In reply to Post #31
please be option 4)
please be option 4)
In reply to Post #32
I can't speak for others but for OptiBaits it's always individual substances that we blend together to make the finished flavour, whether that's by myself or my flavourist.
This is of course the best way to go about it.
I can't speak for others but for OptiBaits it's always individual substances that we blend together to make the finished flavour, whether that's by myself or my flavourist.
This is of course the best way to go about it.
Science shows that hungry fish are attracted to food by chemoreception and that food signals come from the components of macronutrients. Please enlighten me as to how synthetic compounds that are totally alien to the aquatic environment could possibly influence their feeding behaviour. This is sheer quackery.
Not sure if that is a question for Sam or anyone?
Science shows that carp feeding responses can be affected by macronutrients, micronutrients, phytonutrients or combinations of them together via olfactory & gustatory receptors.
Lots of flavors contain elements of phytonutrients which are found in nature within plants & animals- especially when bacteria / bugs break down more complex food particles into simpler ones that are easier to utilize - esters, flavonoids, organic acids, salts & terpenes (plus many more).This is beneficial to carp as it indicates easier food & the bacteria that helps them get the best from it. The success of fermented elements in baits is proof of this.
Nature has had 2.1 billion years of evolution to allow living things to come up with ways of identifying nutrition & foodstuffs via a combination of receptors & the brain signals that are triggered when they are encountered which can be described as palatability. Some concentrations of chemicals when mixed together create stimulation within an animals brain whilst others can create negative reaction.
Best example in humans is sodium chloride - by itself it is not palatable, does not create a feeding reaction & in larger amounts is rejected. Add a small amount to a simple foodstuff such as simple carbs a potato or a nut & it creates a stimulatory feeding reaction. Once you start eating them it's hard to stop.
Most food items will have elements of this happening throughout them already but flavors in baits are a short cut to doing this imo.
I agree that a carp doesn't come across a boilie with bunspice & think ‘oooh - hot cross buns” - it thinks of beneficial foods that contain eugenol, vanillin & the organic acids that are found in the flavor constituents. I also agree that some of the pure chemicals in flavors aren't found in nature in their pure form but variations of them via things like salts are very common. Butyric Acid is a good example.
Science shows that carp feeding responses can be affected by macronutrients, micronutrients, phytonutrients or combinations of them together via olfactory & gustatory receptors.
Lots of flavors contain elements of phytonutrients which are found in nature within plants & animals- especially when bacteria / bugs break down more complex food particles into simpler ones that are easier to utilize - esters, flavonoids, organic acids, salts & terpenes (plus many more).This is beneficial to carp as it indicates easier food & the bacteria that helps them get the best from it. The success of fermented elements in baits is proof of this.
Nature has had 2.1 billion years of evolution to allow living things to come up with ways of identifying nutrition & foodstuffs via a combination of receptors & the brain signals that are triggered when they are encountered which can be described as palatability. Some concentrations of chemicals when mixed together create stimulation within an animals brain whilst others can create negative reaction.
Best example in humans is sodium chloride - by itself it is not palatable, does not create a feeding reaction & in larger amounts is rejected. Add a small amount to a simple foodstuff such as simple carbs a potato or a nut & it creates a stimulatory feeding reaction. Once you start eating them it's hard to stop.
Most food items will have elements of this happening throughout them already but flavors in baits are a short cut to doing this imo.
I agree that a carp doesn't come across a boilie with bunspice & think ‘oooh - hot cross buns” - it thinks of beneficial foods that contain eugenol, vanillin & the organic acids that are found in the flavor constituents. I also agree that some of the pure chemicals in flavors aren't found in nature in their pure form but variations of them via things like salts are very common. Butyric Acid is a good example.
In reply to Post #34
Gotcha, cheers.
You must have a pretty wild ingredients storage room with the various bottles and tubs of the constituent chemicals and ingredients to compile the flavours I guess!
