In reply to Post #44
Nutritional recognition is proven. But how relevant is it in a real fishing situation?
Think we have been down this road before
I think once you start with pressured fish your are fishing for something completely different to ones that have not seen much bait, carp will readily investigate and eat things for me. They know exactly what is going off in their environment, they are in tune with it. You start giving them a bad experience and they become completely different quarry for me. Tiny brain and lack of intelligence you could say but you start dragging their face off with a hook and it wouldn't take much to become cautious. Bit of an analogy but if I kicked my dog in the mouth every time it went for food it wouldn't eat it regardless how nutritional the food was, it's basic functions
This is one of the reasons I believe these fast growers in pressured ponds roll over so quickly, stress
As anglers, sometimes we are far too good at complicating things for ourselves at times for me
Nutritional recognition is proven. But how relevant is it in a real fishing situation?
Think we have been down this road before
I think once you start with pressured fish your are fishing for something completely different to ones that have not seen much bait, carp will readily investigate and eat things for me. They know exactly what is going off in their environment, they are in tune with it. You start giving them a bad experience and they become completely different quarry for me. Tiny brain and lack of intelligence you could say but you start dragging their face off with a hook and it wouldn't take much to become cautious. Bit of an analogy but if I kicked my dog in the mouth every time it went for food it wouldn't eat it regardless how nutritional the food was, it's basic functions
This is one of the reasons I believe these fast growers in pressured ponds roll over so quickly, stress
As anglers, sometimes we are far too good at complicating things for ourselves at times for me
In reply to Post #44
Nutritional recognition is proven
In the simple sense that carp can recognise food, of course it is proven, otherwise the fish would not survive.
But that was not the original meaning of the phrase ‘nutritional recognition'.
The phrase was first coined by Tim Paisley and he clearly meant that carp are capable of evaluating the nutritional value of bait on the spot, so to speak.
It was utter nonsense.
If you study the white papers on chemoreception you will see that all the highly stimulatory amino acids are the non-essential ones, so how can carp possibly measure the nutritional value of potential food?
Nutritional recognition is proven
In the simple sense that carp can recognise food, of course it is proven, otherwise the fish would not survive.
But that was not the original meaning of the phrase ‘nutritional recognition'.
The phrase was first coined by Tim Paisley and he clearly meant that carp are capable of evaluating the nutritional value of bait on the spot, so to speak.
It was utter nonsense.
If you study the white papers on chemoreception you will see that all the highly stimulatory amino acids are the non-essential ones, so how can carp possibly measure the nutritional value of potential food?
In reply to Post #45
Attraction makes a carp pick up the first bait, taste might make them pick up the next 100, for me taste is the key, in a fishing situation I want freebies they really want to eat, both to keep them in the area and feeding. If I get it right they will take a match the hatch bait before they take an alternative hookbait.
Given what we know about ingredients that attract, and improve taste, including amino acids and peptides (protein) fats and sugars with these ingredients in a bait its hard to make a good bait that doesn't have a reasonable nutritional value.
Nowadays with lots of different bait going into our waters I don't buy that a carp can identify which baits are the most nutritious. Nutritional recognition is not immediate how does a carp know which food provided it when it has probably fed on many baits and naturals over a 24 hour period. Taste on the other hand is immediate and can be linked to a specific food source, which would you prefer in a Bait!
Attraction makes a carp pick up the first bait, taste might make them pick up the next 100, for me taste is the key, in a fishing situation I want freebies they really want to eat, both to keep them in the area and feeding. If I get it right they will take a match the hatch bait before they take an alternative hookbait.
Given what we know about ingredients that attract, and improve taste, including amino acids and peptides (protein) fats and sugars with these ingredients in a bait its hard to make a good bait that doesn't have a reasonable nutritional value.
Nowadays with lots of different bait going into our waters I don't buy that a carp can identify which baits are the most nutritious. Nutritional recognition is not immediate how does a carp know which food provided it when it has probably fed on many baits and naturals over a 24 hour period. Taste on the other hand is immediate and can be linked to a specific food source, which would you prefer in a Bait!
In reply to Post #47
I am saying it is proven that carp can select different foods and by doing that adjust it's food intake to forefill its nutritional requirements. This means it somehows recognises the nutritional value of the different food items and can cherry pick what it needs. This is probably done after the food item is eaten.
