How do additives like Robin Red, chili based, work if it is the oils from the chilis that the carp find attractive, taking into account water and oil don't mix? Are carp attracted to it when ingesting it or is it something they can pick up on it the water column? Would it be something worth putting in a groundbait or only add it to boilie mixes to get the most out it?
In reply to Post #1
The ingredient itself I'd of thought would be of a low food value. So I'd of thought it wouldn't be giving of to many eat me signals in the water coloum. With RR I think it's attractiveness lies in taste its basically made up of spices, sugars and oils.. Carp love all three.. adding it to something like a ground bait there not going to be ingesting to much of it to feel the benefit. Most of it will just be washed away.. it's not cheap.. just my thoughts..
The ingredient itself I'd of thought would be of a low food value. So I'd of thought it wouldn't be giving of to many eat me signals in the water coloum. With RR I think it's attractiveness lies in taste its basically made up of spices, sugars and oils.. Carp love all three.. adding it to something like a ground bait there not going to be ingesting to much of it to feel the benefit. Most of it will just be washed away.. it's not cheap.. just my thoughts..
In reply to Post #1
It's my understanding that oils act as a 'carrier' for particles & as the oil breaks down it releases them. So I'd bet that they can sense the RR through the water column & by ingestion.
I'm sure a bait guru will be along soon to correct me if I'm wrong..
As a side, IMO RR is one of the best attractors of all time & I'd use it with confidence whichever method you choose. My new club lake seems to have a preference for it. I've been using RR pellets with great success & It's not a particularly easy water.
It just works.
It's my understanding that oils act as a 'carrier' for particles & as the oil breaks down it releases them. So I'd bet that they can sense the RR through the water column & by ingestion.
I'm sure a bait guru will be along soon to correct me if I'm wrong..
As a side, IMO RR is one of the best attractors of all time & I'd use it with confidence whichever method you choose. My new club lake seems to have a preference for it. I've been using RR pellets with great success & It's not a particularly easy water.
It just works.
In reply to Post #1
First of all ask yourself is Robin Red really worth it? It's changed beyond all recognition since it's introduction into bait years ago. Only a select few from Haiths know what's really in it. I'd sooner use a top quality paprika tbh.
First of all ask yourself is Robin Red really worth it? It's changed beyond all recognition since it's introduction into bait years ago. Only a select few from Haiths know what's really in it. I'd sooner use a top quality paprika tbh.
In reply to Post #4
Hell no ! Just looked on CCM and £13.99 a KG for what is essentially spices ( probably mainly paprika ) , sugar and oil. He'd be better off doing his own thing combining the same ingredients with possibly a few additions. My spice mix is predominantly paprika with added chilli, fenugreek, garlic, tumeric and onion powder at lower levels. I'll then add any desired oil and sweet ingredients at the mixing stage. You could buy a kilo of milk protein for the prices they are charging !
Hell no ! Just looked on CCM and £13.99 a KG for what is essentially spices ( probably mainly paprika ) , sugar and oil. He'd be better off doing his own thing combining the same ingredients with possibly a few additions. My spice mix is predominantly paprika with added chilli, fenugreek, garlic, tumeric and onion powder at lower levels. I'll then add any desired oil and sweet ingredients at the mixing stage. You could buy a kilo of milk protein for the prices they are charging !
In reply to Post #4
Has it actually changed. There's a lot of peeps out there saying." This is not the same that's not the same " with all due respect don't no what there talking about. The only thing diffrent with the RR and Haiths have put it on record. Is the colouring used . As far as I'm aware the rest is the same.
Your right though Paprika an ingredient in RR is a cracking additive on its own.
Has it actually changed. There's a lot of peeps out there saying." This is not the same that's not the same " with all due respect don't no what there talking about. The only thing diffrent with the RR and Haiths have put it on record. Is the colouring used . As far as I'm aware the rest is the same.
Your right though Paprika an ingredient in RR is a cracking additive on its own.
In reply to Post #6
According to some bait manufacturers it has definitely changed - hence some baits changing to a brown from a red. The colouring has for sure but also one or two additives that were great are now prohibitively expensive so not commercially viable.
As you say, a good spice blend will get you 90% of the way there anyway and one or two spices like turmeric and paprika have some of the additives in them anyway.
According to some bait manufacturers it has definitely changed - hence some baits changing to a brown from a red. The colouring has for sure but also one or two additives that were great are now prohibitively expensive so not commercially viable.
As you say, a good spice blend will get you 90% of the way there anyway and one or two spices like turmeric and paprika have some of the additives in them anyway.
In reply to Post #6
Robin red changed after February 2005 :
In February 2005, it was discovered that some chilli powder containing the illegal Sudan 1 dye, had turned up in a batch of Worcester sauce. In subsequent weeks, it turned out that tiny quantities of the product had ended up in hundreds of other products and foods, many of which had a long shelf life.
Immediately after this scandal blow-up Robin Red was not available for a while and after wards ,the colouring ability of RR was never the same , before this change everything used with RR generally turned red ,plastic mixing bowls and the actual carp often had red bellies when fed boilies with RR in .
