In reply to Post #13
I understand what you are saying and can see that this could be an issue, but when I am fishing the silty waters, if I reel in without having a run there is no plugging or difficulty in retrieving the lead and rig. As I said, I think it's because I use lots of buoyant baits in my PVA bags and hence the bags sit nicely on top of the silt.
Also, the problem still exists on predominantly gravelly bottoms or choddy bottoms, so I don't think it's the make up of the lake bed, it's something to do with my set up from rod and reel down to hair stop.
I understand what you are saying and can see that this could be an issue, but when I am fishing the silty waters, if I reel in without having a run there is no plugging or difficulty in retrieving the lead and rig. As I said, I think it's because I use lots of buoyant baits in my PVA bags and hence the bags sit nicely on top of the silt.
Also, the problem still exists on predominantly gravelly bottoms or choddy bottoms, so I don't think it's the make up of the lake bed, it's something to do with my set up from rod and reel down to hair stop.
In reply to Post #14
As I said in my overly long post, I use an inch of shrink tube line aligner style, to cover my hair whipping and hook knot. This extends my hook by about 1 cm in a gentle curve that obviously bends once the fish has been hooked.
I think what you are saying makes sense, but means that I would need to extend the shrink tube further by an inch or two. If this is the case the this means that the braid must be damaging the mouth, but the braid is a supple hooklink material supplied by one of the biggest carp Kompanies out there. I will give this a go as an experiment to see if it reduces the damage, but long term I don't want to change the effectiveness of my method and so if it is the supple braid causing the issue, then I need an alternative material that behaves just like my current supple hooklink material, but that doesn't damage the sides of their mouths.
As I said in my overly long post, I use an inch of shrink tube line aligner style, to cover my hair whipping and hook knot. This extends my hook by about 1 cm in a gentle curve that obviously bends once the fish has been hooked.
I think what you are saying makes sense, but means that I would need to extend the shrink tube further by an inch or two. If this is the case the this means that the braid must be damaging the mouth, but the braid is a supple hooklink material supplied by one of the biggest carp Kompanies out there. I will give this a go as an experiment to see if it reduces the damage, but long term I don't want to change the effectiveness of my method and so if it is the supple braid causing the issue, then I need an alternative material that behaves just like my current supple hooklink material, but that doesn't damage the sides of their mouths.
In reply to Post #7
No, I'm not using the twig as the club I belong to has banned it. There again, they have banned a lot of things. Funny thing is they have banned some things on some waters that they own and not on other waters that they own - don't get me started on bans
Ok, just one then - they have banned all pre baiting of any kind of bait, on all club waters. I can only presume that they want to keep the fish as hungry as possible so that when an angler drops any bait in the water the fish are queueing up to get caught
No, I'm not using the twig as the club I belong to has banned it. There again, they have banned a lot of things. Funny thing is they have banned some things on some waters that they own and not on other waters that they own - don't get me started on bans
Ok, just one then - they have banned all pre baiting of any kind of bait, on all club waters. I can only presume that they want to keep the fish as hungry as possible so that when an angler drops any bait in the water the fish are queueing up to get caught
It sounds like you are fishing runs waters to be catching as many as that week in week out. They are notorious for fish having mouth damage in places like that too, especially if it is/was a match type water . If you know it's you causing the damage then try swapping over to a coated braid , lighten up your lead and use a tighter bait runner to set the hook rather than a bigger lead. If it's your method that is causing the damage you need to alter it, even if you don't want to.
And banning pre baiting isn't actually that unusual. It's to prevent too much bait going in and potentially harming water quality as it breaks down
And banning pre baiting isn't actually that unusual. It's to prevent too much bait going in and potentially harming water quality as it breaks down
In reply to Post #4
I must have got the name wrong!
Basically it is a piece of thick mono that you put horizontal through the aligner just after the hook eye so you create the look of an anchor - about 30mm depending on hook size.
It is meant to ‘scare' the fish and keep hook pointing down. I have used it for different reasons but for you it would stop the hook being able to travel to the scissors of the mouth.
Unless I have made all this up I'm sure someone on here will be able to get some kind of link to who and where this was published!
I must have got the name wrong!
Basically it is a piece of thick mono that you put horizontal through the aligner just after the hook eye so you create the look of an anchor - about 30mm depending on hook size.
