In reply to Post #59
When I was making my bait there was a bit of fuss with one company marketing 'steamies' heavily, so I gave it a try in the mrs vegetable steamer
I think a lot of people tried it and it didn't really skin the baits but cooked them through, which went against the idea of lower heat affecting the bait less.
Experimenting was a big part of the draw of making my own bait, once I had a mix I was confident in that rolled well I realised I was only saving about a pound per kilo before I factored my own time in, so really it was more expensive than a quality bait with a proven track record.
When I was making my bait there was a bit of fuss with one company marketing 'steamies' heavily, so I gave it a try in the mrs vegetable steamer
I think a lot of people tried it and it didn't really skin the baits but cooked them through, which went against the idea of lower heat affecting the bait less.Experimenting was a big part of the draw of making my own bait, once I had a mix I was confident in that rolled well I realised I was only saving about a pound per kilo before I factored my own time in, so really it was more expensive than a quality bait with a proven track record.
In reply to Post #60
Thank you for that, not really sure what you think I'm going to do with it though. I'm perfectly happy boiling my baits, just like I have since 1989 when I rolled my first lot. Experience will beat theory(science) for me every time
Thank you for that, not really sure what you think I'm going to do with it though. I'm perfectly happy boiling my baits, just like I have since 1989 when I rolled my first lot. Experience will beat theory(science) for me every time
We've had boilies since when, late 70s? They worked from the off and still work. They work for large companies and us home rollers alike, they have stood the test of time.
Now I could believe that a large producer might invest in an oven capable of baking baits and might have space to locate it but a home roller, errh, don't think so, my missus would divorce me if I used the kitchen oven for baking my baits and I'm not thinking of buying one for the shed anytime soon.
Boiling works, it's convenient because it can be done anywhere and it's inexpensive, nobody in their right mind could suggest otherwise.
Now I could believe that a large producer might invest in an oven capable of baking baits and might have space to locate it but a home roller, errh, don't think so, my missus would divorce me if I used the kitchen oven for baking my baits and I'm not thinking of buying one for the shed anytime soon.
Boiling works, it's convenient because it can be done anywhere and it's inexpensive, nobody in their right mind could suggest otherwise.
In reply to Post #1
Some absolute tripe being spouted in this thread
" Boiling relies on convection, Baking relies on radiation as a means to transfer its energy" the efficiency of both can vary widely, but fundamentally its the transfer of energy from heat to boilie which differs/
The data is out there if you spend the time to research it on the web. My personal opinion on bait (and I have very limited knowledge on bait making):- If I was a home roller I would boil, if I was producing large quantities in a industrial way I would use steaming. Baking would be my last choice - it costs a lot to heat air when baking
Some absolute tripe being spouted in this thread
" Boiling relies on convection, Baking relies on radiation as a means to transfer its energy" the efficiency of both can vary widely, but fundamentally its the transfer of energy from heat to boilie which differs/
The data is out there if you spend the time to research it on the web. My personal opinion on bait (and I have very limited knowledge on bait making):- If I was a home roller I would boil, if I was producing large quantities in a industrial way I would use steaming. Baking would be my last choice - it costs a lot to heat air when baking
In reply to Post #64
Bake a potato or boil a potato. Look what finishes first and at a lower temperature.
Case closed?
I just use paste 😊
Bake a potato or boil a potato. Look what finishes first and at a lower temperature.
Case closed?
I just use paste 😊
In reply to Post #64
Cheers and perhaps it's just cheaper and easier to boil them and it's tried and tested so they have stuck with that.
Cheers and perhaps it's just cheaper and easier to boil them and it's tried and tested so they have stuck with that.
In reply to Post #65
Look at what finishes first - are they in a race?
how do you define finish? internal temperature, remaining moisture, remaining dry matter, cell structure, carbohydrate structure, startch leaching?
Think you need to define what you want from your end product before saying what the best way to heat treat it
Look at what finishes first - are they in a race?
how do you define finish? internal temperature, remaining moisture, remaining dry matter, cell structure, carbohydrate structure, startch leaching?
Think you need to define what you want from your end product before saying what the best way to heat treat it
In reply to Post #64
Some absolute tripe being spouted in this thread
You sure, can't see anybody from the non carp section
Something that has always interested me though, how much so called food baits can denature, precisely calculated mixes, boiled, or cooked lol, air dryed, frozen, sometimes for extended periods and defrosted before being air dryed again in some cases
Some absolute tripe being spouted in this thread
You sure, can't see anybody from the non carp section
Something that has always interested me though, how much so called food baits can denature, precisely calculated mixes, boiled, or cooked lol, air dryed, frozen, sometimes for extended periods and defrosted before being air dryed again in some cases
In reply to Post #68
And why is denaturing a bad thing? (I keep saying this and have been for years)
To quote Tamberly Powell, M.S., R.D on nutrition " Once proteins are denatured or uncoiled, then enzymes have an easier time facilitating the breakdown of proteins through enzymatic digestion. Enzymatic digestion breaks the protein into smaller peptide chains and ultimately down into single amino acids, which are absorbed into the blood."
