In reply to Post #31
Completely valid ingredients.
Soy, maize, pea, bean, pulse there is such a wide variety of source material and then you have categorised such as micronised / infested or heat treat meal products, protein isolates / concentrates etc
One thing I will say, I've not found any that necessarily get the same feeding realise as fishmeals in most scenarios, but they're handy functions and can certainly be nutrient dense. In terms of functionality virtually every individual product has its own particular traits such as a lot of the seed meals having a high fat / lipid content or maize protein fractions which are a very dense meal, or maize flours inherent property of reducing the break down time of most baits.
One thing I feel that is often overlooked is the fibre content of all of these which is usually high in the meals, it moves bait through fish faster, bad for nutritional benefits to the fish but advantageous in that you reduce the chances of fish filling up.
I don't feel the protein element is the reason that some work, for example tigernuts are a very low protein high fat bait but carp because excessively preoccupied on them.
I flirted around with a recipe for a very sustainable pea and insect based bait with optimum levels of soluble fish extracts for attraction purposes but ultimately couldn't get a consistent product for insect meals ( not a problem if a minor ingredient but it was a major constituent in the recipe ).
Certainly vegetable proteins will have a bigger role to play in the future as a sustainable component of carp baits.
Completely valid ingredients.
Soy, maize, pea, bean, pulse there is such a wide variety of source material and then you have categorised such as micronised / infested or heat treat meal products, protein isolates / concentrates etc
One thing I will say, I've not found any that necessarily get the same feeding realise as fishmeals in most scenarios, but they're handy functions and can certainly be nutrient dense. In terms of functionality virtually every individual product has its own particular traits such as a lot of the seed meals having a high fat / lipid content or maize protein fractions which are a very dense meal, or maize flours inherent property of reducing the break down time of most baits.
One thing I feel that is often overlooked is the fibre content of all of these which is usually high in the meals, it moves bait through fish faster, bad for nutritional benefits to the fish but advantageous in that you reduce the chances of fish filling up.
I don't feel the protein element is the reason that some work, for example tigernuts are a very low protein high fat bait but carp because excessively preoccupied on them.
I flirted around with a recipe for a very sustainable pea and insect based bait with optimum levels of soluble fish extracts for attraction purposes but ultimately couldn't get a consistent product for insect meals ( not a problem if a minor ingredient but it was a major constituent in the recipe ).
Certainly vegetable proteins will have a bigger role to play in the future as a sustainable component of carp baits.
DNAs Bug or switch?
Related to my initial question. Are there any time proven non-fishmeal baits that are actually nutritionally comparable or on par with a good fishmeal bait? As previously mentioned i have used a variety of fishmeal baits over the years but never really a nut bait long term for example.
I can think of many proven baits that contain no fishmeal that work and do so consistently but from what info is available I'm fairly sure such baits couldn't be classified as nutritional or food source but fall more into the attractor category.
I know a multitude of non-fishmeal baits work and in some cases despite what would seem a distinct disadvantage nutritionally continue to do so year in year out.
Ultimately what i suppose I'm asking is if you are happy using a proven bait that catches fish but doesn't necessarily provide a decent 'meal' long term? However if fish come back again and again for a less nutritionally sound bait does that not contradict the notion that food source baits always win long term?
I can think of many proven baits that contain no fishmeal that work and do so consistently but from what info is available I'm fairly sure such baits couldn't be classified as nutritional or food source but fall more into the attractor category.
I know a multitude of non-fishmeal baits work and in some cases despite what would seem a distinct disadvantage nutritionally continue to do so year in year out.
Ultimately what i suppose I'm asking is if you are happy using a proven bait that catches fish but doesn't necessarily provide a decent 'meal' long term? However if fish come back again and again for a less nutritionally sound bait does that not contradict the notion that food source baits always win long term?
