In reply to Post #165
There was some long conversations between (I think) Harry Haskall and the bloke that come up with the ideas about S-Core that was published in one of the BCSG mags. Overall I think that the conclusion was that some of the theory behind it was a little flawed and the experiments performed non ideal.
I bought a bottle when it came out and similarly, found it of little use, even testing it in paste for bream and little carplets on the float.
There was some long conversations between (I think) Harry Haskall and the bloke that come up with the ideas about S-Core that was published in one of the BCSG mags. Overall I think that the conclusion was that some of the theory behind it was a little flawed and the experiments performed non ideal.
I bought a bottle when it came out and similarly, found it of little use, even testing it in paste for bream and little carplets on the float.
In reply to Post #166
The amino one is a funny one for me, makes total sense but the results in the water don't to me
End of the day a carp has to recognise our bait as a food source or an attention picker. I have used all types of baits over the years and I wish I had a pound for every fish i had seen fish come over them and didn't even take a look
One of the better ones for me was the thick L030 and on reflection I swear that was purely down to the salt content, happy to be wrong
The amino one is a funny one for me, makes total sense but the results in the water don't to me
End of the day a carp has to recognise our bait as a food source or an attention picker. I have used all types of baits over the years and I wish I had a pound for every fish i had seen fish come over them and didn't even take a look
One of the better ones for me was the thick L030 and on reflection I swear that was purely down to the salt content, happy to be wrong
In reply to Post #167
I'm very much a fun of the AA route, just thought that the S Core was not much cop, certainly nowhere near as effective as the fish/shellfish hydro's, or the production of AA's via enzymes.
Just my view tho.
I'm very much a fun of the AA route, just thought that the S Core was not much cop, certainly nowhere near as effective as the fish/shellfish hydro's, or the production of AA's via enzymes.
Just my view tho.
In reply to Post #168
Sounds similar to me mate. I am a big fan of the hydroslates.
I think it goes back to, do the fish recognise it as a food source, hence there are the more instant baits and the slow burners that once they are on it, they are on it
Suppose it's one thing having a whole load of aminos dancing around your bait but it's another for a carp to instantly be drawn to them, maybe we are playing over kill in a lot of cases and don't have a right balance.
The simple thing for me is our baits do not give the same signals as the waterworld does, aquatic life in most cases. We need something that they really want
Sounds similar to me mate. I am a big fan of the hydroslates.
I think it goes back to, do the fish recognise it as a food source, hence there are the more instant baits and the slow burners that once they are on it, they are on it
Suppose it's one thing having a whole load of aminos dancing around your bait but it's another for a carp to instantly be drawn to them, maybe we are playing over kill in a lot of cases and don't have a right balance.
The simple thing for me is our baits do not give the same signals as the waterworld does, aquatic life in most cases. We need something that they really want
In reply to Post #157
Bob, that post right there. Total sense that is.
We live in a world, where it's easier to copy something else, than to do it for yourselves. You cannot get stuck in your ways about bait, like the rest all do. Some times mad things work. I have the greatest respect for every single person on this thread. Even if we may not agree sometimes, at least every single one is trying stuff for themselves.
The bait industry mainly, is just one big copy cat. Fish meal, blah, blah, wonder bait. Rubbish.
One of the biggest understandings for a bait maker... Is the simple fact, that filling a carp right up, so it does not want to eat anymore, is not conductive to catching them. It's conductive to selling bait, but not always to catching them. The best, highest protein, amino acid laden, natural sugars filled, super boilie of all boilies... Is USELESS. If it fills them up, if it is to stodgy. This happens, and they do not feed as well as they can. Preoccupation is always king, when it comes to catching them. You need to 'make' them have it... And they will. They are eating machines, we should never get in the way of that with our 'offerings'.
This photo is a scan of a print, it's the Swirly common, from Milton Pan in Kent. It might be dead now. It is so long ago, I have hair (not ginger, it's the sun!) A Ted Baker flannel shirt on, and Nike Burt Bruins. Kids will not even know what Burt Bruins are I bet.
