Warning, long ramble coming up. This has been going around in my head for ages 
None of this is new. This is a summary to help some that are new to carp fishing and confused by the bombardment of information on bait available and often unqualified or untested theories then taken incorrectly as fact. I keep seeing the same confusion time and again on this forum and various FB groups.
If you are happy with your bait, happy with your supplier and it's not that important to you then stop here. I, like many, find the science behind baits a fascinating side of my fishing.
For a long time I have read different interpretations of the HNV theory. I believe that the original theory could be summarised by saying that carp could recognise a higher quality food source and would later seek out that food source in preference to any other food source. At that time the high quality aspect was thought to be based around protein content and quality and these baits were tagged HNV baits. Baits of 70% or more protein caught more fish so why not believe this?
Move forward 40 years and theories evolve (important word this) and develop based on real world experience. Generally HNV now means a bait that covers the carps full nutritional requirements. When I say HNV that is what I mean, I do not mean high protein although my HNV baits have a reasonably high level in them but I also make sure I have good levels of all the other nutrients.
The exact definition of what is a carps nutritional requirement are often debated. Obviously each fish in each lake has a different exact requirement depending on many factors such as time of year, water temperature, weather, available naturals, other available anglers feed and individual carp morphology and so on. No two carp are the same just like no two humans are the same.
However whilst finding the exact requirements for your target carp is impossible it is perfectly possible to specify a nutritional profile that covers 99% (or more) of carp that we target. So we can list a suitable target profile for a bait covering many aspects such as protein (including digestibility and AA profile), carbohydrates, lipids, fibre, vitamins and minerals and so in. This is easy to research and list. Many published articles and papers allow anyone to come up with a sensible profile. It doesn't have to be exact and it cannot be so.
Many still doubt that a carp can select an HNV bait in preference to a lower food quality item. To think that a carp can swim up to a pile of bait and using its basic sensory system pick out the baits of HNV against the lower value items does seem very far-fetched. But is it?
In 1859 a chap called Charles Darwin published his book ‘On the Origin of Species' which gave us his Theory of Evolution by natural selection. Peer review and millions of observations in the centuries since have proven the basics of his theory. If you apply natural selection to the carp we fish for, and why would you not, it is not only possible for carp that are better suited to finding and eating HNV baits to thrive it is completely expected.
Observations in animals have shown that evolution by natural selection can be seen to have an effect in as little as 3-4 generations. That is in wild animals. In selective breading this effect is even stronger. My Cocker spaniel has multiple field trial champions in the last 2-3 generations and he is an incredibly driven working dog. This is by breeding. I have seen other Cocker spaniels that are great pets but couldn't drive a bird out of undergrowth given a month of Sundays to do it, they don't have the breeding for it.
A lot of the carp we now fish for are breed for speed of growth (and looks). By selective breeding, both natural and by human intervention, the majority of carp that thrive and survive in the waters we fish are the fish that are better able to utilise the environment they now live in and this includes most nutritious food source. These are the fish that are better able to seek out the food that makes them grow bigger, stronger and faster. The fish that are not able to find the food so well will be less successful at passing there genes on. These bloodlines will and do die out.
So an HNV bait will, generally, attract the better fish that by breeding can find the better diet using the senses available to them. How the fish are able to find these HNV baits is a separate thing altogether.
That is not to say you can't catch the biggest carp in the lake on a slice of cheap white bread, you can. You might also catch the biggest/most/best fish on a tin of sweetcorn or a bag of boilies made out of sawdust and semolina. These just prove that it's not all bait and you also need to be in the right place at the right time.
The best HNV bait will not draw fish across the lake to find them, we are not talking about sharks detecting a drop of blood at sub-ppm levels. Location still comes first. By using an HNV bait, with suitable bait application, you can very much tilt the odds in your favour of picking out the bigger and better fish.
If you have stuck with me to the end I hope the above prompts your grey cells to ponder the ways we can apply this knowledge to our benefit
None of this is new. This is a summary to help some that are new to carp fishing and confused by the bombardment of information on bait available and often unqualified or untested theories then taken incorrectly as fact. I keep seeing the same confusion time and again on this forum and various FB groups.
If you are happy with your bait, happy with your supplier and it's not that important to you then stop here. I, like many, find the science behind baits a fascinating side of my fishing.
For a long time I have read different interpretations of the HNV theory. I believe that the original theory could be summarised by saying that carp could recognise a higher quality food source and would later seek out that food source in preference to any other food source. At that time the high quality aspect was thought to be based around protein content and quality and these baits were tagged HNV baits. Baits of 70% or more protein caught more fish so why not believe this?
Move forward 40 years and theories evolve (important word this) and develop based on real world experience. Generally HNV now means a bait that covers the carps full nutritional requirements. When I say HNV that is what I mean, I do not mean high protein although my HNV baits have a reasonably high level in them but I also make sure I have good levels of all the other nutrients.
The exact definition of what is a carps nutritional requirement are often debated. Obviously each fish in each lake has a different exact requirement depending on many factors such as time of year, water temperature, weather, available naturals, other available anglers feed and individual carp morphology and so on. No two carp are the same just like no two humans are the same.