Robin Red has never been as powerfully red since.
Not saying RR ever had Sudan 1 in it though !
The latest change in RR has come about with the changes in rules made by the EU
A large number of dyes and ingredients are no longer allowed to be used in animal feed as the residues from them may enter the human food chain , however these same dyes and ingredients can be used directly in food products , that makes sense doesn't it.
Robin red changed after February 2005 :
In February 2005, it was discovered that some chilli powder containing the illegal Sudan 1 dye, had turned up in a batch of Worcester sauce. In subsequent weeks, it turned out that tiny quantities of the product had ended up in hundreds of other products and foods, many of which had a long shelf life.
Immediately after this scandal blow-up Robin Red was not available for a while and after wards ,the colouring ability of RR was never the same , before this change everything used with RR generally turned red ,plastic mixing bowls and the actual carp often had red bellies when fed boilies with RR in .
Robin Red has never been as powerfully red since.
Not saying RR ever had Sudan 1 in it though !
The latest change in RR has come about with the changes in rules made by the EU
A large number of dyes and ingredients are no longer allowed to be used in animal feed as the residues from them may enter the human food chain , however these same dyes and ingredients can be used directly in food products , that makes sense doesn't it.
In reply to Post #8
I believe the fish in the Darenth tip lake back in the day started to turn a shade of Red. After the late Ian Booker absolutely filled it in with a bait containing mainly Robin Red..
Has the change effected it effectiveness? Who Knows? I for one will continue to use baits containing it that's for sure.
What's the Kingfisher Red like? Is it just a RR copy?
I believe the fish in the Darenth tip lake back in the day started to turn a shade of Red. After the late Ian Booker absolutely filled it in with a bait containing mainly Robin Red..
Has the change effected it effectiveness? Who Knows? I for one will continue to use baits containing it that's for sure.
What's the Kingfisher Red like? Is it just a RR copy?
In reply to Post #7
Quote....hence some baits changing to a brown from a red.
And here's a strange coincidence for you.
At exactly the same time as what you mention happening with RR losing it's deep red colour because the dye in it was banned... Exactly the same thing happened with Paprika which also lost it's dark red colour dye. Funny coincidence that.
We have never used RR in any of our hook baits. There are far better and more economically sound products out there in my opinion. We do use a very heavy dose of human grade Paprika in our red S3. At the same time as RobinRed lost it's dye that made it that bright red.... So did Paprika. What does that tell you exactly? It tells me exactly what I have always known anyway, also what others have alluded to in this thread.
Paprika is Spanish red peppers. It's a spice that carp love. The dye was added for human eyesight. A natural product is always changing colour at different times of the year, so until Euro law changes it was always dyed dark red. Consistency on an eyesight basis is important for humans.
The dye makes no difference whatsoever to Paprikas effectiveness to carp IMO. We now add a human grade red food colouring to our red S3. Otherwise, sometimes they would be a pale red, other times they would be brown. This makes absolutely ZERO difference to the fish whatsoever. But it does effect anglers confidence that something has changed in the bait.
Just because some famous angler likes a RR fishmeal.... That does not mean that RR is anything more than Paprika with some extra little bits added. If he had been given a Paprika fishmeal for free back in the day instead of a RR fishmeal... He would have loved that just the same when it brought exactly the same results.
If you want to pay double or three times the price for a certain product when you can achieve the same results without the added carp tax.... That's totally up to you. Never been for me though.
Quote....hence some baits changing to a brown from a red.
And here's a strange coincidence for you.
At exactly the same time as what you mention happening with RR losing it's deep red colour because the dye in it was banned... Exactly the same thing happened with Paprika which also lost it's dark red colour dye. Funny coincidence that.
We have never used RR in any of our hook baits. There are far better and more economically sound products out there in my opinion. We do use a very heavy dose of human grade Paprika in our red S3. At the same time as RobinRed lost it's dye that made it that bright red.... So did Paprika. What does that tell you exactly? It tells me exactly what I have always known anyway, also what others have alluded to in this thread.
Paprika is Spanish red peppers. It's a spice that carp love. The dye was added for human eyesight. A natural product is always changing colour at different times of the year, so until Euro law changes it was always dyed dark red. Consistency on an eyesight basis is important for humans.
The dye makes no difference whatsoever to Paprikas effectiveness to carp IMO. We now add a human grade red food colouring to our red S3. Otherwise, sometimes they would be a pale red, other times they would be brown. This makes absolutely ZERO difference to the fish whatsoever. But it does effect anglers confidence that something has changed in the bait.
Just because some famous angler likes a RR fishmeal.... That does not mean that RR is anything more than Paprika with some extra little bits added. If he had been given a Paprika fishmeal for free back in the day instead of a RR fishmeal... He would have loved that just the same when it brought exactly the same results.
If you want to pay double or three times the price for a certain product when you can achieve the same results without the added carp tax.... That's totally up to you. Never been for me though.
