In reply to Post #14
Hi GB,
I presume it means it is 94% digestible period, whatever eats it.
BB.
Hi GB,
I presume it means it is 94% digestible period, whatever eats it.
BB.
In reply to Post #15
Hi razorback,
I actually think the opposite is the case.
Giving them a nutritionally balanced bait that is easily digested will do them good, give them energy and soon pass through them and get them looking for more.
I think it is the poorly constructed, unbalanced bail that sticks in their craw that leads them to sit in snags for days trying to digest it.
BB.
Hi razorback,
I actually think the opposite is the case.
Giving them a nutritionally balanced bait that is easily digested will do them good, give them energy and soon pass through them and get them looking for more.
I think it is the poorly constructed, unbalanced bail that sticks in their craw that leads them to sit in snags for days trying to digest it.
BB.
In reply to Post #17
Hi BB
I am not talking about a mix that locks them up. I am talking about a mix which has reasonable nutrition but goes straight through them
It might also be one that they like eating too.
Any unused bait still contain nutrients they can't use would have wider benefit also.. non?
Hi BB
I am not talking about a mix that locks them up. I am talking about a mix which has reasonable nutrition but goes straight through them
It might also be one that they like eating too.
Any unused bait still contain nutrients they can't use would have wider benefit also.. non?
In reply to Post #18
Hi razorback,
Attraction is somewhat of a separate issue and I have been led to believe that a highly attractive bait can be not the most nutritious.
However, on this thread, I have tried to answer the questions asked on nutrition.
BB.
Hi razorback,
Attraction is somewhat of a separate issue and I have been led to believe that a highly attractive bait can be not the most nutritious.
However, on this thread, I have tried to answer the questions asked on nutrition.
BB.
In reply to Post #19
Thanks for your contribution..👍👍
I have been led to believe that a highly attractive bait can be not the most nutritious
.....and the negative in that is?? From an alternative perspective..
Thanks for your contribution..👍👍
I have been led to believe that a highly attractive bait can be not the most nutritious
.....and the negative in that is?? From an alternative perspective..
In reply to Post #20
Hi razorback,
Thanks for the appreciation.
I'll try and word it better.
I've been led to believe that a highly attractive bait can be made that doesn't fulfill the full nutrition requirement and addresses FLAA.
Although, I would try and do both, because I don't like the thought of the protein not being fully utilised.
Off to bed now to get some zeds.
Night night,
BB.
Hi razorback,
Thanks for the appreciation.
I'll try and word it better.
I've been led to believe that a highly attractive bait can be made that doesn't fulfill the full nutrition requirement and addresses FLAA.
Although, I would try and do both, because I don't like the thought of the protein not being fully utilised.
Off to bed now to get some zeds.
Night night,
BB.
Interesting thread with good contributions and no mud slinging!
In terms of bait for cold water it is often touted that we should drop fishmeals etc due to oil content and go to a nut bait for example with milk powder etc.
Due to poor digestion of oil in cold temps this has always been contradictory when you consider that the sack of Provimi I was looking at yesterday had an oil content of 6.8% whereas the milk powder next to it was 22% and nuts would certainly be higher than that. In my experience a well balanced fishmeal which covers FLAA and is not too high in oil will produce more than the accepted winter baits do. Anyone else have this experience?
In terms of bait for cold water it is often touted that we should drop fishmeals etc due to oil content and go to a nut bait for example with milk powder etc.
Due to poor digestion of oil in cold temps this has always been contradictory when you consider that the sack of Provimi I was looking at yesterday had an oil content of 6.8% whereas the milk powder next to it was 22% and nuts would certainly be higher than that. In my experience a well balanced fishmeal which covers FLAA and is not too high in oil will produce more than the accepted winter baits do. Anyone else have this experience?
In reply to Post #22
Hi CC,
On the B/F, Pete B listed his standard mix, which has a fishmeal main protein and which many of the members used. He was asked whether he would change anything for winter fishing, and he replied no, and that the bait would work just as well in cold water.
BB.
Hi CC,
On the B/F, Pete B listed his standard mix, which has a fishmeal main protein and which many of the members used. He was asked whether he would change anything for winter fishing, and he replied no, and that the bait would work just as well in cold water.
BB.
In reply to Post #23
Yep, no coincidence that I use that mix (or a slight variation on it) for both summer and winter. Of course I catch less in winter due to the decreased metabolism of the carp in cold water but it has never crossed my mind to alter the bait's composition for summer/winter use. I get that people do like to change but also like to point out that their reason for doing so is flawed.
Yep, no coincidence that I use that mix (or a slight variation on it) for both summer and winter. Of course I catch less in winter due to the decreased metabolism of the carp in cold water but it has never crossed my mind to alter the bait's composition for summer/winter use. I get that people do like to change but also like to point out that their reason for doing so is flawed.
I would like to add my view regarding both FLAA and winter baits....
With regards to FLAA the theory is interesting but I have ignored it, as I would suggest have most commercial bait companies and there have been probably millions of carp caught on their baits plus the odd one or two on my own. It is quite possible to formulate a very attractive and nutritious bait with out considering it. Carp binge on what is available be that snails, bloodworm, etc without a single thought on whether they provide a full amino profile, and they treat our baits exactly the same.
