The small club lake I fish (about 5 acres) is surrounded by trees and pretty sheltered. When the leaf drop happened mid-end of Oct the fishing absolutely crashed with no one really catching (or at least nothing on the whatsapp which was always busy over the summer). We're talking a LOT of leaves in the margins around the whole lake.
The lake also went even clearer during this time.
I could find large groups of fish no problem (they didn't look like they were feeding) and would fish to showing fish or where I knew the fish were but no catches.
My question is this - have others seen similar things on their waters? Simon Scott talks about this being a big issue for some waters and I've heard similar reflections from other anglers - leaf litter affecting the pH of the water.
The lake also went even clearer during this time.
I could find large groups of fish no problem (they didn't look like they were feeding) and would fish to showing fish or where I knew the fish were but no catches.
My question is this - have others seen similar things on their waters? Simon Scott talks about this being a big issue for some waters and I've heard similar reflections from other anglers - leaf litter affecting the pH of the water.
Read something today by Julian Cundiff regarding winter water selection...Open waters, ie ones NOT surrounded by trees, are preferable because of leaf fall creating a sudden and unpleasant Ph change. One more variable to consider in our hobby!
In reply to Post #2
So which way does it go? Do the rotting leaves cause an increase or decrease in pH values?
So which way does it go? Do the rotting leaves cause an increase or decrease in pH values?
In reply to Post #2
Yep I saw that too - it's what prompted me to post here as I've been thinking about it quite a bit. It's my first year on this lake so have no previous experience to compare it to.
Yep I saw that too - it's what prompted me to post here as I've been thinking about it quite a bit. It's my first year on this lake so have no previous experience to compare it to.
In reply to Post #1
Certain leaves start to rot down very quickly, those from Alders for example, and this can cause a quite a drop in d.o. levels. The problem can be amplified if the water is still reasonably warm, because water can hold more d.o. when colder. Oak leaves on the other hand rot very slowly because they contain tanic acid. My little water had many, many large oaks around it (gradually being reduced) and yet I never registered any great pH change once the oak leaves had gone in.
Certain leaves start to rot down very quickly, those from Alders for example, and this can cause a quite a drop in d.o. levels. The problem can be amplified if the water is still reasonably warm, because water can hold more d.o. when colder. Oak leaves on the other hand rot very slowly because they contain tanic acid. My little water had many, many large oaks around it (gradually being reduced) and yet I never registered any great pH change once the oak leaves had gone in.
In reply to Post #3
Ph drop. Depends also if the water has much of a buffer such as in hard water areas.
Ph drop. Depends also if the water has much of a buffer such as in hard water areas.
In reply to Post #6
Just speaking in regard to venues in the south I've fished the big problem is the silt build up and often sadly it leads to fish deaths as the leaf and other vegetation breaks down.
A syndicate I belong to following low oxygen levels and a significant loss of silvers during a hot summer - luckily the pumps saved the carp. And on advice from the environment agency cleared one large area of trees to allow better air flow across the lake. It looked like a warzone when they did it though it's clearly important that vegetation surrounding and in lakes is managed more now with increased temperatures we see.
Just speaking in regard to venues in the south I've fished the big problem is the silt build up and often sadly it leads to fish deaths as the leaf and other vegetation breaks down.
A syndicate I belong to following low oxygen levels and a significant loss of silvers during a hot summer - luckily the pumps saved the carp. And on advice from the environment agency cleared one large area of trees to allow better air flow across the lake. It looked like a warzone when they did it though it's clearly important that vegetation surrounding and in lakes is managed more now with increased temperatures we see.
In reply to Post #7
Unfortunately anglers don't always react in a positive way to trees being cut down, even when the reasons are explained.
Unfortunately anglers don't always react in a positive way to trees being cut down, even when the reasons are explained.
In reply to Post #7
The trees won't be cut down - it's in a large park.
However, there are a few silty areas. Most of the lake has a more solid bed with lots of silk weed and some gravel/hard spots.
The trees won't be cut down - it's in a large park.
However, there are a few silty areas. Most of the lake has a more solid bed with lots of silk weed and some gravel/hard spots.
In reply to Post #5
essesxandy, your last sentence pretty much mimics my, very limited, experience of pH changes.
