|
|
|
|
In reply to Post #98
Thanks for that, I've read all of those papers and some are quite conclusive but some not so.... I'll go on the basis that it's a winner.
|
|
|
|
In reply to Post #97
Pmsl, I'll make sure I put everything up in a simple step by step guide for everyone to follow...
|
|
|
|
In reply to Post #87
Just for some clarification for now https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S0378111918308576
I will dig out a simpler and more expansive piece in due course.
|
|
|
|
In reply to Post #96
If you don’t give us the A-z of what your doing, I predict a riot, and I’m going to start it 
 
|
|
|
|
|
Are we going to run a book to see how long it is until the thread gets pulled
|
|
|
|
|
It’s been at least 6 months since a major bust up and banning in the bait forum, welcome back one and all I say
|
|
|
|
In reply to Post #91
Mmmm...... Same name as per the old FW forum, black forum, knows about enzymes, mentions the Pete B mix, Kent as domicile, etc, etc etc......
And the giveaway is your writing style is remarkably the same as DC too.....
In this case, two plus two does not equate to root pie...
Welcome back anyway, er, Wayne...
|
|
|
|
In reply to Post #92
No......Thankfully. However, say my name very fast, Wayne Cole and you get virtually the same result!
|
|
|
|
In reply to Post #91
At least your second names not king.
|
|
|
|
In reply to Post #89
DC as in Washington Mr Witch? Or do those letters refer to something else?
My Initials are WC as in toilet if those are indeed what you are referring to? My youth was spent being called sh1thouse for obvious reasons. There are times when you have to question your parents intelligence or their warped sense of humour!
|
|
|
|
In reply to Post #89
Was thinking the sameeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee mateeeeeeeeeeee haha
|
|
|
|
In reply to Post #84
You sure, Mr Moo?
Very familiar name from another forum, eh???
DC....
|
|
|
|
In reply to Post #87
Ah yes, so much better when they are your own and not just spoon fed to you. Makes it so much more satisfying does it not?
Not all of us have access to professors and bio chemists. My Late grandfather always said that you will always remember and cherish your results through perseverance and hard graft rather than it being handed to you on a plate, as when information is gained or obtained by the latter, it is often forgotten.
Nothing wrong with a nudge tho My friend!
|
|
|
|
In reply to Post #86
I'd certainly appreciate some feed back on the receptors  .. It could really take me towards the right direction. Omg, I've had some brilliant ideas over the years (mostly rubbish) but if you don't try something new then we'll never move forward.
|
|
|
|
In reply to Post #85
Best way......
Took quite a long break from these, but like you say, you get snippets that provoke further investigation that can be gold dust at times. Few and far between, yet worth putting your head above the parapet even if you do get the odd ricochet from an acid tongue or five. Oh and on the receptors front i will need to go through my dusty old files for this although I am sure I have had this conversation with Mark Mckenna years back!
Nice thread this one chaps.
Thanks
|
|
|
|
In reply to Post #84
This is why I've always tended to keep a low profile, just poking my head above sometimes to "test the waters". I don't mind a bit of hot headed chat if it gives up a few clues but no point in looking for a fight.
|
|
|
|
In reply to Post #78
Oh god no. I dabble, nothing more. 
Nice cryptic on the nuts Viking. I get you both there.
Get the right combo in these Hydros and than can be quite the game changer. Others would have you believe otherwise, usually those that have a commercial gain. I have noticed people being pushed out and also threatened and intimidated on certain forums. Worse than hot dog wars. Takes all sorts I suppose. Let me know if i can assist you in your search for a few enzymes. Happy to help certain folk rather than the knockers
|
|
|
|
|
Something else that I've not 100% confirmed but hoping one of you lads might know is whether carp have taste receptor t1r1, 2 or 3? Most of my thoughts are geared towards the fish having these receptors, otherwise I'm really pissing up the wrong tree lol
|
|
|
|
In reply to Post #81
Lol, could be 
|
|
|
|
In reply to Post #80
Are we going nutty now?
