the dedicated basemix or does it react the same with others? Some have suggested it works well in other basemixes on this thread but that doesn't mean that it's as or equally effective for sure. You guys clearly have a wealth of bait knowledge so was just interested in your thoughts/conclusions  .
|
|
|
|
In reply to Post #69
That’s why the baits are soft
Have you tasted the activator, I have, really harsh
|
|
|
|
In reply to Post #68
I must say I think there is something in the cell activator (maybe that amylase) that makes the dough (and finished bait) behave a bit different to dough that has been made with other liquids.
|
|
|
|
In reply to Post #67
The mainline baits have always had some kind of activator, or in the case of assassin 8 a catalyst (google catalyst) that should help you
If you read about the Grange bait, part 1 and part 2 that should tell you a bit
Discussions around the Cell are purely speculation because we do not know exactley what goes in it but based on what I have said about Mainline, do your own thinking
|
|
|
|
In reply to Post #66
Right thanks. So does that confirm or dispel the claim that the cell activator only reacts to certain dry ingredients in the cell basemix or not? If that is true then it is fairly ineffective in any other basemix i assume or is it just a flavoured gimmick with very good sales promotion as i believe was suggested earlier?
|
|
|
|
In reply to Post #65
I have not seen any reaction of the cell liquid after about a week. I even put them in a new (now really airtight) bag with some added water. No mold, no sugars coming out. Nothing.
|
|
|
|
In reply to Post #63
Please excuse my naivety but is the conclusion that the activator with another comprehensive nut type mix like the ones suggested from Trent or AA a viable alternative to cell to answer the OP's question??
|
|
|
|
In reply to Post #62
Tight enough for this
|
|
|
|
In reply to Post #61
There is absolutely no difference in hardness to be detected.
I will add some water and put them in a deep freeze bag that I will close by a tight knot. Maybe that will help.
|
|
| | | noj | | Posts: 11459 | | | Social photographer... | |
|
In reply to Post #61
As an ardent consumer of zip lock bags I assure you not many are truly airtight. 
|
|
|
|
In reply to Post #60
The bags are air tight and will create anaerobic conditions.
Bit on enzymes and bacteria here;
Bacteria produce a variety of enzymes that allow for complex chemistry to occur. Bacteria are actually the factories that produce enzymes. When the right bacteria are present, in the right quantities, and under the right conditions, they produce enzymes much more economically than people can manufacture them
May be better covering them in a little water? I would check the texture for softening though
The more I think about it I think the activators are mainly CSL based and a flavour addition and then an enzyme.
|
|
|
|
I am testing Bob's setup; making them sweat on a bag and see if there is a different reaction in baits with cell liquid and without.
Now, after 3 nights in a double zip lock bag nothing to see yet. But I suspect the zip lock bags aren't fully airtight. Does anyone know if the bags must contain air/oxigen or absolutely no oxigen for a reaction to follow? Thinking I'm doing it wrong here
|
|
|
|
In reply to Post #58
Ah, yes okay!
|
|
|
|
In reply to Post #55
I mean once submerged. It breaks down quicker than other filler ingredients to
|
|
|
|
In reply to Post #56
Usually I'll make it and leave in a warm place for it to continue breaking down starches and begin to ferment. Once it's ripe I'll either use or freeze it at the correct stage, that sticky slightly boozy smell stage. If I'm making a proper amylase bait I use bacterial amylase and one called alcotec. They both work at different temps so gets a good time frame to work once in boiling water.
|
|
|
|
In reply to Post #51
Worth nothing that the effectiveness of the amylase in breaking down the starches is strongly linked to temperature & time.
Very interesting reading in to what you have found...can understand how the maize is helping.
Were you using this bait fresh or freezing after production and using at a later date?
|
|
|
|
In reply to Post #53
Funny, I include maize for its hardening properties and structure.
|
|
|
|
In reply to Post #53
Yep ground it myself, as you say diastatic malt powder is a bit pricey. Inclusion rate need to be low due to the inherent overpowering smell/taste...unless it's combined with chocolate flavour
|
|
|
|
In reply to Post #51
Maize makes baits very very soft when submerged, something I think helps at any time of year including winter, malt barley is an interesting one, take it you ground it down yourself? Tge flour can be silly money
|
|
|
|
In reply to Post #51
Oh just give me a bag of tutties I'm joking  sorry I'm noddy, I'm trying to understand this but mozzi,s gone quiet
|
|
|
|
In reply to Post #47
I was of the same opinion about enzymes being attractive but have now changed thoughts to the bi-product of enzymatic reaction in terms of aromatic compounds that have been achieved from the fermentation of the reaction whether that be sugars from amylase or ffaa or peptides. The tricky bit for me is working out which one of these compounds gives the best results.
