In reply to Post #14
Yes that was the potential reason via the owner. But more so that they weren't cooked and ended up swelling inside the fish. I can't believe that would have happened personally. Never known a nut swell so big, even the big red peanuts that a huge carp like that couldn't pass it whole.
Poisoning? Doubtful.
Yes that was the potential reason via the owner. But more so that they weren't cooked and ended up swelling inside the fish. I can't believe that would have happened personally. Never known a nut swell so big, even the big red peanuts that a huge carp like that couldn't pass it whole.
Poisoning? Doubtful.
In reply to Post #16
Can't really get my head round this un cooked particle thing killing fish. Supposedly swelling up in fish causing there demise... How's that work then? How does say a nut swell inside a fish? Has this ever been proven as a cause of death and if so by who?
Finding uncooked nuts in the margin... really... throw a handful of uncooked nuts beside a handful of cooked in the margin. And I defie anyone to tell me the difference after half a day or so..
You will always get a poorer grade of peanut supplied for the Animal feed market. They get what the human food market don't want.
Can't really get my head round this un cooked particle thing killing fish. Supposedly swelling up in fish causing there demise... How's that work then? How does say a nut swell inside a fish? Has this ever been proven as a cause of death and if so by who?
Finding uncooked nuts in the margin... really... throw a handful of uncooked nuts beside a handful of cooked in the margin. And I defie anyone to tell me the difference after half a day or so..
You will always get a poorer grade of peanut supplied for the Animal feed market. They get what the human food market don't want.
In reply to Post #17
Very different from nuts but I have witnessed carp killed by maple peas swelling up inside them. I've no idea why they are just passed out quicker than they swell, but they did.
Very different from nuts but I have witnessed carp killed by maple peas swelling up inside them. I've no idea why they are just passed out quicker than they swell, but they did.
In reply to Post #18
Carp don't have the same digestive system as us. They have to crush the food item up and then as it travels through the stomach the nutrients are absorbed through the lining. No acids, etc involved. Fairly inefficient but suited to their natural diet.
If you feed carp constantly you can get them to eat so much they just excrete whole pellets. I've seen this in a tank situation.
They will eat the particle, not be able to crush it up and it will go through their system. Depending on size of fish it may become stuck as it swells up inside after taking on water. I think it's pretty rare. Peanuts are soft enough to crush, whichever way you buy them. They aren't dehydrated completely like particles are for storage.
That's the premise anyway. But then I can't imagine a carp would ingest large, hard particle objects they can't crush up. Bit like when they sift out stones and spit them out. Essentially it would feel the same to them wouldn't it?
Carp don't have the same digestive system as us. They have to crush the food item up and then as it travels through the stomach the nutrients are absorbed through the lining. No acids, etc involved. Fairly inefficient but suited to their natural diet.
If you feed carp constantly you can get them to eat so much they just excrete whole pellets. I've seen this in a tank situation.
They will eat the particle, not be able to crush it up and it will go through their system. Depending on size of fish it may become stuck as it swells up inside after taking on water. I think it's pretty rare. Peanuts are soft enough to crush, whichever way you buy them. They aren't dehydrated completely like particles are for storage.
That's the premise anyway. But then I can't imagine a carp would ingest large, hard particle objects they can't crush up. Bit like when they sift out stones and spit them out. Essentially it would feel the same to them wouldn't it?
Is this not the same as
"carp get so addicted to peanuts they will never eat another thing ever again untill they shrivel up and die"
It's some made up nonsence that was said in the 80s and seemed to stick for some reason. Possibly perpetuated by people with a vested interest in bait?
"carp get so addicted to peanuts they will never eat another thing ever again untill they shrivel up and die"
It's some made up nonsence that was said in the 80s and seemed to stick for some reason. Possibly perpetuated by people with a vested interest in bait?
In reply to Post #20
Exactly.. a load of pseudo science nonsense. By as you say people with vested interests.
Exactly.. a load of pseudo science nonsense. By as you say people with vested interests.
In reply to Post #20
There was a lot of stuff written about nuts having detrimental effects on carp in the 80's that was based on guesswork.
Large amounts were used in lakes - they would all get caught loads & then the bites would stop & the fishing became really hard on the lakes for weeks afterwards.
This scared loads of fishery owners & there were lots of bans & pseudo rubbish written about afloxins, swelling up inside fish & vitamin d deficiencies all of which were based on assumptions & not science.
From what I have read over the last couple of years, I would suggest that it was more likely down to high amounts of sugar making the fish hyperglycemic instead the nuts themselves.
With respect to unprepared particles swelling up in a fish stomach & damaging them - I call bulls1t because -
a) their gut tract is too short & there is no way particles will be inside them long enough for them to swell up
b) They can pass large items through their bodies - I have found all sorts in the bottom of the sack after retaining fish including swan mussel shells.
There was a lot of stuff written about nuts having detrimental effects on carp in the 80's that was based on guesswork.
Large amounts were used in lakes - they would all get caught loads & then the bites would stop & the fishing became really hard on the lakes for weeks afterwards.
This scared loads of fishery owners & there were lots of bans & pseudo rubbish written about afloxins, swelling up inside fish & vitamin d deficiencies all of which were based on assumptions & not science.