|
|
|
|
In reply to Post #79
The Asta is going to have an impact but have another look, there's a compound that also links to some of the best ever hookbaits... Also plentiful in prov 66 amongst others that never gets looked at
|
|
|
|
In reply to Post #75
Agree on the krill. I believe the astaxanthin work as an attractant too. Probably all or at least many carotenoids.
|
|
|
|
In reply to Post #76
Lol I'm a skint home roller with a scientific interest so ordering more than I need is a non runner. Are you more of a commercial bait maker?
|
|
|
|
In reply to Post #76
I haven't but I should imagine it's pretty good lol. Are you talking about the compounds that iirc the seas birds can smell from miles away that's also soluble?
|
|
|
|
In reply to Post #75
Funny you should mention Krill.......
Have you tried it in its frozen form rather than in its fish meal sawdust form? It has some wonderful components within its make up that tend to be overlooked yet have a huge impact on the products effectiveness. Asian enzyme suppliers give you far more bang for your buck. $50 dollars freight will be the highest price and around $6 per kilo for most products, it will, if stored airtight in a fridge last you at least 18 months.
|
|
|
|
In reply to Post #74
Yes mate defo more to it than just making a hydro, although as Viking said some already have volatiles loaded in them. With the correct mix of aa's and volatiles it's my belief that we can make the rolls Royce of hydros... No mean feat and requires testing... As for the enzymes, I buy mine on the high street if that helps. Krill is a classic example of the right volatiles to signal a protein source which imo is the reason why it's such a good addition.
|
|
|
|
In reply to Post #72
It would appear that there is more to this Synergy aspect than meets the eye......
China will sell you smaller samples, however it would appear that India are atm more accomodating.Whether or not convid has anything to do with it I am unsure. There are an array of Complex feed enzymes for agriculture that will do the jobs intended with quite a broad spectrum Ph and with efficient working temperatures of 45-55 degrees. Remembering that most milks and fish meals are around Ph 6 you would be advised to get enzyme samples of Acid and neutral Ph...
|
|
|
|
In reply to Post #72
I am absolutely with you on adding volatiles.
It seem to lift any hydro, at least the ones that is not high in them on themself, like the old krill hydro.
|
|
|
|
In reply to Post #69
It'll blow the lid off a bottle pretty quick and redecorate the kitchen . One thing I will say about the vwg is that imo on its own it doesn't pack as much of a punch until its matched with another component. I'm not going to spell it all out for everyone but I'm more than happy to chat about this kind of stuff. I'd be interested to move towards volatiles as complimentary additions and what they bring to the party?
|
|
|
|
In reply to Post #70
Hi Scozza,
it is industrial enzymes, I get them at work so can't really expand. it is bought in 25 litre cans.
But it is different proteases.
|
|
|
|
In reply to Post #69
Time to move on then
What Enzymes are you using, who are you buying them from
|
|
|
|
In reply to Post #67
Greg: Read the thread as mentioned.
Scozza, not putting any bait down, just informing the fella on the ways of the forum.
I agree that the thread is excellent.
Just made my own gluten hydro this week, using different enzymes but result was pretty good.
It started fermenting after 4-5 days and got a bit gassy.
|
|
|
|
In reply to Post #66
How is tcarper a racist think you just like stiring the pot i have noticed that on a few posts that you try to get him to bite all the time everyone is entitled to say things on the posts it is a forum after all bit below the belt labeling him racist 
|
|
|
|
In reply to Post #66
Why don’t you just stick to the topic Viking instead of trying to put bait down?
It’s a good thread this, interesting, everything what’s good about this section. I don’t think anybody wants t spoiling?
|
|
|
|
In reply to Post #64
Amazing how angry some people can get over bait eh?
Read the thread on Garlic Hemp.
Also amazing how that little racist TCarper gets away with it
Better people has been banned from the forum for much less.
|
|
|
|
In reply to Post #3
Hi mate
How many grams of your enzyme mix are you using per liter of wet goods for best enzyme reaction?
|
|
|
|
In reply to Post #60
Hi Lincs
Did you do each separately, or use both together? Great result BTW.......
