In reply to Post #28
Hi Christian,
Please read my post no 12.
In your previous post, you based some of your points on the fact that commercial baits catch most of the fish.
But considering that probably 95% of anglers use them, it's hardly a fair comparison to use as to their effectiveness.
BB.
Hi Christian,
Please read my post no 12.
In your previous post, you based some of your points on the fact that commercial baits catch most of the fish.
But considering that probably 95% of anglers use them, it's hardly a fair comparison to use as to their effectiveness.
BB.
In reply to Post #1
Hi Gaius,
"given their simple digestive system."
There are some great posts on this thread in answer to your initial question which makes very interesting reading.
My thoughts are that no matter how digestible you make a bait you will never be able to overcome the fact that carp have a "basic" digestible system that's incapable of processing the highest HNV baits.
Why they seek them out is for another thread.....
Best
Jon
Hi Gaius,
"given their simple digestive system."
There are some great posts on this thread in answer to your initial question which makes very interesting reading.
My thoughts are that no matter how digestible you make a bait you will never be able to overcome the fact that carp have a "basic" digestible system that's incapable of processing the highest HNV baits.
Why they seek them out is for another thread.....
Best
Jon
In reply to Post #28
Thanks for the replies folks! I never knew the subject of digestability was sooo complicated!
The digestibility of the oils and carbohydrates surely has to be taken into account in the overall digestibility.
I posed a similar question too christian.
Seems to me that just focusing on the protein side of things is only a part of the whole picture.
I also wonder how quickly a Carp can tell that a food source is readily digestible and will preference a bait over a natural food source it is regularly consuming.
From what I've read and heard, it's tough to get fish eating bait if there is an abundance of natural food in a lake on offer.
Thanks for the replies folks! I never knew the subject of digestability was sooo complicated!
The digestibility of the oils and carbohydrates surely has to be taken into account in the overall digestibility.
I posed a similar question too christian.
Seems to me that just focusing on the protein side of things is only a part of the whole picture.
I also wonder how quickly a Carp can tell that a food source is readily digestible and will preference a bait over a natural food source it is regularly consuming.
From what I've read and heard, it's tough to get fish eating bait if there is an abundance of natural food in a lake on offer.
In reply to Post #31
BB
I've had a look at your previous post but still not convinced, a product with a stated % susceptibility does not mean that a carp can access all the nutrition, I thought it meant that at best it can be digested to that %.
So a carp might get a proportion of the % digestibity while for instance a carnivore such as a pike could in the case of a fish meal could get more. As cold blooded creatures the amount would be dependant on the temperature of the water which would effect the rate of metabolism. A warm blooded mammal with a more efficient digestive tract would get even more.
This is why I believe the FLAA theory does not stand up, the carp's ability to digest protein is temperature dependant, and the digestability of each protein source (eg fish, soya, yeast, etc) is also different and I doubt that this can be determined accurately.
Give them a decent amount of protein in the summer and we are doing the best we can. It has certainly worked very well for me without ever having to worry about FLAAs
BB
I've had a look at your previous post but still not convinced, a product with a stated % susceptibility does not mean that a carp can access all the nutrition, I thought it meant that at best it can be digested to that %.
So a carp might get a proportion of the % digestibity while for instance a carnivore such as a pike could in the case of a fish meal could get more. As cold blooded creatures the amount would be dependant on the temperature of the water which would effect the rate of metabolism. A warm blooded mammal with a more efficient digestive tract would get even more.
This is why I believe the FLAA theory does not stand up, the carp's ability to digest protein is temperature dependant, and the digestability of each protein source (eg fish, soya, yeast, etc) is also different and I doubt that this can be determined accurately.
Give them a decent amount of protein in the summer and we are doing the best we can. It has certainly worked very well for me without ever having to worry about FLAAs
This message has been suppressed by a moderator.
In reply to Post #29
Cannot argue with the bait make up you describe, I have and still do use similar quality mixes. Cost is not an issue for me, I want a bait I am confident will catch the fish I'm after.
However I still would not use such a mix in the colder seasons preferring a much lower protein content and no fishmeal.
Interesting comment re lysine, as I notice that a lot of egg food based birdfood ingredients have added lysine and methionine.
Cannot argue with the bait make up you describe, I have and still do use similar quality mixes. Cost is not an issue for me, I want a bait I am confident will catch the fish I'm after.
However I still would not use such a mix in the colder seasons preferring a much lower protein content and no fishmeal.
