I try not to comment on things like this...But this subject is something I find very insulting to me personally. Carp anglers are being ripped off wholesale. When SHB first started, I was told we would never get £13 for a tub of pop ups. At the time the most expensive table rolled standard pop up mix pop ups were £4-£5. We were trying to come to market with a completely food based pop up, that HAD to be rolled individually in the palm. Not on a table, BUT INDIVIDUALLY IN THE PALM. There is a VAST difference. Forget materials used, there is a vast difference in what can be produced time wise. Despite what folks said we were able to charge that amount, because it involved a totally different type of quality. There were three hook bait companies. Us, UB Baits & PJPU's.
Fast forwards to now. As already mentioned there are now more hook bait companies than bait firms! Most are selling the same crap table rolled pop ups as back then, but are using our price guides to sell them! Instead of £5 now... They charge £12, off of our backs! In the same decade, ours have gone from £13 to £16 being the most expensive. You do the maths!
I feel a little bad in some ways, because these companies are using our price structures, to sell a vastly inferior product, with a monstrous mark up! And I do feel slightly guilty personally for that, because all these firms looked at us... And thought “we can get that money for something that costs us buttons to make”.
It's not just me who thinks this... Major players in the industry have told me exactly the same thing.
Fast forwards to now. As already mentioned there are now more hook bait companies than bait firms! Most are selling the same crap table rolled pop ups as back then, but are using our price guides to sell them! Instead of £5 now... They charge £12, off of our backs! In the same decade, ours have gone from £13 to £16 being the most expensive. You do the maths!
I feel a little bad in some ways, because these companies are using our price structures, to sell a vastly inferior product, with a monstrous mark up! And I do feel slightly guilty personally for that, because all these firms looked at us... And thought “we can get that money for something that costs us buttons to make”.
It's not just me who thinks this... Major players in the industry have told me exactly the same thing.
In reply to Post #35
If you knew the mark up that people make at those prices, and the lack of labour costs compared to feed bait, you'd feel robbed lol.
The only hookbaits I've seen that genuinely make a difference to catch rates are some proper food ones that are truly hand made and labour intensive. and as they fill a gap in the market without competition they don't need to price competitively so that pricing makes sense.
However I could name you twenty hookbait companys with twenty washed out pink pop ups, why should any of them be over a tenner?
I've seen companies state that they add proper food signal items like GLM, squid addarome, liver etc but these ingredients if added in meaningful amounts mean you'll never get a nice pastel coloured pure smooth bait.
Plus, when you speak about your time, every single person I know who knocks up there few pots of hook baits for the year absolutely loves doing so, its almost ritualistic and its certainly not some intensive task.
If you knew the mark up that people make at those prices, and the lack of labour costs compared to feed bait, you'd feel robbed lol.
The only hookbaits I've seen that genuinely make a difference to catch rates are some proper food ones that are truly hand made and labour intensive. and as they fill a gap in the market without competition they don't need to price competitively so that pricing makes sense.
However I could name you twenty hookbait companys with twenty washed out pink pop ups, why should any of them be over a tenner?
I've seen companies state that they add proper food signal items like GLM, squid addarome, liver etc but these ingredients if added in meaningful amounts mean you'll never get a nice pastel coloured pure smooth bait.
Plus, when you speak about your time, every single person I know who knocks up there few pots of hook baits for the year absolutely loves doing so, its almost ritualistic and its certainly not some intensive task.
In reply to Post #36
I spent a few minutes trying to re-word my answer then found you'd posted lol. you're the one I mention who's labour intensive.
I spent a few minutes trying to re-word my answer then found you'd posted lol. you're the one I mention who's labour intensive.
Matt himself said in the old UB thread that rolling air ball pop ups is a licence to print money, even at £6 a pot. Cork balls and hand rolled are a completely different thing. I don't care what anyone says, if a hookbait has to pop up a size 4 hook for days on end without cork you can't get enough good stuff in a 13mm table or machine rolled ball to warrant anywhere near £12 a pot.