I spent the evening going through some of the longer bait threads and saw a distinct pattern forming of those who were/are anti tank testing. Blimey, certain people get so god damn personal at times I am actually shocked to the core! So much for a leisurely past time eh? Good job this isn't the USA or there would be law suits left right and centre.
Enjoy the sunshine.
|
|
|
|
In reply to Post #59
I agree. It is just another tool.
You can hardly write something off after a tank test but you can find something interesting.
Good to hear the hydrolysate is doing the job!
I need to get me some liver.
|
|
|
|
In reply to Post #60
Brilliant 
|
|
|
|
In reply to Post #59
Similar thoughts to me mate
|
|
|
|
|
Anyway, an update on my findings. I had a day session on a local lake with my baits again heavily glugged in 2 hydros vwg/liver. My results again were very instant and long lived.. 10 fish in a few hrs.. To give it a bit more of a test I gave some to another lad who was struggling and he mixed 30ml in his stick mix.. Instant result on what was a quiet day for him.... Getting somewhere now I think.
|
|
|
|
In reply to Post #58
Imvho taken tests are very good at deciphering whether a substance is an attractant or a repellent (ive had a few of these) and yes you can get an idea whether the fish seem "excited" in the tank but the ultimate test is a lake.. Some foods which I've "tested" on pond fish haven't looked good at all yet in a lake they have worked very well... Maybe the aquatic environment of a lake is such a different environment that some baits behave differently, who knows! But you know what, who cares, if it works for you then Brill but if not it's not a drama....
|
|
|
|
In reply to Post #57
Let's not forget Kevin Maddocks, amino acids and the hair 
You will notice if you hang around and read the old bait threads.
It is usually the same few people who seem to be upset. There is some history with these forum members and some hookbaits that didn't really impress the tank fish.
|
|
|
|
In reply to Post #56
May I ask what seems to be the problem and just why this subject hits so many nerves?
Many people and established bait companies, Baitworks being one, use captive fish for initial response/ acceptance levels. I would imagine that seeing a high or good response from these fish would at least let you know and give you a heads up if the ingredient is readily acceptable, even more so if they go crazy for it. Puzzled 
|
|
|
|
In reply to Post #55
I won't post the videos again as it seem to upset some people
Say no more...
|
|
|
|
In reply to Post #54
Hi Ken,
Yes you are right.
I pumped diluted liquid into the gravel and had the fish digging about for several minutes.
I won't post the videos again as it seem to upset some people
|
|
|
|
In reply to Post #53
In tank testing you can have the carp digging for a pretty long time with nothing but food signal
See my post #40
|
|
|
|
In reply to Post #52
In tank testing you can have the carp digging for a pretty long time with nothing but food signal or even just pure amino acids in a solution.
In this case thou I am sure the fish found particles from the hydrolysate as it is pretty crude.
|
|
|
|
In reply to Post #51
Must be something there that has kept them rooting mate. Wouldn’t expect them to hang around without getting something back from it myself 
|
|
|
|
In reply to Post #46
Hi Scozza, missed your post earlier. Basically just thick liquid, but there was probably the odd bit and piece of soy bean as I had a very coarse meal.
The bottom was covered with some sort of short grass-like weed over silt and this was all dug up and floating about.
|
|
|
|
In reply to Post #49
Quite possible:
Yan and Qiu-Zhou [9] proved that the addition of 0.4%, 0.8%, and 1.2% glutamate to feed of juvenile Jian carp (Cyprinus carpio var. Jian) resulted in higher live weight, improved feed conversion, increased body length and intestinal weight, and increased intestinal enzymatic activity. According to the authors, these beneficial effects were due to glutamate, which is a precursor of nucleotide biosynthesis in rapidly dividing cells and source of energy for enterocytes.
|
|
|
|
|
I'll be pursuing this with great interest for sure and I hope it's the beginning of something good. Viking, thats a great combo of liquids and I wonder whether the glutamate from soya has a more far reaching effect than just ffaa? I've got a few other ideas that I'd love to look at but I think for now the hydro experiment will keep me busy
|
|
|
|
In reply to Post #47
A mix of shrimp/soy/wheat this was.
