Hi guys do any of you use powder flavours in conjunction with liquid flavours in your bait to back up the profile if so do you use half of the recommended dose of each.
In reply to Post #1
What are you thinking of when you say flavour, your question is a bit vague?
Eg, if I were using a herb/spice flavour and a powdered version of the herb the 2 would be completely unrelated dose wise, as would it be if I were using the corresponding essential oil, both of which technically flavour the bait, but 1 to be used with extreme care (EO) and the other with abandon, within reason, if wanted (herb)
If it were say a Mulberry flavour with a Mulberry powdered palatant then I woud be a lot more cautious.
What are you thinking of when you say flavour, your question is a bit vague?
Eg, if I were using a herb/spice flavour and a powdered version of the herb the 2 would be completely unrelated dose wise, as would it be if I were using the corresponding essential oil, both of which technically flavour the bait, but 1 to be used with extreme care (EO) and the other with abandon, within reason, if wanted (herb)
If it were say a Mulberry flavour with a Mulberry powdered palatant then I woud be a lot more cautious.
In reply to Post #2
Want to use a glycol fruit base flavour with a torch of mixed herb on an oil base, really was wondering whether a powder flavour would compliment the fruit flavour and help with the longevity of the flavour giving off flavour signals. l
Want to use a glycol fruit base flavour with a torch of mixed herb on an oil base, really was wondering whether a powder flavour would compliment the fruit flavour and help with the longevity of the flavour giving off flavour signals. l
In reply to Post #3
I've been using DNA S7 since launch, Peach/Orange with 7 spices and salts, and they compliment each other very well, so I think the answer to your question is yes.
Personally preference, I'd be more comfortable using dry powdered herb than on a oil base
I'd also consider the time of year you'll be using the bait and what the baits structure is like when considering carriers for flavours.
I've been using DNA S7 since launch, Peach/Orange with 7 spices and salts, and they compliment each other very well, so I think the answer to your question is yes.
Personally preference, I'd be more comfortable using dry powdered herb than on a oil base
I'd also consider the time of year you'll be using the bait and what the baits structure is like when considering carriers for flavours.
what do you want it to do in your bait?
I think it's easy to get mixed up in adding flavors "just because" - I know I certainly have before - rather than asking why? then why again, then why again until you get to an answer that can't be taken any further.
I think there is also little true understanding about what 'flavors' do in carp baits too. Are they a smell that can be detected from a distance in nasal cavities or taste that stimulates the fish once it has eaten the bait & it's brain tells it that it is a good food source?
Does anyone really know the answers? - I certainly have never seen anything from anyone that IMO truly understands the big picture - lots of conjecture, lots of bro science or centering on specific things that contradict others findings. (betaine, salt, sugar, fats etc)
not sure this completely answers your question (LOL) but I would suggest you look at a balance - look at the ingredients that make up the flavors & see what is in each of them to give the properties they have - esters, carotenoids, polyphenols, glucosinolates and indoles. You'll see that some are attractors, some are enhancers & some are just fillers.
once you start digging, you'll see patterns start emerging - the same things repeating again & again - references to things you may have heard of used in other baits. this is where it really becomes fun IMO.
my main advice would be that it is much easier to overdo flavors than you would think - if you are going to create blends then make sure you adjust the volumes you use - 2 flavors - half the dose, 3 - 1/3rd etc - jus tbecasue there is more doesn't mean it's better & very easy to overdo.
I think it's easy to get mixed up in adding flavors "just because" - I know I certainly have before - rather than asking why? then why again, then why again until you get to an answer that can't be taken any further.
I think there is also little true understanding about what 'flavors' do in carp baits too. Are they a smell that can be detected from a distance in nasal cavities or taste that stimulates the fish once it has eaten the bait & it's brain tells it that it is a good food source?
Does anyone really know the answers? - I certainly have never seen anything from anyone that IMO truly understands the big picture - lots of conjecture, lots of bro science or centering on specific things that contradict others findings. (betaine, salt, sugar, fats etc)
not sure this completely answers your question (LOL) but I would suggest you look at a balance - look at the ingredients that make up the flavors & see what is in each of them to give the properties they have - esters, carotenoids, polyphenols, glucosinolates and indoles. You'll see that some are attractors, some are enhancers & some are just fillers.
once you start digging, you'll see patterns start emerging - the same things repeating again & again - references to things you may have heard of used in other baits. this is where it really becomes fun IMO.
my main advice would be that it is much easier to overdo flavors than you would think - if you are going to create blends then make sure you adjust the volumes you use - 2 flavors - half the dose, 3 - 1/3rd etc - jus tbecasue there is more doesn't mean it's better & very easy to overdo.
In reply to Post #1
The guys above have it spot on.
It's really hard to get to the bottom of what's in a flavour sometimes which makes it harder again to make sure you are not doubling up accidentally on any components of the flavour.
That said, I use fruit factor 6 / aa fruit sense powder at really low levels in a lot of mixes and hookbaits - in powder they are a mix of acetates, esters, aldehydes and eugenol, literally 20% or less of full recommend levels and still comes through alongside any different fishy/fruity/creamy profiles.
It might just be a head/confidence thing but I like the idea of a powder flavour/attraction release at a different rate to the liquid flavour. You definitely pick up the powder scent trace if you crack open a boilie that's been soaking a few days.
The guys above have it spot on.
It's really hard to get to the bottom of what's in a flavour sometimes which makes it harder again to make sure you are not doubling up accidentally on any components of the flavour.
