In reply to Post #1
I am bringing out a product that will be a game changer in the next few months..
I am bringing out a product that will be a game changer in the next few months..
In reply to Post #16
I use a wax like crayon I can't remember where I bought them
They are sold for hooks, probably the same as below
But I read everywhere that you stroke the hook then apply heat
I heat the hook and give it a gentle wipe and it's far more effective
I use a wax like crayon I can't remember where I bought them
They are sold for hooks, probably the same as below
But I read everywhere that you stroke the hook then apply heat
I heat the hook and give it a gentle wipe and it's far more effective
In reply to Post #15
Sorry a bit of a generalised term that, It's very similar to the stuff I've seen used in the food industry, food grade grease, we just call it tallow, historical term I guess as it's what would have been used in the past
Sorry a bit of a generalised term that, It's very similar to the stuff I've seen used in the food industry, food grade grease, we just call it tallow, historical term I guess as it's what would have been used in the past
In reply to Post #18
Whatever it is it probably cost peanuts and they sell it for pounds
Be good to know if it is that food grease stuff though
Whatever it is it probably cost peanuts and they sell it for pounds
Be good to know if it is that food grease stuff though
In reply to Post #19
It will be, clear, Vaseline type stuff but edible at a push😉 Pound tins are about a fiver!!
As an aside I've been messing about with heat, bluing the point and then quenching in a little oil, olive btw. It does seem to deter rust forming and also acts to re case harden the points. Once done you struggle to touch it with a standard file, whether the point becomes too brittle I've not found it to so far. Also a polished finish rather than just a filed one will be less susceptible to rust, less surface area etc.
It will be, clear, Vaseline type stuff but edible at a push😉 Pound tins are about a fiver!!
As an aside I've been messing about with heat, bluing the point and then quenching in a little oil, olive btw. It does seem to deter rust forming and also acts to re case harden the points. Once done you struggle to touch it with a standard file, whether the point becomes too brittle I've not found it to so far. Also a polished finish rather than just a filed one will be less susceptible to rust, less surface area etc.
Probably butchers grease the stuff they use on their electric meat slicers saws etc edible tasteless !!
In reply to Post #20
I've been messing about with heat, bluing the point and then quenching in a little oil, olive btw. It does seem to deter rust forming and also acts to re case harden the points.
Mate, imo you're crazy for doing that.
Hooks are not case hardened, they are through-hardened, so it's not possible to re case harden them. Besides, case hardening is for low carbon steels (not the high carbon spring steel that hooks are made from). Case hardening takes place in a controlled atmosphere (like all modern heat treatments), you'd have no hope doing it with any consistency at home.
Modern hooks are through-hardened with either a harden/temper or austemper process (unless you're ESP who use some crazy cryogenic temper process). During those processes martensite is formed during the oil quench for harden/temper or salt bath for austemper. Once finished the hardness is right in the sweet spot for spring steel. It cannot be improved.
So basically what you're doing is pointless (no pun intended lol). The absolute best you can hope for is to have a hook with the exact same properties it had before you touched it. But given you have next to no control over the atmosphere and temps it is highly likely you'll either increase hardness (ruining the critical spring characteristics of the hook i.e. making it brittle), or reducing hardness which can lead to a reduced spring rate and bending of the hook.
If you think you're seeing less rust it'll likely be because you've decarburized the steel due to heating in an open atmosphere. Not good.
What you're doing to those hooks is basically the equivalent of taking your line and rubbing it back and forth on a variety of abrasive surfaces before casting out to see what happens. It's an accident waiting to happen. I would strongly recommend you don't bother buddy.
I've been messing about with heat, bluing the point and then quenching in a little oil, olive btw. It does seem to deter rust forming and also acts to re case harden the points.
Mate, imo you're crazy for doing that.
Hooks are not case hardened, they are through-hardened, so it's not possible to re case harden them. Besides, case hardening is for low carbon steels (not the high carbon spring steel that hooks are made from). Case hardening takes place in a controlled atmosphere (like all modern heat treatments), you'd have no hope doing it with any consistency at home.
Modern hooks are through-hardened with either a harden/temper or austemper process (unless you're ESP who use some crazy cryogenic temper process). During those processes martensite is formed during the oil quench for harden/temper or salt bath for austemper. Once finished the hardness is right in the sweet spot for spring steel. It cannot be improved.