This fish, was meant to be so hard to catch, they all were in that lake apparently. It had the reputation locally, as a real ball breaker lake. It was just up the road from the 'Brook', where the British record lived. The Brook was packed, Milton was empty back then. A far more natural lake, with natural carp. I caught this fish in the edge. I fed this fish, 17.5kg of frozen corn. Another fish ate a bit. But this fish, ate virtually the lot. Carp are very aggressive creatures, they will butt each other when they want the other, to know something of that nature. The biggest, or near biggest fish in a lake, is always king of the castle when it comes to food. This fish, was crapping that sweetcorn out, as fast as it could eat it, on a shallow bar in the edge. I made two trips to the supermarket, and bought them out of corn. I caught that fish though, rapidly to. Swirly was very greedy indeed with corn. It could go years without being caught though on boilies. Understanding things like this, lead to better bait making.
You can't fill them up with stodgy boiled bait. If you do, long periods without eating ensue. Milks can do this a bit...
Bob, that post right there. Total sense that is.
We live in a world, where it's easier to copy something else, than to do it for yourselves. You cannot get stuck in your ways about bait, like the rest all do. Some times mad things work. I have the greatest respect for every single person on this thread. Even if we may not agree sometimes, at least every single one is trying stuff for themselves.
The bait industry mainly, is just one big copy cat. Fish meal, blah, blah, wonder bait. Rubbish.
One of the biggest understandings for a bait maker... Is the simple fact, that filling a carp right up, so it does not want to eat anymore, is not conductive to catching them. It's conductive to selling bait, but not always to catching them. The best, highest protein, amino acid laden, natural sugars filled, super boilie of all boilies... Is USELESS. If it fills them up, if it is to stodgy. This happens, and they do not feed as well as they can. Preoccupation is always king, when it comes to catching them. You need to 'make' them have it... And they will. They are eating machines, we should never get in the way of that with our 'offerings'.
This photo is a scan of a print, it's the Swirly common, from Milton Pan in Kent. It might be dead now. It is so long ago, I have hair (not ginger, it's the sun!) A Ted Baker flannel shirt on, and Nike Burt Bruins. Kids will not even know what Burt Bruins are I bet.
This fish, was meant to be so hard to catch, they all were in that lake apparently. It had the reputation locally, as a real ball breaker lake. It was just up the road from the 'Brook', where the British record lived. The Brook was packed, Milton was empty back then. A far more natural lake, with natural carp. I caught this fish in the edge. I fed this fish, 17.5kg of frozen corn. Another fish ate a bit. But this fish, ate virtually the lot. Carp are very aggressive creatures, they will butt each other when they want the other, to know something of that nature. The biggest, or near biggest fish in a lake, is always king of the castle when it comes to food. This fish, was crapping that sweetcorn out, as fast as it could eat it, on a shallow bar in the edge. I made two trips to the supermarket, and bought them out of corn. I caught that fish though, rapidly to. Swirly was very greedy indeed with corn. It could go years without being caught though on boilies. Understanding things like this, lead to better bait making.
You can't fill them up with stodgy boiled bait. If you do, long periods without eating ensue. Milks can do this a bit...
View post on imgur.com
In reply to Post #170
17.5 kilos of sweet corn is a huge amount of feed for a carp to eat, that Swirly must have been streaming it out
Is the simple fact, that filling a carp right up, so it does not want to eat anymore, is not conductive to catching them.
Or making more bait profit, LOL ! if anglers need to use LESS kilos of bait
I like to look back at the 70 & 80's milk protein trend and information from the likes of, Rod Hutchinson's Protein Mix, Geoff Kemp's Ultra & Protein mix, Nutrabaits Hi Nu Val, etc, all great baits.
But then Nutrabaits Enervite & Lockey came along with the Savay seed mixes, Cheap, low protein, high fibre content, loose textured, high vitamins and minerals.... surprisingly carp liked them and everyone's outlook changed on bait.
Think everyone is trying to simulate the old Skool protein rich base mix, pumping out amino acids straight way and holding a degree of attractors back, but in a cheaper more digestible base mix utilising attractive protein rich hydroslate liquid.
17.5 kilos of sweet corn is a huge amount of feed for a carp to eat, that Swirly must have been streaming it out
Is the simple fact, that filling a carp right up, so it does not want to eat anymore, is not conductive to catching them.
