I want to get back into rolling my own baits, but want to make them better for the carp.
At the moment I'm using a mix of
50% fish meal
25% Premium CLO
25% lambs milk
With salmon oil and hydro fish to add to the eggs.
I see most mixes have like 15+ ingredients, I'm wondering if you could make a hnv bait with less?
At the moment I'm using a mix of
50% fish meal
25% Premium CLO
25% lambs milk
With salmon oil and hydro fish to add to the eggs.
I see most mixes have like 15+ ingredients, I'm wondering if you could make a hnv bait with less?
In reply to Post #1
Hold firmly shut that wallet man, Power of clever marketing that is !
It's the Total opposite IMHO, less is more 👍
If you are using a good low temperature fishmeal like LT94, and CLO and lambs milk, and it covers all the FLAAs and nutritional requirements, I'd maybe add a little vitamin and minerals to it like, Selenavite E, and a bit of powwdered kelp, it rolls well enough and catches carp.
it is easier for you to order fresh ingredients, and store them, and use them quickly.
Why make bait more complicated than it needs to be ?
Hold firmly shut that wallet man, Power of clever marketing that is !
It's the Total opposite IMHO, less is more 👍
If you are using a good low temperature fishmeal like LT94, and CLO and lambs milk, and it covers all the FLAAs and nutritional requirements, I'd maybe add a little vitamin and minerals to it like, Selenavite E, and a bit of powwdered kelp, it rolls well enough and catches carp.
it is easier for you to order fresh ingredients, and store them, and use them quickly.
Why make bait more complicated than it needs to be ?
In reply to Post #1
I think as long as your bait covers all the carp's needs it's HNV. That means all the essential aminos (to aid digestion of protein etc.) and vitamins and minerals.
All the nutrition info is here: http://www.fao.org/fishery/affris/species-profiles/common-carp/nutritional-requirements/en/#:~:text=The%20daily%20requirement%20of%20common,%2Fkg%20body%20weight%2Fday.
There was a great series in Carpworld on HNV boilies. I'll try to find it later.
If you start with a 4:1 of LT-94 and PDFM you'll cover most aminos.
Edit - you also need some binder ingredients (semolina, soya etc. too). They help to "skin" the bait, and stop it breaking down too fast.
I guess the reason so many good quality baits have a large number of ingredients is like most diets - variety adds quality?
I am just getting back into all this myself though. There are members with decades of experience who will have forgotten more than i'll ever know
TBH I just bought some HNV base mix from AA baits and the fish were all over it...
I think as long as your bait covers all the carp's needs it's HNV. That means all the essential aminos (to aid digestion of protein etc.) and vitamins and minerals.
All the nutrition info is here: http://www.fao.org/fishery/affris/species-profiles/common-carp/nutritional-requirements/en/#:~:text=The%20daily%20requirement%20of%20common,%2Fkg%20body%20weight%2Fday.
There was a great series in Carpworld on HNV boilies. I'll try to find it later.
If you start with a 4:1 of LT-94 and PDFM you'll cover most aminos.
Edit - you also need some binder ingredients (semolina, soya etc. too). They help to "skin" the bait, and stop it breaking down too fast.
I guess the reason so many good quality baits have a large number of ingredients is like most diets - variety adds quality?
I am just getting back into all this myself though. There are members with decades of experience who will have forgotten more than i'll ever know
TBH I just bought some HNV base mix from AA baits and the fish were all over it...
In reply to Post #2
In reply to Post #1
For me, scaley has nailed it in his post. A balance of protein and lipids with enough cereal to hold it together and a nice bit of hydro will see you right. I've done the whole ingredients thing and tbh it's a bloody pain working out which one works with another and if you consider the cost, you could chuck in twice as much of your bait as a more complex one. Availability of a decent food source is king imo
For me, scaley has nailed it in his post. A balance of protein and lipids with enough cereal to hold it together and a nice bit of hydro will see you right. I've done the whole ingredients thing and tbh it's a bloody pain working out which one works with another and if you consider the cost, you could chuck in twice as much of your bait as a more complex one. Availability of a decent food source is king imo
In reply to Post #2
Brilliant mate thanks. I will get some kelp granules and selenivate e ordered. I get most of my bait stuff from baf British Aqua feeds
Brilliant mate thanks. I will get some kelp granules and selenivate e ordered. I get most of my bait stuff from baf British Aqua feeds
In reply to Post #3
That link is really useful mate thanks.
