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In reply to Post #41
That's my plan to be honest Mark. The longer I fish the venue the less of a problem this should be as hopefully I'll get a reasonable understanding of the bottom in various areas. The main reason for this was around my first year where I anticipate moving a fair amount on to showing fish and probably in to new swims/areas.
That being said I fished a longer session there for the first time on Friday (24 hours) and decided to sacrifice the start of the session using the lead. 1 hour late, 65 kilos of weed and no clear spots! PVA bags did their job though as managed to land a small one to get off of the mark
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In reply to Post #43
That's what I was thinking too, especially when you consider that the line will be stretched when it gets nicked therefore making it thinner
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In reply to Post #39
‘’If the 15lb line is nicked say a quarter of the way through, you still have around 12lb of breaking strain.
Basically that damage is proportionate to the strain.’’
I don’t agree with that , I’ve found once a mainline is ‘nicked’ it can tear from that point and will rip apart , the strength is gone from the line if it’s been damaged , I’ve pulled line 15lb 0.38 between my hands where it had a small nick and parted like cotton not long ago
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In reply to Post #39
The reason for leadcores use was it wasn't monofilament line so offered an advantage at the time, through it's use the other benefits came to light, weight, abrasive & anti-tangle qualities etc.
I used it extensively in the very early nineties to great effect in a way Hyperloop is saying, strong and solid as I possibly could but once many were using it I stopped, like many aspects of our angling by the time it filters down not much thought is given to the reasons for using something.
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In reply to Post #23
If you are not able to have a quick lead about in some areas just to get an idea of whats out there then your probably better off just fishing solid bags at shows.
Maybe just before you leave have a lead about the area where they have been showing and gradually build a picture of the areas they use/like/feed for future use.
Not sure how a leader will help in the way your fishing until you understand a bit more about the situation you face, possibly a little section at the lead end to take the strain when playing fish if using a rotary rig?
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| | | noj | | Posts: 11459 | | | Social photographer... | |
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In reply to Post #39
You won’t be putting ‘extreme pressure’ on knots playing a fish.
Use a set of scales a few rod lengths away and bend into it as you would a fish, Doubt it’ll exceed about 6lb as energy is lost to negative leverage and absorption of the blank and stretch of the mono.
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In reply to Post #38
I'm like you, I don't buy the fluorocarbon thing either.
I have looked in clear water at fluorocarbon line above the lakebed, you may not be able to see the fluorocarbon itself, but over a gravel and sand bottom, you could see a blurry line shadow moving in the wind and surface chop.
I think I know where the leadcore protection came from, I've been carp fishing for 30 years😱, and I I found that with helicopter set-ups, a hooklink swivel running on the mainline could wear through and abrade it.
The answer back in the early 1990's was to use a leader or tubing to protect the mainline, Tim Paisley mentions both versions in his book Big Carp.
Then along came Leadcore Flyline. The protection that provided, but it was thick, as it would be when used for fly fishing.
Then somehow, and I think it was through Terry Hearn, on Yateley, he was fishing standard and ring swivels on helicopter rigs and discovered the same about abrasion, so started using the current versions of braided leadcore.
However as we have 'progressed', there are various heli beads that allow us to fish naked, from the original Cox and Rawle beach beads (if you do decide to try this link, do NOT glue them, and have the open bead nearest the rod tip) to other dedicated carp brands. Some can be fished with leaders, others not.
Obviously I don't like leadcore, I think my dislike is well commented, and think the safe length it can be used at is no more than 6inches, 150mm. In which case why use it at all when we have the helibeads as mentioned above?
At any range above 40-50 metres the line by the end tackle will be running along the lakebed, the secondary supposed reason for leadcore.
The bans on leadcore at various fisheries are well known, from Keith Moors in France to others in UK, and I personally think it should be accepted as banned by all anglers.
I definitely agree mono can be damaged, but I think many would be surprised how damaged it can get and still land a fish.
If the 15lb line is nicked say a quarter of the way through, you still have around 12lb of breaking strain.
Basically that damage is proportionate to the strain.
