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In reply to Post #29
Then add in that once it goes in the lake a lot of it is diluted down anyway. At those levels you would have to literally put tonnes and tonnes in to se any effect
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A quick google shows there a re high levels of copper in Atlantic krill meal....
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Well just looked at some different cat biscuits which all contain roughly 35 mg /kg of cupric sulfate and people have used cat biscuits for years as surface bait and boilie ingredient without any known issues.
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In reply to Post #31
Haha easier than writing the "original poster" over and over 
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In reply to Post #29
No idea, maybe people should be asking those questions. I only mentioned it because I'd read it before somewhere,here most likely or over on the black forum possibly. I get what you mean about not putting enough in to cause problems, but again going back to peanuts you are well aware I'm sure of the detrimental effect they had in some waters back in the day? One of the best carp baits there is imo, but must be used in moderation or health issues soon arise.
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I like how everyone calls me the “OP”. It sounds like we’re from Line of duty
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In reply to Post #29
I was looking at dog food on a site called all about dog food which gives each dog food a nurtional rating and lists the ingredients and composition of each dog food. I think I may of quoted the vitalin active instead of the original.
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In reply to Post #27
'that old chestnut' comment was because copper comes up often in the same way on here and other groups but the same process can be applied to several minerals or metals i.e. zinc. Why does know one ever ask 'what level of zinc is safe' 
I still would like to know the copper level the OP is talking about more out of curiosity as to what some feeds contain than anything else 
I don't use Vitalin but assume its the original which has 25mg/kg of added copper in the form of Copper Sulphate https://www.vitalinpetfood.co.uk/store/item/original
Copdock Mill layer pellets (as an example) has 18mg/kg the source of which is not listed. https://www.copdockmill.co.uk/our-brands/poultry
They are all VERY low and I can't see how any could be a problem in the amount of bait even a heavy user would put in.
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In reply to Post #27
I think I’m going to stick to vitalin just because it’s easy to ball up. I’m not sure if the CSJ one would be as it’s probably kibble. Vitalin is 5 mg/kg.
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In reply to Post #26
We would, but also if we didnt show at least some caution we could have a disaster on our hands by trying new stuff without a little research first (Peanuts spring to mind) . It's the same with humans ,too much of anything is bad, but a little of some thing's is equally just as bad. I just feel quoting things like "that old chestnut" and then shooting it down is asking for trouble when actually it's not quite so clear as you originally made out with levels etc. As for the op,yes he asked a good and sensible question, but one which he wouldn't have known to ask if I'd not mentioned copper in the first place,so therefore my (rightly or wrongly?)made point was worth making, even if only to get it talked about to prevent anything untoward happening. I'm all for trying new things, but it should be done as safely as possible and I'd guess using stuff with added copper as poultry feed has wouldn't be a great idea imo
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In reply to Post #25
So what bait is safe? I don't disagree with 'better safe than sorry'. The OP has asked that question for exactly this reason.
If the OP comes back and says the alternative feed he has is (random number) 10mg/kg copper that is safe for fish. A few minutes on google will find commercial feeds at twice this level.
The OP has asked a sensible question and is getting some advice based on a few simple facts that low level copper is OK. Maybe for you this is still to risky but that is your choice.
Honestly I suspect some bait we all use is higher than this but as we don't have the number on the packet we fish in ignorance. If we didn't try new things we would all still be fishing with boiled spuds 
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In reply to Post #24
Exactly, better to be safe than sorry
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All comes down to concentrations. Arsenic is a key nutrient but you don't want too much of it do you.
Copper sulphate ecotoxicity - Very toxic to aquatic organisms, may cause long-term adverse effects in the aquatic environment. Do not allow material to contaminate ground water system.
LC50 (kill 50% of the fish) concentration is 0.1ppm in water.
Almost impossible to translate this to the concentration in the food.
But mammals are less susceptible than fish so if in doubt .......
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In reply to Post #21
In a fish what is in the water will end up ingested anyway.
Not saying we shouldn't seek to educate 'newbies' (I hate that term, we all have to start some day) and ourselves alike but I bet many baits we use contain a good dollop of copper but they are not normally written on the packet for us to see and worry about. As an example bread is 1-7mg/kg copper but I have never seen that on the packet so never thought about it until just now.
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In reply to Post #21
You're right. Its not just the carp but molluscs and other waterlife that needs to be thought of. Better to be cautious as it will only take one person to use something that works really well to catch on, loads of people jump on it then find its loaded with something not too good.