So basically what you're doing is pointless (no pun intended lol). The absolute best you can hope for is to have a hook with the exact same properties it had before you touched it. But given you have next to no control over the atmosphere and temps it is highly likely you'll either increase hardness (ruining the critical spring characteristics of the hook i.e. making it brittle), or reducing hardness which can lead to a reduced spring rate and bending of the hook.
If you think you're seeing less rust it'll likely be because you've decarburized the steel due to heating in an open atmosphere. Not good.
What you're doing to those hooks is basically the equivalent of taking your line and rubbing it back and forth on a variety of abrasive surfaces before casting out to see what happens. It's an accident waiting to happen. I would strongly recommend you don't bother buddy.
In reply to Post #22
Mate I've worked for a company for over twenty five years who specialised in all forms of heat treatment and surface finishing .. Untreated hooks will be made from low to medium carbon content steels, the hooks are case hardened in a sealed, endothermic atmosphere, quench furnace, at a temperature of around 830 deg°C ( this will take minutes to perform) then quenched in oil and then tempered back to 175 deg°C and c ooled to room temp.
If hooks were through hard ended as you state they would be brittle, snap in your hands and they're would be no way of filing them to a point after heat treatment. Try filing a file and you'll see what I mean
The reason ESP use a cryogenic process is to actual change the steels properties as you stated .
I'm only applying heat to the very tip and as it's only getting to very light straw so around 170 deg° So basically tempering back to the materials original state. The method is similar to someone seasoning a cast iron pan, heat then oil....no rust
Mate I've worked for a company for over twenty five years who specialised in all forms of heat treatment and surface finishing .. Untreated hooks will be made from low to medium carbon content steels, the hooks are case hardened in a sealed, endothermic atmosphere, quench furnace, at a temperature of around 830 deg°C ( this will take minutes to perform) then quenched in oil and then tempered back to 175 deg°C and c ooled to room temp.
If hooks were through hard ended as you state they would be brittle, snap in your hands and they're would be no way of filing them to a point after heat treatment. Try filing a file and you'll see what I mean
The reason ESP use a cryogenic process is to actual change the steels properties as you stated .
I'm only applying heat to the very tip and as it's only getting to very light straw so around 170 deg° So basically tempering back to the materials original state. The method is similar to someone seasoning a cast iron pan, heat then oil....no rust
In reply to Post #23
The cryogenic process isn't anything new. It's often used to increase hardness and strength in steels that still have austenite at room temp. The steel will be dropped into liquid nitrogen at -185c this will convert the austenite to martensite.
Most hooks will undergo a quench and temper to keep a ductility and strength in the steel. By heating the point you will effectively be normalising it back to its non treated state. Although this will potentially help the rust issue, you might have issues with the point being soft and turning over.
The cryogenic process isn't anything new. It's often used to increase hardness and strength in steels that still have austenite at room temp. The steel will be dropped into liquid nitrogen at -185c this will convert the austenite to martensite.
Most hooks will undergo a quench and temper to keep a ductility and strength in the steel. By heating the point you will effectively be normalising it back to its non treated state. Although this will potentially help the rust issue, you might have issues with the point being soft and turning over.
In reply to Post #24
I agree with re cryogenics restructuring of the steel but to normalise the steel you'd need to heat it to the temperature it was heat treated to.
All I'd say is try it. File a hook down to the desired sharpness, use a flameless lighter to heat up to the barb, moving back and forth and once the colour turns straw quench it in oil. If you don't find it works or causes problems, fine.
I agree with re cryogenics restructuring of the steel but to normalise the steel you'd need to heat it to the temperature it was heat treated to.
All I'd say is try it. File a hook down to the desired sharpness, use a flameless lighter to heat up to the barb, moving back and forth and once the colour turns straw quench it in oil. If you don't find it works or causes problems, fine.
In reply to Post #23
I work in metal forming and heat treatment (the process used to manufacture hooks) and I'm going to tell you that you are wrong buddy.
Case hardening hardens the surface (obviously), it is for metals that need to resist abrasion. It leaves a soft, ductile core which is exactly what you don't want for hooks. They WILL bend.
Through-hardening, when done through harden/temper or austemper, can result in whatever hardness is required depending on atmosphere, temps, furnace passing times, etc - but you will know that with your experience.
Hooks are treated to the HV 500/600 range at the core (I know this for a fact because I've tested most brands in my lab at work) where embrittlement doesn't occur until you reach somewhere around the 800 mark.
Case hardening of low/mid carbon steels would result in a core hardness of ~ 150/200 max (which in steel terms is soft as ****).