It is meant to ‘scare' the fish and keep hook pointing down. I have used it for different reasons but for you it would stop the hook being able to travel to the scissors of the mouth.
Unless I have made all this up I'm sure someone on here will be able to get some kind of link to who and where this was published!
In reply to Post #20
You certainly haven't made it up
You certainly haven't made it up
In reply to Post #20
I've seen Frank Warwick using the thick mono arrangement above the hook as you describe, I think he calls it an anchor. Always thought it would be fine if the hook goes in point down but if it goes in point up then the mono would actually prevent the hook from flipping and catching. Could also lead to the hook resting point up on the lake bed as it lands.
I was always very dubious about the ‘experts' interpreting hook holds and making changes to rigs to get that magic bottom lip hold. There is so much going on in that vortex and so many influencing factors. The way the fish approaches, the way you have baited, the way that particular fish feeds, the chod and detritus on the bottom. Too simple to say if the hook goes in the scissors lengthen the hair by 3mm or whatever waffle the likes of Kevin Nash would have you believe. I'm more than happy with a hook in the scissors if it holds nicely.
To the OP on this thread. What size fish are we talking? If they are smaller young fish with soft or bashed up mouths I would suspect the 4oz lead bopping about 4 inches from the hook may be causing it to move around in the hold.
I've seen Frank Warwick using the thick mono arrangement above the hook as you describe, I think he calls it an anchor. Always thought it would be fine if the hook goes in point down but if it goes in point up then the mono would actually prevent the hook from flipping and catching. Could also lead to the hook resting point up on the lake bed as it lands.
I was always very dubious about the ‘experts' interpreting hook holds and making changes to rigs to get that magic bottom lip hold. There is so much going on in that vortex and so many influencing factors. The way the fish approaches, the way you have baited, the way that particular fish feeds, the chod and detritus on the bottom. Too simple to say if the hook goes in the scissors lengthen the hair by 3mm or whatever waffle the likes of Kevin Nash would have you believe. I'm more than happy with a hook in the scissors if it holds nicely.
To the OP on this thread. What size fish are we talking? If they are smaller young fish with soft or bashed up mouths I would suspect the 4oz lead bopping about 4 inches from the hook may be causing it to move around in the hold.
In reply to Post #19
Hi there, based on how many carp I'm catching I would class most of the lakes I'm fishing as runs waters, but yet most of the guys fishing them are moaning that they haven't caught anything or saying things like 'Oh it's not fishing well this year'
Anyway, I totally agree that I need to alter my method, but if you read my rather long post, I don't honestly think that I'm doing anything out of the ordinary. If it is the use of the soft supple braid, then why do this huge Kompany sell it and what are they expecting us to use it for ??? I will try a coated braid though ...
I am going to experiment with all of the advice given, so I will lighten the lead, but again many well known carp anglers use 4 oz and 5 oz leads and actually advocate their use - so are they just not reporting mouth damage ???
I will also tighten up my baitrunner clutch, but fear that the initial run on a tight clutch may cause damage as described. Again though, there must be thousands of carp anglers fishing tight baitrunner clutches when fishing near snags or reeds etc - again, are they just not bothered about mouth damage ???
Personally, and only my opinion, I think that carp anglers far and wide must be causing mouth damage with some of the methods described, but they just see it as part of the process, whereas I'm prepared to change whatever it is that's causing the issue, in the name of carp welfare. Maybe certain components of end tackle should carry warnings - for example on the supple braid it may be that it should state 'only to be used with leads of 2oz or less' or 'in conjunction with a drop off lead'.
I'd like some of the big names to answer questions like these on their podcasts etc, but I'm pretty sure that money talks and no one would be prepared to discuss this side of our sport.
oh and I can agree that pre baiting can ruin water quality if too much bait is going in, but banning it on all waters seems a bit over the top - there is one water that I fish, that only sees one other carp angler a week or maybe two if it's a bank holiday. However, I suppose it negates the need to police the different lakes that have different rules.
Rant over and thanks for your input - much appreciated
'
Hi there, based on how many carp I'm catching I would class most of the lakes I'm fishing as runs waters, but yet most of the guys fishing them are moaning that they haven't caught anything or saying things like 'Oh it's not fishing well this year'
Anyway, I totally agree that I need to alter my method, but if you read my rather long post, I don't honestly think that I'm doing anything out of the ordinary. If it is the use of the soft supple braid, then why do this huge Kompany sell it and what are they expecting us to use it for ??? I will try a coated braid though ...