Interesting comment re lysine, as I notice that a lot of egg food based birdfood ingredients have added lysine and methionine.
In reply to Post #34
Hi Christian,
I think the most important thing about FLAA is that if that AA is really deficient, then most of the protein will be unusable, which does the fish little good or the water quality. Low protein baits, as you suggest in winter will probably have the same problem. Little of it might be assimilated.
In 1kg of mix with 30% main protein, it requires a high quality protein and extra supplementation to get close to addressing FLAA.
Re digestion, I'm not sure the carp's ability to digest protein is temp dependant, but the rate of digestion probably is.
Mind you, it's not that straightforward, because if the mix contains a fair amount of hydrolysates which are included in the calculation, then once in the lake, the hydro's will release aminos far quicker than the rest of the protein and might render it unbalanced. As I was told, a mix of processed proteins put in a lake will be subject to a range of variables that would make the release of aminos impossible to predict.
Nevertheless, I believe giving the carp a protein source close to their requirement is the best bet.
I also think it is the best way to try and produce the most effective feed signal.
BB.
Hi Christian,
I think the most important thing about FLAA is that if that AA is really deficient, then most of the protein will be unusable, which does the fish little good or the water quality. Low protein baits, as you suggest in winter will probably have the same problem. Little of it might be assimilated.
In 1kg of mix with 30% main protein, it requires a high quality protein and extra supplementation to get close to addressing FLAA.
Re digestion, I'm not sure the carp's ability to digest protein is temp dependant, but the rate of digestion probably is.
Mind you, it's not that straightforward, because if the mix contains a fair amount of hydrolysates which are included in the calculation, then once in the lake, the hydro's will release aminos far quicker than the rest of the protein and might render it unbalanced. As I was told, a mix of processed proteins put in a lake will be subject to a range of variables that would make the release of aminos impossible to predict.
Nevertheless, I believe giving the carp a protein source close to their requirement is the best bet.
I also think it is the best way to try and produce the most effective feed signal.
BB.
In reply to Post #36
The whole fishmeal/protein saga does run through my mind but last winter I gave it a proper go, I gave up on my simple (cheaper) boilie which has always worked and decided to go for it with my hnv mix but only in old fashioned quantities (1-2kg) and to be fair it worked well. I got takes on bottom baits and matching wafters (not hi viz fruity pop ups like most folk do, that's not a fair test of your bait in my opinion) and that really boosted my confidence. The lads who I have given it to also faired well between November to March and all used very small quantities. The point I'm trying to get at is that the bait I use is very complex compared to many baits and even though it has fishmeal and a higher protein content, the carp still looked for it and consumed it regularly. I have no doubt they ate various other baits during this time. In the last 15-18 years I have used two baits that were bloody awesome in warm weather but totally useless in the winter. One of them hasn't been made for ages and the other has a winterised version now as the company must have also realised the boilie Wasn't as efficient in cold weather. So many variables in bait but I think a fishmeal can and will work all winter but only when it's well balanced with soluble milks/birds and salts and vitamins.
Just my opinion and I could be way off!
I also think that attraction is far more important in winter than in summer. A bait with the all the best ingredients may be totally useless if it's not giving out any leakage or attraction in the first place.
The whole fishmeal/protein saga does run through my mind but last winter I gave it a proper go, I gave up on my simple (cheaper) boilie which has always worked and decided to go for it with my hnv mix but only in old fashioned quantities (1-2kg) and to be fair it worked well. I got takes on bottom baits and matching wafters (not hi viz fruity pop ups like most folk do, that's not a fair test of your bait in my opinion) and that really boosted my confidence. The lads who I have given it to also faired well between November to March and all used very small quantities. The point I'm trying to get at is that the bait I use is very complex compared to many baits and even though it has fishmeal and a higher protein content, the carp still looked for it and consumed it regularly. I have no doubt they ate various other baits during this time. In the last 15-18 years I have used two baits that were bloody awesome in warm weather but totally useless in the winter. One of them hasn't been made for ages and the other has a winterised version now as the company must have also realised the boilie Wasn't as efficient in cold weather. So many variables in bait but I think a fishmeal can and will work all winter but only when it's well balanced with soluble milks/birds and salts and vitamins.
Just my opinion and I could be way off!
I also think that attraction is far more important in winter than in summer. A bait with the all the best ingredients may be totally useless if it's not giving out any leakage or attraction in the first place.