I was fishing at Ardleigh when I hooked a fish that ran around a buoy chain. I was on my leadcore setup, yet it was the mainline that was rubbing against the chain. Around 10metres of line was fragged, shaved by rust steel and whatever was on the chain. The carp was only 18lb but it was landed.
I honestly don't know how often we get broken off well above the lead in weed, I personally think this is where our knots go, no matter how well tied. I'm not saying it doesn't happen, as lilies can have some rough tough stalks and roots and mussels and snails causing abrasion on the line.
I know in my irresponsible or maybe unknowledgeable past, I wasn't sure how to play fish through snags, weed and lilies, so ended up pulling for a break when they got stuck totally. I'm sure that it was the knot that gave, by the 'curly wurly' and flattened end that was left. I believe a line broken on the mainline tends to be a straight 'stretched' snap, and the line is still circular.
That last little bit of line near the lead, definitely the most damaged, from the run ring running up and down it, the lead hitting or rubbing on it, to the extreme pressure we put on the knot every time we play a fish.
My view of that is to check it regularly, although again I agree a leader can reduce the damage, or more correctly, take more abuse.
Even with that, we should be checking our knots and that last little bit of line near the end tackle anyway.
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In reply to Post #35
Top post Nick... it’s nice to see someone proving their points instead of throwing their toys out of the pram because someone disagrees with them.
I don’t buy into the fluro being invisible thing. I really don’t think it’s important, especially in weed where you could get away with using 100lb fluorescent sea line! They’re brushing into weed and debris non stop. If a fish spooks off my line half way to the spot I couldn’t care less. I want the last few yards pinned down and presented, the rest is largely irrelevant.
Rightly said, leadcore lengths are probably seldom long enough to act as a genuine rubbing leader. I still believe that they serve a purpose in protecting the line close to the end game though.
A mono is easily damaged and while it may be more than strong enough at the knot, a small knick will weaken it significantly. A leader would prevent that happening and imo, the last few meters are often the most susceptible to damage.
Good point re. the helicopter. I get very narrow minded with that and haven’t used anything other than a helicopter for YEARS. I forget that this is far from a given.
As much as I don’t agree with leaders being used with clips or inlines I still stand by the opinion that bare line is equally as likely to tether a fish in weed, should it have been cut off.
I still maintain that my sole aim is to prevent cut offs, by using strong gear and I feel that leadcore helps with this, to some extent.
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imo the lengths of leadcore that can be used for heli rigs are not long enough for use as rubbing/snag leaders as invariably the line will get cut above the leadcore like nick says.
Used in sensible situations like hyperloop is saying leadcore and a heli rig and strong mainline gives a very good chance of landing the fish without any line failures
Imo a rubbing or snag leader needs to be longer and when i have needed them on some french venues i have used heavy mono leaders usually slightly longer than casting leaders tied to either 18-20 lb mainline or 40lb braid which has always worked for me.
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In reply to Post #35
Great Post. Should I be fishing here like this is the first question to ask.
Last paragraph says all that needs to be said about leadcore. Must get in a plug for Korda no trace beads, they really are an essential fish safety device.
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In reply to Post #34
Mate,
Nice sensible discussion this, and I think we agree with each other about fish safety, just not 100% on the use of leaders, or maybe we do, but can't quite find the right words.
Like you, I test my knots, I have no worries about them. I know they will hold. I have broken hooks over a snag or rubbing leader to mainline knot going.
It is in weedy or snaggy waters that I don't think leaders should be used, and I do think we sometimes use them without thinking. Fluorocarbon over weed, or with mega tight lines because 'fluorocarbon is less visible' in water, yet it still casts a shadow and can be felt. Add to that the leadcore debate, shockleaders etc.
Mainline strength, you aren't going to use 8-10lb line in weed, you would go up to 15-18lb, many of which while rated at 18lb, will be 20lb plus. A straight through mainline in that strength should not give at all.
If you need higher breaking strain or abrasion resistance to haul the fish out, or protect the line against damage, As you say is it appropriate to be fishing there?