I am going to experiment with all of the advice given, so I will lighten the lead, but again many well known carp anglers use 4 oz and 5 oz leads and actually advocate their use - so are they just not reporting mouth damage ???
I will also tighten up my baitrunner clutch, but fear that the initial run on a tight clutch may cause damage as described. Again though, there must be thousands of carp anglers fishing tight baitrunner clutches when fishing near snags or reeds etc - again, are they just not bothered about mouth damage ???
Personally, and only my opinion, I think that carp anglers far and wide must be causing mouth damage with some of the methods described, but they just see it as part of the process, whereas I'm prepared to change whatever it is that's causing the issue, in the name of carp welfare. Maybe certain components of end tackle should carry warnings - for example on the supple braid it may be that it should state 'only to be used with leads of 2oz or less' or 'in conjunction with a drop off lead'.
I'd like some of the big names to answer questions like these on their podcasts etc, but I'm pretty sure that money talks and no one would be prepared to discuss this side of our sport.
oh and I can agree that pre baiting can ruin water quality if too much bait is going in, but banning it on all waters seems a bit over the top - there is one water that I fish, that only sees one other carp angler a week or maybe two if it's a bank holiday. However, I suppose it negates the need to police the different lakes that have different rules.
Rant over and thanks for your input - much appreciated
'
In reply to Post #20
I know the rig you mean, and it is called 'the anchor rig'. If you note the part in my post about hookholds, I state that most of my hooks are in the bottom lip (although not 100% of the time), but I am still getting this mouth damage. From my own thoughts, and the great advice from other carp anglers, it seems that it may be the soft supple braid that I am using that causes the damage when the carp is making a bid for freedom, or when the 4oz or 5oz leads are banging / swinging around during the fight.
If this is the case, then why do carp companies sell soft braid without advice on lead size etc and why do many anglers advocate the use of large leads without advice on how to negate mouth damage. It can't just be me that is having this problem. so it must be that other carp anglers are just cracking on as they see it as part of the process, or are just not bothered. I hope it's neither, but fear the worst.
I know the rig you mean, and it is called 'the anchor rig'. If you note the part in my post about hookholds, I state that most of my hooks are in the bottom lip (although not 100% of the time), but I am still getting this mouth damage. From my own thoughts, and the great advice from other carp anglers, it seems that it may be the soft supple braid that I am using that causes the damage when the carp is making a bid for freedom, or when the 4oz or 5oz leads are banging / swinging around during the fight.
If this is the case, then why do carp companies sell soft braid without advice on lead size etc and why do many anglers advocate the use of large leads without advice on how to negate mouth damage. It can't just be me that is having this problem. so it must be that other carp anglers are just cracking on as they see it as part of the process, or are just not bothered. I hope it's neither, but fear the worst.
In reply to Post #22
In my post I describe that my hookholds are usually in the bottom lip, nut not always and indeed some are hooked in the scissors. I also mention that I am happy with my hookholds, as they stay planted wherever they find a hold and I am only losing 1 or 2 fish in say every hundred runs. Due to this, I don't think it's the hookholds that are causing the issue, as the damage seems to be occurring on one or both sides and sometimes on the opposite side to the hookhold.
Some of the fish are small stockies, but this is due to my club having an odd policy where they stock the smaller fish in with the bigger carp (even though some of these lakes have a smaller stock pond right next to them), so there is a mix of 2 or 3lb carp, lots of doubles and some high doubles and twenties. Most of the fish that I'm catching are suffering some mouth damage at the sides, but as you say the smaller fish do seem to be more affected.
However, it's not the hookhold that's causing the damage so it must be something else.
I fear that it's the supple braid in conjunction with the 4oz or 5oz lead, which I will change on my next trip out.
As I stated in a few of my other replies, I fear that this is not solely a problem for me, but one that is far and wide and the damage is just not being highlighted. In my opinion only, I think that lots of the end tackles that we are using are not as fish friendly as the media will have us believe, but that it is just something that is 'not talked about'.