I know why ESP use the cryogenic process, and if you check you'll see that this process is not used for low/med carbon steels (it's for high carbon and tool steel primarily).
A hook is essentially a spring, you need the higher carbon content to achieve this, and you need 500/600 at the core to provide the spring characteristics that are absolutely key to how a hook absorbs loading of force.
Files are made from tool steel and treated right up to ~HV 1000 so your example has absolutely no relevance to this convo whatsoever dude. Not sure what relevance cast iron has to formed steel either.
But hey, if you think you're doing yourself a favour messing with those hooks, fill your boots buddy
I work in metal forming and heat treatment (the process used to manufacture hooks) and I'm going to tell you that you are wrong buddy.
Case hardening hardens the surface (obviously), it is for metals that need to resist abrasion. It leaves a soft, ductile core which is exactly what you don't want for hooks. They WILL bend.
Through-hardening, when done through harden/temper or austemper, can result in whatever hardness is required depending on atmosphere, temps, furnace passing times, etc - but you will know that with your experience.
Hooks are treated to the HV 500/600 range at the core (I know this for a fact because I've tested most brands in my lab at work) where embrittlement doesn't occur until you reach somewhere around the 800 mark.
Case hardening of low/mid carbon steels would result in a core hardness of ~ 150/200 max (which in steel terms is soft as ****).
I know why ESP use the cryogenic process, and if you check you'll see that this process is not used for low/med carbon steels (it's for high carbon and tool steel primarily).
A hook is essentially a spring, you need the higher carbon content to achieve this, and you need 500/600 at the core to provide the spring characteristics that are absolutely key to how a hook absorbs loading of force.
Files are made from tool steel and treated right up to ~HV 1000 so your example has absolutely no relevance to this convo whatsoever dude. Not sure what relevance cast iron has to formed steel either.
But hey, if you think you're doing yourself a favour messing with those hooks, fill your boots buddy
In reply to Post #26
essentially if he's only heating the hook to a straw colour and quenching he's only ruining the existing temper isn't he? not heat treating?
when I made long sharp pointed objects (don't know how the rule stand on this sort of discussion) when hardening 01/D2 tool steel a cherry red was achieved in a forge then a quench in hot oil, a quick clean up on a belt grinder then a long temper in an oven and the material was then a straw colour
all that's happening heating that hook up is your ruining the temper further up the shank and de carbing the steel as yonny said. the fact you're quenching in oil will be the reason you're not getting rust, not the heating up.
just my 2Ps worth.
essentially if he's only heating the hook to a straw colour and quenching he's only ruining the existing temper isn't he? not heat treating?
when I made long sharp pointed objects (don't know how the rule stand on this sort of discussion) when hardening 01/D2 tool steel a cherry red was achieved in a forge then a quench in hot oil, a quick clean up on a belt grinder then a long temper in an oven and the material was then a straw colour
all that's happening heating that hook up is your ruining the temper further up the shank and de carbing the steel as yonny said. the fact you're quenching in oil will be the reason you're not getting rust, not the heating up.
just my 2Ps worth.
In reply to Post #27
That's the thing, you are basically baking the oil to the hook, similar to baking trays etc. The heat applies is so minimal I can hold the hook in my fingers whilst it's being applied.. it's more of a tarnishing process, it works for me, the whys and the wherefores can be debated to kingdom come, try it or don't, it's just an idea
That's the thing, you are basically baking the oil to the hook, similar to baking trays etc. The heat applies is so minimal I can hold the hook in my fingers whilst it's being applied.. it's more of a tarnishing process, it works for me, the whys and the wherefores can be debated to kingdom come, try it or don't, it's just an idea
In reply to Post #28
horses for courses buddy.
if it works for you then I'm not going to tell you any different.
just like people who hate the fact my bobbins weight 40grams and are tied to my buzz bars with paracord
some people shudder when they see it.
horses for courses buddy.
if it works for you then I'm not going to tell you any different.
just like people who hate the fact my bobbins weight 40grams and are tied to my buzz bars with paracord
some people shudder when they see it.
In reply to Post #27
It depends on what process was used (harden/temper vs. austemper) but yes buddy, he'll be ruining the temper. The point is that it is not possible to improve the characteristics of the treated steel, it's already exactly where it needs to be.
It depends on what process was used (harden/temper vs. austemper) but yes buddy, he'll be ruining the temper. The point is that it is not possible to improve the characteristics of the treated steel, it's already exactly where it needs to be.