On this I recommend the papers "Effect of water temperature and short-term fasting on macronutrient self-selection by common carp (Cyprinus carpio)" and "Dietary self-selection in fish: a new approach to studying fish nutrition and feeding behavior"
I don't think this is very relevant in a real fishing situation as you have zero control on what other baits is going in or the amount of different naturals in the lake. Also, you have attraction, taste and the fish learning by angling pressure as pointed out by others.
I am saying it is proven that carp can select different foods and by doing that adjust it's food intake to forefill its nutritional requirements. This means it somehows recognises the nutritional value of the different food items and can cherry pick what it needs. This is probably done after the food item is eaten.
On this I recommend the papers "Effect of water temperature and short-term fasting on macronutrient self-selection by common carp (Cyprinus carpio)" and "Dietary self-selection in fish: a new approach to studying fish nutrition and feeding behavior"
I don't think this is very relevant in a real fishing situation as you have zero control on what other baits is going in or the amount of different naturals in the lake. Also, you have attraction, taste and the fish learning by angling pressure as pointed out by others.
In reply to Post #47
Quiet correct, i suppose like everything horses for courses....
If your fishing on a syndicate lake where you have a vested interest in the fish in the lake, then a good nutritious bait will not only catch fish but will be better for the fish in the long run.... if your fishing a day ticket water just on the off chance, then yes a nutritious bait will also catch and so will a high attract bait.... but the benefit of the few kg of good bait you put in will make no difference too the fish welfare if every other angler if putting in crap bait...... Like the little bit of lettuce on your Big Mac......
I always use the same bait where ever i fish as i buy in bulk ....but on my syndicate as its quiet small and intricate i throw in any left over bait at the end of the session on my few spots..... i like to think the fish are getting confident on my bait And will eventually take this is a safe food source...... saying that if you get them feeding confidently they will hoover up anything in their path....
Same as rigs, would going back to simple rigs give you the edge.....as everyone is fishing Ronnie rig this, joe blogs rig that will all swivels, rig ring etc, so a basic rig is probably very rarely encountered by many fish.... i caught my PB on a basic knot less knot rig with 1 inch stripped back, the same rig ive used for the last 25 years....
Quiet correct, i suppose like everything horses for courses....
If your fishing on a syndicate lake where you have a vested interest in the fish in the lake, then a good nutritious bait will not only catch fish but will be better for the fish in the long run.... if your fishing a day ticket water just on the off chance, then yes a nutritious bait will also catch and so will a high attract bait.... but the benefit of the few kg of good bait you put in will make no difference too the fish welfare if every other angler if putting in crap bait...... Like the little bit of lettuce on your Big Mac......
I always use the same bait where ever i fish as i buy in bulk ....but on my syndicate as its quiet small and intricate i throw in any left over bait at the end of the session on my few spots..... i like to think the fish are getting confident on my bait And will eventually take this is a safe food source...... saying that if you get them feeding confidently they will hoover up anything in their path....
Same as rigs, would going back to simple rigs give you the edge.....as everyone is fishing Ronnie rig this, joe blogs rig that will all swivels, rig ring etc, so a basic rig is probably very rarely encountered by many fish.... i caught my PB on a basic knot less knot rig with 1 inch stripped back, the same rig ive used for the last 25 years....
In reply to Post #48
Is taste not all part of the attraction package?
If we are talking “inferior baits” you can make anything taste nice, probably what most cheaper baits are, fillers and cheaper ingredients
Wait a minute, carp can't detect sweet things, only amino's, oh no
Is taste not all part of the attraction package?
If we are talking “inferior baits” you can make anything taste nice, probably what most cheaper baits are, fillers and cheaper ingredients
Wait a minute, carp can't detect sweet things, only amino's, oh no
In reply to Post #49
Fish are very basic animals to act on instinct....take the dog analogy from Scozza, i feed my dog a fully balanced expensive dog food which has been perfectly nutritiously balanced by experts.....
Yet he still licks his b*llocks and if i put this food out in one bowl and chocolate in another he will eat the chocolate first every time, and this has elements which are poisonous to him and if ate enough would kill him....yet he would continue to eat this in preference to the proper dog food
Fish are very basic animals to act on instinct....take the dog analogy from Scozza, i feed my dog a fully balanced expensive dog food which has been perfectly nutritiously balanced by experts.....
Yet he still licks his b*llocks and if i put this food out in one bowl and chocolate in another he will eat the chocolate first every time, and this has elements which are poisonous to him and if ate enough would kill him....yet he would continue to eat this in preference to the proper dog food
In reply to Post #47
Good post. Paisley's theory was just that and has never been proven. I don't believe it myself
Good post. Paisley's theory was just that and has never been proven. I don't believe it myself