As for brewers, that's a great point. I've done a birdfood using malted barley at 10% and the inherent amylase will hydrolyse some of the starches, especially if using micronised maize at 20%. The resulting maltose is rapidly fermentable and if mixed with a bit of chocolate flavour seemed successful in winter.
|
|
|
|
In reply to Post #49
Great info, thanks!
|
|
|
|
In reply to Post #48
Home Brewers use amylase to release the sugar from grains so yes the reaction continues in water.
|
|
|
|
In reply to Post #47
And furthermore Bob (and this may be a dumb question of my part), how does this (enzymatic) reaction occur? Does it also form/take place underwater?
Because I think it may also be the case that situations are different when taking out a bait from the freezer, letting it thaw and sweat and then fish with it (when the enzymes may be working for us), while on the other hand (and I fish like this) taking baits from the freezer and straight into the lake (get them as fresh as possible to the fish).
Would that also change things?
|
|
|
|
In reply to Post #46
I had long suspected that it might be the enzymes themselves that were attractive but I heard/read a comment which disputed this as the actual enzyme molecules are too big to be detected by the carps receptors. The accuracy of that statement is beyond my knowledge but the guy who said it Dean Towey is someone who's ideas on bait I generally go along with.
I certainly agree with your comment about active baits, but I wish someone could give an equally confident response to a very similar question, can the carps receptors detect peptides? The reason I ask this is that I really don't think that there are many free AAs in most of our baits, at least when they first come out of the freezer.
|
|
|
|
In reply to Post #45
I guess the question is where does the extra attraction come from. At a guess I'd say it's the volatiles that the bacteria secrete that creates something or as my old thinking was that the soup of enzymes secreted are actually attractive somehow..whether that's possible I have no idea but!!! Most will say from the aa's and simple sugars liberated from the food but imo active bait is much more attractive than a bait with inherent ffaa and sugars.
|
|
|
|
In reply to Post #35
In reply to Post #33
As ever I've got a different angle (that's probably wrong) but regarding sugars and yeasty type foods under water I've started thinking that by massively promoting lakebed bacterial activity with the introduction of sugar and food for bacteria, the levels of multiple enzymes secreted by those bacteria could in effect turn a simple sugar/yeast feed into a super food that's very easily digested. Obviously this would take some time to happen unless that process has already started before being introduced, similar to the old white spores on activ 8....mind you, I could well be talking out of my Arris as I'm no scientist
Don't think that you are far out 
It also explains why Activ8 and original Grange CSL were not available in Shelf life.
Many baits are at their best a few days out of the freezer, there is an increased attraction.
|
|
|
|
In reply to Post #43
It sounds promising mate. Maybe you used too much corn or too little water resulting in the starch that had been hydrolysed soaking back into the remaining starch making it stiffer again. Maybe a little more heat will reactivate the amylase and get it working again. From your initial findings I'd say that if the paste became more liquid after adding the cell then amylase is the likely culprit. If you wanted to try it again I'd suggest adding enough water to the corn to make it really wet almost like soup as it will soak up loads of water as it get hot around 60c. Add the cell while still warm and keep stirring.
|
|
|
|
In reply to Post #42
Hi Steve,
I just tested it. I took a cup of corn meal, put water on that, let it microwave for 1 minute at 600 watts then stirred everything up until pretty solid. Then let it cool down and put 5 ml of Cell Activator on it and stirred it up.
Afterwards the whole mix was back pretty runny again. Not as runny as I just put in the water just before heating, but pretty runny and shiny again. I think there is amylase in Cell Activator then, right? I was thinking it could also be, that I am just thinning down the whole mix and thus making it more fluid?
Oh and I made pictures of all stages so you can check if it did the procedure right?
Edit: after a while (I guess 1 hour) that mix turned a bit stiffer again. That can't happen when there is amylase in it as that dissolves the starch, I think?