As old-cornishman has said you would expect a drop in pH levels due to decaying leaf litter, but I'm not sure just how often this occurs.
I'm intending to take regular pH measurements next year on my syndicate lake. It might be interesting to see if there are any variations throughout the day, or indeed throughout the year. Just a bit concerned the cheap meters won't be accurate enough to pick up any subtle variations. I very much doubt it will have any impact on how I go about my fishing or baiting up, though there are one or two things I want to try on one rod.
essesxandy, your last sentence pretty much mimics my, very limited, experience of pH changes.
As old-cornishman has said you would expect a drop in pH levels due to decaying leaf litter, but I'm not sure just how often this occurs.
I'm intending to take regular pH measurements next year on my syndicate lake. It might be interesting to see if there are any variations throughout the day, or indeed throughout the year. Just a bit concerned the cheap meters won't be accurate enough to pick up any subtle variations. I very much doubt it will have any impact on how I go about my fishing or baiting up, though there are one or two things I want to try on one rod.
In reply to Post #1
The water I fish suffered the same, fished well up till when the leaves started to fall. We would see large groups of fish just sitting high in the water. 11 acres and heavily tree lined. That amount of leaves rotting on the bottom must change the oxygen levels also.
The water I fish suffered the same, fished well up till when the leaves started to fall. We would see large groups of fish just sitting high in the water. 11 acres and heavily tree lined. That amount of leaves rotting on the bottom must change the oxygen levels also.
In reply to Post #11
Yes, any rotting matter lowers DO levels, this obviously includes weed, reeds. lilly pads etc
Yes, any rotting matter lowers DO levels, this obviously includes weed, reeds. lilly pads etc
In reply to Post #12
. Made a huge difference to the fishing, literally nothing come out in October I don't think.
. Made a huge difference to the fishing, literally nothing come out in October I don't think.
In reply to Post #13
Even though i have a DO meter, i always know when the levels have dropped as the water almost turns black
Even though i have a DO meter, i always know when the levels have dropped as the water almost turns black
In reply to Post #1
This is exactly the same scenario on a small estate lake I fish Chris.
Speaking to the bailiff a few weeks ago about this. He has been fishing the lake for over 30 years and observed the same effect of leaf fall. Literally no bites for a 2-3 week period, then they pick up again, although interestingly, more in daytime than night.
Those who catch switch to longer hook lengths (silty) and higher pop ups, to avoid leaf debris. For some reason, chods don't appear to be very successful on this particular lake. Have you considered adjusting rigs to account for extra debris?
Good luck and hope you're back amongst them soon.
This is exactly the same scenario on a small estate lake I fish Chris.
Speaking to the bailiff a few weeks ago about this. He has been fishing the lake for over 30 years and observed the same effect of leaf fall. Literally no bites for a 2-3 week period, then they pick up again, although interestingly, more in daytime than night.
Those who catch switch to longer hook lengths (silty) and higher pop ups, to avoid leaf debris. For some reason, chods don't appear to be very successful on this particular lake. Have you considered adjusting rigs to account for extra debris?
Good luck and hope you're back amongst them soon.
Old thread I know but this happened to me yesterday.
5 days earlier the lake was covered with floating leaves blowing towards one side of the lake. I was hooking them on the cast and dragging them down. Quickly sussed what was happening and swapped to solid bags. this solved the problem and I caught 13 carp in a 5 hour session.
By yesterday the leaves had all sunk to the bottom and couldn't get a bite. Started on bottom baits and came back with leaves on the hook every chuck. Tried fishing pop ups on stiff hinge and ronnies. Even tried a zig 3 foot off the bottom.
The pop ups stopped me hooking leaves and they reeled in clear but apart from 1 carp after nearly 5 hours on a ronnie, it was a dead loss. 3 of us just had 1 fish each.
Fish were topping throughout the day but casting to them had no effect.
5 days earlier the lake was covered with floating leaves blowing towards one side of the lake. I was hooking them on the cast and dragging them down. Quickly sussed what was happening and swapped to solid bags. this solved the problem and I caught 13 carp in a 5 hour session.
