In reply to Post #42
It is worth remembering that carp, like most species, have evolved over a very long period of time to survive and flourish on what is naturally available to them,hence this will be a 'balanced' diet for them. Nature always does best.. Whether we try to mimic this balance and provide additional nourishment (therefore boosting fish feeding confidence), or create a bait that offers a good chance of getting a bite perhaps even when the fish may not really be feeding, all our offerings are superflous..
It is worth remembering that carp, like most species, have evolved over a very long period of time to survive and flourish on what is naturally available to them,hence this will be a 'balanced' diet for them. Nature always does best.. Whether we try to mimic this balance and provide additional nourishment (therefore boosting fish feeding confidence), or create a bait that offers a good chance of getting a bite perhaps even when the fish may not really be feeding, all our offerings are superflous..
In reply to Post #46
Food for thought folks! Thanks again for all the replies!
Please can someone address carbohydrate and fat digestion if possible.
Kind regards,
Gaius
Food for thought folks! Thanks again for all the replies!
Please can someone address carbohydrate and fat digestion if possible.
Kind regards,
Gaius
In reply to Post #47
Hi GB,
It seems if quality lipids and carbs are included in feed at the optimum levels: 10 to 15% for lipids and 40 to 45% for carbs, then digestion and utilisation is not an issue.
Protein utilisation is the issue because of limiting essential AAs.
Christian mentioned that some birdfeed makers include extra lysine and methionine. Why is that?
Because they will be the 1st and 2nd limiting AAs. They are balancing the protein so it can be fully utilised.
Fish and animal feed makers all do the same to balance their protein sources.
I think your initial question has been answered.
Whether a home bait maker wants to address FLAA or not is, of course, a separate issue.
BB.
Hi GB,
It seems if quality lipids and carbs are included in feed at the optimum levels: 10 to 15% for lipids and 40 to 45% for carbs, then digestion and utilisation is not an issue.
Protein utilisation is the issue because of limiting essential AAs.
Christian mentioned that some birdfeed makers include extra lysine and methionine. Why is that?
Because they will be the 1st and 2nd limiting AAs. They are balancing the protein so it can be fully utilised.
Fish and animal feed makers all do the same to balance their protein sources.
I think your initial question has been answered.
Whether a home bait maker wants to address FLAA or not is, of course, a separate issue.
BB.
In reply to Post #48
I'm not replying to anyone in particular here, just the rather confusing thread I just read. Brocacell aids digestion. If they can pooh it out faster, they can eat more. They are very simple creatures. I've seen one very big UK carp, devour nearly it's own body weight in sweetcorn in two hours. That big carp got caught. We understand so little about how much they really eat. If it's something which they can digest easily, they can pooh it out, as fast as they can eat it. Boilies don't fall into this category. Making them digestible really helps. Fish meals working well in winter??? Well if you mean you will still catch on them, you will, they eat their own crap. But if some one has a decent winter bait next to you, you'll catch nothing at all, he will. What a bait maker says to keep you buying their fish meal bait in the winter, is one thing, reality is another. That's often the way too. Leads to lots of ******** being spoken. Fish meals are superb, but in the winter? Wake up. As for gourmet carp food which is full up with protein, it's just not the way forwards in any way shape or form. Anyone who ploughs this furrow, has no clue about real life carp fishing. I see this stuff written over and over again. You want to catch them, lots of them, not fill them all up with five baits. Any of you bait buffs with your high protein theories, or fish meals in the winter theories, want to put your money where your mouth is. I'll have a ten grand bet with any of you. You can come to a runs venue, in winter with your fishmeal, or warmer climes with your high protein wonder baits. For the fish meal in winter believers, I'll bring just 60 of my baits with me. I may well catch on every single bait I bring. It will not be a fish meal. For the high protein gourmet bait lovers, I'll bring a bag of KP peanuts and a very small bucket of hemp. I'll out fish both of you's, by a long long way. So I'm happy to have a ten grand bet with any of you. Up for it? I doubt you will be. If you do, you're very silly indeed and you are going to lose ten grand. That's not being aggressive or argumentative. That's just trying to prove a small point of how silly some things being said here actually are in real life, away from the internet.
