In reply to Post #17
I read it as sweeteners. The sweeteners are far better attractors than the flavours themselves.
But then if you sell flavours, I guess you are not going to say that, even if you know it. I probably should not have commented. But that statement is simply not true.
I read it as sweeteners. The sweeteners are far better attractors than the flavours themselves.
But then if you sell flavours, I guess you are not going to say that, even if you know it. I probably should not have commented. But that statement is simply not true.
In reply to Post #1
In that podcast John Baker clearly said that sweeteners were not necessary/needed in baits.
Examples he quoted as being “ sweeteners” were talin, saccharine, fructose, dextrose and maltose, both synthetic sweeteners and sugars quoted here.
The only”sweet” additive he recommended was honey at a low level of 1/3rd of a teaspoon per 6 eggs .
The suggestion was that the attractive ability of honey was the content and complexity of the various aroma chemicals it contained .
He also made the point that if “ sweeteners” were effective attractors then they would be included in commercial fish feed pellets, and they are not.
In that podcast John Baker clearly said that sweeteners were not necessary/needed in baits.
Examples he quoted as being “ sweeteners” were talin, saccharine, fructose, dextrose and maltose, both synthetic sweeteners and sugars quoted here.
The only”sweet” additive he recommended was honey at a low level of 1/3rd of a teaspoon per 6 eggs .
The suggestion was that the attractive ability of honey was the content and complexity of the various aroma chemicals it contained .
He also made the point that if “ sweeteners” were effective attractors then they would be included in commercial fish feed pellets, and they are not.
Has anyone tried a bland 50/50 semo / soya bait. 1 unflavoured, 1 flavoured with a established good flavour alone, and a third with an established well regarded sugar or blend of sugars and sweeteners. Surely this is the only true test.
In reply to Post #19
He also made the point that if “ sweeteners” were effective attractors then they would be included in commercial fish feed pellets, and they are not.
Funny enough Scopex, plum and all the other flavours aren't included in commercial feeds but it does not mean they aren't great attractors...
He also made the point that if “ sweeteners” were effective attractors then they would be included in commercial fish feed pellets, and they are not.
Funny enough Scopex, plum and all the other flavours aren't included in commercial feeds but it does not mean they aren't great attractors...
In reply to Post #19
Could you please point me into the direction of John Bakers blockbuster bait over the years? Nice plum flavour, some decent base mixes. No offence intended, but I could not even name a bait that he has made. I certainly do not know of any time where John Bakers bait, was doing anything to make me, or anyone else sit up and take notice to rush out and buy it. Previously his bait was being sold through Yateley angling, but not anymore. I saw it, looked ok. The results clearly did not make it a blockbuster though did they, otherwise why is it not for sale anymore?
He sells expensive flavours in the main. Very well regarded for flavours, yes.
Betaine alone though, has accounted for more carp, than all of the products he sells put together, multiplied by (insert a suitable very large number).
Anyone who knows anything about carp bait at all, knows this surely? It's a little bit embarrassing, even needing to have to discuss this in my honest opinion.
Betaine does not attract carp? Jeez.
Could you please point me into the direction of John Bakers blockbuster bait over the years? Nice plum flavour, some decent base mixes. No offence intended, but I could not even name a bait that he has made. I certainly do not know of any time where John Bakers bait, was doing anything to make me, or anyone else sit up and take notice to rush out and buy it. Previously his bait was being sold through Yateley angling, but not anymore. I saw it, looked ok. The results clearly did not make it a blockbuster though did they, otherwise why is it not for sale anymore?
He sells expensive flavours in the main. Very well regarded for flavours, yes.
Betaine alone though, has accounted for more carp, than all of the products he sells put together, multiplied by (insert a suitable very large number).
Anyone who knows anything about carp bait at all, knows this surely? It's a little bit embarrassing, even needing to have to discuss this in my honest opinion.
Betaine does not attract carp? Jeez.
In reply to Post #22
Hi, think John has a small niche of users of his products which they seem to do well on , he doesn't roll bait but produces base mixes and attractors for those who prefer to roll their own , his Supermilk milk protein mix has accounted for some huge barbel over the years myself included , prob not a fashionable bait/attractor supplier as say Premier , ABS , sticky etc but that doesnt mean there any the less effective, he is very black and white and prob a bit old school but theres no denying his baits do catch , just being devils advocate really Mark
Hi, think John has a small niche of users of his products which they seem to do well on , he doesn't roll bait but produces base mixes and attractors for those who prefer to roll their own , his Supermilk milk protein mix has accounted for some huge barbel over the years myself included , prob not a fashionable bait/attractor supplier as say Premier , ABS , sticky etc but that doesnt mean there any the less effective, he is very black and white and prob a bit old school but theres no denying his baits do catch , just being devils advocate really Mark
In reply to Post #23
Yes, and I understand why he has that opinion mate, because of great knowledge of Barbel and the fact he is very old school. That opinion he has is from the 80's. Sweeteners are completely useless for Barbel. I fish around Johns area, he is a legend. But that statement about sweeteners and sugars regarding carp, is absolute claptrap.