In reply to Post #34
There's lots of protein, fats, sugars, milks, fibre etc in a lot of nut bait. Just because it's not coming from fishmeals doesn't mean it's not a nutritious food source. Even the common binders add something in the way of nutrition to the bait. Plus plenty of rollers add additional vitamins. And don't forget there's a lot of fresh egg in a good nut bait as well.
There's lots of protein, fats, sugars, milks, fibre etc in a lot of nut bait. Just because it's not coming from fishmeals doesn't mean it's not a nutritious food source. Even the common binders add something in the way of nutrition to the bait. Plus plenty of rollers add additional vitamins. And don't forget there's a lot of fresh egg in a good nut bait as well.
In reply to Post #34
Yes there are nut baits that are comparable to fishmeal in terms of useable protein, with a complete essential amino acid profile, and can be food source rather than just attractor baits.
Vegetable and nut meals tend to be short of one or more essential amino acids, but the addition of yeast can complete the missing essential Amino acids.
There are a few other baits that do provide a complete profile, chicken meals, meat meals, but seem to be few and far between behind the 'fashion' of nut based boilies.
Yes there are nut baits that are comparable to fishmeal in terms of useable protein, with a complete essential amino acid profile, and can be food source rather than just attractor baits.
Vegetable and nut meals tend to be short of one or more essential amino acids, but the addition of yeast can complete the missing essential Amino acids.
There are a few other baits that do provide a complete profile, chicken meals, meat meals, but seem to be few and far between behind the 'fashion' of nut based boilies.
In reply to Post #34
A few of us used a basic birdseed bait years ago, 50% Red Factor and 50% binders, added Parmesan Cheese powder, Marmite & flavour.
Pretty much most baits will be nutritious to some extent, we caught loads on the above bait as did many on similar recipes over extended periods of time, the fish put on weight and looked in great condition.
The strange thing with boiled baits is many refer to them as either HNV or Crap but there is a big area between the two that gets brushed over, what if the fan dangled bait hasn't had it's FLAA's dealt with, Vitamins & Minerals, etc.
Long term is relative, how long do you need the bait to work on a particular water? The fish are just looking for food and I still catch plenty on dog biscuits, corn, maize, maples, tiger nuts all stuff that has been used for god knows how long and many say that they don't offer much nutritionally.
I don't get hung up on bait at all these days, I do get hung up on how and where I'm using said baits and I use shelf-life boilies which many say are not as good as frozen etc.
A few of us used a basic birdseed bait years ago, 50% Red Factor and 50% binders, added Parmesan Cheese powder, Marmite & flavour.
Pretty much most baits will be nutritious to some extent, we caught loads on the above bait as did many on similar recipes over extended periods of time, the fish put on weight and looked in great condition.
The strange thing with boiled baits is many refer to them as either HNV or Crap but there is a big area between the two that gets brushed over, what if the fan dangled bait hasn't had it's FLAA's dealt with, Vitamins & Minerals, etc.
Long term is relative, how long do you need the bait to work on a particular water? The fish are just looking for food and I still catch plenty on dog biscuits, corn, maize, maples, tiger nuts all stuff that has been used for god knows how long and many say that they don't offer much nutritionally.
I don't get hung up on bait at all these days, I do get hung up on how and where I'm using said baits and I use shelf-life boilies which many say are not as good as frozen etc.
Thanks for some really good information and responses.
Given that non-fishmeal baits can be very nutritious what baits are out that work and fit this description?
Again a bait i have no first hand knowledge about but seems to be fairly well reviewed through the forums is Munch Baits Cream Seed. I'm sure i saw a video review/experience where along with reading out the ingredients on the bag the guy stated it had a crude protein content of around 32%.
Are there any users past or present with first hand experience with this bait?
Ideally i would like to fish with a bait that of course works and fish want to eat but also provides the fish with some of the goodies they need to be healthy.
Given that non-fishmeal baits can be very nutritious what baits are out that work and fit this description?