5mg per K seems to be the very upper limit in koi feeds
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In reply to Post #20
Yeah I don't doubt that the levels being spoken of wouldn't be achieved in a normal situation. I wonder if it's any different if ingested? Imo it's better to just avoid it to save anything untoward happening, especially as the op is a newbie so possibly unaware of some dangers associated with bait
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In reply to Post #18
I haven't seen what the levels are in the other feed, can the OP give the actual figures off the sack?
I just looked up 'is copper dangerous to carp' and yes lots of stuff comes up but as an example the first article is talking 0.25mg of copper (or copper products) per litre of water. That is a huge amount and obviously a bait with (as an example) a massive 50mg per kg of bait is never going to reach a water level anything like that. You would literally need to be walking across the lake on boilies to get close to that level 
Many of the 'upper market' Koi foods have added copper. Here is one http://www.lagunakoi.com/Nijikawa-Koi-Food/Nijikawa-Growth-Koi-Food-p-759.html
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In reply to Post #16
Well researched Smurf
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In reply to Post #16
Surely trace copper is one thing, but the poultry diet has a way higher level iirc? It's added into their diet for some reason? Like I said on the other thread I couldn't be sure but remember reading something about it before. And a quick look on Google shows lots of articles saying copper is harmful to carp ?
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In reply to Post #16
Cheers mate. That’s a very helpful summary
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LOL, just seen this topic straight after posting this in another topic....seems better to post it here as the title of this topic is more relevant
That old chestnut again, I have found no evidence that trace levels of copper harm/kill carp.Some well known branded 'carp' pellets have tens of mg/kg copper added (probably in the form of copper sulfate). Some whey products and fishmeals have up to 85mg/kg copper content (some of our fishmeal boilies we use must be full of the stuff if we had them analysed).
Carp need 3-5mg/kg of diet of trace copper. They can have a lot more (many hundreds of mg/kg) before it affects them in any bad way. Less affects them just as much but in different ways. Other things are just as dangerous if you look too closely such as zinc, iron, calcium etc.
More details are in 'Trace minerals in fish nutrition Takeshi Watanabe' but the above is a VERY brief summary to just give some facts that do not back up the myth that 'copper is harmful to fish'
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In reply to Post #11
Is a 30 min soak adequate?
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In reply to Post #12
Did you just soak yours for 30 mins
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In reply to Post #11
When I lived down south I had 3 sacks of vitamin in my garage I think they were 11kilo bags for £15,ideal for prebaiting the river itchen as when mixed and items added to it it sunk quick,I use to make them up and freeze a few balls of ground bait and take them to river itchen on a morning before work and put them in took ages to break down but it was all there slowly breaking down during my time at work
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In reply to Post #10
Just soak, no boiling at all required
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In reply to Post #9
In terms of preparation, do I need to soak vitalin for 24 hours and boil it for 30 mins like other particles. Or is it fine to just soak it in warm water for 30 mins?
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In reply to Post #8
Vitalin is very sticky if mixed correctly and will ball up brilliantly. Just make sure it's not too wet or it loses the stickyness. You can add whatever into it and again as long as it's not too wet it will ball up
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In reply to Post #6
If I mix vitalin and goat mix will I be able to ball it up to fire in a catapult? I soaked and boiled goat mix but it didn’t ball up so I had to add flour.
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Don't take the risk, copper is very toxic to fish, more so than for mammals.
Cupric sulphate is copper sulphate and contains 25% copper if you are going to look into the numbers.
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In reply to Post #3
Most dog food floats so just remember that. You really wont get much better than vitalin Tbh and it's so cheap it's not worth the effort trying imo
Yes original, it's a muesli mix. Kibbles usually float
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In reply to Post #2
is vitalin original the best. Is it in kibble form or muesli?
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In reply to Post #2
I probably will, I was just seeing what else was out there for cheaper. It looks like vitalin is cheaper actually. I am still curious about the copper though as all dog foods including vitalin seem to contain it in varying degrees
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In reply to Post #1
Why dont you just use vitalin to save any risk, and to use a known decent bait?
After a quick look, I think that stuff will float too
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Ive been trying to find a vitalin alternative for groundbait and I came across a dog food called CSJ champ adult which has some good ingredients like maize and salmon oils in but it has cupric sulphate pentahydrate at 27 mg/kg which I believe to be copper. Is this too high a level of copper for carp?
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