As you and me have both said, with leaders you can prevent 'cut-offs', my experience on the reservoir proves this, but I have a big 'but' from the time years ago when I was using leadcore.
Suffolk Water Park is weedy in places, severe thick weed, but also has a few serious gravel bars, with massive chunks of flint on them.
*
I had a run that as I hit the run the whole lot went, I had been cut-off on the mainline above the leadcore. The fish was left trailing the whole lot. Where does it go with that lot? Rig, leadcore with or without lead. I had been using a leadcore set-up with a running lead.
*
It is this incident that prompted me to start my experiments on leadcore and its safety in fishing.
The result was that leadcore should only be used in a helicopter set up. It should be as short a length as possible. The beads, the rig must be able to be ejected should there be a break off. Do NOT eject the lead.
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In reply to Post #33
I don’t think the knot should ever be the focus though. No knot should give in an angling situation if you are using appropriate gear.
I can’t remember ever having a knot go on me, especially not on the mainline.
If you are having knots fail, or even consider it a worry, then I’d question whether it was appropriate to be fishing in demanding situations like amongst weed... That’s absolute basic stuff, imo. (Not you personally Nick, obviously)
The main reason fish end up trailing line/leaders/anything, imo, is because of cut offs. A leader will go some way to preventing this... far more than straight through mainline ever will.
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In reply to Post #31
I think the strongest component going is straight through mainline.
Any time you add a knot to the equation, like from mainline to leader you are adding an additional weak point, and in my experience, the knot that gives is the closest knot to the rod tip.
Straight through mainline doesn't seem to tangle up if the knot gives, simply because none is trailing; the fish is only carrying a rig, and again, from personal experiences, something I am sure Ken T can back me up on, the hook can be ejected.
Saying that, and Yonny has seen the pics, on the reservoir with some seriously large concrete blocks (not snags), I used a leader to cope with rubbing on the concrete blocks, roadway and culvert drains below water level. I did get in a couple of fish that had run around bridge supports where the 20lb Amnesia leader had been shaved, and also broke a couple of hooks at the bend that I pulled into blocks.
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In reply to Post #31
Totally agree.
The safest rig/set-up is the one that lands the fish imo.
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In reply to Post #26
Got to disagree with that Nick. In a weedy water I want the strongest components going, in order to prevent what is ultimately going to cause the damage, and that’s getting cut off/snapped up. Preventing the problem at source is surely preferable to mitigating once it’s happened?
I’d also argue that straight man line has equally as much chance of getting caught up in weed and tethering as a leader does.
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In reply to Post #26
Interesting thread that.
With the in-line lead point have you ever used the Fox in-line drop off system? I only ask as lake rules mean that I have to be able to drop the lead. Also that with a short rig should work reasonably well in a PVA bag?
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In reply to Post #27
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In reply to Post #27
If that’s what you want to do then go for it it’s a free forum
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Think I need to be polite and start a thread on lead in the environment. Going to join me Framey?
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In reply to Post #16
It's a reasonably weedy venue so want a presentation that's going to give me the highest chance of presenting a fishable rig. I've played about with naked chods but just don't seem to get on with them that well, hence the move to the more traditional chod/leadcore setup
If it is a weedy venue, then personally, I don't think you should use any leader at all, leadcore included.
Any leader that gets broken off stands a chance of getting tangled up in weed and tethering a fish.
In weedy waters for years my go to set-up was an inline lead, zipp or distance shape.
In most cases, the weed would slide over the lead.
To get a fishable presentation, I would put the whole lot in a PVA bag, bait, hook, hooklink and lead along with a load of chops and pellets.
I have included a link to another leadcore thread that may give you a few more points.
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In reply to Post #24
Sorry, still in the dark. Too cryptic for me. Why would I be an EE? and why would that be funny? and finally what has it got to do with lead in the environment?
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In reply to Post #22
EE is a mobile phone company that incorporates orange and t mobile
Hence the lol at the end
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I suppose my next question then is what are my other options for a leader if I don't want to go down the naked chod route? Ideally one where the korda no trace system works?
