Its caught me out this year. Autumn is the time I find them in the deepest water, winter they are at half depth. The current high temperatures and the much warmer Sept and Oct lead me to think they would still.be in the deep. They are not, but already at mid depth. Temperatures at the surface are still 10°c. Is the mid deep phenomenon relative to photoperiodism, and not temperature?
In reply to Post #1
I really wish it was that simple. Are you a politician?
I really wish it was that simple. Are you a politician?
In reply to Post #2
No, nor an Oceanographer.
No, nor an Oceanographer.
In reply to Post #3
OK. Photoperiodism, from this point on to be called PP as I can't be arsed to keep typing it.
PP is simply daylength and is a very accurate natural calendar. The length of any day, measured from sunrise to sunset this year will be the same as on that day 1 year, 10 years, 1000 years or 1000,000 years ago. Animal and plant behaviour has evolved to respond to this. It doesn't usually have short term effects but triggers major events and behaviours.
In fish for instance it is the trigger for migration, spawning and dormancy in many species including carp. It is unlikely that carp are responding to PP by sitting in mid water.
OK. Photoperiodism, from this point on to be called PP as I can't be arsed to keep typing it.
PP is simply daylength and is a very accurate natural calendar. The length of any day, measured from sunrise to sunset this year will be the same as on that day 1 year, 10 years, 1000 years or 1000,000 years ago. Animal and plant behaviour has evolved to respond to this. It doesn't usually have short term effects but triggers major events and behaviours.
In fish for instance it is the trigger for migration, spawning and dormancy in many species including carp. It is unlikely that carp are responding to PP by sitting in mid water.
In reply to Post #1
I agree that they should still be on it based on temps but they're very clearly not (on the water I fish anyway). Imo PP is as good a suggestion as any as to why they've gone ziggy so early.
Or maybe it's the drop (in temps) itself rather than the temp it reaches i.e. a drop from 15 to 10 is as good as a drop from 10 to 7 in terms of getting them into their winter area.
I agree that they should still be on it based on temps but they're very clearly not (on the water I fish anyway). Imo PP is as good a suggestion as any as to why they've gone ziggy so early.
Or maybe it's the drop (in temps) itself rather than the temp it reaches i.e. a drop from 15 to 10 is as good as a drop from 10 to 7 in terms of getting them into their winter area.
In reply to Post #5
Interested to know why you think PP is as good a suggestion as any. Could be temperature, feeding in the thermocline layer, angling pressure, barometric pressure or a response to daily changes in light levels which is different to PP.
Interested to know why you think PP is as good a suggestion as any. Could be temperature, feeding in the thermocline layer, angling pressure, barometric pressure or a response to daily changes in light levels which is different to PP.
In reply to Post #6
All valid potentials mate. Although angling pressure is defo not influencing them on the water I fish. No one is fishing it lol. I dont buy that they're feeding mid water (habitualy anyway), no signs of hatches. But your potentials are each as good a suggestion as any. Until i observe some kind of evidence its guesswork for me.
All valid potentials mate. Although angling pressure is defo not influencing them on the water I fish. No one is fishing it lol. I dont buy that they're feeding mid water (habitualy anyway), no signs of hatches. But your potentials are each as good a suggestion as any. Until i observe some kind of evidence its guesswork for me.
In reply to Post #7
Me too. I'd call it educated guesswork.
Me too. I'd call it educated guesswork.
In reply to Post #8
I'd call it that too but sometimes I feel like I've learned nothing
I'd call it that too but sometimes I feel like I've learned nothing
In reply to Post #9
I think that is a lot more effective than thinking you've learnt everything.
I think that is a lot more effective than thinking you've learnt everything.
In reply to Post #10
I'm hedging my bets. One on the deck and one on a zig. Last week fish were crashing over me all night but couldn't buy a bite off the bottom.
Edit. Apart from 3 snotties
I'm hedging my bets. One on the deck and one on a zig. Last week fish were crashing over me all night but couldn't buy a bite off the bottom.
Edit. Apart from 3 snotties
In reply to Post #11
Been there done that Phil. I have tended to go to zigs after xmas but the last few years has made me wonder why exactly that is. Even established baiting campaigns have shut up shop in Nov. I was listening to the Cypography podcast and Elliot mentioned by the time he's noticed the same thing he's missed the boat i.e. its winter. Can completely relate to that.
Always next year I suppose
Been there done that Phil. I have tended to go to zigs after xmas but the last few years has made me wonder why exactly that is. Even established baiting campaigns have shut up shop in Nov. I was listening to the Cypography podcast and Elliot mentioned by the time he's noticed the same thing he's missed the boat i.e. its winter. Can completely relate to that.
Always next year I suppose
That first big temperature transition from summer/autumn to autumn/winter (ok, not quite yet) is the killer.
Once temps stabilise and air pressure drops then they should respond to some bait like normal piggies
Once temps stabilise and air pressure drops then they should respond to some bait like normal piggies
I wonder if the habits of carp are/have changed over the years as many waters have matured and weed growth has increased?
My water is very, very heavily tree lined and the fishing definitely gets harder after the leaves fall and sink to the bottom. On waters that are weedy it will be dying back and lying on the lakebed. Both will be lowering d.o. levels, which definitely affects feeding.
My water is very, very heavily tree lined and the fishing definitely gets harder after the leaves fall and sink to the bottom. On waters that are weedy it will be dying back and lying on the lakebed. Both will be lowering d.o. levels, which definitely affects feeding.