I will share some knowledge from the late great R D Campbell. It was Bob, or some one like him who actually produce these certain products, that then John Baker will sell, or I might use in producing carp bait. Bob once told me when discussing our S2... "Mark, taste any of the very most successful flavours, they have always had a very sweet back note". The flavours themselves are sweet tasting. Even the ones you would think would never have a sweet back note... Because you are never going to taste shellfish blah blah are you! Bob had his own little baby... 'hydrose' sweetener. Bob loved that gear.... He went to the trouble of trade marking it (it's not the same stuff anymore)... Tonnes of the most successful flavours that you have ALL used over the years had incorporated in to them... What is now being claimed does not attract carp in this thread.
I'd bet if you taste Johns Plum... It will leave a sweet tasting blast on your tongue. That is without ever even tasting it. It's that sweet tasting blast on your tongue in the main that makes it effective as an attractor... And has zero to do with how it smells to your nose.
Yes, and I understand why he has that opinion mate, because of great knowledge of Barbel and the fact he is very old school. That opinion he has is from the 80's. Sweeteners are completely useless for Barbel. I fish around Johns area, he is a legend. But that statement about sweeteners and sugars regarding carp, is absolute claptrap.
I will share some knowledge from the late great R D Campbell. It was Bob, or some one like him who actually produce these certain products, that then John Baker will sell, or I might use in producing carp bait. Bob once told me when discussing our S2... "Mark, taste any of the very most successful flavours, they have always had a very sweet back note". The flavours themselves are sweet tasting. Even the ones you would think would never have a sweet back note... Because you are never going to taste shellfish blah blah are you! Bob had his own little baby... 'hydrose' sweetener. Bob loved that gear.... He went to the trouble of trade marking it (it's not the same stuff anymore)... Tonnes of the most successful flavours that you have ALL used over the years had incorporated in to them... What is now being claimed does not attract carp in this thread.
I'd bet if you taste Johns Plum... It will leave a sweet tasting blast on your tongue. That is without ever even tasting it. It's that sweet tasting blast on your tongue in the main that makes it effective as an attractor... And has zero to do with how it smells to your nose.
In reply to Post #22
No one said Betaine does not attract carp.Betaine is trimethylglycine and it is its structural similarity to the amino acid glycine that generates or enhances the “attractive” response by carp not its “sweetness” as perceived by humans.
Several other amino acids are perceived to be sweet by human taste: but it is not this property that attracts carp, it is the binding of these amino acids to the amino acid receptors that generate the “attraction “ response.
No one said Betaine does not attract carp.Betaine is trimethylglycine and it is its structural similarity to the amino acid glycine that generates or enhances the “attractive” response by carp not its “sweetness” as perceived by humans.
Several other amino acids are perceived to be sweet by human taste: but it is not this property that attracts carp, it is the binding of these amino acids to the amino acid receptors that generate the “attraction “ response.
In reply to Post #25
Quote...No one said Betaine does not attract carp.
Betaine is from sugar beet. It's a sweetener. I replied to this thread because of the claim of sweeteners (and then you added sugars) not attracting carp.
Quote...No one said Betaine does not attract carp.
Betaine is from sugar beet. It's a sweetener. I replied to this thread because of the claim of sweeteners (and then you added sugars) not attracting carp.
In reply to Post #25
Hi James
Can too much sweetener in a bait, act as a repellant ?
Hi James
Can too much sweetener in a bait, act as a repellant ?
In reply to Post #21
The aquaculture feed industry has looked at flavours as used by carp anglers; but could not see any significant advantages in their use as compared to their standard formulations.
The aquaculture feed industry has looked at flavours as used by carp anglers; but could not see any significant advantages in their use as compared to their standard formulations.
In reply to Post #27
Depends on the “sweetener;” but yes there is that possibility, more likely that any receptors involved will be “ overloaded” and the carp will “switch off” .
More is not always best
Depends on the “sweetener;” but yes there is that possibility, more likely that any receptors involved will be “ overloaded” and the carp will “switch off” .
More is not always best
In reply to Post #22
I'm no expert like some others here. However based on my past experience, I will be including raw molasses and trimethylglycine in my attractor mix as usual. I don't know the science but it works for me.
I'm no expert like some others here. However based on my past experience, I will be including raw molasses and trimethylglycine in my attractor mix as usual. I don't know the science but it works for me.
In reply to Post #29
One certain sweetener is patented for use in fish feed.
Some peach flavour or component I believe was or is used in trout feed.
Feed additives for fish is usually all about taste not olfaction which also may explain why such components are rarely used in feed.
One certain sweetener is patented for use in fish feed.
Some peach flavour or component I believe was or is used in trout feed.
Feed additives for fish is usually all about taste not olfaction which also may explain why such components are rarely used in feed.
Has anyone played about with high-grade manuka honey? It's fascinating stuff.
There's more to that than just saccarides, and I think that is why JB is more pro honey as a sweetener compared to others such as thaumatin etc.
Unless I've missed something, I don't think JB has flat out said that sweeteners are ****.
There's more to that than just saccarides, and I think that is why JB is more pro honey as a sweetener compared to others such as thaumatin etc.
Unless I've missed something, I don't think JB has flat out said that sweeteners are ****.