It doesn't roll too bad but could probably do with a little semo/soya. I don't mind the bait breaking down a little fast, i fish a water where I'm casting and putting out more bait every hour or two lol. Easy water with lots of stock lol.
That link is really useful mate thanks.
It doesn't roll too bad but could probably do with a little semo/soya. I don't mind the bait breaking down a little fast, i fish a water where I'm casting and putting out more bait every hour or two lol. Easy water with lots of stock lol.
In reply to Post #1
Nothing wrong with that bait at all. Based on the old Prem Fishbase really.
Nothing wrong with that bait at all. Based on the old Prem Fishbase really.
In reply to Post #2
Amen!
The bait listed in post 1 is a cracker and undoubtedly a lot better than some of the commercial available baits at present. A decent slug of a quality hydro and maybe some spices and you have a bait that will likely catch anywhere
Amen!
The bait listed in post 1 is a cracker and undoubtedly a lot better than some of the commercial available baits at present. A decent slug of a quality hydro and maybe some spices and you have a bait that will likely catch anywhere
In reply to Post #1
That bait is about 50% protein and 20% oil. The fish can't digest all this and will pass a lot through that could (ultimately) reduce water quality when it breaks down if a lot is put in.
Is it an HNV no (IMHO), it is to low in vitamins, minerals, carbs, fibre etc. The high oil content is not good for the fish.
Will it catch fish? Absolutely.
As already said adding Selenavite E (5-10/kg) would help a little.
You don't have to have a long list of stuff to make it better though. Kelp would be good (again as already mentioned) and nothing wrong at all in adding a bulk ingredient to reduce the others a bit i.e. semolina at 10-20% (adjust the levels if it will not roll). Semolina is made from Wheat, Wheat has a couple of compounds that carp are attracted to (any one used Hydro Wheat?)....so is semolina such a bad ingredient
I would drop the salmon oil, plenty of oils in the other 3 ingredients already.
You may find this quite a soft bait but if that works for you then great
That bait is about 50% protein and 20% oil. The fish can't digest all this and will pass a lot through that could (ultimately) reduce water quality when it breaks down if a lot is put in.
Is it an HNV no (IMHO), it is to low in vitamins, minerals, carbs, fibre etc. The high oil content is not good for the fish.
Will it catch fish? Absolutely.
As already said adding Selenavite E (5-10/kg) would help a little.
You don't have to have a long list of stuff to make it better though. Kelp would be good (again as already mentioned) and nothing wrong at all in adding a bulk ingredient to reduce the others a bit i.e. semolina at 10-20% (adjust the levels if it will not roll). Semolina is made from Wheat, Wheat has a couple of compounds that carp are attracted to (any one used Hydro Wheat?)....so is semolina such a bad ingredient
I would drop the salmon oil, plenty of oils in the other 3 ingredients already.
You may find this quite a soft bait but if that works for you then great
In reply to Post #10
Hi Smurf
That lake would have to be tiny and a huge level of bait needed before that became a problem. Think of the volume of bait some of these busy lakes get. Now 10 Uncle Jims on a small Lake doing the old heave Ho and i may agree, along with his 50kgs of salt to boot lol but then that too would not impact on any larger lake to any degree.( except the salt being cumulative in land locked bodies of water). Semolina is a great ingredient as is the calf milk. Those fish will utilise ANY abundant food source.
Is it a true HNV? No. However, it supplies enough goodies and those ingredients have been the staple base of many a successful carp bait for many years. Kelp is always a good addition. Cheap to boot.
Good luck.
Hi Smurf
That lake would have to be tiny and a huge level of bait needed before that became a problem. Think of the volume of bait some of these busy lakes get. Now 10 Uncle Jims on a small Lake doing the old heave Ho and i may agree, along with his 50kgs of salt to boot lol but then that too would not impact on any larger lake to any degree.( except the salt being cumulative in land locked bodies of water). Semolina is a great ingredient as is the calf milk. Those fish will utilise ANY abundant food source.
Is it a true HNV? No. However, it supplies enough goodies and those ingredients have been the staple base of many a successful carp bait for many years. Kelp is always a good addition. Cheap to boot.
Good luck.
In reply to Post #11
Agree this is not a true hnv bait. Protein alone does not make a hnv bait in my eyes
Agree this is not a true hnv bait. Protein alone does not make a hnv bait in my eyes
In reply to Post #12
Indeed, to me a HNV is in its name, Nutritional Value - what is good for its quarry and the fact it can utilise all of its parts to the optimum level.