Again I still see myself in a position where I'm going to be trying to create as least disturbance as possible, fishing over a relatively unknown bottom (apart from the info you get from feeling the lead down etc.) and wanting to maximise my chances of presenting a fishable rig
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In reply to Post #21
The answer to your last question is not difficult but it is quite long. Before I attempt to answer it could you let me know what an EE is as I may inadvertently be one. Lol
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In reply to Post #20
Lead under an oz has been banned since what the late 80’s/90’s
To stop ducks swans etc picking them up
Not sure where the food chain comes into it unless you are an EE lol
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In reply to Post #19
Why anybody wants a lake full of a lethally toxic and persistent
Poison accumulating in the food chain I will never know, but that's another argument
How long will it be before there is a ban on fishing with lead weights?
I find it odd that you cannot shoot lead over water while duck etc shooting, yet you can chuck got knows how many Lbs of lead into the water.
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In reply to Post #16
Yes you can stop a heli safe from ejecting the lead with the collar supplied.
It is not about how you drop the lead. To be safe with leadcore you MUST NOT drop the lead, end of. If lake rules demand you drop the lead don't fish leadcore.
Why anybody wants a lake full of a lethally toxic and persistent
Poison accumulating in the food chain I will never know, but that's another argument
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In reply to Post #16
The venue I’m on doesn’t allow lead core so I’m fishing a naked chod style setup.
I’m using a helisafe from Korda but set not to drop the lead ,(a small plastic collar prevents the lead ejection)
I use 15lb fluro ,a line saver bead on the lead end and a no trace bead above. Due to the stiff nature of the fluro I don’t get any tangles , I use a very short chod section on the hook like a cm, sometimes just a ronnie.
This allows me to fish in 9 ft deep with heavy weed.
Just suffers a bit from line twist so I use a twist buster on it every third cast depending on the range I’m fishing.
Might be worth trying a fluro leader of 20lb ?
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In reply to Post #16
You can yes, but then what's the point of using a heli safe over simply looping the lead on, or using a normal quick clip? Also, leadcore in weed can cause as many problems as it cures, and sticks out like a sore thumb in some situations. You don't need to crash marker floats about, a simple bare lead cast and a drop felt will give you the info you need to be able to judge how to present a bait, or if it's even suatable to do so. I think I've cast a marker float out about 5 times total in the last 10 years and it's not done my results any harm
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In reply to Post #14
I need to check but I think you can negate the drop off component of the heli safe by removing the spring but I need to check that.
I suppose a lot of the developments by Korda etc. were driven by demand. I think there's a lot of people out there that want to fish a heli setup but are fishing venues were the rules (rightly or wrongly) state that you have to be able to eject the lead. Is there an alternative to the heli safe that makes that possible?
The move on to leadcore is very specific to my fishing situation. I'm doing very short (8 hour) day sessions and I want/need to be able to move on to the fish without crashing a marker lead on their head first and therefore not always knowing what I'm fishing over. It's a reasonably weedy venue so want a presentation that's going to give me the highest chance of presenting a fishable rig. I've played about with naked chods but just don't seem to get on with them that well, hence the move to the more traditional chod/leadcore setup
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| | | BRB | | Posts: 1385 |  | |
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In reply to Post #14
One of the problems here is the need of media "experts"to promote rigs. I know we all started once and had to learn but leadcore and other, shall we say, more advanced rig components were things you progressed onto as you gained experience. Now they are available to the new carper from day one, someone who may not have all the knowledge and potential problems clearly understood.
I guess given that you can't go backwards then the likes of Korda readymade rigs is the way to go.
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In reply to Post #7
Nope, the lead acts as an anchor to give the beads chance to be pull off and therefore free the hooklink. No lead, no anchor, no release of beads. As others have said, leadcore or any other heavy leader, should only be used with heli setups with the lead fixed. Those heli safe systems should be removed from sale, or at least adapted so leaders can't be used with them
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In reply to Post #12
Completely agree on the Korda helicopter leaders. All I use these days, top notch and as safe as it gets.
Agree on the newer alternatives. The safety aspects should be just the same as leadcore.