Or making more bait profit, LOL ! if anglers need to use LESS kilos of bait
I like to look back at the 70 & 80's milk protein trend and information from the likes of, Rod Hutchinson's Protein Mix, Geoff Kemp's Ultra & Protein mix, Nutrabaits Hi Nu Val, etc, all great baits.
But then Nutrabaits Enervite & Lockey came along with the Savay seed mixes, Cheap, low protein, high fibre content, loose textured, high vitamins and minerals.... surprisingly carp liked them and everyone's outlook changed on bait.
Think everyone is trying to simulate the old Skool protein rich base mix, pumping out amino acids straight way and holding a degree of attractors back, but in a cheaper more digestible base mix utilising attractive protein rich hydroslate liquid.
In reply to Post #171
17.5kg of sweetcorn is incredible, lets have it right. Carp have capabilities, that we as anglers, or even scientists, do not even understand properly I'd say. A carp, is an eating machine. In nature, it is like this...
All fish are gorgers, without anglers bait, they are actually designed this way for nature. When nature gives them a food larder... It will be plentiful, and they need to capitalise on it. Try and get a bite when a blood worm bed is kicking off. No chance. They will smash it all. They have a switch inside their head, that mother nature put there. That switch, once flicked... They turn into an eating machine and nothing will stop them. Sweetcorn is like bloodworm, mainly water. They can crap it out, as soon as they eat it. Doing both actions at the same time, both as fast as each other. A carp can eat its own body weight in a few hours... Very shocking for all I presume. Only if the food being eaten, will pass straight through. Most boilies do not do this very well.
Carp are grazers like cows, that are built to handle big quantities of natural food at any point. They have a very simple gut, it's designed to get water borne food through it quickly. When we give them stodge, we inhibit this.
I wrote somewhere else on this forum when I first joined, about making your boiled bait filled with water, before it goes into the lake. Not 'washing out', filling them with a predetermined amount of water. This is why. It's more attractive to them, and you are actually helping them to eat it! When anglers think that carp are leaving bait for a couple of days.... Because they are clever... It's far more likely, that they just do not want another 'bellyache', by eating a load of rock hard balls!
It's all quite simple really.
17.5kg of sweetcorn is incredible, lets have it right. Carp have capabilities, that we as anglers, or even scientists, do not even understand properly I'd say. A carp, is an eating machine. In nature, it is like this...
All fish are gorgers, without anglers bait, they are actually designed this way for nature. When nature gives them a food larder... It will be plentiful, and they need to capitalise on it. Try and get a bite when a blood worm bed is kicking off. No chance. They will smash it all. They have a switch inside their head, that mother nature put there. That switch, once flicked... They turn into an eating machine and nothing will stop them. Sweetcorn is like bloodworm, mainly water. They can crap it out, as soon as they eat it. Doing both actions at the same time, both as fast as each other. A carp can eat its own body weight in a few hours... Very shocking for all I presume. Only if the food being eaten, will pass straight through. Most boilies do not do this very well.
Carp are grazers like cows, that are built to handle big quantities of natural food at any point. They have a very simple gut, it's designed to get water borne food through it quickly. When we give them stodge, we inhibit this.
I wrote somewhere else on this forum when I first joined, about making your boiled bait filled with water, before it goes into the lake. Not 'washing out', filling them with a predetermined amount of water. This is why. It's more attractive to them, and you are actually helping them to eat it! When anglers think that carp are leaving bait for a couple of days.... Because they are clever... It's far more likely, that they just do not want another 'bellyache', by eating a load of rock hard balls!
It's all quite simple really.