They are talking about human digestion which is a little different to fish but the principles of releasing the AA by denaturing allowing better digestion (and detection ) still holds true to our fishy friends
A balanced protein base will break down into a balanced AA mix
And why is denaturing a bad thing? (I keep saying this and have been for years)
To quote Tamberly Powell, M.S., R.D on nutrition " Once proteins are denatured or uncoiled, then enzymes have an easier time facilitating the breakdown of proteins through enzymatic digestion. Enzymatic digestion breaks the protein into smaller peptide chains and ultimately down into single amino acids, which are absorbed into the blood."
They are talking about human digestion which is a little different to fish but the principles of releasing the AA by denaturing allowing better digestion (and detection
) still holds true to our fishy friends A balanced protein base will break down into a balanced AA mix
In reply to Post #69
Agree about the breakdown. I would love to see some test analysis though from fresh rolled baits that had followed that process if only to put my mind at rest
Now after all that if the AA profile is still very good that's brilliant. I suppose the degradation of the bait regenerates them in a way as they degrade, even after all the above 
Agree about the breakdown. I would love to see some test analysis though from fresh rolled baits that had followed that process if only to put my mind at rest
Now after all that if the AA profile is still very good that's brilliant. I suppose the degradation of the bait regenerates them in a way as they degrade, even after all the above
In reply to Post #56
With any cooking process (or scalding process) its a very simple equation of contact time verses temperature.....the hotter the temperature the less contact time for sealing. The difference with baking to boiling is that the moisture (read that any liquids) would be taken from the bait through baking however boiling would take significantly less out of the bait simply because the transfer medium from Water to air is very easy but liquid to water isn't as there more of an equilibrium.
Steaming (and boiling) are completely different to baking as the high humidity of the steam (and saturated boiling water) inhibits the enthalpy effect on the bait whereas the dry heat of baking increases enthalpy effect and actually 'draws' the moisture out.
In all 3 scenarios you would lose far more liquid additives out of the bait through baking than the other 2 even if all were carried out at the same temperature.
In a nutshell, I am completely with Smurf on this one.
With any cooking process (or scalding process) its a very simple equation of contact time verses temperature.....the hotter the temperature the less contact time for sealing. The difference with baking to boiling is that the moisture (read that any liquids) would be taken from the bait through baking however boiling would take significantly less out of the bait simply because the transfer medium from Water to air is very easy but liquid to water isn't as there more of an equilibrium.
Steaming (and boiling) are completely different to baking as the high humidity of the steam (and saturated boiling water) inhibits the enthalpy effect on the bait whereas the dry heat of baking increases enthalpy effect and actually 'draws' the moisture out.
In all 3 scenarios you would lose far more liquid additives out of the bait through baking than the other 2 even if all were carried out at the same temperature.
In a nutshell, I am completely with Smurf on this one.
In reply to Post #69
When you denature protein it loses some of its amino acids, also since aminos acids are absorbed in the intestines there better absorbed with less “damage” that's why it's beneficial to take enzyme tablets or acidic foods along with protein to aid in digestion and absorption.
I'm pretty sure carp are carnivores which would mean there system is best suited to digestion raw flesh which means no denatured at all because there is no cooking process.
This would also aid (I assume) in detection due to it being more natural ie raw if that makes sense.
When you denature protein it loses some of its amino acids, also since aminos acids are absorbed in the intestines there better absorbed with less “damage” that's why it's beneficial to take enzyme tablets or acidic foods along with protein to aid in digestion and absorption.
I'm pretty sure carp are carnivores which would mean there system is best suited to digestion raw flesh which means no denatured at all because there is no cooking process.
This would also aid (I assume) in detection due to it being more natural ie raw if that makes sense.
In reply to Post #72
I'm pretty sure carp are carnivores which would mean there system is best suited to digestion raw flesh which means no denatured at all because there is no cooking process.
I would imagine that the whole process of denaturing the proteins and the Holy grail of baitmakers sourcing enzymes to faciltate the breaking down of specific peptide chains are done with the main purpose of giving 'their system' a benficial, helping hand...
I'm pretty sure carp are carnivores which would mean there system is best suited to digestion raw flesh which means no denatured at all because there is no cooking process.
I would imagine that the whole process of denaturing the proteins and the Holy grail of baitmakers sourcing enzymes to faciltate the breaking down of specific peptide chains are done with the main purpose of giving 'their system' a benficial, helping hand...
In reply to Post #44
Yup
I found fish meals didn't Often turn into pop ups either when microwaved lol
Yup
I found fish meals didn't Often turn into pop ups either when microwaved lol
In reply to Post #73
You do have a point and I agree. I guess it depends on whether your looking at it from a natural approach or a possible more Optimum approach.
If carp can detect amino acids in the water, the real question is can they detect denatured amino acids or the denaturing of them.
You do have a point and I agree. I guess it depends on whether your looking at it from a natural approach or a possible more Optimum approach.
If carp can detect amino acids in the water, the real question is can they detect denatured amino acids or the denaturing of them.