If shelf life baits are so bad at attracting fish, why do 1000s a year get caught on single Airball pop ups?
I'm not knocking anyone who will only use frozen. I was fanatical about frozen bait for years, invested in big chest freezers, then decided even frozen wasn't good so went through a stage of rolling my own and invested in rolling tables and a compressor and a cox gun and burcos etc to take it all fresh.
Now I use modern shelf life's and it's made absolutely bugger all difference to my catch rate.
I'm not knocking anyone who will only use frozen. I was fanatical about frozen bait for years, invested in big chest freezers, then decided even frozen wasn't good so went through a stage of rolling my own and invested in rolling tables and a compressor and a cox gun and burcos etc to take it all fresh.
Now I use modern shelf life's and it's made absolutely bugger all difference to my catch rate.
In reply to Post #46
That's irrelevant for me Wayne (the airball thing). Carp don't ingest pop ups, they're not food. If we put a bed of baits out with a similar content (but sinking) I'm sure we wouldn't get far.
That's irrelevant for me Wayne (the airball thing). Carp don't ingest pop ups, they're not food. If we put a bed of baits out with a similar content (but sinking) I'm sure we wouldn't get far.
In reply to Post #46
Not saying they are all bad Mr Rex, certainly seem some good ones in recent times. Chap on my Reading syndicate has done pretty well with one of the DNA fishmeal ones, certainly a good bait, mixing shelf and frozen.
But there's good.....and there's very good .....
Not saying they are all bad Mr Rex, certainly seem some good ones in recent times. Chap on my Reading syndicate has done pretty well with one of the DNA fishmeal ones, certainly a good bait, mixing shelf and frozen.
But there's good.....and there's very good .....
In reply to Post #48
>But there's good.....and there's very good ....
Wot he said
>But there's good.....and there's very good ....
Wot he said
But how much damage can freezing also cause to a bait especially one with soluble or delicate Ingrediants the same Goes for boiling or steaming. How much of a bait remains soluble once boiled ?
In reply to Post #50
Freezing causes minimal damage to a bait but over time it will dry it out (water still evaporates when frozen...just very slowly, its normally called freezer burn when it gets really bad). Frozen veg are still as good for you as fresh shop veg, notice I said 'shop veg' as possibly not as good as fresh from the garden but the difference is very small and is down to time from harvesting.
If I use circa 20% solubles in a bait it cooks fine and catches fish. If I use more they are generally too soft. If I use less they normal don't attract fish quite so well (if at all). 20% is generally accepted as the 'norm' for boiled baits and has been found by many using trial and error. You can go up to 25% with some ingredients or down to 15% with others but 20% is a good starting point.
The amount that remains in my bait after boiling is irrelevant (you could measure it but not sure how....I can measure solubility of dry ingredients but a finished bait is a lot more difficult to measure) as I know that more to start off with gives me very soft baits that break down too quickly for my use (and I like a soft bait).
If you steam your baits this level could be different, I don't steam.
Freezing causes minimal damage to a bait but over time it will dry it out (water still evaporates when frozen...just very slowly, its normally called freezer burn when it gets really bad). Frozen veg are still as good for you as fresh shop veg, notice I said 'shop veg' as possibly not as good as fresh from the garden but the difference is very small and is down to time from harvesting.
If I use circa 20% solubles in a bait it cooks fine and catches fish. If I use more they are generally too soft. If I use less they normal don't attract fish quite so well (if at all). 20% is generally accepted as the 'norm' for boiled baits and has been found by many using trial and error. You can go up to 25% with some ingredients or down to 15% with others but 20% is a good starting point.
The amount that remains in my bait after boiling is irrelevant (you could measure it but not sure how....I can measure solubility of dry ingredients but a finished bait is a lot more difficult to measure) as I know that more to start off with gives me very soft baits that break down too quickly for my use (and I like a soft bait).
If you steam your baits this level could be different, I don't steam.
In reply to Post #41
Fair explanation Sam.....
Fair explanation Sam.....
In reply to Post #47
I get your point, I was trying to be a bit controversial. What I'm getting at is I'm not sure the difference in frozen/fresh/shelf is enough to worry about anymore. I look at it like this:
Location wrong = blank You can't catch what ain't there
Rig wrong = blank Bottom bait in weed, bottom bait when a zigs needed etc
Bait = Shelflife instead of a frozen, presented perfectly for the conditions whilst on fish. I just don't see that as causing a blank
Over the years I bet loads of us have used particles or tigers etc from the jar or tin. I bet no ones ever thought these won't catch cos I didn't boil them yesterday.
I get your point, I was trying to be a bit controversial. What I'm getting at is I'm not sure the difference in frozen/fresh/shelf is enough to worry about anymore. I look at it like this:
Location wrong = blank You can't catch what ain't there
Rig wrong = blank Bottom bait in weed, bottom bait when a zigs needed etc
Bait = Shelflife instead of a frozen, presented perfectly for the conditions whilst on fish. I just don't see that as causing a blank
Over the years I bet loads of us have used particles or tigers etc from the jar or tin. I bet no ones ever thought these won't catch cos I didn't boil them yesterday.