I'm not replying to anyone in particular here, just the rather confusing thread I just read. Brocacell aids digestion. If they can pooh it out faster, they can eat more. They are very simple creatures. I've seen one very big UK carp, devour nearly it's own body weight in sweetcorn in two hours. That big carp got caught. We understand so little about how much they really eat. If it's something which they can digest easily, they can pooh it out, as fast as they can eat it. Boilies don't fall into this category. Making them digestible really helps. Fish meals working well in winter??? Well if you mean you will still catch on them, you will, they eat their own crap. But if some one has a decent winter bait next to you, you'll catch nothing at all, he will. What a bait maker says to keep you buying their fish meal bait in the winter, is one thing, reality is another. That's often the way too. Leads to lots of ******** being spoken. Fish meals are superb, but in the winter? Wake up. As for gourmet carp food which is full up with protein, it's just not the way forwards in any way shape or form. Anyone who ploughs this furrow, has no clue about real life carp fishing. I see this stuff written over and over again. You want to catch them, lots of them, not fill them all up with five baits. Any of you bait buffs with your high protein theories, or fish meals in the winter theories, want to put your money where your mouth is. I'll have a ten grand bet with any of you. You can come to a runs venue, in winter with your fishmeal, or warmer climes with your high protein wonder baits. For the fish meal in winter believers, I'll bring just 60 of my baits with me. I may well catch on every single bait I bring. It will not be a fish meal. For the high protein gourmet bait lovers, I'll bring a bag of KP peanuts and a very small bucket of hemp. I'll out fish both of you's, by a long long way. So I'm happy to have a ten grand bet with any of you. Up for it? I doubt you will be. If you do, you're very silly indeed and you are going to lose ten grand. That's not being aggressive or argumentative. That's just trying to prove a small point of how silly some things being said here actually are in real life, away from the internet.
In reply to Post #49
Improving digestabilibty is massive in terms of free bait. The more of anything you can get them to eat and pooh out, the more chance you will have of catching them, simple. But, and it's a massive but. Carp fishing is not about feeding them well, it's about catching them. The very successful anglers all know this very simple fact. A bait maker will always tell you, that you have to get them onto your bait. You don't, not really, not for the very best results anyway. You see, if you have 'something', that they are not the most interested in actually eating, but will take into and out of their mouth again and again, over and over. Then you will have 'something', which will produce FAR more bites than the most digestible, soluble, delicious, boilie that was ever invented/produced. How ever much they like actually eating it. It's not about feeding them, it's all about catching them whilst you're actually fishing. If you want to be the good Samaritan, who falls for a bait companies blurb, or a famous anglers sales pitch and the 'done' thing, you probably feel better because you feed them so well while you're actually fishing. Well done you, you're a very noble person indeed. You don't catch a fraction of the fish that you could though. Because you're blinkered. 99% of carp anglers are blinkered. When your eyes open clearly, it's all very simple indeed. There are certain things that make them take your bait into and out of their mouths as I describe. It's not a boilie free bait that they really enjoy eating either. Attraction and food, should be thought of as completely separate things. For those reading who do not understand the mechanics of carp feeding on our bait, anything they will take into their mouth over and over, gets around the age old problem of carp 'getting away with it'. If they get away with it once on your rig when they try to eat it, you're not catching it on your super dooper food bait on that rod, however much they love too eat it. It's been marked as dangerous. But 'something' which actually overrides this danger signal, that they will take into their mouths over and over, four, five, six times, sucking and blowing to test it. They are not trying to 'eat' it as such. They get caught. It's a pretty simple thing, they are pretty simple/curious creatures. I choose too feed them really well, I'd wager better than anyone on this thread. But never when I'm actually fishing. Fishing for them, is just that, I want too catch them. Feeding them, is for when I'm not actually fishing.These two things do not marry up as to what 99% of carp anglers believe and practice with boilie fishing. High protein baits are not the way forwards at all. Fish meals work far better when broken right down with other ingredients, as already mentioned on this thread. The reason, because you're reducing the protein/stodgy level. Like us, they find things which are not actually the best for them, very very attractive indeed funnily enough. Nuts are so bad for them right? Terrible protein levels, blah blah blah. Must be real because the scientists tell you this? Speak to a real top angler, the very best. If they really drop their guard with you, he'll tell you that there's no boiled free bait ever been made, that is more attractive to a carp than a tiger or peanut. If he don't, he's not the carp angler that you think he is, or he's lying. So go figure. The moment nuts were broken down into nut based boiled baits, the nut was broken down into a more soluble form. One which could be processed by them far easier than a full nut. They love nuts, yes they should never be fed to them in quantities whole. But protein and scientist talk, does not change the fact that in reality, carp absolutely love nuts. It's another one of those anomalies, that does not match up to what we are told by science. I go with reality every time myself.