In reply to Post #14
My water is the same scenario with the leaves and has slowed right up. I might have to give Zigs a go next week, trouble is I've only dabbled with them before and have no faith in them, any encouragement anyone can give me would be greatly appreciated
My water is the same scenario with the leaves and has slowed right up. I might have to give Zigs a go next week, trouble is I've only dabbled with them before and have no faith in them, any encouragement anyone can give me would be greatly appreciated
In reply to Post #14
Agree Andy. Couple that with the natural larders revealed as the weed dies and you struggle to compete using bait during the short periods they do feed. Better off with a bit of black foam suspended where they spend 90% of their time imo.
Agree Andy. Couple that with the natural larders revealed as the weed dies and you struggle to compete using bait during the short periods they do feed. Better off with a bit of black foam suspended where they spend 90% of their time imo.
In reply to Post #15
Go go Rob
Go go Rob
In reply to Post #15
I haven't caught loads on Zigs but I've caught enough to be able to sit behind them and stick with it. It toook me a while to get the that stage, especially fishing them at night.
The water I'm on is 16ft deep at the deeper end so I'm using adjustables. Being able to change the depth you're fishing at easily helps with the psychology a bit. You feel like you're working/changing things.
I haven't caught loads on Zigs but I've caught enough to be able to sit behind them and stick with it. It toook me a while to get the that stage, especially fishing them at night.
The water I'm on is 16ft deep at the deeper end so I'm using adjustables. Being able to change the depth you're fishing at easily helps with the psychology a bit. You feel like you're working/changing things.
having said that I think they are actually preoccupied on the naturals at the moment so is zigs even the right way to go? 
In reply to Post #19
I would go for one dull bait on the deck, a bright one on a hinge and a zig 2/3 from the bottom as a starter. All in the location they are showing.
I would go for one dull bait on the deck, a bright one on a hinge and a zig 2/3 from the bottom as a starter. All in the location they are showing.
In reply to Post #1
The governing factor causing carp to hang for extended periods of inactivity in the middle layers (half depth) has to be temperature. Next to angling pressure it is the most important external influence to the carp. I know that water is most dense at 4°c and least dense at 0°c. It follows the that carp looking for temperature conditions that will maintain, but not shut down their organ functions, will be seeking out a consistent temperature range where the water is the least cold.
The governing factor causing carp to hang for extended periods of inactivity in the middle layers (half depth) has to be temperature. Next to angling pressure it is the most important external influence to the carp. I know that water is most dense at 4°c and least dense at 0°c. It follows the that carp looking for temperature conditions that will maintain, but not shut down their organ functions, will be seeking out a consistent temperature range where the water is the least cold.
In reply to Post #19
Agree preoccupied mate but feeding spells are getting much shorter at this time of year. You're better off with zigs in front of their face for 23 hrs than a bait in front of them for an hour when they're hovering up the naturals imo. Of course with 3 rods we can have the best of both worlds.
Agree preoccupied mate but feeding spells are getting much shorter at this time of year. You're better off with zigs in front of their face for 23 hrs than a bait in front of them for an hour when they're hovering up the naturals imo. Of course with 3 rods we can have the best of both worlds.
In reply to Post #22
I dont use anchored lures, preferring absolutely anything else. If I can find mid depth areas where I have I observed them I will always fish on the bottom.
I dont use anchored lures, preferring absolutely anything else. If I can find mid depth areas where I have I observed them I will always fish on the bottom.
In reply to Post #5
I am sitting on my 110 acre lowish stock US lake right now pondering just this issue.
6 successive blankk nights after a very productive and consistent year.
Water temp still 11-12C, but has fallen from over 20C in last 2 weeks.
I agree it may be mostly change of temp, not absolute... Can't catch em on zigs here , so that's it for 2021.
Interesting thread....
I am sitting on my 110 acre lowish stock US lake right now pondering just this issue.
6 successive blankk nights after a very productive and consistent year.
Water temp still 11-12C, but has fallen from over 20C in last 2 weeks.
I agree it may be mostly change of temp, not absolute... Can't catch em on zigs here , so that's it for 2021.
Interesting thread....
In reply to Post #23
This has also done me well on certain waters in winter tbf, especially when the mid depth area is near the deepest water.
This has also done me well on certain waters in winter tbf, especially when the mid depth area is near the deepest water.
In reply to Post #19
certainly think this is the case on my lake, zigs tried and also failed !
Similar issues being discussed in the thread 'Jumping Carp' , I find it interesting that very similar issues are being found on different venues .
certainly think this is the case on my lake, zigs tried and also failed !Similar issues being discussed in the thread 'Jumping Carp' , I find it interesting that very similar issues are being found on different venues .
In reply to Post #8
I fished accidental zigs on my water a couple of years ago.... The shot fell off an 8” hooklink.
I went on to do OK but usually fished on a fairly shallow 2ft island shelf. So all you ziggers if I wanted to employ this tactic in different areas is it a foot plus down or 8” up?
I fished accidental zigs on my water a couple of years ago.... The shot fell off an 8” hooklink.
I went on to do OK but usually fished on a fairly shallow 2ft island shelf. So all you ziggers if I wanted to employ this tactic in different areas is it a foot plus down or 8” up?
In reply to Post #27
The same happened to me, when I forgot to pin down a popup on my RHR. I too was fishing with a zig type arrangement, albeit only 10 inches from the bottom. I landed a Cassein mid 50 on that rod. It's never sat well.
The same happened to me, when I forgot to pin down a popup on my RHR. I too was fishing with a zig type arrangement, albeit only 10 inches from the bottom. I landed a Cassein mid 50 on that rod. It's never sat well.
In reply to Post #28
Great thread that really got me thinking.
I fish a water with depths to 70ft and it's amazing where you can catch them as the seasons change.
Great thread that really got me thinking.
I fish a water with depths to 70ft and it's amazing where you can catch them as the seasons change.
In reply to Post #29
I have a new ticket on a 50ft water. If I struggle you'll be getting a PM from me
I have a new ticket on a 50ft water. If I struggle you'll be getting a PM from me
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