In reply to Post #172
I have only ever seen my carp refuse boilies once in ten years and they were a sample of a very cheap euro boilie that they literally never ate (nor did the birds), some weeks they see 40k of mixed overs (even in winter) mixed with cereals and pellets and they eat it the lot. This idea of carp getting filled up and not being able to eat anymore I have not seen yet on this specific lake where the whole stock can be viewed every single day of the year. And there are no other species but carp. However on another lake in the 90s I saw a group of lads fish with huge amounts of red fishmeal boilies all through the winter and the lake completely switched off. At the time we blamed these lads for ruining it but looking back I'm not so sure. It would take an extreme amount of bait Fed to a very small group of carp to ruin their digestion in my opinion. And I have watched a 39lb mirror eat nearly 3kg of richworh ultraplex in half an hour. Eating machines......definitely, clogging them up with boilies, I can't say that I have ever physically seen this happen yet. Let's be honest here how many anglers ever get to fish a lake where you can see everything happening? Most lakes we have no idea what bait has gone, what's left, what they picked out and what they left behind. The syndicate I'm on we all know for 100 percent certain and it's why it's the perfect place to design and test and film carp at the same time. Like I have said on here before. It answers most of the questions simply because it's infront of your own eyes and not a guess
I have only ever seen my carp refuse boilies once in ten years and they were a sample of a very cheap euro boilie that they literally never ate (nor did the birds), some weeks they see 40k of mixed overs (even in winter) mixed with cereals and pellets and they eat it the lot. This idea of carp getting filled up and not being able to eat anymore I have not seen yet on this specific lake where the whole stock can be viewed every single day of the year. And there are no other species but carp. However on another lake in the 90s I saw a group of lads fish with huge amounts of red fishmeal boilies all through the winter and the lake completely switched off. At the time we blamed these lads for ruining it but looking back I'm not so sure. It would take an extreme amount of bait Fed to a very small group of carp to ruin their digestion in my opinion. And I have watched a 39lb mirror eat nearly 3kg of richworh ultraplex in half an hour. Eating machines......definitely, clogging them up with boilies, I can't say that I have ever physically seen this happen yet. Let's be honest here how many anglers ever get to fish a lake where you can see everything happening? Most lakes we have no idea what bait has gone, what's left, what they picked out and what they left behind. The syndicate I'm on we all know for 100 percent certain and it's why it's the perfect place to design and test and film carp at the same time. Like I have said on here before. It answers most of the questions simply because it's infront of your own eyes and not a guess
In reply to Post #173
Also I'm sure we can all remember the photos of Gary Bayes with his wheelbarrows of nashy overs being fed to his day ticket carp, he was putting in hundreds of kilos week in week out and he told me once that he never saw them bobbin up to the surface uneaten. You do not need much bait to catch a carp and I'm an advocate of small traps and singles (bear in mind I should be telling you all to fill it in 😂
but I spent a while at linear watching the water level rise with the amount of bait going in (not literally) and I have never seen a boilie floating on the surface yet
Also I'm sure we can all remember the photos of Gary Bayes with his wheelbarrows of nashy overs being fed to his day ticket carp, he was putting in hundreds of kilos week in week out and he told me once that he never saw them bobbin up to the surface uneaten. You do not need much bait to catch a carp and I'm an advocate of small traps and singles (bear in mind I should be telling you all to fill it in 😂
but I spent a while at linear watching the water level rise with the amount of bait going in (not literally) and I have never seen a boilie floating on the surface yet
In reply to Post #174
Hi KB,
I'm sure many of us envy your lake size, natural bait testing facility.
And it shouldn't go unnoticed to those who buy their bait that, what bait you supply commercially will have been thoroughly tested.
Re clogging carp up with boilies, that's one reason for home baitmakers to address FLAA in their mixes so all the protein can be utilised upon ingestion.
BB.
Hi KB,
I'm sure many of us envy your lake size, natural bait testing facility.
And it shouldn't go unnoticed to those who buy their bait that, what bait you supply commercially will have been thoroughly tested.
Re clogging carp up with boilies, that's one reason for home baitmakers to address FLAA in their mixes so all the protein can be utilised upon ingestion.
BB.
In reply to Post #175
BB we perhaps take certain ingredients for granted these days and most good baits contain, digestive aids, yeasts, amino rich liquids etc but what must have been in the cheap baits that those carp literally wouldn't eat!!!! The thing is, i saw a one ton pallet of those baits walk out of a show a few years back.....the customer feed back would have been an Interesting read 😂 my good friend is a fish breeder and we have talked about feeding two large tanks of his stockies with two different types of feed (maybe one pellet and one boilie) to see how they are affected or how they grow over the course of a month when fed the same amount of feed every day. He has noted that certain feed products are consumed then spat out, then consumed by others. He also said that when they see a new feed and that they consume it instantly and aggressively you know the feed has some mileage. Little things like this always spark my interest but I understand that hungry carp at a constant temperature in a facility isn't always a fair test of natural Carp behaviour. I have witnessed my carp swimming over beds of tigers and showing little interest in cold water, and even leaving peanuts and maples behind whilst destroying the pellets and crushed boilies amongst it, only to go back a few hours later and eat everything. I have never ever seen those carp refuse pellets, or crushed boilie or a maggot!