With some spices and essential oils and a couple of other bits added.
But just the straight up hydro show a lot of promise.
|
|
|
|
In reply to Post #43
Now that's encouraging for sure.....
Viking, what hydro have you been toying with if you don't mind me asking?
Thanks.
|
|
|
|
In reply to Post #44
The bottom was ripped to bits the day after.
That’s interesting, I wouldn’t have thought they would have hung around if there was nothing to satisfy them other than a liquid attractant, was this over bait out of interest or just a liquid?
|
|
|
|
In reply to Post #43
I guess you need a few months on it and on other waters but it sounds like a winner so far
|
|
|
|
In reply to Post #41
seem you got it right!
I poured a couple of litres of my own (mixed) hydrolysate on a shallow spot on a lake here last week. The bottom was ripped to bits the day after.
|
|
|
|
In reply to Post #42
Ah yes good point, although I will add that I know the swim well and historically the left side does more fish that the right hence my choice of seeing if that changed... Which it did in some style.
|
|
|
|
In reply to Post #41
Interesting
I would try them the other way round next time, if the left hand rod does the damage a eureka moment 
|
|
|
|
|
Back to the lake for another tester session last night but this time using saturated baits. To gain more of an idea I baited the left of the swim with a plain bait and the right with the saturated... Results were conclusive to the point I reeled the left rod in as the right was going mad!! Now this is no hard water and I'd expect to catch 3 or 4 in an evening on 2 rods but I had 9 on 1 rod... I think I know how they were so triggered so will re try next time just incase it was a weird 1 off.
|
|
|
|
As I am sure Viking has found when doing his tank tests carp respond readily to liquid attraction (of the right kind!).
I would often test liquid attractors by squirting a sample (either neat or watered down) onto the surface over carp sheltering under the tree cover on Salamander, Rashleigh, Waldon, Savay and elsewhere. Given the 'right' liquids the response was instant and they would ofter appear to follow the attraction down through the water table as the liquid sank. If there was bait with or without the test liquid they would invariably feed, and even if no bait was present they would appear to feed, grubbing in the lake bed etc.
Food for thought. Sadly my old bones prevent this activity these days.
|
|
|
|
In reply to Post #37
Hi Lincs
I would have thought the initial disturbance on entry was the cause of the fish doing the off. What sort of time was it before they ventured back and was there any other bait in the vicinity?
Edit...... Sorry, just went back and read the 30 mins before the return. Obviously dependent on the area if it was on the end of a wind and depth the dissipation in the water would i suspect have been quite wide spread. Their reaction after that time could also have been due to the chops that had been previously munched on having been broken up and the diffusion from these coupled with the reception from the previous introduction of the liquid.
Thanks.
|
|
|
|
In reply to Post #35
It is not likely in my opinion, but you never know. I would guess they just got scared off.
But you just have to keep testing I guess
|
|
|
|
In reply to Post #36
Quite possibly mate, perhaps I got a bit over excited at the thought of the fish going nuts on impact .. I'll be doing a bit more experimenting later..I've got some baits that have been glugged in it and then dried to create a crusty coating so that's my next step
|
|
|
|
In reply to Post #35
Thinking exactly that myself with the citric?
Sounds like you dropped it straight onto the fish though? maybe just a natural reaction?
|
|
|
|
In reply to Post #34
Maybe the acid was a bit much?
|
|
|
|
In reply to Post #33
I have never really experienced overload with just a hydrolysat, but never tried wheat or liver.
|
|
|
|
|
Bit of an update on the gluten/liver hydro. I had a few hours on a local club lake and got a good few fish going on straight boilie chops fished In a shallow margin and then added about 50ml of neat hydro via a baiting spoon. Initial reaction was everything left the swim a bit sharpish but after about 30 mins or so they came back with a vengeance.. My initial thought was that I'd overdone the amount and put way too much signal in the water, kind of a sensory overload but once enough had washed away they were on it well.... I'm back out again this evening so will dial the amount back to 20ml and see what happens.
|
|
|
|
In reply to Post #31
Certainly will mate... I'm out for a day session this week so hopefully will have something decent to report
|
|
|
|
In reply to Post #30
Understood, I was talking about the boilie boiling process. You will have to keep us updated and let us know how you get on with it mate. I would be really interested to hear?