From what I have read over the last couple of years, I would suggest that it was more likely down to high amounts of sugar making the fish hyperglycemic instead the nuts themselves.
With respect to unprepared particles swelling up in a fish stomach & damaging them - I call bulls1t because -
a) their gut tract is too short & there is no way particles will be inside them long enough for them to swell up
b) They can pass large items through their bodies - I have found all sorts in the bottom of the sack after retaining fish including swan mussel shells.
In reply to Post #22
Well you can call bull##it as much as you like, but I, and others have witnessed it. It wasn't just one fish either.
We quickly sussed who was feeding unprepared maples and put a stop to it. No more dead carp full of maples were ever found again on that water.
Well you can call bull##it as much as you like, but I, and others have witnessed it. It wasn't just one fish either.
We quickly sussed who was feeding unprepared maples and put a stop to it. No more dead carp full of maples were ever found again on that water.
In reply to Post #23
you are aware that continental fish farmers feed their carp unprepared maize, wheat & barley through the colder months to keep their metabolism.
I have actually been using maples over the last couple of weeks & found they hardly swell up at all when I was preparing them compared to other particles. Being such a small particle, pass through the fish in minutes. I actually had fish passing whole peas on the mat as they were being unhooked - these weren't massive fish either & all swam off strongly.
I suspect there was something else at play here & nothing to do with them swelling up.
you are aware that continental fish farmers feed their carp unprepared maize, wheat & barley through the colder months to keep their metabolism.
I have actually been using maples over the last couple of weeks & found they hardly swell up at all when I was preparing them compared to other particles. Being such a small particle, pass through the fish in minutes. I actually had fish passing whole peas on the mat as they were being unhooked - these weren't massive fish either & all swam off strongly.
I suspect there was something else at play here & nothing to do with them swelling up.
In reply to Post #24
Properly prepared particles are just more palatable. Preparing helps release there attractive properties. You wouldn't eat a raw spud would you..
Properly prepared particles are just more palatable. Preparing helps release there attractive properties. You wouldn't eat a raw spud would you..
Has anyone found any difference between toasted/roasted, ground hemp vs raw ground hemp in baits? The toasting would make it more easily digestable, but I would also think the toasting can damage some of the attractive elements in the hemp?
In reply to Post #26
Can't answer that direct but think about it. Hemp becomes more attractive to carp when cooked. So do Tigers, Peanuts etc. To cook some of these particles takes a long soak to soften them then anything up to 30 minute boiling really get the best from them.
Why do so many add ground up uncooked things like this to a bait mix and think it will work just like the prepared particles do?
A 60-90 second dip of the boilie in water to cook it is not the same as the above process by a long shot. Many years ago (15-20 if my memory is correct) I recorded the internal temperature of a boilie (like you do) whilst cooking it for 90 seconds in a rolling boil. It was under 60°C. This surprises a lot of people. But why, if my baits are soft inside then the egg has not been cooked which happens >75°C.
Don't even get me started in steaming....I am NOT buggering up the inside of my bait by boiling which I proved with this test.
Anyway, back to the topic. I have been playing around with a 'nut mix' over the last couple of years for my own interest. I am increasingly becoming convinced that pre-cooking the nuts (not that tiger are nuts) then dehydrating before grinding them up unlocks more attraction. At least that is what my pond fish told me this summer Now it's turned cold my fish don't tell me a great deal so something I will carry on looking into next spring plus a better way to dry them out in suitable quantities prior to grinding up for making 5-10kg batches of boilies.
Can't answer that direct but think about it. Hemp becomes more attractive to carp when cooked. So do Tigers, Peanuts etc. To cook some of these particles takes a long soak to soften them then anything up to 30 minute boiling really get the best from them.
Why do so many add ground up uncooked things like this to a bait mix and think it will work just like the prepared particles do?
A 60-90 second dip of the boilie in water to cook it is not the same as the above process by a long shot. Many years ago (15-20 if my memory is correct) I recorded the internal temperature of a boilie (like you do) whilst cooking it for 90 seconds in a rolling boil. It was under 60°C. This surprises a lot of people. But why, if my baits are soft inside then the egg has not been cooked which happens >75°C.
Don't even get me started in steaming....I am NOT buggering up the inside of my bait by boiling which I proved with this test.
Anyway, back to the topic. I have been playing around with a 'nut mix' over the last couple of years for my own interest. I am increasingly becoming convinced that pre-cooking the nuts (not that tiger are nuts) then dehydrating before grinding them up unlocks more attraction. At least that is what my pond fish told me this summer
Now it's turned cold my fish don't tell me a great deal so something I will carry on looking into next spring plus a better way to dry them out in suitable quantities prior to grinding up for making 5-10kg batches of boilies.
In reply to Post #27
Watched carp drop down in the edge onto crushed raw hemp and eat the area with gusto, grinding up cooked hemp does not seem to leech of as much oil as crushed hemp does either imho.
Watched carp drop down in the edge onto crushed raw hemp and eat the area with gusto, grinding up cooked hemp does not seem to leech of as much oil as crushed hemp does either imho.
In reply to Post #28
Is your last sentence correct? You talk both times about cooked hemp?
Is your last sentence correct? You talk both times about cooked hemp?
Thanks for your input gents. Funny it's exactly the opposite from each other.