I made some test batches tonight aswel and the dough batch with the cell activator felt different to the other with just csl, some syrup and a CC Moore bait booster.
|
|
|
|
In reply to Post #41
I will buy some porridge for you and test it out. I may send you a message to get precise instructions about Wat and how to do. 
|
|
|
|
In reply to Post #39
Bit of an odd request but to put my theory of the activator having amylase in it you could test a small amount of cooked cereal, something like ready break. Make porridge as usual and when cooled to room temp add a small amount of activator and see if the porridge turns to liquid.
|
|
|
|
In reply to Post #38
Lol I doubt I've solved much but one thing I'm absolutely certain of is that shelf life baits are a waste of time as a proper food source. I love this kind of stuff and when you consider how quickly some things ferment it does make a lot of sense. I think mark said that the golden time of fermentation is 48hrs to be at peak usage..about the same time as a bag of cell starts to turn.
|
|
|
|
In reply to Post #38
I just bought a bottle of the activator and I will test Bob's idea out. Will make 2 test batches (one with just the cell activator and one with csl, ams some other liquids) and see if there is a difference with my baits after a few days in a bag.
|
|
|
|
In reply to Post #35
My neither 
Interesting thoughts
I will go back to Christians comments though. Mentioned this before about the Mainline activ 8 dumbells when they came out, I thought perfect to keep a pot in the bottom of the rucksack, shelf life, not at the races compared to the freezer bait for me. Maybe the preservative kills the “activ” edge
Think you may have solved the mystery, it’s fermentation
|
|
|
|
In reply to Post #34
I've always thought that mainline use relatively simple science to create a reaction that is then applied to a pretty simple food source which with excellent promotion is a surefire winner
|
|
|
|
In reply to Post #34
I think we are discussing the activ element again
|
|
|
|
In reply to Post #33
As ever I've got a different angle (that's probably wrong) but regarding sugars and yeasty type foods under water I've started thinking that by massively promoting lakebed bacterial activity with the introduction of sugar and food for bacteria, the levels of multiple enzymes secreted by those bacteria could in effect turn a simple sugar/yeast feed into a super food that's very easily digested. Obviously this would take some time to happen unless that process has already started before being introduced, similar to the old white spores on activ 8....mind you, I could well be talking out of my Arris as I'm no scientist
|
|
|
|
|
So are we saying that there is some genuine secret recipe science magic in the much maligned Cell after all?!
|
|
|
|
In reply to Post #32
Fascinating stuff. Sugars and yeasts, underwater, perfect for anaerobic conditions too. Maybe carp are just piss heads and like a bit of ethanol in their lives lol, or maybe this is the real reason for the attraction with fermenting baits 
I have out of interest looked at a few brewers super yeasts and some are quite temperature tolerant, since one of your previous posts lol
|
|
|
|
In reply to Post #30
Lol,it's good to keep the grey matter ticking over . That's interesting thinking about utilising carbs in low oxygen levels  .I guess when you consider the amount of commercial fisheries that must be borderline non existent d/o levels then a bait that's easier to digest with energy provided from lipids and a lower protein source requiring less energy to digest is a winner  ?..As for phytase, wasn't that supposed to make the "cereals" more digestible via better uptake of potassium?...
Edit. As for amylase, it's easy to use as it works in varying pH as well as wide temp band dependent on type of amylase. As long as the starch is gelatanised then itll turn well
|
|
|
|
In reply to Post #29
Truth is I have no idea trial and error might tell you something, a test mix with just the activator and no other liquid additives and one with them all, mix, boil, freeze and then thaw out in an airtight polybag and see if they sweat up the same over a couple of days. Might show you something.
|
|
|
|
In reply to Post #28
Fermentation = Ethanol.
Goldfish and carp metabolize carbs differently than other animals when oxygen is scarce. The creatures convert these carbs to ethanol, which they expel from their gills. This means the lactic acid does not build up in their bodies, allowing them to survive in the low oxygen environment. Wonder if this is the real reason for the attraction, as well as a free meal 
The Mainline mystery continues
I’m guessing fermentation is far easier to produce consistently in a freezer bait than controlling an enzyme. I remember the old grange thread and it claimed Phytase was the enzyme used, and then the CSL
You always get me thinking Lincs
|
|
|
|
In reply to Post #27
In this mix (as you know Bob), i use brocacell, keramine, fructose, csl and a vanilla extract (alcohol + sugars) and a stevia sweetner. Do you think that mix will profit from that liquid then?
|
|
|
|
In reply to Post #27
So I guess the reaction is one of a fermentation type which as you say won't happen with preservatives. So if we had a basemix that could promote sugar production and add a yeast to feed bacteria/wild yeasts as well as being nutritious to carp and a liquid that could trigger the production of sugar via amylase then we could be half way there?
|
|
|
|
|
I read, or heard a comment somewhere that mainline cannot make a shelf life version of the original cell because the "stabilising" chemicals stop the reaction within the bait once the activator is added. This is probably why they say don't add other liquids many (most?) of which contain preservatives.