Improving digestabilibty is massive in terms of free bait. The more of anything you can get them to eat and pooh out, the more chance you will have of catching them, simple. But, and it's a massive but. Carp fishing is not about feeding them well, it's about catching them. The very successful anglers all know this very simple fact. A bait maker will always tell you, that you have to get them onto your bait. You don't, not really, not for the very best results anyway. You see, if you have 'something', that they are not the most interested in actually eating, but will take into and out of their mouth again and again, over and over. Then you will have 'something', which will produce FAR more bites than the most digestible, soluble, delicious, boilie that was ever invented/produced. How ever much they like actually eating it. It's not about feeding them, it's all about catching them whilst you're actually fishing. If you want to be the good Samaritan, who falls for a bait companies blurb, or a famous anglers sales pitch and the 'done' thing, you probably feel better because you feed them so well while you're actually fishing. Well done you, you're a very noble person indeed. You don't catch a fraction of the fish that you could though. Because you're blinkered. 99% of carp anglers are blinkered. When your eyes open clearly, it's all very simple indeed. There are certain things that make them take your bait into and out of their mouths as I describe. It's not a boilie free bait that they really enjoy eating either. Attraction and food, should be thought of as completely separate things. For those reading who do not understand the mechanics of carp feeding on our bait, anything they will take into their mouth over and over, gets around the age old problem of carp 'getting away with it'. If they get away with it once on your rig when they try to eat it, you're not catching it on your super dooper food bait on that rod, however much they love too eat it. It's been marked as dangerous. But 'something' which actually overrides this danger signal, that they will take into their mouths over and over, four, five, six times, sucking and blowing to test it. They are not trying to 'eat' it as such. They get caught. It's a pretty simple thing, they are pretty simple/curious creatures. I choose too feed them really well, I'd wager better than anyone on this thread. But never when I'm actually fishing. Fishing for them, is just that, I want too catch them. Feeding them, is for when I'm not actually fishing.These two things do not marry up as to what 99% of carp anglers believe and practice with boilie fishing. High protein baits are not the way forwards at all. Fish meals work far better when broken right down with other ingredients, as already mentioned on this thread. The reason, because you're reducing the protein/stodgy level. Like us, they find things which are not actually the best for them, very very attractive indeed funnily enough. Nuts are so bad for them right? Terrible protein levels, blah blah blah. Must be real because the scientists tell you this? Speak to a real top angler, the very best. If they really drop their guard with you, he'll tell you that there's no boiled free bait ever been made, that is more attractive to a carp than a tiger or peanut. If he don't, he's not the carp angler that you think he is, or he's lying. So go figure. The moment nuts were broken down into nut based boiled baits, the nut was broken down into a more soluble form. One which could be processed by them far easier than a full nut. They love nuts, yes they should never be fed to them in quantities whole. But protein and scientist talk, does not change the fact that in reality, carp absolutely love nuts. It's another one of those anomalies, that does not match up to what we are told by science. I go with reality every time myself.
In reply to Post #50
I think you've already answered your own statement ref tiger nuts with your other comments about solubility and icing sugar. There are some though that believe tigers attract by their AA content of 5%, which of course are not denatured at all by boiling for an hour or so...
I think you've already answered your own statement ref tiger nuts with your other comments about solubility and icing sugar. There are some though that believe tigers attract by their AA content of 5%, which of course are not denatured at all by boiling for an hour or so...