However whilst finding the exact requirements for your target carp is impossible it is perfectly possible to specify a nutritional profile that covers 99% (or more) of carp that we target. So we can list a suitable target profile for a bait covering many aspects such as protein (including digestibility and AA profile), carbohydrates, lipids, fibre, vitamins and minerals and so in. This is easy to research and list. Many published articles and papers allow anyone to come up with a sensible profile. It doesn't have to be exact and it cannot be so.
Many still doubt that a carp can select an HNV bait in preference to a lower food quality item. To think that a carp can swim up to a pile of bait and using its basic sensory system pick out the baits of HNV against the lower value items does seem very far-fetched. But is it?
In 1859 a chap called Charles Darwin published his book ‘On the Origin of Species' which gave us his Theory of Evolution by natural selection. Peer review and millions of observations in the centuries since have proven the basics of his theory. If you apply natural selection to the carp we fish for, and why would you not, it is not only possible for carp that are better suited to finding and eating HNV baits to thrive it is completely expected.
Observations in animals have shown that evolution by natural selection can be seen to have an effect in as little as 3-4 generations. That is in wild animals. In selective breading this effect is even stronger. My Cocker spaniel has multiple field trial champions in the last 2-3 generations and he is an incredibly driven working dog. This is by breeding. I have seen other Cocker spaniels that are great pets but couldn't drive a bird out of undergrowth given a month of Sundays to do it, they don't have the breeding for it.
A lot of the carp we now fish for are breed for speed of growth (and looks). By selective breeding, both natural and by human intervention, the majority of carp that thrive and survive in the waters we fish are the fish that are better able to utilise the environment they now live in and this includes most nutritious food source. These are the fish that are better able to seek out the food that makes them grow bigger, stronger and faster. The fish that are not able to find the food so well will be less successful at passing there genes on. These bloodlines will and do die out.
So an HNV bait will, generally, attract the better fish that by breeding can find the better diet using the senses available to them. How the fish are able to find these HNV baits is a separate thing altogether.
That is not to say you can't catch the biggest carp in the lake on a slice of cheap white bread, you can. You might also catch the biggest/most/best fish on a tin of sweetcorn or a bag of boilies made out of sawdust and semolina. These just prove that it's not all bait and you also need to be in the right place at the right time.
The best HNV bait will not draw fish across the lake to find them, we are not talking about sharks detecting a drop of blood at sub-ppm levels. Location still comes first. By using an HNV bait, with suitable bait application, you can very much tilt the odds in your favour of picking out the bigger and better fish.
If you have stuck with me to the end I hope the above prompts your grey cells to ponder the ways we can apply this knowledge to our benefit
In reply to Post #1
So - which is best Mainline Cell or Scopex Squid 😄
I'm not sure I agree with all parts of the assertion Smurf. I think certain strains are emerging based on greed and their ability to convert diet - which is almost entirely pellet based in their early years. Is conversion of hnv food related to preference? I don't know.
What I do know is that I want to give them something back. So I certainly subscribe to the rest of what you say. There's a phrase I hear lots which I think is ridiculous "there's no bad baits these days". Quality of ingredients (whatever that means) has reduced in most commercially available baits and it's all our fault. Keeper boy summarised it yesterday, we won't pay more than 5 or 6 quid a kilo and these barons have kids to feed.... I don't blame the manufacturers at all.
So - which is best Mainline Cell or Scopex Squid 😄
I'm not sure I agree with all parts of the assertion Smurf. I think certain strains are emerging based on greed and their ability to convert diet - which is almost entirely pellet based in their early years. Is conversion of hnv food related to preference? I don't know.
What I do know is that I want to give them something back. So I certainly subscribe to the rest of what you say. There's a phrase I hear lots which I think is ridiculous "there's no bad baits these days". Quality of ingredients (whatever that means) has reduced in most commercially available baits and it's all our fault. Keeper boy summarised it yesterday, we won't pay more than 5 or 6 quid a kilo and these barons have kids to feed.... I don't blame the manufacturers at all.
In reply to Post #2
I tried a bag of Scopex Squid last year on a local club water.....I did better on a peace of foam
Most commercial pellets fall under the 'HNV' label. These carp strains are just proving the point, they hunt out the pellets as it fills a built in drive further fueled by habit. The fact that they might hunt based largely based on the sound of the pellets hitting the water doesn't disprove the HNV theory at all. Its them using one of there senses to detect the arrival of food.
They can convert these pellets to rapid growth because the pellets are a balanced nutritional source for there needs i.e. HNV for them on the stock pond at this young age.
I tried a bag of Scopex Squid last year on a local club water.....I did better on a peace of foam
Most commercial pellets fall under the 'HNV' label. These carp strains are just proving the point, they hunt out the pellets as it fills a built in drive further fueled by habit. The fact that they might hunt based largely based on the sound of the pellets hitting the water doesn't disprove the HNV theory at all. Its them using one of there senses to detect the arrival of food.