Its got me thinking 
|
|
|
|
In reply to Post #28
Just to add, it's not boiled so still retains a lot of enzymatic activity and hasn't boiled out any of the nutrients and the boilies are only skinned to maximise everything
|
|
|
|
In reply to Post #28
Interesting you should mention that, the gluten hydro is very "heavy" and sinks like a brick! Whereas the liver is more of a clouder. I had an evening session last week and a spod full of the hydro certainly got something going and had the carp digging up the mud/silt for quite some time, a reaction that I hadn't previously seen on the lake. I'm also fishing a fenland river this year so hoping to use it as a heavy liquid to drift slowly down the river in the lower levels.
|
|
|
|
In reply to Post #27
Must admit mate you may have something very potent and different of your hands there!
Guess it makes total sense to have it in the bait but 1/2 pint of that on the lakebed that has not been through the boiling process is getting me excited lol
|
|
|
|
In reply to Post #26
A bit of both mate. My original thinking was to use the hydro gluten as a separate soluble protein source but having read what the other lads have put I'm now thinking of a gluten/liver combo to widen the aa profile and have the taste effect from the liver. The thinking of the gluten was to utilise the glutamate which is pretty high in wheat as by my thinking its pretty attractive to carp. You'd laugh, but the basemix is a very old school one that I've been having a lot of success with and the addition of the hydros is there to make them as effective as possible...
|
|
|
|
In reply to Post #25
Same here
Out of interest are you planning on using it in your bait or as a glug
|
|
|
|
In reply to Post #24
I'm always happy to share my thinking mate, there's always someone who knows more than me and I always hope that the help can go both ways.
|
|
|
|
In reply to Post #22
Some thought provoking reading there Lincs, nice that you share it
Hope it works for you
|
|
|
|
In reply to Post #22
Without question it will be more expensive. Roughly a 30-33% return of powder to each kilo of Fresh Liver used so your raw materials alone are , with the liver at least ,3 times more. Stability i would imagine of the finished product and longevity would i suspect be better. All trial and error i suppose. It's how the inquisitive learn i guess. Will have to try me a few batches and report back in due course.
Thanks.
|
|
|
|
In reply to Post #21
I'm at the beginning of this journey so it's nice to chat and get some new ideas . I should imagine you would get a better quality product using the liver powder with its iirc better protein % but that's gonna be a more expensive way to do it I should think?
|
|
|
|
In reply to Post #20
Un-defatted is the way to go for personal use.
I am wondering what the difference would be in an effective hydro between the pureed version and by using the equivalent of actual Beef Liver powder?
Thank you for your time and answers. That has got the brain going .
|
|
|
|
In reply to Post #19
Because I make it in a heat sealed pouch, if I heat the finished product to 65c then in theory it will sterilise the mixture until its opened. With the addition of citric it, as you said help somewhat. I have considered adding maltose from maize conversion to add a di saccharide source but haven't got that far with it just yet. I've also considered different acids but wanted to play it safe with citric to see what happens and so far I'm quite happy with the finished product. There are still plenty of bits in the mix, mostly sinews that aren't enzyme friendly but these are left in as I don't want to miss out on the nutrients available from the liver..
|
|
|
|
In reply to Post #18
I would imagine the Citric acid will preserve your Liver hydro to some extent. What sort of shelflife are you getting with that? Refrigerated No doubt?
Would a high sugar infusion not be beneficial also? One, to help with the taste aspect and secondly to aid preservation?