BB we perhaps take certain ingredients for granted these days and most good baits contain, digestive aids, yeasts, amino rich liquids etc but what must have been in the cheap baits that those carp literally wouldn't eat!!!! The thing is, i saw a one ton pallet of those baits walk out of a show a few years back.....the customer feed back would have been an Interesting read 😂 my good friend is a fish breeder and we have talked about feeding two large tanks of his stockies with two different types of feed (maybe one pellet and one boilie) to see how they are affected or how they grow over the course of a month when fed the same amount of feed every day. He has noted that certain feed products are consumed then spat out, then consumed by others. He also said that when they see a new feed and that they consume it instantly and aggressively you know the feed has some mileage. Little things like this always spark my interest but I understand that hungry carp at a constant temperature in a facility isn't always a fair test of natural Carp behaviour. I have witnessed my carp swimming over beds of tigers and showing little interest in cold water, and even leaving peanuts and maples behind whilst destroying the pellets and crushed boilies amongst it, only to go back a few hours later and eat everything. I have never ever seen those carp refuse pellets, or crushed boilie or a maggot!
In reply to Post #176
Hi KB,
I would imagine that those cheap baits must have contained something in excess which rendered them repellent, because, I asked MM a while ago about the attraction of very simple baits and the answer was that they can be capable of emitting a good feed signal, given a favourable construction, but that a good feed signal is far more likely when using the better ingredients.
I think, your carp ignoring particles to feed on the pellets and crushed boilies is evidence that they home in on the most stimulating feed signal.
Exactly the same scenario was described by users of the UCN enzyme bait, where in their case, the carp swam over top range, commercial boilies to mop up the enzyme. They then came back to eat the others.
BB.
Hi KB,
I would imagine that those cheap baits must have contained something in excess which rendered them repellent, because, I asked MM a while ago about the attraction of very simple baits and the answer was that they can be capable of emitting a good feed signal, given a favourable construction, but that a good feed signal is far more likely when using the better ingredients.
I think, your carp ignoring particles to feed on the pellets and crushed boilies is evidence that they home in on the most stimulating feed signal.
Exactly the same scenario was described by users of the UCN enzyme bait, where in their case, the carp swam over top range, commercial boilies to mop up the enzyme. They then came back to eat the others.
BB.
In reply to Post #177
Hi
Given the pure fact that carp are THE pigs of the lake, they are the first to utilise an abundant food supply. You can dig and delve into a carps dietary requirements, receptors and amino acid profiles and end up with the possibility of disappearing up your own backside. Milk proteins were never in any of our baits at U.C.N for some of the very reasons mentioned in this thread, cost being a major implication and the fact that certain animal and vegetable proteins when used in the correct combination, are just as effective, if not more so. Enzymes in any shape or form, be it protease,(proteins)amylase (starch into sugar) or lipase( fats) are substances that catalyse the hydrolysis of each group, proteins, sugars and fats. Now there are some that I know, that have taken this the full 9 yards using all 3 groups to break down virtually everything within their baits and have had some amazing success and I tip my hat to these genius individuals for their sheer tenacity.
You see what most people tend to forget, is that enzymes are both temperature and ph specific. What that means in normal language is that each enzyme has an optimum effective working temperature and ph and different enzymes break down different bonds within lets say a protein. The key, is, if you are stupid enough like me,to attempt to try and roll commercially, is to get each enzyme to kick in at different stages of the rolling process, mixing, post boil and post freeze. |Now imagine if you will, just for a moment, in the heat of summer you are mixing within a temperature range where 2 of your chosen enzymes have similar working temps of around 22- 35 degrees. You are using eggs, the whites of which are pure albumen. What will the enzymes attack first? this is what binds/holds your mix together. Picture the scene of a compressor spitting out paste like a machine gun. The bonds within the egg whites are being broken down so the paste will not hold together.......so as you could imagine when you have a 200kg order to honour,lots of FCuks and trays of eggs being launched. Now to my point, Enzymes are, in my humble opinion, in the right hands, a massive edge, although no substitute for watercraft, common sense and application. Commercially back then in 2007, a veritable nightmare. Things have moved on in the 13 or so years since we first launched our baits. The process has not changed but the working environment needed to.