In reply to Post #51
Oh dear Nemisis Witch, you really actually believe that tiger nuts are made better in some way by being boiled? No I did not answer my own question. No they are not as good once you boil them. Maybe too take down the lake as whole nuts yes or you'd go carp killing. Not regarding bait production though. You are very, very wrong indeed. I thought you was a bit of a bait expert mate? Maybe sometimes you should open up your ears just a bit. You might just learn something other than the standard ABC blah blah blah. You and your scientist based friends on here, are pretty naive really when it comes to these things. Your comment, just proves this. You think you're being rather clever with their AA content. Really you're exposing that you don't really know that much in reality, about what really turns a carp on or carp bait production. Yes they have to be prepared to be used as whole nuts. No you're very wrong, they DO get denatured by boiling. Just not what you are referring too.
Oh dear Nemisis Witch, you really actually believe that tiger nuts are made better in some way by being boiled? No I did not answer my own question. No they are not as good once you boil them. Maybe too take down the lake as whole nuts yes or you'd go carp killing. Not regarding bait production though. You are very, very wrong indeed. I thought you was a bit of a bait expert mate? Maybe sometimes you should open up your ears just a bit. You might just learn something other than the standard ABC blah blah blah. You and your scientist based friends on here, are pretty naive really when it comes to these things. Your comment, just proves this. You think you're being rather clever with their AA content. Really you're exposing that you don't really know that much in reality, about what really turns a carp on or carp bait production. Yes they have to be prepared to be used as whole nuts. No you're very wrong, they DO get denatured by boiling. Just not what you are referring too.
In reply to Post #50
I have kept carp for 30 years and the two things I have seen them repeatedly leave until last is peanuts and tigers! Last winter I threw in the remains of my bait from a session on another lake combined with my mates left overs. In that bucket was hemp, pellets, crushed boilie, tigers and peanuts. The carp went mad for it and when the water cleared I could clearly see peanuts and tigers left behind. Now the following morning they were gone. I have since seen this happen on two more occasions. Hemp and pellet always goes, boilies always go, tigers and peanuts always go but often after the other things have been consumed. I will always argue a nut doesn't offer much attraction compared to a pellet or boilie but I have no doubt they do eat them. Also in all my years I have never had a carp on a tiger in winter (I have seen them eat them but not with any conviction) as I feel there are better things to use like a maggot, or pva bag of liquid. Seeing as this thread is about digestion and boilies, comparing maggots or nuts is of little use. I think we have been trying to discuss what makes a boilie more useable in cold winter rather than betting on what will give you a bite first! Maggots are banned on my winter waters, nuts produce very little to all the members who tried, and boilies make up 98 percent of all captures at the main lake (fish to 59lb). All of my fish have come to boilies, granted a fluro has accounted for a few, but your statement comes across like the protein content of bait is a deterrent. I'm sorry I don't believe that at all. As stated before. A bait needs to work on many levels and having fishmeal in any bait I have used has landed all the big carp I have ever fished for. Why does mike Willmot not make nut baits? One last thing you just said Paulie, getting carp onto your bait is not important!!! **** me you have just tried to undo the words of nearly every decent angler I know. Free meal, more visits, more visits, more chances. Hold the fish in your peg more chances.
I have kept carp for 30 years and the two things I have seen them repeatedly leave until last is peanuts and tigers! Last winter I threw in the remains of my bait from a session on another lake combined with my mates left overs. In that bucket was hemp, pellets, crushed boilie, tigers and peanuts. The carp went mad for it and when the water cleared I could clearly see peanuts and tigers left behind. Now the following morning they were gone. I have since seen this happen on two more occasions. Hemp and pellet always goes, boilies always go, tigers and peanuts always go but often after the other things have been consumed. I will always argue a nut doesn't offer much attraction compared to a pellet or boilie but I have no doubt they do eat them. Also in all my years I have never had a carp on a tiger in winter (I have seen them eat them but not with any conviction) as I feel there are better things to use like a maggot, or pva bag of liquid. Seeing as this thread is about digestion and boilies, comparing maggots or nuts is of little use. I think we have been trying to discuss what makes a boilie more useable in cold winter rather than betting on what will give you a bite first! Maggots are banned on my winter waters, nuts produce very little to all the members who tried, and boilies make up 98 percent of all captures at the main lake (fish to 59lb). All of my fish have come to boilies, granted a fluro has accounted for a few, but your statement comes across like the protein content of bait is a deterrent. I'm sorry I don't believe that at all. As stated before. A bait needs to work on many levels and having fishmeal in any bait I have used has landed all the big carp I have ever fished for. Why does mike Willmot not make nut baits? One last thing you just said Paulie, getting carp onto your bait is not important!!! **** me you have just tried to undo the words of nearly every decent angler I know. Free meal, more visits, more visits, more chances. Hold the fish in your peg more chances.