Being a flesh product and although being subjected to hydrolysis I would have thought that you would need something more than citric, however you could up the citric levels whilst infusing with say certain invert or bulk natural sugars.
|
|
|
|
In reply to Post #17
Sorry, that reply was somewhat rushed. The oven is indeed set to its lowest setting 60c which is ample to give maximum enzyme activity to achieve hydrolosis.
|
|
|
|
In reply to Post #16
That's very interesting. May i ask what you are achieving via use of the halogen oven?
Not knowing the temperature settings on those ovens, i am fascinated what this does for your Hydro? Sorry, I must have read that wrong. The oven is to get it to the working temps. Blame it on too much son today.
Thanks.
|
|
|
|
In reply to Post #15
I use raw liver that's put through a mincer turning it to a puree. This is then mixed with a little water, citric acid and enzymes. To keep things user friendly I then chuck the stinky mixture in a heat sealed bag and dropped in a halogen oven on lowest setting until done.
|
|
|
|
In reply to Post #11
I bet the flies are an absolute nightmare when making that.
May i ask if you use liquidised Beef liver or dehydrated beef liver powder when doing your hydro's?
Thanks.
|
|
|
|
In reply to Post #13
Interesting. Taste is very important and underrated imo.
Lot of Maillard reaction end products represented in flavours.
|
|
|
|
In reply to Post #12
Quite frankly, it's based on taste!! With beef at a lower overall protein content over pork and chicken it loses out on ffaa but imo more than make up for it in terms of "taste". I'm also into researching certain volatiles in baits and looking at links between these and taste.. Malliards reaction is a biggie in terms of creating taste with beef ingredients which again imo carp have a receptor for these volatiles..
|
|
|
|
In reply to Post #11
Very nice. Must test myself.
I see a lot of people prefer beef over others, but never looked in to it. What do you base the choice on?
|
|
|
|
In reply to Post #10
Yes mate, I have a nice beef liver hydro which I prefer to the pork or chicken
|
|
|
|
In reply to Post #9
Do you do the liver yourself too?
|
|
|
|
In reply to Post #8
Great info, thanks. The amount of acid in a finished bait must be pretty low and as you said solubility plays a part... I'll persevere with this and perhaps mix the gluten hydro with a liver to broaden the ffaa spectrum.. It's at times like this when a tank can indeed be helpful..
|
|
|
|
In reply to Post #7
On its own in an agar pellet it would probably be a bit too much for best effect (guessing a teaspoon is 5 grams) but in a mixed product I doubt it should be any problem.
If you get over 10-15 gram citric total in a finished product they can be a little skeptic in the tank, but in the real world I guess such a soluble product will wash out quick (guessing here)
|
|
|
|
In reply to Post #6
Sorry for the delay, just got back online... I'm using a teaspoon of citric per 300ml of liquid with success but not sure if you'd consider that excessive in terms of palatability?
|
|
|
|
In reply to Post #5
That look valid to me.
If too much acid is added you seem to get palatability issues so worth testing that.
No idea if it helps neutralizing it or if the salts formed will affect it too.
|
|
|
|
In reply to Post #4
Bromelain, papain and pepsin are all from the protease group but they all do a "different job"... Some of the protein chains in gluten are pretty tough to digest but with the addition of pepsin and a pH shift towards acid with the correct temp it can be achieved.. In theory this should cleave the glutamate and leave it as a very good carp attractor in its own right. Edit.. In this instance I do see tank testing as a good testing ground, easy to see what's a repellent or acceptible
|
|
|
|
In reply to Post #3
I am by no means an expert but testing both in nature and in the t**k says every high protein ingredient benefit from a bit of protease.
|
|
|
|
In reply to Post #2
That's true regarding wheat hydro... I'm using an enzyme mix of papain, bromelain and pepsin with a pH adjustment when it's partially hydrolised.
|
|
|
|
In reply to Post #1
Hydro wheat seems to work.
What enzymes are you planning to use?
|
|
|
|
|
Hi all. I'm I'm into making my own hydros and now thinking of doing a wheat gluten one. My thinking is that with protein circa 75% and glutamate quite prominent the ffaa profile would be impressive and cheap but I've not come across much info so wondering is it worth it?
|
|