The freshness of flavour seems to be talked about a lot more nowadays, particularly with the trend of legacy flavours being fashionable and getting silly prices on the 2nd hand market.
Are they any recommended techniques for longer term storage of flavours? Does freezing do anything odd to them would you say?
Gotcha, cheers.
You must have a pretty wild ingredients storage room with the various bottles and tubs of the constituent chemicals and ingredients to compile the flavours I guess!
The freshness of flavour seems to be talked about a lot more nowadays, particularly with the trend of legacy flavours being fashionable and getting silly prices on the 2nd hand market.
Are they any recommended techniques for longer term storage of flavours? Does freezing do anything odd to them would you say?
In reply to Post #35
You only seem to talk of olfactory stimulation. This gets them looking, then they try a potential food item and gustatory response kicks in i.e. taste.
The difference between an average bait and an exceptional bait is down to both olfactory and gustatory attraction. As already explained so many natural foods contain lower levels of compounds we have now found as attractive of our synthetic flavours.
>This is sheer quackery.
My baits work with and without the flavours. On balance I actually find they work better with the flavour especially if its on a lake I can pre-bait a little. I am currently using two baits together, one has no added synthetic flavour (but has added natural flavours such as EO) but the other does and is better for it. I also start at half the recommended minimum level (if it has one) and often find this is close to what works for me. I don't want to smell my finished baits through the plastic bags!
You only seem to talk of olfactory stimulation. This gets them looking, then they try a potential food item and gustatory response kicks in i.e. taste.
The difference between an average bait and an exceptional bait is down to both olfactory and gustatory attraction. As already explained so many natural foods contain lower levels of compounds we have now found as attractive of our synthetic flavours.
>This is sheer quackery.
My baits work with and without the flavours. On balance I actually find they work better with the flavour especially if its on a lake I can pre-bait a little. I am currently using two baits together, one has no added synthetic flavour (but has added natural flavours such as EO) but the other does and is better for it. I also start at half the recommended minimum level (if it has one) and often find this is close to what works for me. I don't want to smell my finished baits through the plastic bags!
In reply to Post #36
"- it thinks of beneficial foods that contain eugenol, vanillin & the organic acids that are found in the flavor constituents"
#
I doubt they think at all, just react naturally to stimuli.
"- it thinks of beneficial foods that contain eugenol, vanillin & the organic acids that are found in the flavor constituents"
#
I doubt they think at all, just react naturally to stimuli.
In reply to Post #38
olafactory & gustatory systems, although similar are completely different & can be stimulated independently of each other - both from up close or from a distance & in some cases will contradict each other.
physical stimulation of the systems is not the only part of whether an item is a food - it is the metaphysical brain signal that the fish has associated with the physical stimulation that is the important bit & defines the reaction.
a part of it's body will detect something & it's brain will either have an inherent (evolved) or associated (learned) trigger to the stimulation which will determine how it reacts.
whether that is thinking / intuition or whatever you want to call it but stimulation alone isn't enough.
we haven't even scratched the surface of fish sensory systems because we typically only view them from how we understand our own. be that sight, smell, taste, around, touch - there is always a massive assumption from our own viewpoint & understanding. all senses are metaphysical - made up in our brains & is just our brains way of understanding them & to assume that every other animal reacts in the same way is arrogant to say the least.
carp won't like pineapple because it has never encountered a pineapple
carp can't detect oils because they aren't water soluble
carp can't see my rig because it is the same color as the weed next to it
according to us as humans & not all of us are able to sense or react to things in the same way as everyone else, let alone a creature that has been on a separate evolutionary path to us for the last 500million years.