Again a bait i have no first hand knowledge about but seems to be fairly well reviewed through the forums is Munch Baits Cream Seed. I'm sure i saw a video review/experience where along with reading out the ingredients on the bag the guy stated it had a crude protein content of around 32%.
Are there any users past or present with first hand experience with this bait?
Ideally i would like to fish with a bait that of course works and fish want to eat but also provides the fish with some of the goodies they need to be healthy.
In reply to Post #38
The cream seed, bit of history...
Munch baits started out with three mixes, sold little so set up a a subsidiary company called total baits, which did two baits, one fish, one cream seed, VERY cheap. it could for £2 per kilo at shows and the owners dad remarked to me they were "good money makers". Munh baits did a rebranding and brought the cream seed bait over to their range.
The absolute roof cost for basemix components, if selling direct, is about 60% of the final product cost, so 1.20
Will it catch carp? Yes, but I've caught carp on a bare hook with a slice of cigarette filter glued to it in a PVA bag....
Also, The main component of all their liquids is glycerin ( listed as " humectant" on the bottle ) - quite why a liquid needs ones other that water it down....
BUT you pays your moneys, you do what you feel is right, but I'd take many a different bait over it.
I'd go with mad baits Nutz, poacher baits TNT, or stickys manilla for a nut based bait if I were to buy one.
Frenzy off this forum uses the TNT for donkeys years I believe, and hes a well fussy bloke
The cream seed, bit of history...
Munch baits started out with three mixes, sold little so set up a a subsidiary company called total baits, which did two baits, one fish, one cream seed, VERY cheap. it could for £2 per kilo at shows and the owners dad remarked to me they were "good money makers". Munh baits did a rebranding and brought the cream seed bait over to their range.
The absolute roof cost for basemix components, if selling direct, is about 60% of the final product cost, so 1.20
Will it catch carp? Yes, but I've caught carp on a bare hook with a slice of cigarette filter glued to it in a PVA bag....
Also, The main component of all their liquids is glycerin ( listed as " humectant" on the bottle ) - quite why a liquid needs ones other that water it down....
BUT you pays your moneys, you do what you feel is right, but I'd take many a different bait over it.
I'd go with mad baits Nutz, poacher baits TNT, or stickys manilla for a nut based bait if I were to buy one.
Frenzy off this forum uses the TNT for donkeys years I believe, and hes a well fussy bloke
In reply to Post #38
Now I have to say at the start that I've never used this bait. However I did take a very close look at it at a couple of the NA shows. Both times my impression was that it was a very low end bait. It's not something I'd personally use either. There's a lot of what in my opinion better baits already named in this thread.
Now I have to say at the start that I've never used this bait. However I did take a very close look at it at a couple of the NA shows. Both times my impression was that it was a very low end bait. It's not something I'd personally use either. There's a lot of what in my opinion better baits already named in this thread.
In reply to Post #39
Poacher Baits Tiger Nut and Maple (TNM) is not available in shelf life form, it's only available as fresh. If it was available in shelf life form, I would have recommended it to the OP as it is an excellent bait.
In reply to Post #38
I have used Munch Baits Cream Seed, bought 5Kg a few winters ago, caught a few fish on it over winter. It's a bit powdery, so as Wayne suggests in post #40, it is a low end bait. But what do you expect for something around £6 a kilo? I won't use it again, there are definitely better baits out there (Vita Lac, Live System and Tricknut to name but a few).
Poacher Baits Tiger Nut and Maple (TNM) is not available in shelf life form, it's only available as fresh. If it was available in shelf life form, I would have recommended it to the OP as it is an excellent bait.
In reply to Post #38
I have used Munch Baits Cream Seed, bought 5Kg a few winters ago, caught a few fish on it over winter. It's a bit powdery, so as Wayne suggests in post #40, it is a low end bait. But what do you expect for something around £6 a kilo? I won't use it again, there are definitely better baits out there (Vita Lac, Live System and Tricknut to name but a few).
What about Baitworks Creamino ?