It would be interesting to see if any brave carpies out there might raise their hand and say that they indeed suffer the same problem. I'm sure that I'm not the only one using 4oz or 5oz leads with short supple hooklinks - or am I ???
In my post I describe that my hookholds are usually in the bottom lip, nut not always and indeed some are hooked in the scissors. I also mention that I am happy with my hookholds, as they stay planted wherever they find a hold and I am only losing 1 or 2 fish in say every hundred runs. Due to this, I don't think it's the hookholds that are causing the issue, as the damage seems to be occurring on one or both sides and sometimes on the opposite side to the hookhold.
Some of the fish are small stockies, but this is due to my club having an odd policy where they stock the smaller fish in with the bigger carp (even though some of these lakes have a smaller stock pond right next to them), so there is a mix of 2 or 3lb carp, lots of doubles and some high doubles and twenties. Most of the fish that I'm catching are suffering some mouth damage at the sides, but as you say the smaller fish do seem to be more affected.
However, it's not the hookhold that's causing the damage so it must be something else.
I fear that it's the supple braid in conjunction with the 4oz or 5oz lead, which I will change on my next trip out.
As I stated in a few of my other replies, I fear that this is not solely a problem for me, but one that is far and wide and the damage is just not being highlighted. In my opinion only, I think that lots of the end tackles that we are using are not as fish friendly as the media will have us believe, but that it is just something that is 'not talked about'.
It would be interesting to see if any brave carpies out there might raise their hand and say that they indeed suffer the same problem. I'm sure that I'm not the only one using 4oz or 5oz leads with short supple hooklinks - or am I ???
In reply to Post #25
Is most of the damage new and mainly in the smaller fish? The smaller and younger the fish the weaker their mouths will be, with small fish (anything low doubles and smaller) and the gear you are using it's not surprising they are being damaged. Modern carp anglers use way too heavy rods, line and leads in such situations. I would be willing to bet that if you changed to leads under 2oz and 2 lb test curve rods you'd see far less, if any, mouth damage, you'd probably enjoy the fight more too.
A 4 - 5oz lead, bolt rig and tight line is just going to damage weak mouths all day long I'm afraid. Ditch the heavy tactics, even if you don't hook as many fish I'd rather do that than damage all the ones I do catch. I used a rig once that damaged the mouths of a couple of fish I caught, I immediately binned it and haven't ever used it again.
If the lake is silty rather than gravel bottomed this also leads to soft mouthed fish as they are never digging through gravel etc to feed.
It's probably a combination of things but you can certainly adapt your methods and gear to lessen the chances of it happening.
Is most of the damage new and mainly in the smaller fish? The smaller and younger the fish the weaker their mouths will be, with small fish (anything low doubles and smaller) and the gear you are using it's not surprising they are being damaged. Modern carp anglers use way too heavy rods, line and leads in such situations. I would be willing to bet that if you changed to leads under 2oz and 2 lb test curve rods you'd see far less, if any, mouth damage, you'd probably enjoy the fight more too.
A 4 - 5oz lead, bolt rig and tight line is just going to damage weak mouths all day long I'm afraid. Ditch the heavy tactics, even if you don't hook as many fish I'd rather do that than damage all the ones I do catch. I used a rig once that damaged the mouths of a couple of fish I caught, I immediately binned it and haven't ever used it again.
If the lake is silty rather than gravel bottomed this also leads to soft mouthed fish as they are never digging through gravel etc to feed.
It's probably a combination of things but you can certainly adapt your methods and gear to lessen the chances of it happening.
In reply to Post #25
I wouldn't use a 5oz lead and size 4 hook for single figure fish, that's for certain. These are juvenile fish with small, soft mouths. It's not necessary.
I wouldn't use a 5oz lead and size 4 hook for single figure fish, that's for certain. These are juvenile fish with small, soft mouths. It's not necessary.
Change your 'soft' 20lb cheese wire braided hooklink, to 30lb. Or use the braid from inside some heavier coated braid. It will make zero difference to the mechanics of your rig. The braid inside coated is never as soft as a purpose made hooklink braid.
It's not just your manufacturer, they all sell 15 & 20lb hook length braid that will be absolutely fine on a big old knarly carps mouth. But exactly the same stuff, in a lake with younger fish, or a lake which is silty (this causes soft mouths)... It will 'chelsea smile' them both sides in the scissors. When carp are feeding over a gravel bottom constantly, their mouths will be like leather and a lot tougher.