In reply to Post #53
There are ingredients that simply do not work in a shelf life bait yet do work in a frozen bait, some bait companies might not use any of these in any of there baits so in a comparison between shelf life or frozen in there ranges there may only be minimal difference
There are ingredients that simply do not work in a shelf life bait yet do work in a frozen bait, some bait companies might not use any of these in any of there baits so in a comparison between shelf life or frozen in there ranges there may only be minimal difference
In reply to Post #53
Location is still the most important.
Next you need the fish to pick your bait up. In my experience on some waters a carp will not pick up some shelf life baits as quickly as they would a freezer bait. That's not to say they will never pick up a shelf life bait but in many situations a great freezer bait is still better then a good shelf life bait IMHO.
Rigs come last (other than bottom, popup etc). So many great anglers use the same basic of rigs year after year.
Why can you not get Cell or The Link in shelf life? Because they would not work half as well
Location is still the most important.
Next you need the fish to pick your bait up. In my experience on some waters a carp will not pick up some shelf life baits as quickly as they would a freezer bait. That's not to say they will never pick up a shelf life bait but in many situations a great freezer bait is still better then a good shelf life bait IMHO.
Rigs come last (other than bottom, popup etc). So many great anglers use the same basic of rigs year after year.
Why can you not get Cell or The Link in shelf life? Because they would not work half as well
In reply to Post #55
Why can you not get Cell or The Link in shelf life? Because they would not work half as well
Agree
When mainline brought out the shelf life dumbells I thought all my dreams had come true, a tub of activ 8 in the bottom of the rucksack for whenever I needed a change bait, plus break them in half and you had a tiny bait that stayed on the hook!
The reality, utter crap compared to the freezer bait, now whether that's enzymes, which if Mainline have been producing a bait like that for the massses over such a long time that is pretty amazing
Or there is something else going on in the sugar or fermentation department, who knows, the base mix ingredients were not exactlry HNV, pretty basic, but I found them to be worlds apart, the freezers and shelfies
Why can you not get Cell or The Link in shelf life? Because they would not work half as well
Agree
When mainline brought out the shelf life dumbells I thought all my dreams had come true, a tub of activ 8 in the bottom of the rucksack for whenever I needed a change bait, plus break them in half and you had a tiny bait that stayed on the hook!
The reality, utter crap compared to the freezer bait, now whether that's enzymes, which if Mainline have been producing a bait like that for the massses over such a long time that is pretty amazing
Or there is something else going on in the sugar or fermentation department, who knows, the base mix ingredients were not exactlry HNV, pretty basic, but I found them to be worlds apart, the freezers and shelfies
In reply to Post #56
What about the fact that maybe the mpg preserves used in modern shelf life's lowers the amount that the carp can or do digest. So perhaps small amounts make no difference but if you put out 10kg would they stop feeding before it was all consumed? The same can be said for other ingredients, small amounts perfectly digestible and attractive, excessive amounts become less tolerable. A bit like me and chocolate, I love a little bit Cadbury's dairy milk but soon get sick of it. Maybe a reason why high attract type baits are better in small amounts
What about the fact that maybe the mpg preserves used in modern shelf life's lowers the amount that the carp can or do digest. So perhaps small amounts make no difference but if you put out 10kg would they stop feeding before it was all consumed? The same can be said for other ingredients, small amounts perfectly digestible and attractive, excessive amounts become less tolerable. A bit like me and chocolate, I love a little bit Cadbury's dairy milk but soon get sick of it. Maybe a reason why high attract type baits are better in small amounts
In reply to Post #57
But is this more assumption then fact ? I can eat chocolate until it comes out me ears for expample so not everyone or everything's the same. So who's to say some carp don't like that taste of preservatives or being acidic have attraction properties.
Or how much impact does a soluble preservative have once submerged for a length of time ?
But is this more assumption then fact ? I can eat chocolate until it comes out me ears for expample so not everyone or everything's the same. So who's to say some carp don't like that taste of preservatives or being acidic have attraction properties.
Or how much impact does a soluble preservative have once submerged for a length of time ?
In reply to Post #58
It's just a guess and may be completely unfounded but my mind is cast back to 2013 and it was a time when I fed my own carp a lot of boilies over the autumn as they had a poor summer and were down in weight. I fed them loads of pellets and freezer baits and they were eating huge amounts daily. Then all of sudden they just stopped eating. The temps were pretty similar and the only thing that changed was I fed them 40kg of shelf life's over 2/3 days mixed with pellets. Now I have been around long enough to know there are a million factors that could have done that but I have often wondered what the preserve elements do to the carps digestive capabilities. Bearing in mind that when shelf life's have been tested on tank carp the results have not always been very good. Like I say it's just a thought not factual evidence
It's just a guess and may be completely unfounded but my mind is cast back to 2013 and it was a time when I fed my own carp a lot of boilies over the autumn as they had a poor summer and were down in weight. I fed them loads of pellets and freezer baits and they were eating huge amounts daily. Then all of sudden they just stopped eating. The temps were pretty similar and the only thing that changed was I fed them 40kg of shelf life's over 2/3 days mixed with pellets. Now I have been around long enough to know there are a million factors that could have done that but I have often wondered what the preserve elements do to the carps digestive capabilities. Bearing in mind that when shelf life's have been tested on tank carp the results have not always been very good. Like I say it's just a thought not factual evidence
In reply to Post #59
👍🏻 You can only go off your own findings
👍🏻 You can only go off your own findings