Indeed, to me a HNV is in its name, Nutritional Value - what is good for its quarry and the fact it can utilise all of its parts to the optimum level.
In reply to Post #1
Personally I don't think that is an HNV bait, for the reasons Smurf covers. 'Just' protein does not make a bait HNV, it should have fats, minerals, vitamins and some carbohydrates.
To add to that I would be adding semolina, or even maize flour to assist in binding.
Personally I don't think that is an HNV bait, for the reasons Smurf covers. 'Just' protein does not make a bait HNV, it should have fats, minerals, vitamins and some carbohydrates.
To add to that I would be adding semolina, or even maize flour to assist in binding.
In reply to Post #1
I think full fat semolina is a good additive, protein content is a meaningless figure , its how thay can use a bait,
there needs, if its good you should reap the benefits, make it readily available , nutritional recognition
I think full fat semolina is a good additive, protein content is a meaningless figure , its how thay can use a bait,
there needs, if its good you should reap the benefits, make it readily available , nutritional recognition
Vitamins as much as anything else. The B vitamins in particular, as they will aid digestion.
In reply to Post #3
I've been thinking about this on and off for a while.
HNV = high nutritional value. Therefore an HNV bait should supply all of a carp's requirements for protein, fat and carbohydrates in the correct proportions, along with the right amounts of amino acids (essential for digestion at optimal levels), and vitamins for fish health.
Along with all of that it should be attractive to the fish olfactory and gustatory wise too. So smell good and be good for them.
Also we also want a bait that's easy to roll, will hold it's shape for a good while underwater, whilst not being eaten by nuisance fish etc. At the same time it needs to "leak" those attractive signals to trigger the carp to feed.
It's no wonder really there's a huge industry and lots of experts on fish nutrition and bait, because all of that isn't easy!
Fortunately carp are greedy and opportunistic fish, who will feed on pretty much anything, given the chance. That also obviously doesn't mean it's all good for them.
I was reading an interesting article recently about how even unhealthy foods will attract these fish, perhaps more so than HNV baits!?
If you think about, given the choice, which would you prefer - a healthy nutritious salad, or a dirty great Big Mac meal?
Food for thought...
I've been thinking about this on and off for a while.
HNV = high nutritional value. Therefore an HNV bait should supply all of a carp's requirements for protein, fat and carbohydrates in the correct proportions, along with the right amounts of amino acids (essential for digestion at optimal levels), and vitamins for fish health.
Along with all of that it should be attractive to the fish olfactory and gustatory wise too. So smell good and be good for them.
Also we also want a bait that's easy to roll, will hold it's shape for a good while underwater, whilst not being eaten by nuisance fish etc. At the same time it needs to "leak" those attractive signals to trigger the carp to feed.
It's no wonder really there's a huge industry and lots of experts on fish nutrition and bait, because all of that isn't easy!
Fortunately carp are greedy and opportunistic fish, who will feed on pretty much anything, given the chance. That also obviously doesn't mean it's all good for them.
I was reading an interesting article recently about how even unhealthy foods will attract these fish, perhaps more so than HNV baits!?
If you think about, given the choice, which would you prefer - a healthy nutritious salad, or a dirty great Big Mac meal?
Food for thought...
In reply to Post #17
A Chinese or takeaway is always appealing but in reality to stay healthy we learn to limit this. If carp are the same then a HNV bait is the way forward for them.
What will be better on a short session. A high attract low nutrition bait all day long. The amount of times i see anglers doing really well on runs waters with a poor bait is unreal. Nash instant action range for example
But if I wanted to have a good year on a lake I'd want them switched onto a bait that ticks as many boxes as possible.
A Chinese or takeaway is always appealing but in reality to stay healthy we learn to limit this. If carp are the same then a HNV bait is the way forward for them.
What will be better on a short session. A high attract low nutrition bait all day long. The amount of times i see anglers doing really well on runs waters with a poor bait is unreal. Nash instant action range for example
But if I wanted to have a good year on a lake I'd want them switched onto a bait that ticks as many boxes as possible.
In reply to Post #18
Absolutely agree. Plus i want the fish to be in peak condition wherever I fish. Better for them. Better for us.
I do think it may take a while for the fish to "key in" to the HNV bait. My hope is after they do, they'll be on it pretty much to the exclusion of all else.
Absolutely agree. Plus i want the fish to be in peak condition wherever I fish. Better for them. Better for us.