In reply to Post #10
Some of the highest quality Paprika comes from Hungary ,though the Spanish is more commonly found here in the UK , The higher the Asta the better and more expensive it is .
In the context of paprika, "ASTA" refers to a colour scale established by the American Spice Trade Association (ASTA) to measure the brightness or intensity of the red colour in paprika. Higher ASTA numbers indicate a brighter, more vibrant red colour, which is generally associated with higher quality paprika.
Having had an interest in Carp attraction for rather a long time ,i do believe that the higher the Asta in the paprika the more attractive it is to carp.
It is fairly common to have 100 asta you can also find 120 asta Paprika with 240 asta can be found with Google and maybe higher , this may well be the best for use in bait.
Some of the highest quality Paprika comes from Hungary ,though the Spanish is more commonly found here in the UK , The higher the Asta the better and more expensive it is .
In the context of paprika, "ASTA" refers to a colour scale established by the American Spice Trade Association (ASTA) to measure the brightness or intensity of the red colour in paprika. Higher ASTA numbers indicate a brighter, more vibrant red colour, which is generally associated with higher quality paprika.
Having had an interest in Carp attraction for rather a long time ,i do believe that the higher the Asta in the paprika the more attractive it is to carp.
It is fairly common to have 100 asta you can also find 120 asta Paprika with 240 asta can be found with Google and maybe higher , this may well be the best for use in bait.
In reply to Post #11
It all seems to change colour now in my experience.
The stuff we use is extremely high grade, it goes into the restaurant industry. I'm abroad and off the top of my head could not tell you what ASTA it is. Sometimes the 5kg bags of Paprika are orangey, sometimes it's pale red. All from the same company.
One thing it NEVER is anymore, is dark, deep red like it ALWAYS used to be. Kind of like RR.
Chefs now add a red dye to certain dishes that took colouring from Paprika I am told.
Next time you go into the supermarket, look at bags of Paprika on the shelf. If there are bags with different dates on (from different batches) the bags will be completely different shades from the same producer. I even changed our supplier for a short while, thinking it was them. It was not them.
It all seems to change colour now in my experience.
The stuff we use is extremely high grade, it goes into the restaurant industry. I'm abroad and off the top of my head could not tell you what ASTA it is. Sometimes the 5kg bags of Paprika are orangey, sometimes it's pale red. All from the same company.
One thing it NEVER is anymore, is dark, deep red like it ALWAYS used to be. Kind of like RR.
Chefs now add a red dye to certain dishes that took colouring from Paprika I am told.
Next time you go into the supermarket, look at bags of Paprika on the shelf. If there are bags with different dates on (from different batches) the bags will be completely different shades from the same producer. I even changed our supplier for a short while, thinking it was them. It was not them.
One little add on. We always use Paprika 'hot'. Which is just bell peppers with the seeds & stalk left on when made. In my findings, carp show a clear preference to the hot version over the sweet Paprika (seeds & stalks removed).
It's no wonder ingredient, that's for certain. But carp absolutely love all spices. Another very oily product that carp are attracted too.
It's no wonder ingredient, that's for certain. But carp absolutely love all spices. Another very oily product that carp are attracted too.
In reply to Post #12
I generally buy 2-300 kgs at a time from an Indian wholesaler 120 Asta. Its always a good dark orange colour but I notice the difference in the bait if we have to use 100 asta.
Can say never had any that looks brown.
I generally buy 2-300 kgs at a time from an Indian wholesaler 120 Asta. Its always a good dark orange colour but I notice the difference in the bait if we have to use 100 asta.
Can say never had any that looks brown.
In reply to Post #14
When I say brown, I am talking about the finished hook baits, not the colour of the Paprika in the bag. It would have been returned if it came to us brown. If you simply Google Paprika, then look at all the various brands I doubt no two are the same shade.
The brown baits were produced from a 5kg bag that was orangey coloured. A 5kg bag of Paprika will produce literally 100's if not 1000's of tubs of hook baits, even going into the mix at 33%. We buy all of our ingredients in much smaller quantities than a freezer bait roller would. Hook baits are different. I don't like stuff laying around either. Fresh is always best with spices. They lose a lot of their natural oils once they age a bit.
I have around seventy tubs of brown S3 at work, that can't be sold. That's £1470 worth retail.
That's why we now add a food colour for consistency of colour.
When I say brown, I am talking about the finished hook baits, not the colour of the Paprika in the bag. It would have been returned if it came to us brown. If you simply Google Paprika, then look at all the various brands I doubt no two are the same shade.
The brown baits were produced from a 5kg bag that was orangey coloured. A 5kg bag of Paprika will produce literally 100's if not 1000's of tubs of hook baits, even going into the mix at 33%. We buy all of our ingredients in much smaller quantities than a freezer bait roller would. Hook baits are different. I don't like stuff laying around either. Fresh is always best with spices. They lose a lot of their natural oils once they age a bit.
I have around seventy tubs of brown S3 at work, that can't be sold. That's £1470 worth retail.
That's why we now add a food colour for consistency of colour.