It's all very good in a laboratory but in the real world the carp do not eat a single foodstuff and there will be so many different varieties of boilie eaten how could we possibly know which is the limiting amino acid.
With regards to winter baits, I think this relates to the original post, as cold water creatures the carp's metabolism will be different (slower?) in the winter so why shouldn't a different bait type be better at this time of year. They probably can't digest food as well as in the summer so baits that pass through them easily in the summer might not in the winter.
Most birdfood baits and even nut baits, commercially available are generally low in protein and there can be no denying that it is these types of bait have historically been the most successful winter baits, eg nutabaits enervite, Nash amber attract and of course mainlines cell.
I need to make sure I have as much as possible in my favour especially in the winter and my advice is don't take a chance come up with a birdfood bait relatively low in protein and if you must use fishmeal stick to the predigested variety as they are far more soluble.
With regards to FLAA the theory is interesting but I have ignored it, as I would suggest have most commercial bait companies and there have been probably millions of carp caught on their baits plus the odd one or two on my own. It is quite possible to formulate a very attractive and nutritious bait with out considering it. Carp binge on what is available be that snails, bloodworm, etc without a single thought on whether they provide a full amino profile, and they treat our baits exactly the same.
It's all very good in a laboratory but in the real world the carp do not eat a single foodstuff and there will be so many different varieties of boilie eaten how could we possibly know which is the limiting amino acid.
With regards to winter baits, I think this relates to the original post, as cold water creatures the carp's metabolism will be different (slower?) in the winter so why shouldn't a different bait type be better at this time of year. They probably can't digest food as well as in the summer so baits that pass through them easily in the summer might not in the winter.
Most birdfood baits and even nut baits, commercially available are generally low in protein and there can be no denying that it is these types of bait have historically been the most successful winter baits, eg nutabaits enervite, Nash amber attract and of course mainlines cell.
I need to make sure I have as much as possible in my favour especially in the winter and my advice is don't take a chance come up with a birdfood bait relatively low in protein and if you must use fishmeal stick to the predigested variety as they are far more soluble.
In reply to Post #24
ABS have been telling their customers not to change off the hydra k for winter, I know that, and that backs up this argment nicely. Definitely a nicely put together bait that.
ABS have been telling their customers not to change off the hydra k for winter, I know that, and that backs up this argment nicely. Definitely a nicely put together bait that.
FLAA is not about fish attraction. You can make a bait that is very digestible and have high attraction..
A well balanced bait, with attention given to the details such as FLAA and vitamin and mineral content, will be good for the carp. A healthy carp will grow more and feed more often so you have a better chance of catching a bigger fish. You also have the knowledge that you are doing everything you can to look after the carp.
Undigested bait will lead to poor water quality but a balanced bait will benefit the fish and the fishing
A well balanced bait, with attention given to the details such as FLAA and vitamin and mineral content, will be good for the carp. A healthy carp will grow more and feed more often so you have a better chance of catching a bigger fish. You also have the knowledge that you are doing everything you can to look after the carp.
Undigested bait will lead to poor water quality but a balanced bait will benefit the fish and the fishing
In reply to Post #27
Somebody is going to have to please explain to me the link between FLAA and digestibility as I don't get it, most of the AA's in our baits are in the form off the original protein or in peptides in pre-digested ingredients. How easy these are broken down I can understand as how digestible a bait might be. But even this only addresses the digestibility of the protein which might only account for 30-40% of the best baits. The digestibility of the oils and carbohydrates surely has to be taken into account in the overall digestibility.
And, as I stated previously in winter the carp's metabolism will be much slower than in the summer so the breakdown of the bait will be slower. This is why we use less bait in winter, but its not beyond possibility that we could use more if we reduced the nutritional ingredients of our baits and reduce the strain on the carps digestive tract.
Somebody is going to have to please explain to me the link between FLAA and digestibility as I don't get it, most of the AA's in our baits are in the form off the original protein or in peptides in pre-digested ingredients. How easy these are broken down I can understand as how digestible a bait might be. But even this only addresses the digestibility of the protein which might only account for 30-40% of the best baits. The digestibility of the oils and carbohydrates surely has to be taken into account in the overall digestibility.
And, as I stated previously in winter the carp's metabolism will be much slower than in the summer so the breakdown of the bait will be slower. This is why we use less bait in winter, but its not beyond possibility that we could use more if we reduced the nutritional ingredients of our baits and reduce the strain on the carps digestive tract.
In reply to Post #28
A good mix of a quality lt fishmeal, soluble quality milk protein, active yeast, some good attractors and a lysine rich liquid combined with a good flavour combo has been catching me carp for about 30 years now. Trouble is this mix costs a fair dollar these days and Therein lies the problem.......it ain't 5 quid a kilo anymore!!
If in doubt try a maggot
A good mix of a quality lt fishmeal, soluble quality milk protein, active yeast, some good attractors and a lysine rich liquid combined with a good flavour combo has been catching me carp for about 30 years now. Trouble is this mix costs a fair dollar these days and Therein lies the problem.......it ain't 5 quid a kilo anymore!!
If in doubt try a maggot
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