By yesterday the leaves had all sunk to the bottom and couldn't get a bite. Started on bottom baits and came back with leaves on the hook every chuck. Tried fishing pop ups on stiff hinge and ronnies. Even tried a zig 3 foot off the bottom.
The pop ups stopped me hooking leaves and they reeled in clear but apart from 1 carp after nearly 5 hours on a ronnie, it was a dead loss. 3 of us just had 1 fish each.
Fish were topping throughout the day but casting to them had no effect.
In reply to Post #16
The release of tannins can quickly sour the water and repel carp from an area.
The release of tannins can quickly sour the water and repel carp from an area.
I'd suggest that anyone who fishes a heavily treelined or weedy water keeps their eyes peeled for signs that the carp are happy and let the club or owner know if you have concerns.
There are reports of waters all over the country where the fishing has suddenly died or that the d.o. levels have plummeted.
I've had my aerators running for the last two days, some have been running them 24/7 for the last couple of weeks.
There are reports of waters all over the country where the fishing has suddenly died or that the d.o. levels have plummeted.
I've had my aerators running for the last two days, some have been running them 24/7 for the last couple of weeks.
In reply to Post #18
Some quotes from the fishery management group...
These grey dull days with no sunlight, no wind, leaf litter, lack of photosynthesis from weeds and algae, algae die off, its a poor combination...
One thing to remember if you are having DO problems this time of year is that it will not be driven by photosynthesis and algae. It is likely to be a die off and leave litter type problem and so is bacteria driven and they will use oxygen 24 / 7 so you must aerate 24 /7 until the bacteria have used up all the dead material.
Some quotes from the fishery management group...
These grey dull days with no sunlight, no wind, leaf litter, lack of photosynthesis from weeds and algae, algae die off, its a poor combination...
One thing to remember if you are having DO problems this time of year is that it will not be driven by photosynthesis and algae. It is likely to be a die off and leave litter type problem and so is bacteria driven and they will use oxygen 24 / 7 so you must aerate 24 /7 until the bacteria have used up all the dead material.
In reply to Post #19
I'm the group Dave
I'm the group Dave
In reply to Post #20
I know, I'm just sharing some snippets for the general anglers to report back to their lake owners.
I know, I'm just sharing some snippets for the general anglers to report back to their lake owners.
In reply to Post #19
Few lakes down my way (Somerset) closing due to low Oxygen levels
Few lakes down my way (Somerset) closing due to low Oxygen levels
In reply to Post #1
Just to add another variable in the mix, I recently had an issue in my garden koi pond where the fish were suddenly acting strange-koi very lethargic and my sturgeon doing laps of the surface on its back! Tested the ph and it was low, 5-5.5ish iirc
Got it back on track by water changing and buffering with bicarbonate and a few days later back to normal
Now this coincided with a LOT of rain in the few days before which obviously affects the ph because rain is generally acidic , going back to the original query could it be that the same situation had occurred ie large amounts of rain/incoming rainwater and as such the issues are PH related but caused by that and the leaf fall is coincidental
Just to add another variable in the mix, I recently had an issue in my garden koi pond where the fish were suddenly acting strange-koi very lethargic and my sturgeon doing laps of the surface on its back! Tested the ph and it was low, 5-5.5ish iirc
Got it back on track by water changing and buffering with bicarbonate and a few days later back to normal
Now this coincided with a LOT of rain in the few days before which obviously affects the ph because rain is generally acidic , going back to the original query could it be that the same situation had occurred ie large amounts of rain/incoming rainwater and as such the issues are PH related but caused by that and the leaf fall is coincidental
In reply to Post #23
Low oxygen will cause a drop in pH too.
You could be buffering your pH, but the cause could be the drop in oxygen.
It won't be as drastic in a pond but pond fish are more susceptible to any minor fluctuations.
Low oxygen will cause a drop in pH too.
You could be buffering your pH, but the cause could be the drop in oxygen.
It won't be as drastic in a pond but pond fish are more susceptible to any minor fluctuations.
So I started the thread in 2020. Sadly just heard that the lake I referred to is in trouble with some fish deaths and distress due to the leaf drop & subsequent O2 crash. EA saying it's happening everywhere and they are currently out of aerators in our part of the country. Gutting.