That said, I use fruit factor 6 / aa fruit sense powder at really low levels in a lot of mixes and hookbaits - in powder they are a mix of acetates, esters, aldehydes and eugenol, literally 20% or less of full recommend levels and still comes through alongside any different fishy/fruity/creamy profiles.
It might just be a head/confidence thing but I like the idea of a powder flavour/attraction release at a different rate to the liquid flavour. You definitely pick up the powder scent trace if you crack open a boilie that's been soaking a few days.
Don't forget what is already in you ingredients. As an example one of my mixes has two ingredients that are already high in Vanallin. This give the rolled bait a slight creamy undertone with no other flavours added. In the finished bait I add no more powders for 'flavour' and just a little Cinnamon EO (7 drops per kg) and Fenugreek oleoresin (around 0.5ml per kg but I am about to change supply so will tweak this a bit in the spring) and no other falvours at all. The finished bait has a lovely creamy/maple/nutty type smell and taste and even after 12 hours in a 500 year old silty estate lake I can still detect it.
In reply to Post #7
What do you think is keeping the silt at bay, the base mix or the "flavours" you mention?
What do you think is keeping the silt at bay, the base mix or the "flavours" you mention?
In reply to Post #8
Nothing special in the basemix really. I think eo and oleoresin help
Nothing special in the basemix really. I think eo and oleoresin help
In reply to Post #9
Do we worry more about slot smells than the fish do tho? They're used to finding stuff that lives in silt, so will smell silty to us, but not the fish.
Do we worry more about slot smells than the fish do tho? They're used to finding stuff that lives in silt, so will smell silty to us, but not the fish.
In reply to Post #10
I seem to remember a study that found fish home in on excreted/osmotically released amino acids in silt. I have questioned before whether, if our bait still smells to us, it must be so alien in strength in silt to Carp. As someone alluded to, smell what is it to Carp, they home in on chemical signals, and certainly amino acids, perhaps a more natural route is the answer.
There was a thread on here, and a post maybe by yonny, that suggested boilies pre soaked in hydros wouldn't take on silt asmuch as already dehydrated and they'd give off attractions far more quickly v a bait that needed to take in water before being able to dissipate its contents.
I can't argue with any of that, makes perfect sense to me. It does make me wonder if that's the reason glugged hookbaits work so well on the silty meres I grew up fishing.
I seem to remember a study that found fish home in on excreted/osmotically released amino acids in silt. I have questioned before whether, if our bait still smells to us, it must be so alien in strength in silt to Carp. As someone alluded to, smell what is it to Carp, they home in on chemical signals, and certainly amino acids, perhaps a more natural route is the answer.
There was a thread on here, and a post maybe by yonny, that suggested boilies pre soaked in hydros wouldn't take on silt asmuch as already dehydrated and they'd give off attractions far more quickly v a bait that needed to take in water before being able to dissipate its contents.
I can't argue with any of that, makes perfect sense to me. It does make me wonder if that's the reason glugged hookbaits work so well on the silty meres I grew up fishing.
In reply to Post #11
Thanks for the response, I didn't mention the substrate my baits would be fishing on/in and just to add the the flavour/no flavour puzzle I'm actually fishing an ice age formed mere so yes very silty.
Thanks for the response, I didn't mention the substrate my baits would be fishing on/in and just to add the the flavour/no flavour puzzle I'm actually fishing an ice age formed mere so yes very silty.
Anything immersed in silt will still have its inherent attractor if that attractor is spread throughout the bait. The fish will know.
Amino acids ?
Electrolytes ?
Excreta ?
You'll be chasing your tail even after others have done the same for 5 decades.
Amino acids ?
Electrolytes ?
Excreta ?
You'll be chasing your tail even after others have done the same for 5 decades.
always found the concern of baits taking on a silt smell / flavor a bit of a misnomer.
for me, it's a different substrate & just because your bait comes back smelling of it, doesn't mean the carp will like it less - it's just that you notice the difference of the smell compared to if it was straight water from fishing on a clear spot - the bait isn't behaving any differently & the fish will be aware of the smell / flavor of the silt - in fact they may even have evolved to not even notice it in order to be able to detect other chemicals in the area (like how we become nose blind to smells after we are exposed to them for long periods of time)
wrt to how they detect food in silt - most likely sight feeding IMO. Just because we can't see through it, doesn't mean they can't. Their ability to detect NIR light that travels through cloudy / turbid water means that whilst we think the water is cloudy, it won't be to them & they will be able to clearly see any bloodworm / bugs that they have blown up as they rummage through the mud rather than just smelling them.
for me, it's a different substrate & just because your bait comes back smelling of it, doesn't mean the carp will like it less - it's just that you notice the difference of the smell compared to if it was straight water from fishing on a clear spot - the bait isn't behaving any differently & the fish will be aware of the smell / flavor of the silt - in fact they may even have evolved to not even notice it in order to be able to detect other chemicals in the area (like how we become nose blind to smells after we are exposed to them for long periods of time)
wrt to how they detect food in silt - most likely sight feeding IMO. Just because we can't see through it, doesn't mean they can't. Their ability to detect NIR light that travels through cloudy / turbid water means that whilst we think the water is cloudy, it won't be to them & they will be able to clearly see any bloodworm / bugs that they have blown up as they rummage through the mud rather than just smelling them.
In reply to Post #10
I didn't say I mind my baits smelling (and probably tasting) of silt just that this mix doesn't seem to do that. It may be an advantage at times but difficult to prove either way.
I didn't say I mind my baits smelling (and probably tasting) of silt just that this mix doesn't seem to do that. It may be an advantage at times but difficult to prove either way.