Hi All,

Bit of a long shot and it may not be possible

I'm fishing a fairly strong tidal river (in Australia where I can't use anything fish based)
Problem I'm having is with any particles, nuts or beans etc within a couple of hours my groundbait is all over the place

Any ideas people may specifically have regarding the preparation process that may help the aforementioned heavier / less boyant would be greatly appreciated

Best

Jon

In reply to Post #1
Try a big cage feeder with a groundbait plug at each end. It's what they were invented for. Old school but it will work. Do some reading and pick up the tips and wrinkles.

In reply to Post #1
Bucket of particle and a baiting spoon, bait a few meters upstream so it drops over your spot with the flow

Used to fish the Trent and a few other rivers when I was younger, you could tell where the bait was on the bottom when running a stick float down, it's where the bites were if they were not up in the water. Same as, just allow for the flow. If it's that strong your bait is just going to get washed away anyway

Fill it in Jon

In reply to Post #1
Vitalin or similar will help get it down quickly Jon and in one lump... But in terms of holding the bait in a flow it's all about what you are fishing on bottom wise. Look for gravel. In a fast flow if you're fishing on mud or clay everything will get washed away,,, But if you can find large patches of gravel or broken ground, these will hold your bait for you past the point where you can physically fish and hold bottom yourself.

In reply to Post #1
Bait little and often rather than lumping in... A trickle of bait down the flow can be very effective in pulling fish...

In reply to Post #1
Why don't you use vitalin/groundbait then freeze them as they are made into balls and when you throw them in frozen they settle on the bottom and slowly disperse leaving piles on the river bed,you could even use an old pva tube and put liquid in and reply's hole before freezing them that way you've got loads of flavour and attractants in the water and water columns

Hi All,

Thanks for the replies.
Bite time is just before and just after high tide at the moment so the flow strength is constantly changing as is the direction which is what's spreading it all over the place.

Little worried about about the meat content, but I'll deffinately give the vitalin a go and see what happens, might try playing around with some method style balls or patties as well

Deffinately got me thinking about the problem in a different way, so again, Thanks

Best

Jon

In reply to Post #6
Water, when frozen, tends to float! Thus, large balls of bait, dampened with or soaking in water, will be semi-buoyant and will end up way downstream of where you intended.

Giant bait dropper is the answer. There is a guy on here who has found the answer, attaching a drop-down lid to a large saucepan. The lid is held in place by a 1lb lead on a steel rod, in exactly the same way as a standard bait dropped works. The lead hits the bottom which pushed the rod up and this opens the lid when the pan hits the lakebed. It works a treat, even in fast flowing rivers.

John Baker demonstrated his monster bait dropper on his Korda podast,I think it could take a kilo at a time or there is the old method Frank Warwick spoke about,a football sized method ball dropped over the side of the boat if you could do that.

In reply to Post #7
I would just focus on getting them used to finding it and eating it Jon. Once they know what it is you can catch them anywhere on it providing they are around

In reply to Post #1
I know you said particle, but have you looked at making some heavy boiled baits that would stand a much better chance of holding bottom ?

In reply to Post #7
"Thanks for the replies.
Bite time is just before and just after high tide at the moment so the flow strength is constantly changing as is the direction which is what's spreading it all over the place."

However you choose to get it down through the water column, what you are describing you really need to find some gravel to hold it Jon. Tidal rivers can be a git, for exactly what you are describing. When the flow only goes one way... There will always be food traps created somewhere where it's easier to fish and hold bottom. When the flow goes both ways, it really makes it challenging holding bait on an area as you are describing, if it flows really quickly both ways. Fishing over gravel will hold it there for you unquestionably better than anything else.

It took me a long time to learn this on the Thames. Often the fastest flow goes over the gravel runs... Which is why the gravel runs are there in the first place. But... It holds food particles large and small incredibly well, even when that flow is raging. In even a moderate flow, fishing over a smooth bottom... All the bait is gone very rapidly. You need something there that can physically hold it all in place. Gravel will mate.

Hi All

I'm boating out

So the inverting plastic bag trick gets it down there fast and I think I've done up to about 3 kilos per drop before with that

Tcarper
I'll have a lead about for gravel, but it's mainly sand I've found so far

Thank

Best
Jon

In reply to Post #13
If there's sand, you'll find gravel Jon. It helps massively holding the leads as well as the bait. You'll find no amount of lead (10oz+) will stop the flow moving it if you are fishing over a smooth bottom... Yet fish over some gravel in the same flow and a 5oz lead will keep it pinned to the deck easily.

You'll find it Jon. Good luck.

In reply to Post #14
Hi Mark

I'm drilling out small rocks and gluing in half swivels to use as weights (about 5_6 oz)
Cheap, do the job no problem and they drop off 90% of the time as well, so that parts no problem, even in sand

Best

Jon

In reply to Post #16
a plastic colander with a fish fry splatter screen will work with a bit of DIY.

Nice !!!