I do think that leadcore will hold kinks and any twists much more than other lines and does not spring or spin free. This does make it potentially more dangerous in my opinion.
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In reply to Post #11
Used properly I don’t see that it’s any worse than a lot of other lead free leader materials. Some of those have breaking strains of 30-50lb and are super abrasion resistant. So just as likely to tether a fish and very unlikely to snap.
I’ve used leadcore for many many years. I always made my own leaders up, but this year I’ve switched to the korda pre-tied helicopter versions. I think they are very very good. They have perfect tiny splices, the weave is tight so not once have I had lead poke through, they are very limp and they come supplied with the no trace bead attached. For someone new to leadcore I strongly suggest you start off with these as you can’t get it wrong. When or if you do start to make your own, this is the standard you should be aiming for to know yours are safe.
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I wouldn't drop the lead on a helicopter rig on any line but especially with lead core. The safety aspect of the rig is completely lost without the lead. With the lead to pull against the fish will quickly end up with just the hook link. I also think that Korda no trace beads are the best and safest to use. They work every time. However you join the leadcore to your mainline, suitable knot or loop to loop, the swivel on the hook link must be able to pass over the loops, knots or anything on the leadcore easily. I believe that 1 metre of leadcore should be max and there should be nothing, including putty on the mainline above the leadcore. Take no risks with leadcore, plenty of alternatives, maybe time we got rid of it.
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I Just saw a clever lead core knot on the farlows angling direct facebook page
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In reply to Post #1
I used to use leadcore, long ago, until I came to the conclusion the risks using it outweighed the positives.
From mainline to leadcore was always needle knotted. The lead end was always spliced.
The only possibly safe setup with leadcore is with a helicopter lead. The lead must NOT be ejected, it has to stay on. It is the lead itself that catches and allows the rig to be ejected.
Do NOT use an inline, lead clip or running lead with leadcore.
Your helicopter beads need to be able to come off over the needle knot, as does the rig.
If the leadcore gets kinked it can trap beads, preventing rig ejection. If the lead inner breaks it can poke through the leadcore weave and trap beads.
My honest opinion is do not use leadcore, (or any leaders) unless the water is weed and snag free.
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I will splice at the lead end and always needle knot at the mainline end.
Whether that be leadless or lead core just to be on the safe side
And will mostly use a Korda no trace bead set up
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In reply to Post #6
Can you explain a bit more on the heli? I get what you mean with the in line (I'm assuming with a fixed lead the fish can use the weight of it to shake the hook), but with a heli would the no trace bead system not ensure that they're only attached to the hooklink? Or do you believe that it needs the weight of the lead to be able to work properly and that the lead would shake prior to the hooklink going over the beads?
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In reply to Post #1
Please dont do that. Using a drop off inline means a fish trailing leadcore in the result of a cut off of crack off, creating a death rig. Same for dropping the lead on a heli with leadcore. Leadcore should only be used with a heli with the lead fixed
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In reply to Post #1
Same as post no4 , I splice loops both ends and then loop on whatever I'm using
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In reply to Post #1
I splice a loop both ends - can loop to loop onto any type of swivel - I use it with heli-safe too.
It means all my leaders are 'universal' - I can use them for any type of set up.
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I'd splice the swivel or fitting to the end normally.
Get yourself one of the fox slicing needles, looks a bit weird but much easier than a gate latch needle IMO.
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In reply to Post #1
You can splice it or just strip a couple of inches of lead out and tie it to the lead, snap link etc. Just a 2 or 3 turn blood knot holds it fine.
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This is going to sound like the most ridiculous question to most people I'm sure but here we go.
I've never used leadcore before (always been banned on waters I've fished) but my new club allow it and it probably needs to become part of my arsenal for the way I'll be fishing (staying agile on day sessions and moving on to the fish).
There's plenty of videos out there showing how to splice the leadcore on to the mainline but I don't think I've seen anything on how you attach the other end? In my case it will probably be to a Korda Heli safe but may also be to a drop off in line lead for pva bags. Is it as simple as removing some of the lead then tying a grinner knot with the outer material?
I'm sure it's really simple and logical just not had to do it before!
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