In reply to Post #39
We're agreeing on something! Joss would be so proud of he wasn't currently sobbing with tooth ache lol
We're agreeing on something! Joss would be so proud of he wasn't currently sobbing with tooth ache lol
In reply to Post #38
Thank you for the kind words Mozzie if that was us you're speaking of like you say.
Thank you for the kind words Mozzie if that was us you're speaking of like you say.
In reply to Post #39
He was right! They cost literally ‘pence' to make. Air ball type pop ups were the biggest money spinners for every bait firm at £5-£6 a tub by a LONGGGG WAY. At £12 a tub and more it's literally absolute daylight robbery.
10 air balls can be rolled on a table in the same time as 1 of our palm rolled hook baits. Forget that our ingredients cost VASTLY more being real high grade food... Just on Labour ours should be worth 10 x more right? So we should be selling our hook baits for £120 - £150 a tub?? Of course not that's absolutely stupid. Just as it's absolutely stupid for anglers to be paying £12-£15 a tub for poxy air ball type pop ups.
As you say, you CANNOT get any amount of real food into a 12mm air ball. If you could PJPU's which have incredible buoyancy would have been doing it donkeys years ago. It's impossible and anyone who tells you different is just telling you lies to sell some product. The mix itself has the buoyancy, trying to add real food in any tangible quantities to that equation is not possible.
It's like a car salesman showing you a Ferrari & a Skoda. And trying to convince you that the Skoda is worth as much as the Ferrari. Anyone would just laugh. Unfortunately for the uninformed carp angler that's simply not the case.
He was right! They cost literally ‘pence' to make. Air ball type pop ups were the biggest money spinners for every bait firm at £5-£6 a tub by a LONGGGG WAY. At £12 a tub and more it's literally absolute daylight robbery.
10 air balls can be rolled on a table in the same time as 1 of our palm rolled hook baits. Forget that our ingredients cost VASTLY more being real high grade food... Just on Labour ours should be worth 10 x more right? So we should be selling our hook baits for £120 - £150 a tub?? Of course not that's absolutely stupid. Just as it's absolutely stupid for anglers to be paying £12-£15 a tub for poxy air ball type pop ups.
As you say, you CANNOT get any amount of real food into a 12mm air ball. If you could PJPU's which have incredible buoyancy would have been doing it donkeys years ago. It's impossible and anyone who tells you different is just telling you lies to sell some product. The mix itself has the buoyancy, trying to add real food in any tangible quantities to that equation is not possible.
It's like a car salesman showing you a Ferrari & a Skoda. And trying to convince you that the Skoda is worth as much as the Ferrari. Anyone would just laugh. Unfortunately for the uninformed carp angler that's simply not the case.
In reply to Post #39
Not trying to start an argument but:
Cork has a density of 0.240 grams per cubic cm.
K1 3M glass spheres has a density of 0.125 grams per cubic cm
Other fillers that can be used is under 0.050 grams per cubic cm
Mathematics tell me you can get more food to float with a lighter product, if you can get it to bind.
Not trying to start an argument but:
Cork has a density of 0.240 grams per cubic cm.
K1 3M glass spheres has a density of 0.125 grams per cubic cm
Other fillers that can be used is under 0.050 grams per cubic cm
Mathematics tell me you can get more food to float with a lighter product, if you can get it to bind.
In reply to Post #43
A 12mm finished cork ball pop up is rolled with a 10mm cork ball with 2mm of paste around the outside... Roughly 50% cork to 50% paste. Slightly more cork in fact in reality. Many different grades of cork with different buoyancy's. The best stuff is £250 for 5000. The worst far far cheaper.
Try getting anywhere near those same equations of K1 3M glass spheres into a hook bait equivalent to the cork 😂
If you knew what you were talking about Viking, you would know it's completely impossible to get that glass to bind. There is only a certain amount of glass that can be used for that exact reason 😂 The glass is added to an already buoyant mix to aid buoyancy. Because there's a limit to how much can physically be used.
Don't try and turn this into something between me and you.
A 12mm finished cork ball pop up is rolled with a 10mm cork ball with 2mm of paste around the outside... Roughly 50% cork to 50% paste. Slightly more cork in fact in reality. Many different grades of cork with different buoyancy's. The best stuff is £250 for 5000. The worst far far cheaper.