In reply to Post #25
I ordered another aerator yesterday and the guy I spoke to, who is very experienced, said that the height of summer used to be his busiest time but over the last few years he sells far more aerators to places having problems in October.
I ordered another aerator yesterday and the guy I spoke to, who is very experienced, said that the height of summer used to be his busiest time but over the last few years he sells far more aerators to places having problems in October.
I haven't posted here in YEARS but came online to see if anyone was discussing this issue.
We just returned from a dreadful trip at Burghfield Gold Lake. A very heavily tree-lined lake with some decent fish.
From the outset, we could see the fish. There were 12 almost permanently jostling for pole position to get their faces into the water inlet pipe. We're talking mid 30s here. They looked very unhappy.
Throughout the days we would see lots of fish cruising very, very slowly just below the surface, sometimes mouthing for oxygen.
They was absolutely no interest in feeding. They did not look happy.
On top of that, the lake is absolutely overrun with crayfish. I've never seen anything like it. The margins were red with crayfish fry. And peer into the water and you would always see at least 5-6 really big ones (up to about 20cm). The reason I mention this is that throughout the trip, the crays were walking out of the lake. You'd crunch them under foot. My mate had two crawl into his bivvy during the night. Never seen or heard anything of the sort!
When I looked into this phenomenon, apparently crays leave lakes if they're overcrowded (very likely here) and/or there is insufficient oxygen in the water.
All in all, points to a fairly big problem there and after reading these earlier posts, I'll give the management company a call to advise in case they weren't aware.
James
We just returned from a dreadful trip at Burghfield Gold Lake. A very heavily tree-lined lake with some decent fish.
From the outset, we could see the fish. There were 12 almost permanently jostling for pole position to get their faces into the water inlet pipe. We're talking mid 30s here. They looked very unhappy.
Throughout the days we would see lots of fish cruising very, very slowly just below the surface, sometimes mouthing for oxygen.
They was absolutely no interest in feeding. They did not look happy.
On top of that, the lake is absolutely overrun with crayfish. I've never seen anything like it. The margins were red with crayfish fry. And peer into the water and you would always see at least 5-6 really big ones (up to about 20cm). The reason I mention this is that throughout the trip, the crays were walking out of the lake. You'd crunch them under foot. My mate had two crawl into his bivvy during the night. Never seen or heard anything of the sort!
When I looked into this phenomenon, apparently crays leave lakes if they're overcrowded (very likely here) and/or there is insufficient oxygen in the water.
All in all, points to a fairly big problem there and after reading these earlier posts, I'll give the management company a call to advise in case they weren't aware.
James
In reply to Post #27
Hi Jay, I was a member of a syndicate that had an oxygen crash where everything that could leave the water did. Snails, shrimps and eels all clamouring to get out. That went on to be the most catastrophic fish kill I've witnessed.
A couple of weekends ago a friend and I fished Yateley Pads Lake and they were having problems across all four lakes on site. My bunches of worms weren't even attacked by the silvers.
It certainly wouldn't sit well with me taking people's money when there is just about zero chance of a bite.
I fished Gold Pool about six years or so ago and there wasn't any indication that there were even crays in there then.
Hi Jay, I was a member of a syndicate that had an oxygen crash where everything that could leave the water did. Snails, shrimps and eels all clamouring to get out. That went on to be the most catastrophic fish kill I've witnessed.
A couple of weekends ago a friend and I fished Yateley Pads Lake and they were having problems across all four lakes on site. My bunches of worms weren't even attacked by the silvers.
It certainly wouldn't sit well with me taking people's money when there is just about zero chance of a bite.
I fished Gold Pool about six years or so ago and there wasn't any indication that there were even crays in there then.
In reply to Post #28
Yeah we fished it (Gold Lake) about 4 years ago, just before Covid and there were no crays then. This time, there were tens, if not hundreds of thousands and they were clearly breeding well.
There were about 5 crayfish traps that won't even touch the sides!
Yeah we fished it (Gold Lake) about 4 years ago, just before Covid and there were no crays then. This time, there were tens, if not hundreds of thousands and they were clearly breeding well.
There were about 5 crayfish traps that won't even touch the sides!
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