|
|
|
|
In reply to Post #25
If using micronised maize with the amylase you end up with an almost corn sweet tasting liquid. Trying to roll a sugary solution into a bait is a sticky nightmare unless it happens when it's heated!! I'm guessing here but with the inclusion of celmanax you could have quite a potent mix of "attraction"?
|
|
|
|
In reply to Post #24
This is the stuf I mean, by breaking things that should work in a specific way....
|
|
|
|
In reply to Post #13
Mozzi, could that odd texture be created with the use of amylase in the cell liquid to hydrolyse a % of the micronised cereals. I've done that before and ended up with an almost cake like consistency with the increased maltose level.
|
|
|
|
In reply to Post #22
I have lots of sugary ingredients in it and some pdf.
|
|
| | | noj | | Posts: 11459 | | | Social photographer... | |
|
In reply to Post #20
You could write what I know about bait on the queen’s forehead on a stamp… but if the active part of cell is just a yeast then adding anything salty (a good percentage of ingredients I’d have thought) you could stop the activity. Sugary additives you could surely go to town?
|
|
|
|
In reply to Post #19
They'd be ruined
|
|
|
|
In reply to Post #16
Hi,
What I mean, is this: they state: 'Once combined, the Cell becomes ‘Active’ giving off highly attractive and powerful feeding signals to the carp.
We do not recommend the inclusion of any other flavour or attractors to be added at the mixing stage, as these will detract from the effectiveness of the bait itself.'.
I get from that that they don't advise using other liquids, rendering the cell activator useless or inactive or whatever. I didn't mean a fruity flavour doesn't fit a fishmeal bait.
|
|
|
|
In reply to Post #18
Yer but just think if thay did
|
|
|
|
In reply to Post #17
funny, bloodworms etc dont taste of strawberries 
|
|
|
|
In reply to Post #16
I do remember catching carp a few years ago on fishmeals with strawberry flavor , and the bait was not red, carp don't care what we think, I wonder if a red pineapple bait would work,
|
|
|
|
In reply to Post #15
I’d ignore that advice personally, you can add anything to virtually anything. Although not complimentary to our noses, fish hydros would be equally effective on a nut basemix
|
|
|
|
|
I do wonder if the cell activator is worthwhile. Mainline state you mustn't add any other liquids. It adds 1,5 pound to a kg of bait and if it's just celmanax with a coconut flavour,...... Hmmmm, not too sure
|
|
|
|
In reply to Post #13
All these fancy names for a simple product. Everythings either active, activated or hydrolized
|
|
|
|
In reply to Post #8
Soy based milk replacer as opposed to milks I THINK but can’t be 200%.
Certain contains a lot of binders over never known a bait like it, it’s got a weirdly firm sponge like texture, I only know two high levels ingredients that do that
|
|
|
|
In reply to Post #11
Okay thanks Darko!
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Does anyone have experience with the cell activator? Is it really a liquid food and does it give a coconutty smell to the bait?
|
|
|
|
|
I have never looked at the Cell activator but didn't someone say its basically Celmanax? If it is then save your money and just buy Celmanax at 15-30ml per kg of base mix
|
|
|
|
In reply to Post #7
It wouldn't be difficult to make a very similar basemix very cheaply...a lot of basic binders, micronized cereals, bit of milk etc and you wont be far off
|
|
|
|
|
When you add up the liquids,basemix and eggs is it really worth doing.The price of decent bait now seems to make it alot of hassle for not much saving or am I missing something
|
|
|
|
In reply to Post #2
Cell activator with aabaits tiger nut base mix works very well
|
|
|
|
In reply to Post #2
I wouldn't skimp on the basemix buddy. If you want it on a nut base then Trent baits Active nut would be ideal and good value.
|
|
|
|
In reply to Post #1
A mate of mine has rolled and sold to friends a tiger nut base, with added robin red and spices with the cell activator for years and it catches fish everywhere, I use it through the winter months with added liquid liver and it’s brilliant, can’t fault it, lovely red colour too that stands out on the silty lakes I fish.
|
|
|
|
In reply to Post #2
I wouldn't worry about the coconut. I have used the activator in the past using a bird food / milk / nut type mix. It worked well in conjunction with a little scopex, black pepper EO and a small amount of brocacel yeast.
|
|
|
|
Mainline cell does well at my local lake and I'd like to get into making my own boilies, is the base mix that important when using the cell activator or could i use a cheaper alternative based off coconut?
Also is it worth splashing both multi stim and meta mino into the base mix or not?
|
|