Try getting anywhere near those same equations of K1 3M glass spheres into a hook bait equivalent to the cork 😂
If you knew what you were talking about Viking, you would know it's completely impossible to get that glass to bind. There is only a certain amount of glass that can be used for that exact reason 😂 The glass is added to an already buoyant mix to aid buoyancy. Because there's a limit to how much can physically be used.
Don't try and turn this into something between me and you.
In reply to Post #43
It's that magic layer on top of the cork ball that makes all the difference though, the attractive shell if you like. Glass, binders etc just don't do it for me....might as well be fishing with a ball of glue.
It's that magic layer on top of the cork ball that makes all the difference though, the attractive shell if you like. Glass, binders etc just don't do it for me....might as well be fishing with a ball of glue.
Come on lads let's not devolve this into another argument as I say Joss has toothache!
With some of the modern stuff you can get a small amount of proper food into an air all pop up however, these mixes have more binders than tge skin of a cornball pop up, which has a water contact surface of pure food bait.
However because it's 2mm thick it's a case of it will wash out quicker.
I don't even like massively buoyant baits myself, I've made a 14mm hookbait hold up multiple 1/0 sea fishing hooks but then literally the only application for it was a chod where I needed it to ride up a long leader.
I think a Ronnie with a 12mm hookbait looks daft and crude and unecessary, I prefer a less buoyant bait with more substance to it personally, preferably over a bed of nice high quality boilies.
There will be counter arguments such as the food value of a hookbait not mattering because it's not injested, or that a lot of modern investigative trigger ingredients don't effect colour etc.
Ultimately what I'm saying is you can't put enough of them in a bright hookbait and maintain the colour or ultra buoyancy, and they selling easy to roll hookbaits at 12/13 quid a time in tiny pots is at best morally speculative.
I have no problem with people selling them for what they are at a fair price. Loads of good options under a tenner.
With some of the modern stuff you can get a small amount of proper food into an air all pop up however, these mixes have more binders than tge skin of a cornball pop up, which has a water contact surface of pure food bait.
However because it's 2mm thick it's a case of it will wash out quicker.
I don't even like massively buoyant baits myself, I've made a 14mm hookbait hold up multiple 1/0 sea fishing hooks but then literally the only application for it was a chod where I needed it to ride up a long leader.
I think a Ronnie with a 12mm hookbait looks daft and crude and unecessary, I prefer a less buoyant bait with more substance to it personally, preferably over a bed of nice high quality boilies.
There will be counter arguments such as the food value of a hookbait not mattering because it's not injested, or that a lot of modern investigative trigger ingredients don't effect colour etc.
Ultimately what I'm saying is you can't put enough of them in a bright hookbait and maintain the colour or ultra buoyancy, and they selling easy to roll hookbaits at 12/13 quid a time in tiny pots is at best morally speculative.
I have no problem with people selling them for what they are at a fair price. Loads of good options under a tenner.
In reply to Post #46
Tell your mate that, not me.
I'm out. I just remembered why it's best for me not to post on anything like this. 😂😂😂
Tell your mate that, not me.
I'm out. I just remembered why it's best for me not to post on anything like this. 😂😂😂
In reply to Post #44
As I said, not trying to start an argument.
It is very well possible to us glass spheres to make a very buoyant bait, if you think a bit outside the box and don't roll them on a table.
If you use other buoyancy aids it can even be rolled on tables as you need just need 20% of the volume of cork to get the same buoyancy.
As I said, not trying to start an argument.
It is very well possible to us glass spheres to make a very buoyant bait, if you think a bit outside the box and don't roll them on a table.
If you use other buoyancy aids it can even be rolled on tables as you need just need 20% of the volume of cork to get the same buoyancy.
In reply to Post #44
Pictures speak for themseves.
Pictures speak for themseves.
In reply to Post #49
Quote... It's funny how you post and your troll turns up.
You see Goose😉
It's boring and it's why it's best I do not say anything on here anymore.
As you all were.
Quote... It's funny how you post and your troll turns up.
You see Goose😉
It's boring and it's why it's best I do not say anything on here anymore.
As you all were.