In reply to Post #52
I think you've missed the irony in my post Paul.....
However, I'll pose you a question if I may.... Why do you think tiger nuts are so successful?
I think you've missed the irony in my post Paul.....
However, I'll pose you a question if I may.... Why do you think tiger nuts are so successful?
In reply to Post #53
You sell Geoffs bagged up bait right Keeperboy? Let me hazard a guess, the MC nut or whatever you's lot call it is your best selling bait right? It's also your biggest catcher right? Five years ago if you were in business then, it was Malarky right?
Now read your post again regarding peanuts and tigers. Wow.
No a protein content of a bait is not a deterrent for FEEDING them, yes it is a deterrent to actually catching as many as you could whilst you're actually fishing. Reality, most over fished lakes now have high protein stodginess sitting on the bottom, at most times of year. Then anglers wonder why no ones catching when the lake is black with fish, you can walk across their backs nigh on. But no ones catching anything, because every sod is putting out kgs and feeding them, not actually catching them. You misunderstood my post, there is nothing about a well rounded freezer bait that they love to eat, that can not be bettered in terms of a rig, and actually catching them. There are certain things Keeperboy, that they do not try to actually eat. They suck and blow these items, and will take them into their mouth over and over again. Excitement in them, can override the danger signal, the one which which makes them leave a rejected rig. So you have two rigs on the same spot next to each other. On one rod you have the same hook bait as your super dooper loose feed. On the other you have something else. All around there are your super dooper loose feed baits. The rig with your bait on, it will get rejected once, and left alone. The other rig, will not be taken into their mouths in the same way. They will not try to eat that one as such, they will suck and blow it repeatedly. I don't need to tell you, the one which goes into and out of their gob ten times, is the one you get the bite on every single time. Their stomach is not the very best way to trick and catch them, their attraction receptors are. I hope you understand that better. No ones saying your great food bait, ain't great. But understanding what I just said, one will out fish the other 10-1 and it's not the food option.
You sell Geoffs bagged up bait right Keeperboy? Let me hazard a guess, the MC nut or whatever you's lot call it is your best selling bait right? It's also your biggest catcher right? Five years ago if you were in business then, it was Malarky right?
Now read your post again regarding peanuts and tigers. Wow.
No a protein content of a bait is not a deterrent for FEEDING them, yes it is a deterrent to actually catching as many as you could whilst you're actually fishing. Reality, most over fished lakes now have high protein stodginess sitting on the bottom, at most times of year. Then anglers wonder why no ones catching when the lake is black with fish, you can walk across their backs nigh on. But no ones catching anything, because every sod is putting out kgs and feeding them, not actually catching them. You misunderstood my post, there is nothing about a well rounded freezer bait that they love to eat, that can not be bettered in terms of a rig, and actually catching them. There are certain things Keeperboy, that they do not try to actually eat. They suck and blow these items, and will take them into their mouth over and over again. Excitement in them, can override the danger signal, the one which which makes them leave a rejected rig. So you have two rigs on the same spot next to each other. On one rod you have the same hook bait as your super dooper loose feed. On the other you have something else. All around there are your super dooper loose feed baits. The rig with your bait on, it will get rejected once, and left alone. The other rig, will not be taken into their mouths in the same way. They will not try to eat that one as such, they will suck and blow it repeatedly. I don't need to tell you, the one which goes into and out of their gob ten times, is the one you get the bite on every single time. Their stomach is not the very best way to trick and catch them, their attraction receptors are. I hope you understand that better. No ones saying your great food bait, ain't great. But understanding what I just said, one will out fish the other 10-1 and it's not the food option.
