Hey guys,
Diving a bit deeper into the world of essential oils lately, I stumbled across possibilities to make an generally hydrophobic essential oil water soluble by using solubilizer like LV 41. I guess this may also be used in products promoted as „EO based water soluble liquids“ like the ones sold by feedstim. Having read through the lengthy discussions about EO on here, I haven‘t really found something in this regard. Anyone having experiences with using solubilzer in conjunction with EOs? I'm in particular wondering if the solubilizer itself may have an negative impact on the EO‘s attraction (yes I have read Loeb‘s study 😅
?
Diving a bit deeper into the world of essential oils lately, I stumbled across possibilities to make an generally hydrophobic essential oil water soluble by using solubilizer like LV 41. I guess this may also be used in products promoted as „EO based water soluble liquids“ like the ones sold by feedstim. Having read through the lengthy discussions about EO on here, I haven‘t really found something in this regard. Anyone having experiences with using solubilzer in conjunction with EOs? I'm in particular wondering if the solubilizer itself may have an negative impact on the EO‘s attraction (yes I have read Loeb‘s study 😅
?
In reply to Post #1
Better to use something you understand like glycerol or propylene glycol
Better to use something you understand like glycerol or propylene glycol
In reply to Post #2
But that would then only serve as some kind of carrier without making the EO itself water soluble, right?
But that would then only serve as some kind of carrier without making the EO itself water soluble, right?
In reply to Post #2
LV41 is a Polyethyleenglycol caster oil aiding the emulsion of oil in water. Lecithine also could be used... But if your using eggs to prepare your bait you don't need any. Lecithine is already present in eggs
LV41 is a Polyethyleenglycol caster oil aiding the emulsion of oil in water. Lecithine also could be used... But if your using eggs to prepare your bait you don't need any. Lecithine is already present in eggs
In reply to Post #5
That's indeed correct, EOs are not an oil in the proper (chemical) sense of the word but most of them are, however, also hydrophobic, meaning they won't aren't soluble in water.
You're of course right stating that they work properly without any additional additives, but - as often the case with bait stuff - I'm just curious
That's indeed correct, EOs are not an oil in the proper (chemical) sense of the word but most of them are, however, also hydrophobic, meaning they won't aren't soluble in water.
You're of course right stating that they work properly without any additional additives, but - as often the case with bait stuff - I'm just curious
In reply to Post #4
Thanks a lot for your thoughts, it Lecthin would of course also suit for this purpose. However, I were thinking about the production of glugs or soaks, where usually there is no eg present.
Thanks a lot for your thoughts, it Lecthin would of course also suit for this purpose. However, I were thinking about the production of glugs or soaks, where usually there is no eg present.
In reply to Post #6
" EOs are not an oil in the proper (chemical) sense of the word but most of them are, however, also hydrophobic, meaning they won't aren't soluble in water."
As far as I understand even those components described as "insoluble in water" is slightly soluble.
If you take some of the main components of black pepper oil they all are very slightly soluble in water.
These are the main components of (one) BPO. This may differ on where it is made etc.
3-carene (29.21%), D-limonene (20.94%), β-caryophyllene,(15.05%), α- pinene (4.69%), and β-pinene (9.77%)
Looking at the solubility in water, this is what I found. All is in milligram per litre:
3-carene 4.581 mg/L
D-limonene 13.8 mg/L
B-caryophyllene 0.05011 mg/L
a-pinene 2.49 mg/L
B-pinene 7.061 mg/l
Whether this is very relevant I do not know, but to me it seems the term "insoluble" is misunderstood.
" EOs are not an oil in the proper (chemical) sense of the word but most of them are, however, also hydrophobic, meaning they won't aren't soluble in water."
As far as I understand even those components described as "insoluble in water" is slightly soluble.
If you take some of the main components of black pepper oil they all are very slightly soluble in water.
These are the main components of (one) BPO. This may differ on where it is made etc.
3-carene (29.21%), D-limonene (20.94%), β-caryophyllene,(15.05%), α- pinene (4.69%), and β-pinene (9.77%)
Looking at the solubility in water, this is what I found. All is in milligram per litre:
3-carene 4.581 mg/L
D-limonene 13.8 mg/L
B-caryophyllene 0.05011 mg/L
a-pinene 2.49 mg/L
B-pinene 7.061 mg/l
Whether this is very relevant I do not know, but to me it seems the term "insoluble" is misunderstood.
In reply to Post #8
Of course, all things have a certain solubility but when you're talking about mg/L, you're discussing ppm levels.
Example:
3-carene 4.6mg/L = 4.6ppm
This means, 4.6 parts per million.
When you take into account the molecular weights of both.
You get that for every 100mol of water, 0,00006mol of 3-carene is dissolved or 6 out of 10 million mol water.
What is the chance a carp will detect this molecule?
Of course, all things have a certain solubility but when you're talking about mg/L, you're discussing ppm levels.
Example:
3-carene 4.6mg/L = 4.6ppm
This means, 4.6 parts per million.
When you take into account the molecular weights of both.
You get that for every 100mol of water, 0,00006mol of 3-carene is dissolved or 6 out of 10 million mol water.
What is the chance a carp will detect this molecule?
In reply to Post #9
Yes, it is in ppm levels.
I really don't know how the chances of detection are, but to my understanding treshold levels are a lot lower for some of these substances than for say amino acids.
And (to me, from my observations) there is no doubt many EOs are detected and affect fish behaviour.
Yes, it is in ppm levels.
I really don't know how the chances of detection are, but to my understanding treshold levels are a lot lower for some of these substances than for say amino acids.
And (to me, from my observations) there is no doubt many EOs are detected and affect fish behaviour.
In reply to Post #10
I use it in my baits because for me it has a good track record
To be honest I shy away from the soluble EO because they may not
Be as effective in a soluble form , this EO could be a completely different animal
I've always been wary of flavours , but feel more confident in EO
Maybe the fish can't detect it and I'm fishing with my usual unflavoured bait👍🏻
I use it in my baits because for me it has a good track record
To be honest I shy away from the soluble EO because they may not
Be as effective in a soluble form , this EO could be a completely different animal
I've always been wary of flavours , but feel more confident in EO
Maybe the fish can't detect it and I'm fishing with my usual unflavoured bait👍🏻
In reply to Post #10
I just wonder if the EO are detected or it's other chemicals that they take in the upper water layers.
Maybe it's a combination of both.
I just wonder if the EO are detected or it's other chemicals that they take in the upper water layers.
Maybe it's a combination of both.
In reply to Post #9
What is the chance a carp will detect this molecule?
When dissolved into a few million gallons of lake water
What is the chance a carp will detect this molecule?
When dissolved into a few million gallons of lake water
Something in the back of my mind is telling me that essential oils were originally used as a label because they didn't wash out of the bait and were useful for fishing in silt or leaving baits out for a long time
Point being they have uses other than attraction.
Point being they have uses other than attraction.
In reply to Post #12
I am 100% sure some is detected by carp after tank testing.
But concentrations is probably a lot higher there than in a real fishing situation.
I am 100% sure some is detected by carp after tank testing.
But concentrations is probably a lot higher there than in a real fishing situation.
In reply to Post #15
Ok. Thanks for the info!
The carp's olfactory system is still part mystery.
Different roads lead to success!
Ok. Thanks for the info!
The carp's olfactory system is still part mystery.
Different roads lead to success!