99% if carp fishing is quackery - all based on best guesses. problem is that every guess or discovery is only a tiny part of a much bigger, extremely complicated picture that is far beyond what anyone will ever be able to truly understand.
olafactory & gustatory systems, although similar are completely different & can be stimulated independently of each other - both from up close or from a distance & in some cases will contradict each other.
physical stimulation of the systems is not the only part of whether an item is a food - it is the metaphysical brain signal that the fish has associated with the physical stimulation that is the important bit & defines the reaction.
a part of it's body will detect something & it's brain will either have an inherent (evolved) or associated (learned) trigger to the stimulation which will determine how it reacts.
whether that is thinking / intuition or whatever you want to call it but stimulation alone isn't enough.
we haven't even scratched the surface of fish sensory systems because we typically only view them from how we understand our own. be that sight, smell, taste, around, touch - there is always a massive assumption from our own viewpoint & understanding. all senses are metaphysical - made up in our brains & is just our brains way of understanding them & to assume that every other animal reacts in the same way is arrogant to say the least.
carp won't like pineapple because it has never encountered a pineapple
carp can't detect oils because they aren't water soluble
carp can't see my rig because it is the same color as the weed next to it
according to us as humans & not all of us are able to sense or react to things in the same way as everyone else, let alone a creature that has been on a separate evolutionary path to us for the last 500million years.
99% if carp fishing is quackery - all based on best guesses. problem is that every guess or discovery is only a tiny part of a much bigger, extremely complicated picture that is far beyond what anyone will ever be able to truly understand.
In reply to Post #40
Jamie you write very rationally and sensibly but with regard to Pineapple flavour not being attractive to carp as they do not encounter them in their natural environment while rational , would appear to be incorrect , probably because the flavour is based on amyl acetate which is the base or used in Pineapple ,banana and Cranberry flavours ,which from experience all seem to work.
Simply an observation based on many many years of boilie manufacture.
Jamie you write very rationally and sensibly but with regard to Pineapple flavour not being attractive to carp as they do not encounter them in their natural environment while rational , would appear to be incorrect , probably because the flavour is based on amyl acetate which is the base or used in Pineapple ,banana and Cranberry flavours ,which from experience all seem to work.
Simply an observation based on many many years of boilie manufacture.
thank you for the clarification sam - you are absolutely correct 
those comments were examples of statements I have read elsewhere as to why / how baits do or don't work based on a human perception or understanding & I believe they are most likely all untrue.
maybe sensibly / rationally but obviously not very clearly
those comments were examples of statements I have read elsewhere as to why / how baits do or don't work based on a human perception or understanding & I believe they are most likely all untrue.
maybe sensibly / rationally but obviously not very clearly
In reply to Post #42
Just like many other species, Carp also possess Solitary Chemoreceptor Cells (SCCs) which are thought to be a separate aspect of Chemoreception away from Gustation and Olfaction and are part of the external receptors. SCCs are thought to work in detecting chemicals within the water columns.
Aside from what a Carp can “smell” or “taste” - or if the carp inherently see's/know's certain things as food items. They are also thought to investigate items due to SCCs which would explain why flavours (chemical compounds) attract them.
Olfaction and Gustation are not the only variables when considering Chemoreception.
Just like many other species, Carp also possess Solitary Chemoreceptor Cells (SCCs) which are thought to be a separate aspect of Chemoreception away from Gustation and Olfaction and are part of the external receptors. SCCs are thought to work in detecting chemicals within the water columns.
Aside from what a Carp can “smell” or “taste” - or if the carp inherently see's/know's certain things as food items. They are also thought to investigate items due to SCCs which would explain why flavours (chemical compounds) attract them.
Olfaction and Gustation are not the only variables when considering Chemoreception.
If only someone could reproduce Richworth's original version of Tutti Fruiti 
In reply to Post #44
errr. Just contact Richworth and buy the flavour, they sell it in 250ml bottles double strength.
errr. Just contact Richworth and buy the flavour, they sell it in 250ml bottles double strength.
In reply to Post #45
It's not the same
It's not the same
In reply to Post #46
Why would it not be the same Sam? I'm sure Mistral would be sourcing it from the same supplier who bought out Campbells?
Why would it not be the same Sam? I'm sure Mistral would be sourcing it from the same supplier who bought out Campbells?