In reply to Post #35
Viking, thanks for putting that up, so there is information on how well carp can digest protein from different sources, suppose I shouldn't really be surprised. From a personal point of view it would be interesting to know the figures for protein digestion from whey, casein, brewers yeast and liver as these are the ones I use the most.
Viking, thanks for putting that up, so there is information on how well carp can digest protein from different sources, suppose I shouldn't really be surprised. From a personal point of view it would be interesting to know the figures for protein digestion from whey, casein, brewers yeast and liver as these are the ones I use the most.
In reply to Post #38
Hi Keeperboy,
I'm guessing that your HNV mix which I assume you were referring to in your previous post, comes close to, or actually addresses FLAA.
BB.
Hi Keeperboy,
I'm guessing that your HNV mix which I assume you were referring to in your previous post, comes close to, or actually addresses FLAA.
BB.
In reply to Post #39
Hi Christian,
As carp is one of the most common farm fish in the world there is plenty of information out there. I can put up some links later but Google will get you plenty of information.
Hi Christian,
As carp is one of the most common farm fish in the world there is plenty of information out there. I can put up some links later but Google will get you plenty of information.
In reply to Post #37
BB
Still don't think the theory stands up to the fact that carp binge on what is available be that natural food or our various baits and do very well indeed. Probably because overall they get a balanced diet, I don't think giving them this balance in my bait alone is required at all hence the important ingredients in my baits are chosen for attraction and taste, during the summer especially these will include proteins from different sources and hydroslates and fermented products.
In the winter I change the mix as I believe carp will eat more individual boilies if they contain less protein but I still add fermented products and some pre digested liquids and a few other ingredients I suspect attract in winter such as sugar.
Must say though that the comments on this thread are very thought provoking, it's good that we have differing opinions often because we all have different experiences and often different goals.
BB
Still don't think the theory stands up to the fact that carp binge on what is available be that natural food or our various baits and do very well indeed. Probably because overall they get a balanced diet, I don't think giving them this balance in my bait alone is required at all hence the important ingredients in my baits are chosen for attraction and taste, during the summer especially these will include proteins from different sources and hydroslates and fermented products.
In the winter I change the mix as I believe carp will eat more individual boilies if they contain less protein but I still add fermented products and some pre digested liquids and a few other ingredients I suspect attract in winter such as sugar.
Must say though that the comments on this thread are very thought provoking, it's good that we have differing opinions often because we all have different experiences and often different goals.
In reply to Post #42
I work with a very well known fish producer and we are going to conduct some tests this winter. To see how certain baits work in the cold and also to see if the carp get bigger on the same weight of hnv boilie compared to the normal feed and any side effects. We have already made some interesting notes. Certain baits the fish collect, move round and spit out before repeating the process and then finally swallowing. A recent nut/milk protein we are working on was taken and swallowed immediately every time by every fish. That always gets the grey matter working. I think we can all learn so much if you have actual carp to watch and make better judgement of how they process bait. Like I said on another thread, if you glug baits in hydrolysed fish liquids just watch the carps reaction!
I work with a very well known fish producer and we are going to conduct some tests this winter. To see how certain baits work in the cold and also to see if the carp get bigger on the same weight of hnv boilie compared to the normal feed and any side effects. We have already made some interesting notes. Certain baits the fish collect, move round and spit out before repeating the process and then finally swallowing. A recent nut/milk protein we are working on was taken and swallowed immediately every time by every fish. That always gets the grey matter working. I think we can all learn so much if you have actual carp to watch and make better judgement of how they process bait. Like I said on another thread, if you glug baits in hydrolysed fish liquids just watch the carps reaction!
In reply to Post #43
The carp spitting and re-collecting is probably due to palatability, the more palatable the faster they get swallowed.
I have done a lot of tank testing together with a scientist and it is really helpful.
Its amazing how quick they learn to what is palatable and what is not. It is also very interesting to see how the fish has different personalities (in lack of a better word) and how some fish optimistically pick up everything offered and others seem to be natural born sceptics.
The carp spitting and re-collecting is probably due to palatability, the more palatable the faster they get swallowed.
I have done a lot of tank testing together with a scientist and it is really helpful.
Its amazing how quick they learn to what is palatable and what is not. It is also very interesting to see how the fish has different personalities (in lack of a better word) and how some fish optimistically pick up everything offered and others seem to be natural born sceptics.
In reply to Post #44
Trust me to fish a lake full of sceptics.....
Trust me to fish a lake full of sceptics.....