In reply to Post #54
Because they are natural and come from the ground Nemesis Witch. Mother nature knows better than any carp bait expert. They work on sugars. Every living creature on the planet depends on salts and sugars of some kind to survive. Understanding this fact, opens up your mind a bit.
Because they are natural and come from the ground Nemesis Witch. Mother nature knows better than any carp bait expert. They work on sugars. Every living creature on the planet depends on salts and sugars of some kind to survive. Understanding this fact, opens up your mind a bit.
In reply to Post #56
So we are agreeing then Paul, so no need to be so bullish to everyone!
Hence my comment ref icing sugars and solubility... It wasn't that cryptic.
Tuber.... Energy source..... Carbs/sugars.... Etc.
I'm interested in why you do not think boiling 'improves' them.... Or is your focus on finely ground nut/increased surface area concept within a paste/boiled bait.
So we are agreeing then Paul, so no need to be so bullish to everyone!
Hence my comment ref icing sugars and solubility... It wasn't that cryptic.
Tuber.... Energy source..... Carbs/sugars.... Etc.
I'm interested in why you do not think boiling 'improves' them.... Or is your focus on finely ground nut/increased surface area concept within a paste/boiled bait.
In reply to Post #57
It's fun though NemesisWitch, but I do get your point. I only replied to what you wrote regarding tigers and boiling. What you need too do mate, is not get defensive, but take in what I wrote. No one will probably ever tell you anything more important than that for free. I've read your posts a lot in the past mate, I agree with a hell of a lot of what you write, but some other bits, not so much. That's what it's all about though. Clueless people, have started successful bait companies off the back of what I'm talking to you about now, so take it in. They have to be boiled, even in bait production. But the less you can get away with boiling them, the better, trust me.
It's fun though NemesisWitch, but I do get your point. I only replied to what you wrote regarding tigers and boiling. What you need too do mate, is not get defensive, but take in what I wrote. No one will probably ever tell you anything more important than that for free. I've read your posts a lot in the past mate, I agree with a hell of a lot of what you write, but some other bits, not so much. That's what it's all about though. Clueless people, have started successful bait companies off the back of what I'm talking to you about now, so take it in. They have to be boiled, even in bait production. But the less you can get away with boiling them, the better, trust me.
In reply to Post #58
Why does salt and sugar not significantly appear in the list of ingredients in commercial fish feeds?
These feeds, and the success of the companies which manufacture them throughout the world, depend on the fish eating them and digesting them.
Very interesting thread this one.
Why does salt and sugar not significantly appear in the list of ingredients in commercial fish feeds?
These feeds, and the success of the companies which manufacture them throughout the world, depend on the fish eating them and digesting them.
Very interesting thread this one.
In reply to Post #59
Because they are in nigh on every single product in there anyway mate. Maybe not the processed salt and sugar that we are thinking about as humans. Any fish meal product that we use and find successful, comes from salty sea fish. Fish meals which are not so salty, are not as good. Any bird seed, nut etc etc, contains oils, and sugars. Natural ones. I've seen it said on here plenty in the past that oils don't work at attracting carp. One second mate, while I roll around on the floor laughing for ten minutes again. That's better. Where were we, ah yes mate, all of the ingredients will have natural salts and sugars in them. The ones which have more, work better at attracting carp.
Because they are in nigh on every single product in there anyway mate. Maybe not the processed salt and sugar that we are thinking about as humans. Any fish meal product that we use and find successful, comes from salty sea fish. Fish meals which are not so salty, are not as good. Any bird seed, nut etc etc, contains oils, and sugars. Natural ones. I've seen it said on here plenty in the past that oils don't work at attracting carp. One second mate, while I roll around on the floor laughing for ten minutes again. That's better. Where were we, ah yes mate, all of the ingredients will have natural salts and sugars in them. The ones which have more, work better at attracting carp.