I do think it may take a while for the fish to "key in" to the HNV bait. My hope is after they do, they'll be on it pretty much to the exclusion of all else.
In reply to Post #18
Many of the lakes near me see an awful lot of that Nash instant action nonsence. I always say it will blow any minute, but it keeps on catching
Many of the lakes near me see an awful lot of that Nash instant action nonsence. I always say it will blow any minute, but it keeps on catching
In reply to Post #20
If that is all they are being fed, then it's is all they are going to be caught on.
Regardless IF, it is classed a Good bait or not.
If that is all they are being fed, then it's is all they are going to be caught on.
Regardless IF, it is classed a Good bait or not.
In reply to Post #21
Valid point. Ive been absolutely piling in a good quality bait and doing well on it, i wonder if everyone else will stop catching soon
Valid point. Ive been absolutely piling in a good quality bait and doing well on it, i wonder if everyone else will stop catching soon
In reply to Post #22
You are on a winner, and good quality bait and regular application
You are on a winner, and good quality bait and regular application
Lots of folks talk about bait quality.
Not many talk about bait freshness.
Not many talk about bait freshness.
In reply to Post #24
Agreed. The two go hand in hand.
Quality bait ingredients aren't quality, unless they are fresh, are they ?
And unless you make it yourself, use human/animal grade ingredients with Best before dates, and nice fresh eggs you wouldn't know would you.
As most get bait ready rolled now, you really have to go on reputation by mates, or trust your supplier, or bait roller.
Agreed. The two go hand in hand.
Quality bait ingredients aren't quality, unless they are fresh, are they ?
And unless you make it yourself, use human/animal grade ingredients with Best before dates, and nice fresh eggs you wouldn't know would you.
As most get bait ready rolled now, you really have to go on reputation by mates, or trust your supplier, or bait roller.
In reply to Post #18
A runs water with an excessive stock level is a different proposition to a water high in natural food or lower stocks where a rubbish bait can be ignored. That runs water the carp may need bait as food simply to survive.
I look on high attract baits as a 'sweet' or dessert. Put in the hookbait with a couple of freebies and they may get taken. Start piling them in and the carp may well learn they aren't doing them any good.
Fish a decent nutritional value bait and you can catch all year long.
The comment about Nash Citruz range may be simply part of the overstocked water, and fish having to eat everything.
A runs water with an excessive stock level is a different proposition to a water high in natural food or lower stocks where a rubbish bait can be ignored. That runs water the carp may need bait as food simply to survive.
I look on high attract baits as a 'sweet' or dessert. Put in the hookbait with a couple of freebies and they may get taken. Start piling them in and the carp may well learn they aren't doing them any good.
Fish a decent nutritional value bait and you can catch all year long.
The comment about Nash Citruz range may be simply part of the overstocked water, and fish having to eat everything.
What we call a "good quality fresh HNV bait" is still heavily processed though. Its like feeding someone with Protein bars and claiming that thats good fresh highly nutritious food.
My idea of fresh is bait rolled the night before a trip that has not been in the freezer.
Providing I trust the supplier of ingredients to have a high turn around on products.
Plus fresh eggs.
That's the best I can do.
Providing I trust the supplier of ingredients to have a high turn around on products.
Plus fresh eggs.
That's the best I can do.
In reply to Post #28
You would be amazed how few companies would fit that criteria
You would be amazed how few companies would fit that criteria
Probably made, left overnight to dry / harden then frozen in big batches so some baits with not be frozen for a good 24 hours.
Out of the freezer, onto a lorry for hours if not overnight before being delivered to the customers back garden or tackle shop where it possibly sits for a few more hours before going back into a freezer.
Blows the whole frozen fresh bait theory out of the window IMO hence making shelf life a viable option in terms of a commercial bait.
Out of the freezer, onto a lorry for hours if not overnight before being delivered to the customers back garden or tackle shop where it possibly sits for a few more hours before going back into a freezer.
Blows the whole frozen fresh bait theory out of the window IMO hence making shelf life a viable option in terms of a commercial bait.
In reply to Post #28
I order my bait from A.B.S, and and collect it. They put the orders into the production schedule so it's freshly made and ready to collect when you get there. With their turnover I'm confident all the ingredients are fresh enough.
I order my bait from A.B.S, and and collect it. They put the orders into the production schedule so it's freshly made and ready to collect when you get there. With their turnover I'm confident all the ingredients are fresh enough.
In reply to Post #31
Fair enough
Fair enough
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