In reply to Post #15
How to hold bottom in fast flowing rivers ......My mate Steve Buss invented the "Pebble Rig " that we used on the Ebro back in the day to great success ...sadly i have lost all of my videos showing how to do this and Steve hasnt any on his old YT channel either
you need the flat rubber bands ( like what postmen used to use in the UK ) and flattish round pebbles / stones ( like the pebbles you would use for skimming stones across the water ) anything from 2oz ? to 5lb !!! ...attach a rubber band to a large swivel and just double the band over the pebble or criss cross it over in extreme flow
the only downside to this method is you can't cast it !! they have to be lowered either from the bank or a boat ...in our case it was always from the boat
obviously the faster the flow or further the distance the heavier the pebble ...we used it successfully upto 5lb and 800mtrs !!!
it is still in effect a bolt rig and either on the bite or you striking the pebble comes out of the band and the fish rises ...it was soo simple and soo deadly and never failed ...it was the best kept open secret back then ...and didn't cost anything and was enviromentally friendly .....no leaving leads behind !

sorry can't really help on getting the particles to the other than reiterate what other people have said

In reply to Post #18
Hi Stephen,

I'm not too sure Steve invented that. I know where he may have got the idea from though.

Before we / they started drilling and gluing half swivels in we were buying used children's wetsuits and cutting the arms and legs to make the band's and that's where it all started

on the Labe, very late 80's possibly early 90's

Steve's pioneered a lot of stuff and deserves all the credit, but if he's claiming this?
Sorry, naughty puppy......

Best

Jon

In reply to Post #19
Hi Jon
perhaps i should have worded my post a little better ....i gave the Steve the credit as i had never seen or heard of it before then and neither had any people that i fished with at the time so to us it was revolutionary
but i guess before the internet got really going people were really secret squirrells about things
so i do apologise for my bold claim
perhaps i should have said Steve's take on the Pebble rig ....but at the end of the day its a fantastic rig to use and caught me many carp back on the Thames lowering it into the white water in the weirpools ...people never did suss how i was doing it

i had a few messages correcting me lol

but one message from a mate reminded that there use to be a company that sold monster sized heavy duty PVA bags that were aimed at cat anglers you could get about 1LB of pellets in them but the downside was they were about a £1 per bag so we gave up using them... just too expensive when going through 30 or 40 a day !!!
and you had to remember to put plenty of holes in them or they would float away
not sure if their are any companys still doing this sort of bag ?

In reply to Post #20
I was looking to use them sort of bags on the canal to get a lot of bait down in the near edge of the canal,I currently use pva bags around 4”x4” at least maybe a bit bigger but these I don't cast I just fill with a mix and some liquid and cover bag with liquid too so I got plenty going on in my prepared area

In reply to Post #20
Hi Stephen,

If you want to get a lot of bait on the bottom in flow and you're dropping in from a boat or similar situation try this..

You'll need a thicker plastic bag from the supermarkets, a "hold", I use an old round doorknob and string.

Put your hand in the bag and grab the "hold" in the middle of the bottom of the bag and turn the bag inside out whilst holding on. Tie the string around the "hold" to keep it in place and the turn the bag inside out again, job done.
Then fill the bag with your bait (as I mentioned earlier I've done up to about 3 kilos so far doing this). Make sure the string has no resistance when you drop the bag into the water, for me it's from a boat. You will get air coming out when you drop it and occasionally a few bits of particle, but the water pressure seals in the rest on the way down.
Then slowly pull on the string to retrieve and the bag turns itself inside out leaving all the groundball where you want it.
I've also done this before on a gin clear lake and ended up with a nice big particle donut on the bottom.
Highly effective, cheap as chips and re usable

Hope it helps

Best

Jon

In reply to Post #22
Jon
never heard of that before ...but what a great tip thanks for sharing

In reply to Post #24
This is a very old angling trick that was used by charter skippers at least 60 years ago. Chopped fish and bran soaked in oil usually. You can get the bait tight on the bottom in any depth. Who came up with it I don't know but it was a long time ago.

In reply to Post #24

In reply to Post #25
Hi Lance,

V sorry if I made it sound like I came up with this because I certainly did not. Learnt it off a Wiley old guy when I was young, and I'm pretty sure he'd done the same

Best

Jon

In reply to Post #27
No problem Jon, no put down intended. Interesting thread. Not much new under the sun but good to pass on these old tips and tricks to the new troops. Works a treat though. Good luck.

Hi All

Just an update on this for all those who replied and were interested which I'm very grateful for.
I don't think the problem is solvable.
The only thing that may be of interest is that I made some thick burger style patties using vitalin and some other ingredients. Once on the bottom they stuck in place really well and started to dissolve into "domes"? Which slowly released until they were spent. Hasn't solved the problem of stuff going everywhere, but at least I've got a central point of release now.
I know it won't affect the European, UK or EE guys, but the vitalin is attracting mud crabs, prawns and some other stuff.
I need to find a binder that's not meat or fish based if anyone's got any thoughts?
(I've tried the coconut thing, doesn't work at all)
Best

Jon

In reply to Post #29
Any kind of sticky flour should do I guess?
You could load it with particles.
Mix it with gravel to adjust weight and add some soluble like sugar or salt to adjust breakdown time.

In reply to Post #30
What about corn syrup or a corn syrup/honey mix not sure how long it would last but i think colder water might solidify the mix a little making it heavier. Plus the attraction benefits are a major plus