Silt feeders = soft mouths.
If you do not believe me, take a small bit of your braid, wet it, then put it onto a soft part of your skin on your hand... Give it a small pull backwards and forwards. The soft, thinner braids in 10,15 or 20lb will cut you badly like cheese wire if you try it. Unless, similar to the carp who feed over gravel, you work with your hands, and thus have hands like leather. If you do the same test on yourself with some 25, 30 or 35lb braid from inside some coated hooklink. It's thicker, and nowhere near as soft (when dry). You simply will not be able to cut yourself.
Think of it in the same way as casting with braid. With 30lb power pro or similar, you will have no problems. Try casting with a thinner casting braid. You will seriously cut your finger to bits if you do not use a finger stool.
It's not the 80's anymore. None of these companies should be selling thin hook link braids that can do this to a carps mouth. 25lb, 30lb or 35lb you will have no problems at all. It's all about the thickness, and to a lesser degree the softness of braids. But all the companies tend to sell a 10lb, a 15lb or a 20lb soft hooklink braid, which are far too thin to be used on carp with softer mouths, like the ones in your lake.
Change to 30 or 35lb braid. All of your problems will stop instantly.
It's not just your manufacturer, they all sell 15 & 20lb hook length braid that will be absolutely fine on a big old knarly carps mouth. But exactly the same stuff, in a lake with younger fish, or a lake which is silty (this causes soft mouths)... It will 'chelsea smile' them both sides in the scissors. When carp are feeding over a gravel bottom constantly, their mouths will be like leather and a lot tougher.
Silt feeders = soft mouths.
If you do not believe me, take a small bit of your braid, wet it, then put it onto a soft part of your skin on your hand... Give it a small pull backwards and forwards. The soft, thinner braids in 10,15 or 20lb will cut you badly like cheese wire if you try it. Unless, similar to the carp who feed over gravel, you work with your hands, and thus have hands like leather. If you do the same test on yourself with some 25, 30 or 35lb braid from inside some coated hooklink. It's thicker, and nowhere near as soft (when dry). You simply will not be able to cut yourself.
Think of it in the same way as casting with braid. With 30lb power pro or similar, you will have no problems. Try casting with a thinner casting braid. You will seriously cut your finger to bits if you do not use a finger stool.
It's not the 80's anymore. None of these companies should be selling thin hook link braids that can do this to a carps mouth. 25lb, 30lb or 35lb you will have no problems at all. It's all about the thickness, and to a lesser degree the softness of braids. But all the companies tend to sell a 10lb, a 15lb or a 20lb soft hooklink braid, which are far too thin to be used on carp with softer mouths, like the ones in your lake.
Change to 30 or 35lb braid. All of your problems will stop instantly.
In reply to Post #23
Even runs waters can have off years, or maybe the ones complaining simply aren't very good anglers? I'm not sure about your comment about anglers causing damage but not caring about it, I can't see that being the case on many places . Maybe on runs water type places, but you won't get many on here that fish those kinds of places with any sort of regularity if ever at all. A lot of the known anglers you refer to are fishing harder waters for older fish which generally have a lot tougher mouths, which therefore stand up to things like thin supple braids a lot better than younger fish, or ones that are very regularly caught leaving little time to heal properly. There are a lot of factors which could be causing the damage, but without knowing exactly what sort of places you are fishing and for what fish nobody can do any better than give you an educated guess really.
Even runs waters can have off years, or maybe the ones complaining simply aren't very good anglers? I'm not sure about your comment about anglers causing damage but not caring about it, I can't see that being the case on many places . Maybe on runs water type places, but you won't get many on here that fish those kinds of places with any sort of regularity if ever at all. A lot of the known anglers you refer to are fishing harder waters for older fish which generally have a lot tougher mouths, which therefore stand up to things like thin supple braids a lot better than younger fish, or ones that are very regularly caught leaving little time to heal properly. There are a lot of factors which could be causing the damage, but without knowing exactly what sort of places you are fishing and for what fish nobody can do any better than give you an educated guess really.
In reply to Post #26
Hi there, no, the damage is not mainly in the smaller fish, but I understand what you are saying about younger fish and weaker mouths.