They can convert these pellets to rapid growth because the pellets are a balanced nutritional source for there needs i.e. HNV for them on the stock pond at this young age.
In reply to Post #4
It would be an interesting exercise to fish a private lake and use peanuts and a really good hnv boilie over a season and see which caught the most fish.
It would be an interesting exercise to fish a private lake and use peanuts and a really good hnv boilie over a season and see which caught the most fish.
My take on darwinism and carp is as follows.
It is not that the carp is the species that adapts the best to the environment, but that the carp is one of the lucky few that thrives and survives because the environment gives them enough so that they survive. So it's a function of their surroundings, not their adaptability, nor their ability to find what is good for them, it is just there, and thus they survive.
Carp love halibuts or tigers, but they die when that's all there is, that kinda sorts the argument.
As for the breeding part. You select the ones that show the most desirable features, and in our case that is growth when presented with a theoretical optimal dieet. But that still doesn't prove they seek it out, it just means they react more favorable in terms of growth when said dieet is available.
As for scopex, i just don't knowwww
, i hate the smell and never did well on it.
It is not that the carp is the species that adapts the best to the environment, but that the carp is one of the lucky few that thrives and survives because the environment gives them enough so that they survive. So it's a function of their surroundings, not their adaptability, nor their ability to find what is good for them, it is just there, and thus they survive.
Carp love halibuts or tigers, but they die when that's all there is, that kinda sorts the argument.
As for the breeding part. You select the ones that show the most desirable features, and in our case that is growth when presented with a theoretical optimal dieet. But that still doesn't prove they seek it out, it just means they react more favorable in terms of growth when said dieet is available.
As for scopex, i just don't knowwww
, i hate the smell and never did well on it.
In reply to Post #1
Sounds to me that you have come to the conclusion that bait is not the be and end all?
Sounds to me that you have come to the conclusion that bait is not the be and end all?
In reply to Post #6
Funny, I love the smell and taste of Scopex although I don't use it generally now in any baits.
Funny, I love the smell and taste of Scopex although I don't use it generally now in any baits.
In reply to Post #7
Not at all, I think bait is still a very important part of carp fishing and one I very much enjoy learning about. I believe quality baits will out fish lower quality baits with all other things being equal.
Location has always been key.
Not at all, I think bait is still a very important part of carp fishing and one I very much enjoy learning about. I believe quality baits will out fish lower quality baits with all other things being equal.
Location has always been key.
In reply to Post #9
Fair points
So, out of interest, if you had to pick one bait to fish for carp over the next 10 years, what would it be?
Fair points
So, out of interest, if you had to pick one bait to fish for carp over the next 10 years, what would it be?
In reply to Post #9
Do you believe there's a limit to how good a bait needs to be. A bait can be over done, too high a protein level or more Fishmeal than required. A decent bait to me doesn't need to cost the earth but contain enough for a carp to get the essentials and enjoy it.
Do you believe there's a limit to how good a bait needs to be. A bait can be over done, too high a protein level or more Fishmeal than required. A decent bait to me doesn't need to cost the earth but contain enough for a carp to get the essentials and enjoy it.
In reply to Post #11
enjoy it
Now there's a good point
enjoy it
Now there's a good point
In reply to Post #12
It's a hard one to prove isn't it! A starving carp in an overstocked pond is forced to eat whatever it can find. But out of the hundreds of baits I have made or purchased over the years, the best feeding responses (I mean everytime you feed them and not just a sunny afternoon in July) have been on a bait that contains a)fishmeal b) has vitamins minerals and salts c) has an amino liquid content and d) very good quality milk products. No matter how many times I try nut products or cereals or meat meals the results or response is nowhere near the same. Protein isn't the be all and end all but naturally the baits containing good levels of the above become naturally high in protein! They must realise that digging for hours through silt for tiny molluscs is hard work and a dirty great protein ball is far easier! Is a carp a lazy short cut finder, a greedy pig or a clever user of its Enviroment
It's a hard one to prove isn't it! A starving carp in an overstocked pond is forced to eat whatever it can find. But out of the hundreds of baits I have made or purchased over the years, the best feeding responses (I mean everytime you feed them and not just a sunny afternoon in July) have been on a bait that contains a)fishmeal b) has vitamins minerals and salts c) has an amino liquid content and d) very good quality milk products. No matter how many times I try nut products or cereals or meat meals the results or response is nowhere near the same. Protein isn't the be all and end all but naturally the baits containing good levels of the above become naturally high in protein! They must realise that digging for hours through silt for tiny molluscs is hard work and a dirty great protein ball is far easier! Is a carp a lazy short cut finder, a greedy pig or a clever user of its Enviroment
In reply to Post #10
That's really easy, the same bait I have made and used for the last 10 years
That's really easy, the same bait I have made and used for the last 10 years
In reply to Post #13
Carp are constantly evolving to make the most of the environment they live in, the same as all living things. Your comments back that up
Carp are constantly evolving to make the most of the environment they live in, the same as all living things. Your comments back that up