Peter Boughton BCSG member and outright argumentative barsteward knows his enzymes and is without question one of the leading brains within this field whether you like him or loathe him as I am sure some of you do and with, I would imagine good reason, has just had quite a large stroke and is rehabilitating in hospital. It will be a long road to recovery, of that I am sure, but since he has been there( his brain is intact and his speech) he now has a burning desire to take this subject to the next level. It could be very interesting. But on closing, I wish any of you who wish to take this route every ounce of success, you WILL need patience and diligence , but the end result really is something to behold when you get things right.
Enjoy the sunshine chaps
Dean
Hi
Given the pure fact that carp are THE pigs of the lake, they are the first to utilise an abundant food supply. You can dig and delve into a carps dietary requirements, receptors and amino acid profiles and end up with the possibility of disappearing up your own backside. Milk proteins were never in any of our baits at U.C.N for some of the very reasons mentioned in this thread, cost being a major implication and the fact that certain animal and vegetable proteins when used in the correct combination, are just as effective, if not more so. Enzymes in any shape or form, be it protease,(proteins)amylase (starch into sugar) or lipase( fats) are substances that catalyse the hydrolysis of each group, proteins, sugars and fats. Now there are some that I know, that have taken this the full 9 yards using all 3 groups to break down virtually everything within their baits and have had some amazing success and I tip my hat to these genius individuals for their sheer tenacity.
You see what most people tend to forget, is that enzymes are both temperature and ph specific. What that means in normal language is that each enzyme has an optimum effective working temperature and ph and different enzymes break down different bonds within lets say a protein. The key, is, if you are stupid enough like me,to attempt to try and roll commercially, is to get each enzyme to kick in at different stages of the rolling process, mixing, post boil and post freeze. |Now imagine if you will, just for a moment, in the heat of summer you are mixing within a temperature range where 2 of your chosen enzymes have similar working temps of around 22- 35 degrees. You are using eggs, the whites of which are pure albumen. What will the enzymes attack first? this is what binds/holds your mix together. Picture the scene of a compressor spitting out paste like a machine gun. The bonds within the egg whites are being broken down so the paste will not hold together.......so as you could imagine when you have a 200kg order to honour,lots of FCuks and trays of eggs being launched. Now to my point, Enzymes are, in my humble opinion, in the right hands, a massive edge, although no substitute for watercraft, common sense and application. Commercially back then in 2007, a veritable nightmare. Things have moved on in the 13 or so years since we first launched our baits. The process has not changed but the working environment needed to.
Peter Boughton BCSG member and outright argumentative barsteward knows his enzymes and is without question one of the leading brains within this field whether you like him or loathe him as I am sure some of you do and with, I would imagine good reason, has just had quite a large stroke and is rehabilitating in hospital. It will be a long road to recovery, of that I am sure, but since he has been there( his brain is intact and his speech) he now has a burning desire to take this subject to the next level. It could be very interesting. But on closing, I wish any of you who wish to take this route every ounce of success, you WILL need patience and diligence , but the end result really is something to behold when you get things right.
Enjoy the sunshine chaps
Dean
In reply to Post #178
Peter Boughton BCSG member has just had quite a large stroke and is rehabilitating in hospital. It will be a long road to recovery, of that I am sure, his brain is intact and his speech.
I wish Pete a full and speedy recovery
Get back to health first mate.
Peter Boughton BCSG member has just had quite a large stroke and is rehabilitating in hospital. It will be a long road to recovery, of that I am sure, his brain is intact and his speech.
I wish Pete a full and speedy recovery
Get back to health first mate.
In reply to Post #179
Hi scaley
He is doing well sir. His movement has been compromised, mainly, his right side but gradually with physio, it is coming back.
Hi scaley
He is doing well sir. His movement has been compromised, mainly, his right side but gradually with physio, it is coming back.