I think that your statement about heavy gear is fair, but slightly flawed in this instance, as if you read through my post you will see that I play the fish very lightly and only apply pressure if the carp are making a bid for freedom into snags and reeds. Generally I let them plod around gently under the rod tip until they are tired enough to be drawn over the landing net cord without any unnecessary pressure. I have considered using lighter rods, but the trouble is that the particular lakes that I am fishing at the moment are run by a club and unfortunately they take very little interest in the lakes on their books. By this, I mean that there are so many overhanging trees, snags in the water and read beds that have grown out of control, that if you were to use 2lb test curve rods, you would more than likely end up with every other run making it into some kind of snag or sanctuary. I think that losing a fish in this way could be far more detrimental to the fish' welfare than landing them on slightly heavier gear. I think the lighter gear approach would mean losing more fish in the lilies and the snags than are being landed. This is obviously not good for the fish, as trailing line, leads and what not is far from ideal.
I think the lighter lead as you suggested is a good idea and I will try this on my next trip out, but the club rules are that if you are fishing for carp then you must use a minimum of 15lb breaking strain !!! I would prefer to use 2lb test curve rods and 10lb line if I'm honest, but as above I can see this causing a whole new set of issues.
Your reply has sparked a thought in my little brain though. The club that runs the lake (this particular lake is gravelly not silty) has recently stocked (in the last 3 months) 1000 smaller fish. The lake used to be predominantly carp between say 9lb and 24lb. This has meant that lots of the smaller fish are getting caught whilst waiting for a run from their heavier and older counterparts. This stocking has messed up equilibrium of the carp stocks and made fishing this particular lake more of a challenge to winkle out the bigger specimens. So if you fish light, you will catch lots of smaller carp and I agree there will be less, if any, damage. However, if you latch into a bigger specimen, due to the snags etc you risk losing the fish due to being undergunned and unable to stop the runs and lunges into the snags / trees / reeds in their bid for freedom. I think that I have come to the conclusion that I will ditch this lake and move on elsewhere and leave them to it, as it seems that this stocking has produced an unsolvable quandary that I no longer wish to be involved in.
Hi there, no, the damage is not mainly in the smaller fish, but I understand what you are saying about younger fish and weaker mouths.
I think that your statement about heavy gear is fair, but slightly flawed in this instance, as if you read through my post you will see that I play the fish very lightly and only apply pressure if the carp are making a bid for freedom into snags and reeds. Generally I let them plod around gently under the rod tip until they are tired enough to be drawn over the landing net cord without any unnecessary pressure. I have considered using lighter rods, but the trouble is that the particular lakes that I am fishing at the moment are run by a club and unfortunately they take very little interest in the lakes on their books. By this, I mean that there are so many overhanging trees, snags in the water and read beds that have grown out of control, that if you were to use 2lb test curve rods, you would more than likely end up with every other run making it into some kind of snag or sanctuary. I think that losing a fish in this way could be far more detrimental to the fish' welfare than landing them on slightly heavier gear. I think the lighter gear approach would mean losing more fish in the lilies and the snags than are being landed. This is obviously not good for the fish, as trailing line, leads and what not is far from ideal.
I think the lighter lead as you suggested is a good idea and I will try this on my next trip out, but the club rules are that if you are fishing for carp then you must use a minimum of 15lb breaking strain !!! I would prefer to use 2lb test curve rods and 10lb line if I'm honest, but as above I can see this causing a whole new set of issues.
Your reply has sparked a thought in my little brain though. The club that runs the lake (this particular lake is gravelly not silty) has recently stocked (in the last 3 months) 1000 smaller fish. The lake used to be predominantly carp between say 9lb and 24lb. This has meant that lots of the smaller fish are getting caught whilst waiting for a run from their heavier and older counterparts. This stocking has messed up equilibrium of the carp stocks and made fishing this particular lake more of a challenge to winkle out the bigger specimens. So if you fish light, you will catch lots of smaller carp and I agree there will be less, if any, damage. However, if you latch into a bigger specimen, due to the snags etc you risk losing the fish due to being undergunned and unable to stop the runs and lunges into the snags / trees / reeds in their bid for freedom. I think that I have come to the conclusion that I will ditch this lake and move on elsewhere and leave them to it, as it seems that this stocking has produced an unsolvable quandary that I no longer wish to be involved in.